Comments on: Keller Endorses Clark http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/ Faith and Practice Fri, 03 Sep 2010 02:48:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: The Problem of Evil | CloudofSteam http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-5113 The Problem of Evil | CloudofSteam Sat, 23 Jan 2010 03:57:53 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-5113 [...] discussed his book The Reason for God on The White Horse Inn on 1 November 2009. As well as raising a few eyebrows in surprise with his endorsement of liturgy, he tackled a number of major points of opposition to Christianity. [...] [...] discussed his book The Reason for God on The White Horse Inn on 1 November 2009. As well as raising a few eyebrows in surprise with his endorsement of liturgy, he tackled a number of major points of opposition to Christianity. [...]

]]> By: dgh http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3629 dgh Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:44:54 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3629 There's polemics and then there's your definition of polemics which seems to have a high regard for a style that is not polemical. Fine, do what you will with polemics. But I'm not sure you can have your cake (Keller) and eat it too (Hodge, Machen, and Murray). There’s polemics and then there’s your definition of polemics which seems to have a high regard for a style that is not polemical. Fine, do what you will with polemics. But I’m not sure you can have your cake (Keller) and eat it too (Hodge, Machen, and Murray).

]]> By: Sullivan http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3628 Sullivan Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:29:16 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3628 DGH: There is polemics and then there is polemics. It's not the doing of polemics that is the issue here, but the way they are done. I have always had great respect for the polemics of Machen, Hodge and Murray. They were unfailignly courteous and respectful. They did not engage in snarky scarcasm or ridicule of their debate partners, publicly or privately. They chose their battles carefully and strategically. They did not shoot of sparks for the sake of being provocatuers. They represented accurately the views of those with whom they disagreed. Those who knew Mr. Murray describe him as a remarkably gracious man in manner and speech, as you probably are aware. Further, their polemics were in keeping with the sylistic conventions of their day and conducted with due regard for the prevailing sensibilities of their day. The same can't be said for many TRs today. We Reformed could be far more effective in advancing and defending the Reformed faith if we took cognizance of common grace ideas of persuasion techniques, which, among things, involve projecting what many Reformed TRs ridicule, "niceness." It is possible to be gracious and polemical, as evidenced by those who accomplish this. I have significant differences with Tim Keller on theology, ethos, and piety. But I have to give him high marks for his irenic approach. He is effective because he is irenic and courteous. His style works, and more importantly, it is befitting a Christian, especially a Christian with a high view of grace. DGH: There is polemics and then there is polemics. It’s not the doing of polemics that is the issue here, but the way they are done. I have always had great respect for the polemics of Machen, Hodge and Murray. They were unfailignly courteous and respectful. They did not engage in snarky scarcasm or ridicule of their debate partners, publicly or privately. They chose their battles carefully and strategically. They did not shoot of sparks for the sake of being provocatuers. They represented accurately the views of those with whom they disagreed. Those who knew Mr. Murray describe him as a remarkably gracious man in manner and speech, as you probably are aware. Further, their polemics were in keeping with the sylistic conventions of their day and conducted with due regard for the prevailing sensibilities of their day. The same can’t be said for many TRs today.

We Reformed could be far more effective in advancing and defending the Reformed faith if we took cognizance of common grace ideas of persuasion techniques, which, among things, involve projecting what many Reformed TRs ridicule, “niceness.” It is possible to be gracious and polemical, as evidenced by those who accomplish this. I have significant differences with Tim Keller on theology, ethos, and piety. But I have to give him high marks for his irenic approach. He is effective because he is irenic and courteous. His style works, and more importantly, it is befitting a Christian, especially a Christian with a high view of grace.

]]> By: dgh http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3627 dgh Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:24:45 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3627 Mr. Stager, so it's a form of polemics to put Presbyterian on your sign or letterhead? I actually like the kind of polemics in which Mr. Murray, Machen, and Hodge engaged. Your position would seem to be that they were wrong to engage in polemics for the sake of the Reformed faith. Sullivan: I know of some folks in the Church of Scotland and at WTS who would have liked Dr. Ferguson to be a tad more polemical in the form of Mr. Murray. Sorry, but I'm a guy who studied too much Machen and saw what happened when folks didn't "fly the Reformed banner high." I mean, plenty of "nice" people communed in the PCUSA. Mr. Stager, so it’s a form of polemics to put Presbyterian on your sign or letterhead? I actually like the kind of polemics in which Mr. Murray, Machen, and Hodge engaged. Your position would seem to be that they were wrong to engage in polemics for the sake of the Reformed faith.

Sullivan: I know of some folks in the Church of Scotland and at WTS who would have liked Dr. Ferguson to be a tad more polemical in the form of Mr. Murray. Sorry, but I’m a guy who studied too much Machen and saw what happened when folks didn’t “fly the Reformed banner high.” I mean, plenty of “nice” people communed in the PCUSA.

]]> By: Sullivan http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3625 Sullivan Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:32:10 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3625 Rev. Stager: I wanted to commend your commitment to a more irenic Reformed ethos and public face. Dr. Ferguson is indeed a wonderful role model. He is stoutly Reformed in his theology and practice, but eschews the kind of harsh rhetoric that abounds among some of us TRs, especially in the fever swamps of Reformed blogs. Ironically, the mean-spirited polemicists don't see that their tone undercuts the effectiveness and reach of their own arguments. They speak to one another in an echo chamber. They have little or no influence outside of that chamber, other than a negative influence. By contrast, five minutes of the kind of irenic and positive presentation made by a godly man like Dr. Ferguson is ultimately more persuasive and effective than all the angry rants put together. I'm grateful that there are many such men as Dr. Ferguson in the Reformed camp. Another wonderful example of an irenic, Reformed voice and face is Dr. Dennis Johnson of WSC and, near and dear to two kingdoms enthusiasts, Dr. David VanDrunen, an eloquent and learned advocate and defender of two kingdoms theology. Dr. VanDrunen exemplifies how to engage in polemics with those with whom he disagrees in an irenic, respectful, peaceful fashion. His tone is always respectful and adult. Notably, you don't find him engaging in polemical rants on blogs in stentorian tones with strident rhetoric. His argumentative pieces are all the more effective for that. I encourage those who aspire to be polemists in the good sense to model Johnson and VanDrunen. Rev. Stager: I wanted to commend your commitment to a more irenic Reformed ethos and public face. Dr. Ferguson is indeed a wonderful role model. He is stoutly Reformed in his theology and practice, but eschews the kind of harsh rhetoric that abounds among some of us TRs, especially in the fever swamps of Reformed blogs. Ironically, the mean-spirited polemicists don’t see that their tone undercuts the effectiveness and reach of their own arguments. They speak to one another in an echo chamber. They have little or no influence outside of that chamber, other than a negative influence. By contrast, five minutes of the kind of irenic and positive presentation made by a godly man like Dr. Ferguson is ultimately more persuasive and effective than all the angry rants put together. I’m grateful that there are many such men as Dr. Ferguson in the Reformed camp. Another wonderful example of an irenic, Reformed voice and face is Dr. Dennis Johnson of WSC and, near and dear to two kingdoms enthusiasts, Dr. David VanDrunen, an eloquent and learned advocate and defender of two kingdoms theology. Dr. VanDrunen exemplifies how to engage in polemics with those with whom he disagrees in an irenic, respectful, peaceful fashion. His tone is always respectful and adult. Notably, you don’t find him engaging in polemical rants on blogs in stentorian tones with strident rhetoric. His argumentative pieces are all the more effective for that. I encourage those who aspire to be polemists in the good sense to model Johnson and VanDrunen.

]]> By: Casey http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3610 Casey Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:41:13 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3610 I agree Darryl, there is as much obsession coming from the other side. Had I found you quoting and confirming Keller one post after another, I would have just thought of you as a clone, which is far worse than an obsessed critic. So I'll tip my hat to you in at least being original. Pint or no pint, I think we can sharpen up a bit and pursue edication, just as we seek to glorify God in all that we do. Regarding Keller and Hybels, I appreciated Kellers irenic approach. Keller has consistently utilized the typologist method (which I appreciated in Niebuhr and see Frame doing as well) which utilizes a hermeneutic of appreciation before a hermeneutic of critique. Keller could have offered more criticism but isn't that what everyone was doing? So to quote Niebuhr, "The typologist needs to remember that he is not constructing a value scale. His enterprise is directed toward neither explanation nor evaluation, but toward understanding and appreciation. . . . [The typologist] will belong to one of the types, himself and will have a preference for it; but one purpose of typology is that of helping him understand his own type as one of many and so to achieve some measure of disinterestedness." I agree Darryl, there is as much obsession coming from the other side. Had I found you quoting and confirming Keller one post after another, I would have just thought of you as a clone, which is far worse than an obsessed critic. So I’ll tip my hat to you in at least being original.

Pint or no pint, I think we can sharpen up a bit and pursue edication, just as we seek to glorify God in all that we do.

Regarding Keller and Hybels, I appreciated Kellers irenic approach. Keller has consistently utilized the typologist method (which I appreciated in Niebuhr and see Frame doing as well) which utilizes a hermeneutic of appreciation before a hermeneutic of critique. Keller could have offered more criticism but isn’t that what everyone was doing?

So to quote Niebuhr, “The typologist needs to remember that he is not constructing a value scale. His enterprise is directed toward neither explanation nor evaluation, but toward understanding and appreciation. . . . [The typologist] will belong to one of the types, himself and will have a preference for it; but one purpose of typology is that of helping him understand his own type as one of many and so to achieve some measure of disinterestedness.”

]]> By: Nick Mackison http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3609 Nick Mackison Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:04:12 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3609 LOL! LOL!

]]> By: dgh http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3608 dgh Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:39:32 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3608 Banner of Truth? Banner of Truth?

]]> By: Nick Mackison http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3607 Nick Mackison Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:38:20 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3607 PS, what do you get when you cross a Calvinist with a Methodist? PS, what do you get when you cross a Calvinist with a Methodist?

]]> By: Nick Mackison http://oldlife.org/2009/11/21/keller-endorses-clark/comment-page-1/#comment-3606 Nick Mackison Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:37:34 +0000 http://oldlife.org/?p=253#comment-3606 Stern stuff? We're rock hard. Just look at Rowan Williams. That dude has a face like flint. Stern stuff? We’re rock hard. Just look at Rowan Williams. That dude has a face like flint.

]]>