I Loved “The Artist” because Jesus Made It

Well, technically, Jesus was not the director, producer, or screen writer. But he is the creator of all things and he did produce the remarkably clever creators of “The Artist.” It is particularly good at evoking the early period of Hollywood — the time of the silents — and how radical the shift was to talkies. At the same time, it shows how charming those silent films were, even in suggesting the genre may have life in it still.

The reason for bringing Jesus into my enjoyment of “The Artist” is simply to remind the those who want Christian piety to be always visible and earnest that the joy — see, I can say it — that believers experience at the movies need not be in competition with their trust in Christ or desire to glorify him. John Piper has a post about Christians who take more pleasure than they should in movies:

What should you do if you know someone who seems to be more excited about movies than Jesus?

Many professing Christians give little evidence of valuing Jesus more than the latest movie they have seen. Or the latest clothing they bought. Or the latest app they downloaded. Or the latest game they watched. Something is amiss.

We are not God and cannot judge with certainty and precision what’s wrong. There is a glitch somewhere. Perhaps a blindness going in, a spiritual deadness at heart, or a blockage coming out. Or some combination. Christ doesn’t appear supremely valuable. Or isn’t felt as supremely valuable. Or can’t be spoken of as supremely valuable. Or some combination.

One important weakness in Piper’s point is that he begins with the word, “seems.” The great problem with the piety he promotes is that none of us can see into the heart so that every display of piety, from raised hands and psalm singing to sermon listening and eating the bread of the Lord’s Supper, only seems to be indicative of an inward reality. The joy that members of Bethlehem Baptist exude is not inherently more reliable a guide to genuine devotion than the Orthodox Presbyterian who memorizes the catechism.

But the bigger problem is that Piper does not seem to acknowledge that joy may take different forms. I was incredibly happy when the Phillies won in 2008. I was feeling much more energized that October night than any time I have left a church service. Did that indicate that I took more joy from the Phillies than I do from Christ? Maybe, and if I continue to wear my Brad Lidge long-sleeve T-shirt to worship the elders may need to pay a visit. But sometimes ephemeral pleasures produce intense experiences of joy. Eventually, those emotions fade and recede in importance compared to the ongoing and deeper joy a believer experiences in the week-in-week-out attendance on the means of grace. In other words, celebration is not joy and that distinction would have gone a long way to deciding the worship wars (that Piper’s piety unwittingly abets through an earnestness that rarely distinguishes between excitement and joy).

I would bet that Piper himself even knows this difference even if he does not talk about it. I suspect that he was remarkably joyful when his first child walked, or better, said, “daddy.” Was he at that point more excited about the love of a child than his love for Jesus? To an observer it might seem so. But to an Old Lifer, who knows that all of life is a gift of God, and that temporal joys are good but not ultimately great, Piper’s delight in a child’s development would not qualify as a sign of infidelity. To set up such a competition — the more you delight in aspects of human existence, the less you love Christ — is to take the joy out of life. How sad.

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117 Comments

  1. mark mcculley
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 5:43 am | Permalink

    John Calvin 3:18: 4—”Let us not suppose, then, that the Holy Spirit, by this promise, commends the dignity of our works, as if they were deserving of such a reward. For Scripture leaves us nothing of which we may glory in the sight of God. Nay, rather its whole object is to repress, humble, cast down, and completely crush our pride.

    But help is given to our weakness, which would immediately give way were it not sustained by this expectation, and soothed by this comfort. First, let every man reflect for himself how hard it is not only to leave all things, but to leave and abjure one’s self. And yet this is the training by which Christ initiates his disciples, that is, all the godly. Secondly, he thus keeps them all their lifetime under the
    discipline of the cross, lest they should allow their heart to long for or confide in present good. In short, his treatment is usually such, that wherever they turn their eyes, as far as this world
    extends, they see nothing before them but despair; and hence Paul says “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable,” (1 Cor. 15:19).

    That they may not fail in these great straits, the Lord is present reminding them to lift their head higher and extend their view farther, that in him they may find a happiness which they see not in the world. To this happiness he gives the name of reward, not as estimating the merit of works, but
    intimating that it is a compensation for their straits, sufferings, and affronts.

    The Lord brings his people from labour to quiet, from affliction to a prosperous and desirable condition, from sorrow to joy, from poverty to affluence, from ignominy to glory; in short, exchanges all the evils which they endured for blessings.”

  2. David Yoder
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 5:55 am | Permalink

    Having had to struggle many years with guilty feelings and continual self chastisement about not being more excited about all things spiritual, I realized this was just one step away from works-righteousness. The Spirit produces joy in the Christian life; comparing this joy to other pleasures and attempting to manufacture these emotions artificially will suck any real joy out of you. Been there, done that, not willing to go back.

  3. Aron
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    This emphasis of “Christian Hedonism” seems almost Gnostic.
    There’s an interesting exchange between (don’t throw things at me) Piper and Wilson about Wilson’s statement that “God is most glorified in me when I love what he has given to me, for its own sake.” here at about 1:15:22 (I skipped to it). The detailed intricacies of the whole question seem to border on the ridiculous, but I think Wilson makes the better point.
    Another helpful point was made on a recent WHI where someone (“Dad Rod?”) pointed out that when Jesus talks of commending his disciples for “feeding and clothing the least of these,” the disciples were confused: “…when did we do that?” The implication being, they were aiming at their neighbors as their neighbors – they weren’t aiming past them to Christ (HT: Big Kahuna).

  4. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    D.G. Hart: The joy that members of Bethlehem Baptist exude is not inherently more reliable a guide to genuine devotion than the Orthodox Presbyterian who memorizes the catechism.

    RS: That depends on whether it is the Shorter or Larger Catechism.

    D.G. Hart: But the bigger problem is that Piper does not seem to acknowledge that joy may take different forms. I was incredibly happy when the Phillies won in 2008. I was feeling much more energized that October night than any time I have left a church service. Did that indicate that I took more joy from the Phillies than I do from Christ?

    RS: But it is an indication that while you see what Piper is saying, you continue not to see what Edwards really said. The “feeling” you had when that no-good Phillies team won in 2008 was simply nothing more than the “animal spirits.” True joy that is a true spiritual affection is the very joy of the Spirit Himself who shares His delight in the Son and in the Father with human beings.

    D.G. Hart: Maybe, and if I continue to wear my Brad Lidge long-sleeve T-shirt to worship the elders may need to pay a visit. But sometimes ephemeral pleasures produce intense experiences of joy.

    RS: Or perhaps, just intense experiences.

    D.G. Hart: Eventually, those emotions fade and recede in importance compared to the ongoing and deeper joy a believer experiences in the week-in-week-out attendance on the means of grace. In other words, celebration is not joy and that distinction would have gone a long way to deciding the worship wars (that Piper’s piety unwittingly abets through an earnestness that rarely distinguishes between excitement and joy).

    RS: I hope it does not get you too angry, but I would agree that Piper seems to be confused on the distinction between excitement and joy. However, if the Phillies had lost in 2008, would you have had an almost intense sense of disappointment? If so, then why is it so hard to believe that God can open a person’s soul to see something of the wrath to come and give that person an intense sense of fear of His wrath to come? If you can have an intense feeling of excitement at the Phillies winning in 2008, then why is it so hard to believe that God can give people (as He pleases) a sight of His beauties and glories in the face of Christ that would erupt in some intense joy or excitement? Why do spiritual things have to always be wearying and sober? Reverent and in awe, yes and amen.

  5. Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Richard, and why can’t you see that experiences are fleeting, that faculty psychology (emotions, affections, feelings, the will) are all speculative, and that Edwards house is built on quicksand? Just asking.

  6. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    D. G. Hart: Richard, and why can’t you see that experiences are fleeting, that faculty psychology (emotions, affections, feelings, the will) are all speculative, and that Edwards house is built on quicksand? Just asking.

    RS: Experiences are fleeting, but the experience of the soul is not. Again, I am using “experience” to refer to the practice of the soul. A doctor has a practice and practices medicine. A doctor has experiences that are fleeting, some as absurd of being happy or intense happiness at world series victories, but the practice of medicine builds and builds and the doctor becomes good and as such a skilled practitioner. The soul has experiences that are fleeting, but that is a far different thing than that of the soul being experienced in the things of God. The experimental Christian is one that believes that Christ is in the soul and this person is learning how to walk with Christ.

    The affections, desires, loves and joys of the one that has Christ and are worked in the soul by Christ are not as fleeting as experiences in the sense that you use them. Christ is the life of the soul and His joy becomes the joy of the believer. The joy of Christ and the joy of the Spirit are not fleeting things that are build on quicksand, but instead are built on the everlasting blessedness of God Himself.

    I am convinced that Edwards built his views on the solid rock of the character of God and of His revelation. God lives in perfect, infinite, and unchanging joy. He is able to work these things in His people as He pleases. Human beings are promised to be able to become participants in the divine nature (II Peter 1:4). Jesus prayed for His joy to be in His people and that their joy would be made full. I know that sounds like Piper, but please don’t think of Piper as being a good interpreter of Edwards and hear what he said and what I am trying to say through the lense of Piper. The greatest and most exquisite joy, according to Edwards, is not the loud joy and cannot even be expressed in words. Yes, that is speculation as such, but it shows that perhaps he was not as concerned about all the excitement that Piper is. Edwards was for a joy that was full of glory and came as a result of beholding the glory of God, but he was would not have been a fan of the things that are being used to get all the excitement up that we see today.

    I know that you think I read the Bible through the lense of Edwards, and I cannot totally disagree with that. We are all shaped by what we have read and the things that have happened to us. However, if you or others read or think of Edwards through the lense of Piper, I think you are getting a wrong idea of him and of his teachings.

  7. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    David Yoder: Having had to struggle many years with guilty feelings and continual self chastisement about not being more excited about all things spiritual, I realized this was just one step away from works-righteousness. The Spirit produces joy in the Christian life; comparing this joy to other pleasures and attempting to manufacture these emotions artificially will suck any real joy out of you. Been there, done that, not willing to go back.

    RS: Yes, you are very, very right on this. True joy and every degree of it is in the hands of our sovereign God who gives it by grace alone. All work from us to try to produce it by our own efforts is a failure to realize the nature of true joy and grace and indeed this very effort to attain them will suck true joy out as grace will not stand with merit. On the other hand, those on the other side of this from me must also realize that efforts to obtain grace through the sacraments can have the same result. Some work to obtain the grace of joy by their own efforts to obtain or work up feelings, but others also try to obtain the grace of joy by their work of taking the sacraments.

  8. DJ
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Richard – I don’t know of anyone that tries to “obtain the grace of joy” while taking the sacraments! You’re missing the whole point. Old Lifers aren’t chasing after joy. That’s at SGM and Bethlehem Bapt. No, we come to Christ as beggars, and he graciously gives us grace through Word and Sacrament ministry week after week. Sometimes this brings joy and a spring in our step. Often times it simply keeps us persevering one more week.

    You tipped your hand and showed your cards with that statement. You turn the Christian life into nothing but a pursuit of joy, and you lay a burden on souls that they can’t carry. That’s a shame.

  9. DJ
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    MM – You can quote Calvin all you want. However, I don’t think he was wearing Edwards’ and Piper’s sunglasses.

  10. Posted February 21, 2012 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Another way to understand Piper’s comments is that he seems to think that the difference between valuing Christ and valuing a movie is one of degree, i.e. that all of our valuations are on a kind of continuum and we can properly, and easily rank them all with Christ at the top. I am not sure this is true but that instead the valuations are matters of kind. I think Paul is explicitly dissuading us in I Corinthians 2.9 from holding that the joys of life with Christ will be of the same kind as present joys but only more intense, big, etc. If our love of Christ, as divinely given and nurtured, is different in kind from our love of other things, then comparative valuations would be meangingless. Any thoughts?

  11. Armand
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Dr. Hart,

    Great Post!

    I’m reminded of the early church confusion that rejected the wholesome enjoyment of marriage intimacy because it was indulging the flesh, which had to be sinful. Is Piper reverting to this sort of thinking (which even smacks of anti-Edwardsian)?! I know that retro is cool today, but I’d rather stick to a theology that glorifies God in the marriage bed.

  12. Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    So is the OPC singing a cappella when they sing Psalm 150?

  13. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    DJ: Richard – I don’t know of anyone that tries to “obtain the grace of joy” while taking the sacraments! You’re missing the whole point. Old Lifers aren’t chasing after joy. That’s at SGM and Bethlehem Bapt. No, we come to Christ as beggars, and he graciously gives us grace through Word and Sacrament ministry week after week. Sometimes this brings joy and a spring in our step. Often times it simply keeps us persevering one more week. You tipped your hand and showed your cards with that statement. You turn the Christian life into nothing but a pursuit of joy, and you lay a burden on souls that they can’t carry. That’s a shame.

    RS: I take it as a very basic aspect of human nature that we don’t like discomfort and misery and want that which is the opposite of that. Which brings us to one point. What is the point of persevering one more week? Do you persevere one more week just so you can persevere more week? I would think that there is a hope of knowing Christ which includes something of love and joy that drives souls. I would argue that the Christian life is in a sense the pursuit of the glory of God in the face of Christ but also the life of Christ in the soul manifesting the glory of God through His people. Two statements that are essentially the same thing.

    If you think of joy as something of intense excitement or ecstatic expression, then no. But I cannot but believe that deep down each soul that loves Christ wants to behold Him in His glory and that includes the soul having some sense of joy or delight at beholding Him. The pursuit of joy is indeed a sinful thing when done in a self-centered way, but if the soul always pursues something that keeps it above desperation then the soul will always pursue what it thinks is best. But then again, if souls seek grace out of self-centeredness that is also sin. We are to seek the glory of God in all that we do.

    I cannot imagine taking the Lord’s Supper and not wanting to see something of Christ in it. I cannot image taking the Lord’s Supper and not wanting to turn from sin and see more of Him. I cannot imagine taking the Lord’s Supper and wanting grace that is not Christ Himself. If my soul desires Christ and I am given Christ, there is something in the soul that has joy regardless of what you call it. People do not seek grace in order to make them sad or just get by. I would hope that people would want grace because that is to have Christ Himself. I would hope that people who desire Christ would see that desire as from God and that having Christ is the content of the soul.

  14. Mike K.
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Haven’t seen The Artist yet, but the trailer played before Hugo and it had the theatre (relatively) abuzz with disbelief over a new silent movie. Hugo was a magnificent movie and tribute in its own right. It’s a shame it takes Martin Scorsese to make well-known entertainment that is both “family friendly” and “good”, which hasn’t been realized since around the Animaniacs afaik.

    I’m also recovering from the consciously having to love Jesus more than everything all the time thing. It’s no different than if you had someone asking you at the bus stop, baseball game, birth of your firstborn, bathroom, birthday, car dealership, movies, restaurant, airplane, beach, and IKEA if you still love your wife a lot more than [whatever].

    Incidentally, a good movie also communicates much more artfully, convincingly, and creatively than weekly insinuations that if you don’t emotionally love your wife a lot more right now than [the sunset], then you might as well not even be married or perhaps never /really/ were.

  15. Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Nate, of course. After all, we don’t worship in the temple anymore. But if you want a side of peace offering to go with your cymbal, it’s a free country.

  16. DJ
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    RS: I dont look past next Sunday because that’s when the next ordinary means of grace ministry is scheduled. why would I want to love Christ but then say I really don’t need Him week by week?

  17. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    DJ: RS: I dont look past next Sunday because that’s when the next ordinary means of grace ministry is scheduled. why would I want to love Christ but then say I really don’t need Him week by week?

    RS: You must receive a lot of grace/Christ at your meetings to last a whole week, but I need Him moment by moment. While I don’t schedule ordinary means of grace as such, almost every day I am both in the Word and in prayer. In my reading of the NT Paul speaks much of Word and Spirit and then of prayer.

  18. Posted February 21, 2012 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    I’m an 8 year ember of Bethlehem Baptist Church. From the pew, Pastor Piper’s preaching does not land on me as a burden. He presses in hard on the Scriptures. He does at times wander off into his own pietistic applications, which can induce some indirect pressure on the listener.

    However, an occupational hazard of Christianity is that we can turn things into burdens and performances and a duty orientation. God wants to be loved. When we know that we love God, and when we can somewhat dimly percieve that God loves us, we will certainly feel some happiness/joy/elation/etc. Maybe a comparison could help illustrate: when husbands and wives are at their loving and connected best. Subjective, but an illustration/comparison.

    By the way, Darryl; did you know that BBC has an “Elder Affirmation Of Faith” that is used to guide us? How reformed of us! ;-)

  19. DJ
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    RS – do you attend church weekly?

  20. Michael T.
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Gary – I’d feel like an ember too if I sat under Piper’s fiery, piety-on-your sleeve preaching!

  21. DJ
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    RS – are you more confident in you daily devotions than the preached word and corporate prayer? Gulp.

  22. Posted February 21, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Richard, you said that “Edwards was for a joy that was full of glory and came as a result of beholding the glory of God…” You seem to say that as if it’s a good thing, but can you see what the problem is? Who can ever say he has beheld the glory of God? Does this not strike you as awfully unmediated, even Corinthian?

  23. Posted February 21, 2012 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    DG – I wouldn’t mind some BBQ but I’d have to eat pigeon since that’s all I could afford to bring. The psalmist sounds like we should express our joy in specific musical ways – I’ll have to ask my kinsman about the Instruments = Temple one. Makes sense though since we don’t express God’s forgiveness through peace offerings of animals though…

  24. Posted February 21, 2012 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    I wouldn’t mind some BBQ but I’d have to eat pigeon since that’s all I could afford to bring.

    Nate, you’re just being modest here, I know you could scrounge the funds for a fattened calf – unblemished of course. Besides, I wasn’t aware you raised pigeons down in Poway.

  25. Eliza
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    I agree with dgh. Piper sounds like it’s a zero-sum game–only so much joy to go around.
    Too bad he just doesn’t exhort his hearers to value Christ supremely as the giver of all other sorts of joy. He sounds awfully judgmental. Plus he’s not considering differences in temperament.

  26. Posted February 21, 2012 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Wait, there are two blogging Paschalls? Jed, have you properly introduced Nate? Do you like Nate? Will we be able to bait you two into arguments? Will you tell stories on each other?

  27. Posted February 21, 2012 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    MM,

    Wait, there are two blogging Paschalls?

    There’s actually more, maybe they will “out” themselves here at OldLife someday, some of the bloggers in the family trade in other stuff like photography, and are waaay more read than (but only because they are more talented and cooler and deserve to be more read) than Nate or myself.

    Jed, have you properly introduced Nate?

    Nate is my younger brother.

    Do you like Nate?

    Usually, except for that time we were on a road trip and fought through the entire state of Iowa.

    Will we be able to bait you two into arguments?

    Not very hard to do.

    Will you tell stories on each other?

    So long as I can obtain immunity from my Church’s session.

  28. Eric
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Um, did you read the whole article? After the excerpt you quote, Piper goes on to say:

    “The problem is not joyfully loving good created things. The problem is the apparent absence of similar affections for Christ.If similar affections for Jesus are not possible, then the specter of idolatry becomes serious.”

    “We don’t want them to lose their exuberance about anything good. We want Christ to be supreme in their hearts so that all their exuberance comes under him and for his sake.”

  29. DJ Cimino
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    I still would like to know if Richard Smith is a member of a church (or seeking membership) and if he attends church every Sunday?

  30. DJ Cimino
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Eric – isn’t this a tad subjective? Why, yes it is.

  31. Lily
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Darryl, this looks like a prime example of why Lutherans aren’t fans of the 3rd use of the law.

  32. Posted February 21, 2012 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    Eric, are not affections for Jesus different from my affection for my wife? Does Piper really want me to love Jesus the way I love the Phillies? Wouldn’t that trivialize Christ?

  33. Posted February 21, 2012 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Lily, really? The way J.V. Fesko says it, you could have fooled us:

    http://confessionalouthouse.wordpress.com/2009/12/29/fesko-on-the-third-use-in-lutheranism/

    But I’m not seeing how the normative use leads to an abnormal grasp of affection.

  34. OPC Guy
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    To the orignal post: standing ovation!

  35. Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    MM – the only reason Jed didn’t like Iowa with me was that I wouldn’t let him smoke a cigar in the car at 4:00 a.m. while I was trying to sleep.

    Jed – With peak oil prices doing what they’re doing, I don’t know if I be able to afford that fattened (unblemished) calf.

    DGH – so what if I’m not “excited” to go to church and attend the means of grace? Does that mean nothing is wrong?

  36. Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    “MM – the only reason Jed didn’t like Iowa with me was that I wouldn’t let him smoke a cigar in the car at 4:00 a.m. while I was trying to sleep.”

    Nate, a brother is only a brother, but good cigar is a Smoke.

  37. Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    But if it was a bad cigar you win.

  38. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    DJ: RS – do you attend church weekly?

    RS: I either attend or preach. A Bible study on Sunday night and one to two during the week. Why is that? We are to live by grace each moment of the day.

    DJ: RS – are you more confident in you daily devotions than the preached word and corporate prayer? Gulp.

    RS: I would say both are vitally important. Going to church, however, is not magic and one does not receive grace by simply showing up or even by hearing a sermon of some sort and taking the sacrament. Only the humble receive grace. If people are not humbled, then they will not receive grace. Again, Sunday services are not magic and daily “devotions” are not magic.

  39. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    Zrim: Richard, you said that “Edwards was for a joy that was full of glory and came as a result of beholding the glory of God…” You seem to say that as if it’s a good thing, but can you see what the problem is? Who can ever say he has beheld the glory of God? Does this not strike you as awfully unmediated, even Corinthian?

    RS: It is certainly Corinthian, but only in the sense of II Cor 3:18 and 4:4, 6.
    2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    John 11: 39 Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

  40. DJ
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Ordained? In a denomination? Such things are not unimportant.

  41. DJ
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Btw, the effects of the first pretty good awakening are clearly seen in RS answer. The move from a churchly christianity is one of the worst things to come from it.

  42. Lily
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Zrim,

    Both Fesko and Horton quote are right. We aren’t antinomians. It’s hard to explain the debate in the LCMS over the 3rd use of the law in sermons. There are numerous pastors who stick with the 2 uses in sermons.

    I’m not sure that I can explain the debate in a way that would do it justice and I’m not sure I understand all of it. As I understand it: the concern is that the 3rd use can lead to situations confessionals all hate – situations we are fighting in our synod. The “it’s all about me” focus, the let’s be relevant game, and/or the pastor who uses the pulpit for his pet hobby horses (eg: Piper’s joy stick). I hope that makes sense.

  43. Richard Smith
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    DJ: Btw, the effects of the first pretty good awakening are clearly seen in RS answer. The move from a churchly christianity is one of the worst things to come from it.

    RS: Well, many of the writers on revival and awakenings see the move from a churchly Christianity to a living Christianity as a good thing. In Scripture the Church met and actually had fellowship, focused on the apostle’s teaching, prayer meetings, and things like that. They were a living church and were not so focused on once a week things, though those were and are important.

  44. Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Only the humble receive grace. If people are not humbled, then they will not receive grace.

    Didn’t Christ died for us while we were still sinners? So grace doesn’t proceed humility? This is a really weird way of construing grace, basically we will only get it when we are humble enough to receive it – it’s almost if humility is a means of earning grace – and when that’s the case it probably isn’t humility.

  45. Posted February 21, 2012 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    “MM – the only reason Jed didn’t like Iowa with me was that I wouldn’t let him smoke a cigar in the car at 4:00 a.m. while I was trying to sleep.”…if it was a bad cigar you win

    Looking back, I’d be more inclined to call it a stalemate, which is usually how disagreements between Nate and I go – try staying awake when you have been driving since Wyoming, and had been pulled over in Nebraska.

  46. DJ
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 3:41 am | Permalink

    Rs- those who put the emphasis on Sunday don’t ignore their Christian wall the other 6 days (atty least we shouldn’t). We just understand that God has ordained means to work through and we don’t think that what we do to pursue sanctification Monday through Saturday are equal to or supersede what God does for us on Sunday.

  47. DJ
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    *walk*

  48. DJ
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    We also realize that its not a good thing to be a maverick and go it alone. Unfortunately, the 1stpga opened the f floodgates for that sorry of thing and now most Christians in this country think they don’t need the Church. Sad.

  49. DJ
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 3:53 am | Permalink

    And I say”chridtians” loosely as I confess that there is ordinarily no salvation outside the Church.

  50. Posted February 22, 2012 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    Nate, not sure. I do know that if you are excited it does not mean everything is right.

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  • By הובלות דירה באר שבע on February 29, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    הובלות דירה באר שבע…

    … הובלת דירה – הרכוש שצברנו במהלך חיינו אנחנו אוספים הרבה מאוד כאבי גב וברכיים אלא גם פריטים מסוימים מבתים הובלת רהיטים. אתר הובלות בישראל האתר מספק מידע וטיפים ההובלה, כגון: הובלות משרדים, הו… I Loved “The Artist” because Jesus Made It ……

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