The Reorganization of Old Princeton

Our own Darryl Hart recently visited with the folks at Reformed Forum to speak about the reorganization of Old Princeton on Christ the Center. Darryl’s article on the subject, “The Reorganization of Princeton Theological Seminary and the Exhaustion of American Presbyterianism” is published in the 2012 issue of The Confessional Presbyterian Journal. Listen to another interesting conversation on this important event in the history of American Presbyterianism.

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31 Comments

  1. Posted February 8, 2013 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    Nice. I was reading about the lowlights of mainstream Presbyterianism post-OPC split off last night so this lecture will fit right in.

    I might have to shell out the $20 for the journal, too. Good topics.

  2. Bob Morris
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    I had hopes that in my many weeks vacation from OLT that there might have been a welcome turn toward finding more helpful stuff for my new ministry to fellow seniors here at Alexian Village. But NO! OLT seems still finding fault with great fellow believers like George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards. C’mon Darryl, Erik, etc. Let’s roll! Maybe my sample was too small and I missed some worthwhile, God honoring posts and comments? :)

  3. Posted February 8, 2013 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    “Old Bob on the range!
    Where root beers and cantaloupe play,
    Where seldom is heard,
    an encouraging word,
    and the skies are all cloudy all day!”

    (to the tune of ‘Home on the Range’)

  4. Posted February 8, 2013 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    When I saw the Super Bowl commercial with all of the seniors sneaking away from the rest home and causing trouble I thought of Old Bob at the Alexian Village. Rock on, Old Bob!

  5. Richard Smith
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Bob Morris: I had hopes that in my many weeks vacation from OLT that there might have been a welcome turn toward finding more helpful stuff for my new ministry to fellow seniors here at Alexian Village. But NO! OLT seems still finding fault with great fellow believers like George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards. C’mon Darryl, Erik, etc. Let’s roll! Maybe my sample was too small and I missed some worthwhile, God honoring posts and comments?

    RS: Yes, there have been some good posts and comments, but as you note Whitefield and Edwards are still not appreciated. Perhaps folks have read some of Edwards and Whitefield and were either convicted or read them through the lenses of modern ways and so misunderstand. The response, then, is that they respond with expressions of dislike. Hang in there Bob as you minister to the folks at Alexian Village. 1 Corinthians 15:58 “Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.” Allow me to revise the song that was given just above.

    “Old Bob on the Village range!
    Where the retired and wise folks do play,
    Where seldom is heard,
    a truly discouraging word,
    and the Gospel is proclaimed (by word and deed) all day!”

    (to the tune of ‘Home on the Range’)

  6. Posted February 8, 2013 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Richard, puh-leeze. Deed proclaims? You’re not being very logocentric (and making the way straight for statues, relics, candles, and social gospels).

  7. Richard Smith
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    D. G. Hart: Richard, puh-leeze. Deed proclaims?

    RS: Is that a southern accent I detect? Of course our deeds can proclaim something of the Gospel, though not the message of the Gospel. No need to read something into the statement that is not there, but remember that Jesus said in John 13:35 that “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” I know that there is a modern way of using “live the Gospel” that goes beyond reality, but there is an element of truth to the statement if one reads what Jesus says.

    D.G. Hart: You’re not being very logocentric (and making the way straight for statues, relics, candles, and social gospels).

    RS: Oh no, I leave making the way straight to statues, relics, candles, and so on to those who don’t see that the Bible must be read in its own context and “allowing” it to speak and simply react to misuses of the Bible. Indeed there has been and is such a thing as the social gospel, but that error does not do away with the commands for good deeds.

    Acts 5:12 At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico. 13 But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem. 14 And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,

  8. stuart
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    I think Greggary’s tune is superior to Richard’s. It has ordered my soul.

  9. Richard Smith
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    stuart: I think Greggary’s tune is superior to Richard’s. It has ordered my soul.

    RS: But only according to your paradigm of self-interest and “I like it so it must be right.” In other paradigms, it is right to show respect men like Bob.

  10. stuart
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    Nothing against Bob or you. Greggary’s rhyme scheme is just superior.

    And as for my paradigm of self-interest . . . takes one to know one. (Insert Methodist emoticon here)

  11. Richard Smith
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    stuart: Richard, Nothing against Bob or you. Greggary’s rhyme scheme is just superior.

    RS: Admittedly his ryhme scheme is better, but…

    Stuart: And as for my paradigm of self-interest . . . takes one to know one.

    RS: Human nature.

    Stuart: (Insert Methodist emoticon here)

    RS: Aaarrgghh

  12. Posted February 8, 2013 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Bob,

    Consulting the blogosphere for ministry material? I think you might be better off mining Calvin or Owen for that. I am not sure what your motivation is here, but it sure comes off judgmental here. These are discussions about history, and historical figures. Do you propose we engage in hagiography with our Reformed forebears. There is a good deal of value in pointing out the way some in our camp have departed from Reformed orthodoxy so that we don’t repeat the same mistakes. Sure, Whitfield was instrumental in many conversions in his day, and many of those were probably genuine. But the lasting legacy of revivalism has been to gut the church of it’s respect for church office and diminish its confessional witness. So with any imperfect figure there is good and bad, guys like Whitfield and Edwards are not exempt from this.

  13. Bob Morris
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Thanks guys! Especially thanks to Richard for his love, wisdom, and his version of Old Bob plugged into “Home on the Range”. I guess RS would prefer “This Is My Father’s World” to what must be OLT’s favorite: “This World Is Not My Home”. :) Not really, Richard! Wise and loving Really Reformed folks are “both/and” on these 2 songs as they are on many other pairs of realities—- Faith AND works belong—- God’s sov. (never could spell that word!) AND Man’s real responsibilities—- Christ as fully man AND fully God. Many more!!! Now back to more worth while persuits here at Alexian Village on beautiful Signal Mountain, far above the Tennessee town of Chattanooga. Here I can use ALL of my 1950-1954 WTS education. Oh, I found fault with a few friends from Lafayette. GA. They mispronounce their own city: “La-FAY-it” NO! When I served with George Washington, I met a good French guy: Mar-KEE de Lafayette (La-fa-YET)! My alma mater in Easton, PA said it right also: Lafayette College was founded in 1832, was once presided over by BB Warfield’s bro.! Dr. Machen was once invited to be a Greek prof there while Warfield was prez. See Machen’s Bio of JGM. This Lafayette. GA thing was the most negative time, ever, in Old Bob’s entire 85 years on our planet! Love, Old Bob PS Guys, Lets read 1 Cor.13 every day? Darryl, listen more to Larry Arnn!

  14. Posted February 8, 2013 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    Concerning your “Gospel Deeds”… A little Machen (Christianity & Liberalism) might help you out here:

    But although Christianity does not end with the broken heart, it does begin with the broken heart; [Christianity] begins with the consciousness of sin. Without the consciousness of sin, the whole of the gospel will seem to be an idle tale. But how can the consciousness of sin be revived? Something no doubt can be accomplished by the proclamation of the law of God, for the law reveals transgressions. The whole of the law, moreover, should be proclaimed…

    … if the consciousness of sin is to be produced, the law of God must be proclaimed in the lives of Christian people as well as in word. It is quite useless for the preacher to breathe out fire and brimstone from the pulpit, if at the same time the occupants of the pews go on taking sin very lightly and being content with the more’ standards of the world. The rank and file of the Church must do their part in so proclaiming the law of God by their lives that the secrets of men’s hearts shall be revealed.

    All these things, however, are in themselves quite insufficient to produce the consciousness of sin. The more one observes the condition of the Church, the more one feels obliged to confess that the conviction of sin is a great mystery’ which can be produced only by the Spirit of God. Proclamation of the law, in word and in deed, can prepare for the experience, but the experience itself comes from God. When a man has that experience, when a man comes under the conviction of sin, his whole attitude toward life is transformed; he wonders at his former blindness, and the message of the gospel, which formerly seemed to be an idle tale, becomes now instinct with light. But it is God alone who can produce the change. Only, let us not try to do without the Spirit of God…

    So, as Machen helpfully articulates, we don’t “Proclaim the gospel (both word and deed)”.

    http://natepaschall.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/preach-the-gospel-if-necessary-use-words-revisited-again/

  15. Bob Morris
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Afterthoght- What do you OLT gentlemen think of Dr. Ben Carson’s speech, yesterday, at the prayer breakfast in Washington, DC? As he spoke, Sen. Sessions, R-AL sat next to the podium and next to the senator was the uncomfortable Obama. Click on “Dr. Ben Carson”. Love Old Bob

  16. Posted February 8, 2013 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    If any Old Lifers want in my Yahoo Fantasy Baseball league let me know. I’ll send you an invite.

  17. Posted February 8, 2013 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Old Bob – “See Machen’s Bio of JGM”

    Erik – Do you mean Stonehouse’s bio? Or Hart’s?

  18. Posted February 8, 2013 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Nate – The rank and file of the Church must do their part in so proclaiming the law of God by their lives that the secrets of men’s hearts shall be revealed

    Erik – To anyone who is watching “Downton Abbey”: Who proclaimed the law of God by their lives better? Mrs. Crawley who took in the former prostitute as her cook, or Mrs. Crawley’s housekeeper who quit to protect her good name because of what Mrs. Crawley did?

  19. Posted February 8, 2013 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Bob, did Dr. Arnn write 1 Corinthians? Did I miss a class at seminary?

  20. Posted February 8, 2013 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Bob, I’ll get back to you after finishing 1 Cor. 13 and Dr. Arnn’s latest book. Only so many hours in the day.

  21. Posted February 8, 2013 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Nate,

    The “Preach the gospel, use words if necessary” phrase you rightly decry confuses sanctification with justification. This is why the Heidelberg wisely puts the ten commandments and our obedience in the gratitude section. Some will indeed see our good works and be drawn to Christ, but others will see them, mock us, and hate Christ all the more. God can use our good works, but he will often save others in spite of our lack of good works and leave others in their sins in spite of our good works.

  22. Richard Smith
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Nate Paschall: Richard, Concerning your “Gospel Deeds”… A little Machen (Christianity & Liberalism) might help you out here:

    Nate quoting Machen: But although Christianity does not end with the broken heart, it does begin with the broken heart; [Christianity] begins with the consciousness of sin. Without the consciousness of sin, the whole of the gospel will seem to be an idle tale. But how can the consciousness of sin be revived? Something no doubt can be accomplished by the proclamation of the law of God, for the law reveals transgressions. The whole of the law, moreover, should be proclaimed…

    … if the consciousness of sin is to be produced, the law of God must be proclaimed in the lives of Christian people as well as in word. It is quite useless for the preacher to breathe out fire and brimstone from the pulpit, if at the same time the occupants of the pews go on taking sin very lightly and being content with the more’ standards of the world. The rank and file of the Church must do their part in so proclaiming the law of God by their lives that the secrets of men’s hearts shall be revealed.

    All these things, however, are in themselves quite insufficient to produce the consciousness of sin. The more one observes the condition of the Church, the more one feels obliged to confess that the conviction of sin is a great mystery’ which can be produced only by the Spirit of God. Proclamation of the law, in word and in deed, can prepare for the experience, but the experience itself comes from God. When a man has that experience, when a man comes under the conviction of sin, his whole attitude toward life is transformed; he wonders at his former blindness, and the message of the gospel, which formerly seemed to be an idle tale, becomes now instinct with light. But it is God alone who can produce the change. Only, let us not try to do without the Spirit of God…

    Nate Paschall: So, as Machen helpfully articulates, we don’t “Proclaim the gospel (both word and deed)”.

    RS: Perhaps I am missing something, but it appears to me that Machen is speaking of preaching the Law in the article you quoted. Nevertheless, John 13:35 still says what it says: “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    There is also John 17:21, “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me”

    Then Titus 2:10, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

    RS: The lives of people that have been changed by Christ have Christ manifesting Himself through them. The lives of people in that sense are manifestations of Christ and those people that are changed by the Gospel and have the life of Christ in them do testify to the Gospel. Indeed there must be a proclamation of the Law and the Gospel, but there is no need to dismiss either one. They fit together.

  23. Bob Morris
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Erik, I DO mean THE JGM bio by Ned Bernard Stonehouse. He gave me my copy. One of the early WTS greats I sat under. Once again you have shown how smart you are and how dumb Old Bob is. This SECOND accomplishment is easy! :) Glad you have time for the Super Bowl. Love, Old Bob. I especially love Larry Arnn and Dr. Ben Carson. Also Whitfield, Edwards, Machen, etc Are they smart?

  24. Bob Morris
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Darryl— Larry Arnn author of 1 Cor.13? Fu-NEEEEEE! More believable than if YOU wrote it! See how ugly I get by going to OLT? I QUIT Again! OB.

  25. Posted February 8, 2013 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Richard,

    The reason Machen speaks of “preaching the law” via one’s deeds is because one cannot “preach/proclaim the gospel” by one’s deeds, as you seem to have noted (albeit in a limited sense). The reason Machen ascribes to Christian deeds the “proclamation of law” is because he understood the law/gospel distinction and knew how not to conflate the two.

    The verses you supply still don’t sustain a biblical stance for deeds proclaiming the gospel. They certainly support the notion that the gospel empowers fulfillment of the law. They also testify to the renewing power of the gospel but are not themselves conduits of the gospel. Only words can supply the content of the gospel.

    Romans 10:17 should put to rest any associations you may have with our deeds proclaiming the gospel. “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

    Nowhere in scripture is the proclamation of the gospel associated (explicitly or implicitly) with our deeds/works. It is always associated with the declarative, spoken word, (preach, proclaim, speak, etc.).

  26. Richard Smith
    Posted February 8, 2013 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Nate Paschall: Nowhere in scripture is the proclamation of the gospel associated (explicitly or implicitly) with our deeds/works. It is always associated with the declarative, spoken word, (preach, proclaim, speak, etc.).

    RS: Indeed the proclamation of the Gospel is through preaching, yet the Gospel is about Jesus the Christ Himself. In the Gospels we have Christ doing miracles and people would believe in Him when He did the miracle. So clearly for people to learn about propitiation and the imputed righteousness of Christ they need to hear preaching (good preaching). But in some way Christ is proclaimed (indeed in a different way) by the lives of those He lives through. Christ is declared by the love of His people for one another.

    John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

  27. Posted February 8, 2013 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Bob, you must have walked the aisle a lot as a youth.

  28. Posted February 10, 2013 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    Listening to the program. Machen (Ben Stiller) plays volleyball with Charles Erdman (Owen Wilson) and other Presbyterian liberals/moderates:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxJvnJyF7xA

  29. Posted February 10, 2013 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    Hart mentions Machen putting together a catalog for the first year at Westminster. It would be pretty cool to get a hold of one of those.

  30. Posted February 10, 2013 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Hart mentions Gary North’s book “Crossed Fingers”. I have that but haven’t read it. Fat book.

  31. Posted February 10, 2013 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    Camden included a little free Old Life advertising at the end of the program.

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