The only communion where you kneel to receive grape juice and you have a priest who is able to mix it up with the BBs. Consider the following exchange (over Tim Bayly’s recommendation of a Roman Catholic Cardinal’s views on — can you believe it — masculinity:
Bill Smith – January 14, 2015 – 5:20pm
Excellent counsel here for how to enable men to be more manly:“The goodness and importance of men became very obscured, and for all practical purposes, were not emphasized at all. This is despite the fact that it was a long tradition in the Church, especially through the devotion of St. Joseph, to stress the manly character of the man who sacrifices his life for the sake of the home, who prepares with chivalry to defend his wife and his children and who works to provide the livelihood for the family. So much of this tradition of heralding the heroic nature of manhood has been lost in the Church today.”
“Going to Confession and to Sunday Mass, praying the Rosary together as a family in the evening, eating meals together, all these things give practical direction in the Christian life. ”
“As an example, it became politically incorrect to talk about the Knights of the Altar, an idea that is highly appealing to young men. The Knights of the Altar emphasize the idea that young men offer their chivalrous service at the altar to defend Christ in the sacred realities of the Church. This idea is not welcome in many places today.”
“In many places the Mass became very priest‑centered, it was like the “priest show”. This type of abuse leads to a loss of the sense of the sacred, taking the essential mystery out of the Mass. The reality of Christ Himself coming down on the altar to make present His sacrifice on Cavalry gets lost. Men are drawn to the mystery of Christ’s sacrifice but tune out when the Mass becomes a “priest show” or trite.”
“Young men and men respond to rigor and precision and excellence. When I was trained to be a server, the training lasted for several weeks and you had to memorize the prayers at the foot of the altar. It was a rigorous and a carefully executed service. All of a sudden, in the wake of Vatican II, the celebration of the liturgy became very sloppy in many places. It became less attractive to young men, for it was slipshod.
The introduction of girl servers also led many boys to abandon altar service. Young boys don’t want to do things with girls. It’s just natural. The girls were also very good at altar service. So many boys drifted away over time. I want to emphasize that the practice of having exclusively boys as altar servers has nothing to do with inequality of women in the Church.
I think that this has contributed to a loss of priestly vocations. It requires a certain manly discipline to serve as an altar boy in service at the side of priest, and most priests have their first deep experiences of the liturgy as altar boys. If we are not training young men as altar boys, giving them an experience of serving God in the liturgy, we should not be surprised that vocations have fallen dramatically.”
“…the Church must make a concentrated effort to evangelize men by delivering a strong and consistent message about what it means to be a faithful Catholic man. Men need to be addressed very directly about the demanding and noble challenge of serving Jesus Christ the Eternal King and His Catholic Church. Men are hungry and thirsty for meaning beyond the everyday world.”
“We need to catechize men about the profound realities of the Mass. As I mentioned, catechesis has been poor, especially the catechesis of men. Catechizing men and celebrating the Mass in a reverent way will make a big difference. It is also clear that many men will respond to the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, the rite celebrated before the Vatican II Council reforms.”
“Confession becomes a mysteriously beautiful experience for a man. For a man can know with certainty that he has personally expressed his sorrow for his sins to God, he can hear the freeing words of God through His minister and that his sins are forgiven and absolved.”
Tim Bayly – January 14, 2015 – 5:45pm
Dear Bill,The interview was not commended for its practical counsel concerning the formation of manhood. Rather I commended it for its forthright recognition of the abandonment of sexuality and manhood these past few decades.
I’m confident Baylyblog readers are skilled at differentiating between wheat and chaff.
Love, . . .
Bill Smith – January 15, 2015 – 10:28am
Patriarchy puts one into bed with strange fellows. Cardinal Burke the Roman Catholic who commends to us traditional Roman Catholicism is an ally who is willing to go outslde the camp of human approval, to be hated by the world, and to fill up the sufferings of Christ with us. On the other hand Tim Keller, the evangelical who preaches the Gospel if Christ, though not the gospel of patrimony, is rejected and warned against. It get curiouser and curiouser. . . .Tim Bayly – January 15, 2015 – 11:52am
Bill, you are a mere scoffer. Please move on.Firmly,
Bill Smith – January 15, 2015 – 12:10pm
Tim, I am not the one who commended Cardinal Burke and linked to the inteview with him in which he recommends traditional Roman Catholic doctrine and practice as the path to the recovery of manhood. I am not the one who attacks and warns against Tim Keller. I am not one who turns patriarchy into gospel and scoffs at those who do not see it and practice it as I understand it. In these cases that would be you.Honestly,
Bill
While separating wheat from chaff, I wonder if the BBs readers know that wheat is hermaphroditic both male and female.
Old Life 
What the heck was all that about? As an old RECer, 1980-2005, as odd as odd can be to read some new-join-RECer-from-the-PCA chatting about Anglicanism. Attending a TEC since 2000, however (don’t ask, it’s complicated and confused). BTW, will not be taking lessons in/on Anglicanism from Mr. Smith, Covenant REC, Roanoke, VA. Looks like there’s some backstory there.
I have no idea, however, whence the title REC? Scratching the head here.
Regards.
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Brother Veitch, I am afraid I don’t understand what your concern about me is. Would you want to clarify so I can? You can private message me via fb or DGH can give you my email. And Darryl we do kneeel to commune but we do not use grape juice. We are not Prayer Book Presbyterians.
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Are these BB’s sane or is it just very, very obscure satire? It is like a real life 21st century version of Don Quixote. I particularly like the “firmly” as if this nut is talking to his toddler…
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Lee Gatiss, The True Profession of the Gospel, p 103—-Latimer’s language that one can be in the book of life and then go out of it because of sin or be in Christ and then out of Him again, is certainly confused,
an Anglican “federal-visionist” before his time
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Anglican pastor and theologian Toplady, Works, 139—-“Works will not be the ground even of that public and declarative justification which will be predicted of the elect, on that great day….”
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Having the Anglican church as one’s “hereditary possession” (John Owen) is something of a questionable blessing.
Toplady, works, 275—-Is there a single heresy that ever annoyed the Christian world, which has not had its present partisans among those who profess conformity to the church of England?”
http://theworldsruined.blogspot.com/2011/02/calvin-and-church-of-england.html?
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Maybe the bayly boys will look to another great masculine tradition next and recommend an Imam. Pretty sure the views on patriarchy are similar …
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Hey-Ooooh!
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Bill:
1) Our REC parish in Norfolk had wine and we knelt. However, Grace REC (now defunct), Philadelphia, methinketh, had grape juice while kneeling. It was a non-issue. Some did, some didn’t, none must, all may–either way.
2) Not interested in talking about the REC. Sorry, Bill. Seen and heard too much. Rather, have moved on and prefer not to think about them. As in closed chapter, so let us just leave that there–buried without a headstone.
3) Still don’t get the purpose or origin of the title, but, that’s OK too. Darryl, let that lay quietly in the grave too.
Regards.
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Tim Bayly tries to play the more-Reformed-than-thou card: “I’m certain our good Anglican brothers on this blog…will understand when I point to these words by this recent convert to Anglicanism [Bill Smith] from the PCA as a good example of one real danger of turning away from historic Reformed worship to Prayer Book worship.”
How does that jibe with Clearnote’s: “Right now, some of our folks wear t-shirts, and some of them wear suits. We have a rock band and we say the Apostle’s Creed. We don’t know how it will all end up, but we trust God to lead us on this journey.”
And evidently when it comes to baptism, it’s freedom of conscience: “The Constitution of ClearNote Church, which is subject to and subordinate to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, the inerrant Word of God, consists of its doctrinal standards set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith, together with the Larger and Shorter Catechisms all as adopted by the Board of Elders, along with the Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed. Whenever possible, these Bylaws shall be interpreted so as to be consistent with the Constitution. Freedom of conscience in the area of baptism (adult-believer or paedo-baptism) is guaranteed to the members, officers and pastors of the church.”
Click to access Clearnote%20Church%20Bylaws%20%28amended%2002.05.12%29.pdf
Rock bands and latitudinarianism are historically Reformed? Manly blusterer, heal thyself.
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Glad to see BCO_2015 retians the Governor/Bishop status of our OP elders:
So is Tim saying I should be worried that my son would rather watch “Glee” with his mother than watch football with me?
Maybe I should send him outside to fight with swords with his brother.
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Most of the time guys who are obsessively worried about “manliness” are overcompensating for something.
Guys who are secure in their manhood really don’t need to talk about it much. We just perform as needed.
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Where does this contrast of PrayerBook worship with “historic Reformed worship” originate? I suspect the Westminster Directory of Public Worship, which was composed to destroy the Biblical liturgy of Common Prayer and substitute attendance at a Sunday lecture. I will submit the 1662 BCP is Reformed worship!
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EC, what if your son wants to watch Glee with you?
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Charles, 1662 is pretty late for “historic.” Ever heard of Wittenberg or Zurich? Sounding evangelical doesn’t befit the church that assumes Christ died for citizens of England.
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Not doing “Glee”.
Did see “American Sniper”, though. Really good.
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Erik,
http://mpmacting.com/blog/2014/7/19/truth-justice-and-the-curious-case-of-chris-kyle
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From the article linked by Cletus:
“The fans of Chris Kyle say he is an American Hero. They say he is the embodiment of all that is good about this country. I actually slightly disagree with that. I think Chris Kyle is not the perfect American, but rather the perfect embodiment of America. He was brave, yet a bully. He was selfless, yet selfish. He was humble, yet a braggart. He was brilliant, yet dense. He was a bullshitter, yet sincere. He was heroic, yet cowardly. He was the perfect embodiment of America in all of it’s manic contradictions and hypocrisies. And as the court case has proven, Chris, in the true American fashion, was more interested in marketing himself than in telling the Truth.”
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Brother, Vetich,
(1) I was at first look puzzled, too, by Darryl’s title. Eventually I realized that Darryl was picking up on the fact that Tim Bayly had eventually taken the disccusion in the comments section of his Blog to the subject of my REC membership and quoted from a Blog I wrote just after my reception into the REC explaining some of the reasons for my decision. Tim’s purpose, no doubt, was to discredit me with his followers by calling attention to my ecclesial connection and to a statement I made to the effect that I appreciated now the freedom to worship without the burden of the kind of self-examination urged by Calvinistic experimentalism.
(2) I am not at all sure why you thought I was trying to engage you in any discussion of the REC. As you note I am new to it while you were a member of it in the past and are now in a TEC parish. It surely had no desire to discuss the REC, it history, stengths, weaknesses, and challenges. There is some senstivity there on your part the causes of which I am unaware.
(3) I am still puzzled as to why you brought up the matter of not receiving any insruction from me about Anglicanism from me as I never offered any nor would it occur to me to offer any to you. That statment came from somewhere, but where I do not know.
At any rate, in this culture of voluntary church membership you and I have both made choices, with which I assume we are both content to live, and which decisions, I trust we can both respect if not agree with.
Darryl,
(1) Is not the 1662 BCP based upon Edwardian book – which roots it in the reformation era liturgies, which in turn makes it as “historic” as any of the liturgies of that era. In fact given the sources Cranmer used, is it not arguably more “historic”?
(2) I am not sure what you intend by about being “evangelical.” Are you talking about the BCP? The CofE? Surely you think that the 39 Articles are evangelical? The problem of “X’s dying for the citizens of England” seems to me, if that is actually asserted somewhere, a matter of the correlation of church and state. Good Presbyterians surely think Christ died for the church and its members, and if it is assumed that church and state are co-extensive, then Christ died for the citizens of England. That may be a mistake, but it does not arise of not being Protestant/evangelical, does it? Or am I missing something?
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It’s too bad this tread got sidetracked with a discussion on the REC and not Bill’s original point to the BB’s, which is an important one
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tread = thread
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Todd, true, but it’s not without some irony. The original point seems to be that doctrine is prior to culture, contra the BBs who prioritize culture to doctrine. And what does Bayly do to get rid of Smith? Plays a doctrinal card.
More irony, Bayly once suggested effeminacy for its priestly attire. Now the RCC is commended for its manly brawn? Are we supposed to heed men in “dresses” or not, Tim? Or do you simply have gay on the brain?
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2013/03/these-are-not-normal-men
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Zrim,
Point being that Bill was discerning that patriarchy is its own religion, it is not Christianity – adherents who have left/escaped the movement know the difference
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Rich piece of wisdom from the BBs recently:
“Sex is a calling from God and is foundational to Christian discipleship, so the man who says he’s a celibate effeminate is a rebel against God.”
Again, can someone explain to me how Clearnote Fellowship is not a Canaanite fertility cult? And how did this guy survive as an ordained PCA TE for decades? Do any PCA folks here have any thoughts on why Atlanta embraced this guy for so long?
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Bill, the title was supposed to be eye-catching and jaw dropping. I knew it would attract lots of hits.
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The Patriarch hath spoken it:
Dear Bill,
Now that you’ve had a good bit of time to respond to John Bulsterbaum and others, I’ve followed through and removed your commenting privileges.
Cordially,
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Bobby, ordinarily I’m for a more modest use of the c-word to describe the false (and nutty). But in this case, there may be an exception. And I’ll see your questions and raise another: Why are some Protestants given to this prosperity gospel of fertility? I thought the virtues were restraint, modesty and simplicity?
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Zrim,
I have no objection to unfettered procreation, as long as it’s not mandated from the pulpit. Even so, I have a hard time accepting the notion that you have to be horny to be holy. It strikes me that such sentiments may run counter I Corinthians 7. I’m happy to say that my denomination (PCUSA) recognized his poison early on and put him to pasture.
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Bobby, perhaps what animates the horny to be holy ethos is also what animates experimental and hedonistic Calvinism. Little wonder they find each other.
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Lee Gattss defends the Anglican hope
http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2012/12/06/the-westminster-defence/
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@Bobby any idea what the back story is with this guy? Why did he leave the PCA, has he been saying the kind of obscene things reflected by your quote all along, has he been radialized of late? Im not a PCA lifer, but Ive been part of three congregations around the country the last 15yrs (Midwest, southwest, and southeat). I ‘ve heard a few cringe worthy things over the years but nothing like the sex obsessed Baylys.
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I lived in Bloomington in the late 1990s. I didn’t attend his church, but went a couple of times out of curiosity. He said the same kinds of things then that he says now. His reputation around town was akin to what folks in Gainesville think of the Koran-burning Baptist who makes the national news periodically. If my memory serves me correctly, Bayly got slapped with a protective order after he had physically contacted and verbally abused a local Democratic politician at a local farmers’ market.
I have no idea why he left the PCA. Once I defended my dissertation, I moved away. I don’t know too many folks in the PCA, although I did attend a fairly liberal PCA church once…that later moved to the RCA.
No denomination is perfect. My theology is fairly post-liberal (if not outright anti-liberal), so I tend to have some sympathies with the PCA. But I feel more comfortable in a church that’s less obsessed with who’s in and who’s out.
I’m also a bit bothered by the insularity of the PCA. I found myself in North carolina for work one Easter a few years back. I was sitting on a plane in the morning, so I attended church at a PCA church that met in the evening. During the sermon, the pastor ridiculed Barth for not believing in the Resurrection. After the sermon, I noted to him that Barth indeed believed in the Resurrection. He responded along the lines of: “I have no idea what Barth believed about the Resurrection; if you do, then this probably isn’t the kind of Presbyterian church you’re looking for.” That statement probably sums up the reason why I’m not in the PCA: I know that Barth believed in the Resurrection.
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Bobby, I should know this but don’t. What did you study at IU? What do you do now?
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I studied physics at IU. I taught at a liberal arts college for a while, and then went to law school. I’m currently a corporate attorney.
I ran across your work when an email from Amazon recommended that I buy “A Secular Faith”.
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Bobby, you should correct your comment on Timothy Bayly and the protective order. He did not touch the woman politician who got the protective order. She got it after he spoke to her while he was walking along the street with his children, if I remember correctly. Keep in mind that you can get a protective order on essentially zero evidence. He had no special desire to ever approach the woman.
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