Pope Francis denies the rationale for Called to Communion:
“Our shared commitment to proclaiming the Gospel enables us to overcome proselytism and competition in all their forms,” Francis said. “All of us are at the service of the one Gospel!”
Although Francis has repeatedly called on Christians to invite others to the faith, he has also condemned “proselytism” on multiple occasions, by which he means coercive or aggressive missionary techniques.
The pope said that by answering the call to spread the Gospel, different Christian denominations will find a privileged setting for greater cooperation.
Christian unity, Francis said, won’t be achieved by subtle theoretical discussions in which each party tries to convince the other of the soundness of their opinions.
“To understand one another, and to grow in charity and truth, we need to pause, to accept and listen to one another. In this way, we already begin to experience unity,” Francis said. . . .
“A fruitful exchange of experiences,” Francis said, “can prove beneficial for the vitality of all forms of religious life.”
“To plumb the depths of the mystery of God,” said Francis on Sunday, “we need one another, we need to encounter one another, and to challenge one another under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who harmonizes diversities and overcomes conflicts.”
But John Allen thinks Francis is really singling out Pentecostal proselytism among Roman Catholics in South America. Even so, it’s the targeting of groups that seems to be behind the pope’s remarks:
Here’s something to think about: When Pope Francis blasts “proselytism,” he really may not be talking about, or to, Catholics at all.
In that regard, it’s important to remember that Francis’ primary frame of reference is as a Latin American pastor. There’s no part of the world that’s seen more organized and aggressive campaigns of proselytism in the last quarter-century or so, and for the most part Catholics have not been the architects of those efforts.
Instead, they’ve been more akin to the targets.
Arguably the most dramatic religious realignment of the late 20th century was the transition in Latin America from an almost homogeneously Catholic continent to a flourishing spiritual free market, with Evangelicals and Pentecostals posting massive gains.
Does make you wonder, though, if Francis knew about CtC would he be pleased? So the good news for us is that Jason and the Callers aren’t even on the pope’s global map. The bad news for them is that they’re out of sink with the officer who gives them the superior paradigm. Audacious. The pope doesn’t even care about them.
Word of advice to Jason and the Callers: indiscriminate Protestants prefer alliances to communion:
A high-profile alliance of conservative Catholics and evangelical Protestants is set to issue a sweeping manifesto against gay marriage that calls same-sex unions “a graver threat” than divorce or cohabitation, one that will lead to a moral dystopia in America and the persecution of traditional believers.
“If the truth about marriage can be displaced by social and political pressure operating through the law, other truths can be set aside as well,” say the nearly 50 signers of the statement, which is to be published in the March edition of the conservative journal First Things.
Old Life 
Devotees of popes past — be very afraid if Francis calls for a spade or a backhoe.
http://www.christianhistoryproject.org/the-quest-for-the-city/holy-roman-empire/cadaver-synod/
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I’m getting excited already for what post-Francis Roman Catholicism will look like. The reign of Francis starting March 2013 (has it really been almost 2 years?!?) has been quite the roller coaster ride, the next vicar will have large shoes to fill..
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Jimmy akin has already destroyed this post.
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-just-diss-apologists-9-things-to-know-and-share#ixzz3QchF317d
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The appropriate sound effect for daryls post.
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He exhorted them to find “authentic” pastors who display “professionalism, service and holiness of life.”
If the Superior Paradigm isn’t producing these pastors in my local parish, does that mean I’m golden joining a Presbyterian church with elders who display professionalism, service, and holiness of life?
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Wow, well, now I’m convinced. Kenneth, where do I sign up?
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loser ken, this is above your pay grade, speaking for THE speaker. For shame.
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If Francis knew about CtC?
You’re saying he’s not calling Bryan for advice?
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Speaking of…I’ll try to have my blow-by-blow up tomorrow:
“Drunk Ex-Pastors Podcast #28: Yoga Pants, Gay Husbands, and Incest”
“In this episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors, Jason and Christian talk about yoga pants. Naturally, this brings up many more topics such as when candy had its zenith, exactly what it means to covet your neighbor’s ass, and what it would be like if women catcalled men. They then talk about gay men marrying women and whether or not that will make god happy finally. A caller asks why a father shouldn’t marry his daughter, which leads to Jason being confused about how reproduction works. Jason is biebered by overly conservative people, and Christian is biebered by having to keep quiet until he has everything figured out.
Also, Jason advocates for straight men getting gay-married…again. Hmmm.”
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O.K. – We’ll go blow by blow.
Jason mocks the idea that advocates for the poor who are in tough financial straits themselves should not go on cruises.
Since Christian paid, I’ll concede the point is probably moot.
We’ll see if they consider extenuating circumstances next time they pile on “the rich”, though.
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Christian admits to watching porn to “get off” and Jason agrees that this is not as bad as actually lusting after a live woman in the flesh.
Excuse me while I step away from the computer to throw up.
O.K., I’m back.
Jason refers to his genitals as his “wiener”.
Need to step away again.
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More Penthouse Letters stuff, including a term that was new to me — “snail trails” (from Christian, not Jason).
Jason uses the term “boners”.
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Jason argues that Ryan Gosling is attractive.
Christian makes a Mike Warnke reference. Touche.
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@ Kenneth:
I’m not so sure you’re right. Akin seems to be correct that the pope was criticizing bishops who are apologists for their own agendas. Presumably, that would include non-bishops who are apologists for their own agendas, yes?
And certainly CtC has a particular agenda: To harness philosophy in the service of papal positivism.
Francis would presumably oppose such a move. Or would he? Kinda hard to understand those papal pronouncements.
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Erik, I had never heard of resting b**ch face, either. My wife was impressed when I asked her if she knew what that was. You’re making me look good, bro. And I don’t have to listen to their podcast, given all your efforts. As always, your services are more than welcome.
For my part, comment away!
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Giving them a bit of a pass in the comments section:
Erik Charter
February 2, 2015 at 4:08 PM
“Basically, anything that comes out of California Christianity from…well…ever, needs to be taken with a grain of salt – from Azusa Street to Sister Aimee to The Jesus People to the Crystal Cathedral — pretty much everything but Westminster and the decent Dutch Reformed folk who spawned her. It’s amazing you & Jason made it as far as you did. California goofs just about everything up — Christianity included.”
Half-way in they’re sounding like Dr. Ruth and/or Dr. Phil and Jason is already tipsy. This may be a lost episode. More later.
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Erik:
Have you ever wondered why you never see popes Benedict and Francis together?
Maybe it’s be Francis is really Benedict playing the “drunk ex-pope”.
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loser ken, this is above your pay grade, speaking for THE speaker. For shame.
In a nutshell, The performative flaw par excellente in the superior papal paradigm.
Are the babblers listening?
Come on, you already knew they weren’t and never expected them to.
Bryan would have to ask Jase to give his boss a recommendation for work and be second billed on the podcast.
Not Going To Happen.
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D. G. Hart
Posted February 2, 2015 at 4:55 pm | Permalink
loser ken, this is above your pay grade, speaking for THE speaker. For shame.
This is your most brilliant refudiation of the Catholics yet, Dr. Hart. Your supporters here must be so proud.
Bob S
Posted February 2, 2015 at 9:34 pm | Permalink
loser ken, this is above your pay grade, speaking for THE speaker. For shame.
In a nutshell, The performative flaw par excellente in the superior papal paradigm.
Are the babblers listening?
Come on, you already knew they weren’t and never expected them to.
Bryan would have to ask Jase to give his boss a recommendation for work and be second billed on the podcast.
Not Going To Happen.
Exactly. Darryl, you must be so proud of your flock as well. Old Life Theological Society is cutting a triumphant swath of theological excellence right through Christendom. BobS should be invited to speak at your church on Sunday. In fact, you should fly “Erik Charter” in and make a day of it.
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Does anyone pay attention to Catholic apologists? Most Protestant-to-Catholic converts I’ve met seem to have a screw or two loose. We’re probably better off without them. Maybe we can convince Kloosterman to swim the Tiber.
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Re: the upcoming screed against same-sex marriage…
I guess the folks at the Manhattan Declaration must be short of funds. They need to get one more round of fundraising in before the Supreme Court obviates this issue…and before the group’s donor base is overtaken by dementia.
In some ways, evangelicals (and conservative Catholics) are a lot like Italian public officials: The louder they complain, the more you’re free to ignore them with impunity.
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Bobby, the Roman Catholics do. The apologists may even be getting through to vd, t.
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They are not.
Andrew citing Robert:
There is a third choice here, which is to “make believe”:
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“In some ways, evangelicals (and conservative Catholics) are a lot like Italian public officials: The louder they complain, the more you’re free to ignore them with impunity.”
Bobby, that’s great. Another good one is “the bullets fly but Mussolini remains!” You should try to get something done quickly at the Post Office in South-Central Italy. Wow!
It’s nice to see you write “we’re” better off without them. I’m with Muddy, stay yourself but stay in Church. People, even we who are part of the “cognitive commons,” grow to respect courage and integrity. You’re also likely to find we aren’t even jealous, we admire the cognitive elite, provided they’re really elite and sane. And we’re not easily fooled, Biden, Kennedy, Dodd are sweat hogs and we know it.
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I feel sorry for Jason. He’s ensnared now or at least friendless and going, in the phrase of A.Ensolen, subsane.
Somebody who used to be a friend ought to reach out to him.
I think the most telling thing that Francis has said is that he thinks the people of God are infallible. That seems to me to be a Mazzini-Francis tag-team hit to P. Pius IX. An Acton group.
He doesn’t want to change words, he wants to change behavior by changing understanding thereby creating theology through practice: Come si pratica e come se crede.
I disagree with Francis some but I’d like him a whole lot more if he were a deep thinker.
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When Tom puts my name in quotes I feel like “The Artist Formally Known as Prince”.
It’s nice to have arrived.
What a dork.
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MLD, pray for Jason.
Kenneth is a DXP fan, we can count on kW to keep an eye on Stelly. I think..
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Erik, Tom obviously skipped Mass on Sunday.
Again.
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Bobby – Most Protestant-to-Catholic converts I’ve met seem to have a screw or two loose. We’re probably better off without them. Maybe we can convince Kloosterman to swim the Tiber.
Bobby – They need to get one more round of fundraising in before the Supreme Court obviates this issue…and before the group’s donor base is overtaken by dementia.
Erik – LOL. Not going to happen with Kloosterman. Do you know how irrelevant fluency in Dutch is for a Catholic?
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Tom, you say DGH must appreciate me doing some yapping for him.
If you understood, you’d realize he has written mannnny books, the start of which I was like 10, watching Star Trek as a kid. His service to Christ’s Church is invaluable to someone like me, and you, who realize that we in the OPC are part of the holy catholic* church.
*catholic historically has meant “universal.”
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Andrew,
I can’t pray for him because I don’t know him, I only know of his antics. I know that sounds off but I don’t mean disrespect by it.
Those who know him should pray for him. Their petitions have meaning and mine would not.
P.S. I think my Italian is off. I think it should be come si crede.
My parents are gone, I was the only kid whose Italian was pretty good. And now it’s fading because I don’t have anyone to speak Italian to.
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MLD, understood. You said you felt sorry for the man you don’t know, just throwing out ideas.
Peace.
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MLD – Somebody who used to be a friend ought to reach out to him.
Erik – When you blow through religions every 3-4 years its hard to accumulate lasting friendships. That’s why you revert to your lifelong friend who is now an agnostic.
The people I sincerely feel badly for are the wife and kids. If I heard from them or from their pastor that anything I am doing is causing them pain I would stop immediately. They are the victims in all this. After you are married with children is a terrible time to launch a journey to find yourself.
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Andrew,
It his antics that make me feel sorry for him. I think they give something away of him but that’s not like knowing him.
To give a better example, Lane K at Baggins knows him. Do you see what I mean?
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Andrew,
Tom is an obnoxious mailman.
I’m the Pit Bull in his face.
You’re the yappy dog nipping at his heels.
It’s a good combo.
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Erik,
Point taken about his fecklessness but someone who knows him, who cares about him, can be the bigger man, no? And I’m not implying you’re to be that man. I’m just saying.
I can’t imagine being his wife.
A lot of converts have wives that have converted because they know that the husband’s conversion could spell marital doom. So they newly believe because he newly believed.
I wouldn’t be able to do that and I admire Jason’s wife for what seems strength to me.
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MLD, or DGH could, since he drank white Russians after watching The Big Lebowski while at Seminary.
Erik, I was going more for Jimmy and Bunk, the old good cop/bad cop routine. Being a deacon, I always get the easier of the two jobs.
I dig your dog analogy. Woof.
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The Wire – D’Angelo’s Baltimore Interrogation: http://youtu.be/DY_5KP9cHRI
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Is Jason Stellman to Catholicism what Tim Whatley was to Judaism?
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MLD, why does Francis need to be a deep thinker when so many think his thoughts for him? I’ve never seen so many interpreters of the one who has the authority to interpret. Sort of like Protestants with the Bible.
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Andrew, but do I make you laugh?
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ec, and I’m the feline that yawns.
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“MLD, why does Francis need to be a deep thinker when so many think his thoughts for him? I’ve never seen so many interpreters of the one who has the authority to interpret. Sort of like Protestants with the Bible.”
Because, like when it’s all about you, this is all about me. He’s Italian, it’s embarrassing. Yes, that’s tribal; sue me.
Hasn’t every Pope needed his interpreters? After all, however important (self or not) his only medium is still words. Even facts need interpretation.
I can’t speak on behalf of Protestants, DGH. I have enough troubles of my own to tend to. And speaking of pay grades? It’s way above mine.
Kind of like our President and McCain in the two-on-one with the heavy-set Pastor w/the Purpose Driven Life (can’t think of his name) when he asked them when life began: PO said it was way above his pay grade and when McCain answered, at conception, and if memory serves, Obama’s team said that McCain was fed the answer through a mic or secret tunnel or something like that. Apparently, McCain’s numbers went up because his answer was a humble one.
I miss De Regno Christi, that was a good blog. If you ever speak with Pastor Chellis, tell him that Mary Louise says hello and hopes that he and family are well.
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Mrs. Stellman must be a unique and longsuffering woman.
I suspect she is mothering pretty much everyone in her home.
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Darryl, yes. And to think.
Me and many others.
Thanks.
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MLD,
Hasn’t every Pope needed his interpreters? After all, however important (self or not) his only medium is still words. Even facts need interpretation.
You wouldn’t get that sense from reading Bryan Cross and the gang at CTC. They seem to think he is perspicuous as God’s Word. Although I seem to remember a discussion with them where they ended up saying that there is at least he possibility of asking yes or no questions of the Magisterium. I think that is how they get around the whole endless chain of interpretation criticism of Rome that is raised whenever they start talking about their “principled mechanism.”
The problem, of course, is that even “yes” and “no” answers have to be interpreted.
But one thing’s for sure. Keep pressing them on it and you will finally be accused of begging the question for not sharing their presupposition that Rome is the one true church.
CTC=Roman Catholic presuppostionalism without the critical self-awareness found in someone like Van Til.
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Speaking of all things feline, for anyone following along (all) about Bart (not Simpson, per the image, rather, the Cat), we may have an ugly custody battle on our hands:
<blockquote cite=""."If we have to go to court, we have to go to court," Hudson said. "I don't think it's right for me to lose my cat."
Saying a prayer for Bart,
Andrew
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Robert,
I went to confession once telling the priest I was having a hard time accepting certain parts of doctrine. He began to ask me to confess acceptance, when I couldn’t he told me he couldn’t forgive my sins. He didn’t give me the chance to say, I have no desire to rail against it. I didn’t think too much of it because I had known the priest’s style. I just said okay and left. He was a very good homilist in that he knew a lot about personal, papal history and could weave that into his sermon. I like history and the use of it in sermons about the life of Christians and the progress of Christianity
After that, I went to the parish of my youth to confess my doubts and the priest said, as long as you believe that Jesus is God and that he rose from the dead, leave the other doctrines be if they’re troubling your faith. I told him also, that I had already confessed to another priest and that he wouldn’t forgive my sins. He didn’t comment. But his advice to me, his treatment of me, was correct.
It wasn’t the first time I had confessed doubt. The priest who wouldn’t forgive my sins recommended in the fist bout that I read Aquinas. But what I needed was someone to explain, in plain words, some things to me or to be like the priest who wanted to keep me from losing my faith out of despair. When I went to Aquinas the first thing that begins to seem off is his description of evil by likening it to a man born without an eye. But evil marches, I thought. So I didn’t go on because that basic seemed so off.
I though myself an unbeliever and what convinced me that I’m really just a sinner is that in my last confession I told the priest that I prayed to God that he let me know if I really didn’t believe. Do you see what I mean? Then, I thought of Adam and thought, my goodness, if he didn’t believe or called God a liar, and walked with God, there’s hope for me.
It is one thing to say, we have preserved the earthly life or the journeys of the communion of saints, as best we know how. We do know Clement and Augustine and Aquinas, intimately and dutifully. Here we stand, we can do no other. That’s my attachment to Rome, Robert, that’s how I see her, the whore who did, along with my parents, form my knowledge of and love for Jesus Christ.
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Convey to Ken that many of us see his name and 1500 words beneath it and scroll down in a picosecond to the next post that isn’t his….
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Has the Pope given a definition of the Gospel that is his “final answer” ?
I’m curious…
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Zrim, Tim Whatley, ha!
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“Chrissy, gimme a schtikel of fluoride.” But the analogy works when you think about it.
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He converted just for the jokes!
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Jason & Christian discussing gay Mormons and answering voice mail questions about incest.
It’s gone Jerry Springer and they’re only on Episode 28.
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MLD: Rome, a “whore”? Wow! you and I ought to compare notes some time!
Email me at johnbugay@gmail.com
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Andrew, but the jokes aren’t funny, they suck, just shoot us now…
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I offer Jason an olive branch and Christian gets all snarky and offended:
Erik Charter
February 3, 2015 at 11:00 AM
Jason,
Are you still one of Called to Communion’s “team of contributors”? Bryan the Stubborn still has you listed on page 1, even though you haven’t written anything since the end of 2013. If you’re not and you can get him to stop claiming you are I’ll leave you alone. The chasm between what you peddle here and we he peddles there is vast.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2013/10/called-to-communion-welcomes-jason-stellman/
Christian
February 3, 2015 at 11:06 AM
Erik, be sure to mention your obsession with this during your next therapy session.
You may want to see if DG and the rest of your cohorts at OL want to call in for that session as well.
Erik Charter
February 3, 2015 at 11:11 AM
Are you ever coming back to Old Life or was your running away in tears your final appearance?
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Kent, true. Like Tim Whatley.
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The Drunks are debating the vexing question of whether or not fathers should be able to marry their daughters.
Calvary Chapel High School set these guys back AT LEAST a decade…
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But Tim later put on the hat to become Heisenberg.
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yofaking on reddit/christianity is a fan, tho:
It’s gotta mean SOMETHING when you get reddit attention like that, yo..
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Cross section of Drunk Ex-Pastors Audience:
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you’re g-d d–n right
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My sincere review: “Larger criticisms aside, this entire episode was retarded. Seriously, you need to sh*tcan it and record a new #28. Just awful in comparison to the early episodes. You guys are running on fumes and need to either turn the ship around or pack it in.”
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Jason’s current description for himself: “Openminded, Agnostic, Catholic, Christian”
Bryan? That’s not the paradigm you’re selling.
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Andrew, the one who knocks.
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Erik, like the alcoholic who needs to get to “rock bottom”, it seems as if the “drunk ex-pastors” need to explore those bottom areas before they realize there’s a serious problem that they need to deal with.
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Are you ever coming back to Old Life or was your running away in tears your final appearance?
Erik,
When did this happen? I gotta see this!
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I go all Ann Landers on Jason:
“The point that Jason continues to miss is that, if you’re not reasonably certain that you’re going to continue believing what you believe, don’t seek to be a leader in X movement. Don’t be a Calvary Chapel missionary, don’t accept ordination as a PCA minister, don’t prosecute Peter Leithart, don’t go on TV announcing your conversion, don’t become a Catholic apologist overnight contra the group you just left, and don’t start a freaking “Drunk Ex-Pastors” podcast. Just keep your head down and mind your own business like 98% of the population. You make yourself a public person, so you have no one to blame but yourself when people notice. Quit whining or get the flip out of the spotlight. It’s just plain narcissism.”
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Hire Jason to perform at your son’s Bar Mitzvah!
http://www.cmgbooking.com/catholic-speakers/jason-stellman
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Kent, ding.
Was a great shoe before it devolved in the end.
Toodles.
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Catholic Speakers: Jason Stellman
Apologetics
Convert
Theology
Travels from Seattle, Washington
In addition to being a former Presbyterian minister and missionary, Jason Stellman is an author, speaker, and popular blogger who has been teaching Scripture and theology on a regular basis for the past two decades.
His career as a Bible teacher to poor African villagers, European university students, and wealthy American suburbanites has enabled him to communicate deep truths to diverse audiences with credibility and understanding, in ways that are simple, clear, and engaging. He was featured as a keynote speaker with Scott Hahn and Peter Kreeft at the 2013 Defending the Faith conference in Steubenville, OH, and will be appearing on EWTN’s “The Journey Home” later this year.
With over 20 years of Protestant pastoral ministry under his belt, Jason is comfortable speaking about a number of topics. Areas of particular expertise and enjoyment include expounding the New Testament and showing how gospel-related issues like the cross, faith, worship, and the sacraments bear upon the everyday lives of Catholics in the twenty-first century. And as a convert, he absolutely loves to explore the issues that separate Catholics and Protestants (since those are the very issues with which he wrestled extensively before resigning his ministry and seeking full communion with the Church).
“Jason Stellman is a committed disciple of Jesus Christ, a fantastic speaker and a man of great integrity who has embraced the Catholic faith at great cost to himself and with inspiring courage. He is thoughtful, funny, and a serious thinker whom I am proud to call a friend.” – Mark Shea
“The last time I heard Jason Stellman speak, 1,500 people erupted with a standing ovation. They knew what others are quickly learning, that Jason is a true gem. His many years as a preacher, his great erudition, his winsome humor, and his admirable courage and integrity make him the complete package. If you’re looking for a speaker to knock the ball out of the park, Jason’s your guy.” — Brandon Vogt, author, blogger, speaker
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Erik, I wouldn’t write up that much phony butt-kissing for the person who risked life and limb to pull me out of a flaming car-wreck just before it exploded.
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Erik, I’m still waiting for, the movie on all this.
Guess who makes an appearance?
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One has to ask which came first – the waning interest in Catholicism or the realization that it was not going to be a paying gig?
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They need to go to an Evangelical revival night where 12 recent immigrants get up and praise how God is good because they just cashed a commission cheque from real estate/sales/whatever worth $250,000 or more.
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With over 20 years of Protestant pastoral ministry under his belt, Jason is comfortable speaking about a number of topics.
Yeah, no s**t.
But seriously, I’m going to guess that in his 20 years of Protestant pastoral ministry Jason didn’t talk much about gay Mormons, yoga-pants-clad buttocks, ass-coveting, The Delights of Porno, incest, or Mark Driscol’s penis. Salvation, grace, and Jesus Christ just pale in comparison.
Christian (and agnostic) freedom, yo.
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It was a tragic day with what was wearing yoga pants in front of me today, no more please….
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Andrew,
Good find.
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Seth – With over 20 years of Protestant pastoral ministry under his belt, Jason is comfortable speaking about a number of topics.
Yeah, no s**t.
Erik – LOL
Meanwhile, Jason’s taking the high road, refusing to engage me in my scurrilous accusations.
No arguing with any facts I’ve stated, notably.
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Link for Erik’s Stelly blurb. Has picture of that time Jason stole Ed McMahon’s clothes.
http://www.cmgbooking.com/catholic-speakers/jason-stellman
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Don’t thank me. Thank the cat in the hat, yo.
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This from the same page looks promising: “Review our elite list of diocesan-approved Catholic musicians.”
http://www.cmgbooking.com/
Was Sinatra previously on the list?
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CW, you sure it wasn’t Diocletian-approved musicians?
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Exquisitely horrible tooleration here that would embarrass the lamest mid-market Southern Baptist.
http://www.cmgbooking.com/catholic-musicians
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CW,
They have Patti on there, don’t they?
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Good luck. The only man that can tell Bryan what to do on his little playground CalledtoCommunion is this man.
Everyone else? Well, that would be begging the question, yo.
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Tater?
Jeremy
February 3, 2015 at 1:09 PM
Erik’s obsession is almost a mini DEP podcast. It reminds me why I don’t miss my reformed days.
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DGHART,
this is above your pay grade, speaking for THE speaker. For shame.
I am not speaking for the speaker. Just exposing yet another one of your gaffs. The Pope wasn’t speaking to apologists or to apologetics. He was speaking to agenda driven bishops. Nice try though. (Not really. Embarrassingly awful)
Kent,
Just know that when I type more than a paragraph the intended audience is limited. I know most of you have the attention span of a goldfish. Still, there are one or (maybe) two people around here worth talking with from time to time. Its an old game with Robert and I at this point…. but its better than playing crossword
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Link for Erik’s Stelly blurb. Has picture of that time Jason stole Ed McMahon’s clothes.
Reminds me of the episode when Crazy Joe Devola kicked Kramer in the head and dented his helmet.
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Good luck. The only man that can tell Bryan what to do on his little playground CalledtoCommunion is this man.
Yup, and if this one died and then the next one said something totally opposite the next minute, Bryan would nod and say both were the whole truth….
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…..
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As k-love denigrates and deprecates, let’s be reminded what a mac daddy he really is:
“Have you ever attempted a pleasant and mutually enriching conversation about “religion” or “spirituality” only to find yourself trapped, with your feet to the fire, getting interrogated by that jerk who had done his homework? Well, I’m that guy and this is my blog.”
http://www.coffeehouseinquisition.com/about-me/
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CW, that’s a snappy angle to an intro.
And we have done 100s of hours of homework.
Yes, a few of your fellow students did indeedy-do a close reading of that boring poem taken up in class today.
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Around here, Erik dishes out the therapy.
Dig it, yo.
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Unlike pope moonflower, k-love says all-a-yall or goin’ to hay-ull:
“Thus, from the Roman Catholic perspective, protestant theology is never the means of ones salvation. A protestant can be saved, but only in as much as he or she can escape from his denomination through ignorance and (at least) an implicit desire to join the true Church. In a sense, it could be said that christian education and study actually work against a protestants relationship with Christ. However, even when a protestant is invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church, this would still not necessarily entail that they were in a state of grace. Said person might still be culpable of other mortal sins and may still be damned on that account.”
http://www.coffeehouseinquisition.com/brothers-in-christ/
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Erik Charter
February 3, 2015 at 1:31 PM
Christian, The name is only part of it. It’s the bad language, the lewd comments, the choice of topics (like this episode). Not stuff befitting a healthy, growing, orthodox Roman Catholic. It is fitting a former Christian, now agnostic, though. This is why I say if you’re truly a friend to Jason you would be helping him more than you are, even if his choices are different than yours.
Christian
February 3, 2015 at 1:39 PM
You understand that not everyone shares your paradigm about life and religion, right? You say things so often that make me think you have a difficult time grasping that.
Erik Charter
February 3, 2015 at 1:57 PM
Christian,
If Jason is truly a Roman Catholic him and I should agree on the moral issues in question. If him and I disagree on those, he also disagrees with Bryan Cross and the good Catholics at Called to Communion, which renders his being on the masthead there ridiculous. If Catholic morality is not an objective thing, then one of Jason’s primary reasons for converting is rendered void — the fact that he had discovered a Church that Christ himself founded that is objectively true and stands apart from fractured Protestantism.
I don’t claim you and I agree on much, if anything. The sheep and the goats. You know the story.
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Brandon Addison
February 3, 2015 at 1:23 PM
Jason,
You don’t need me telling you how to run your life, but I have to admit that I’m a bit befuddled by where you are. In one sense, it isn’t any of my business and you don’t owe me (or any former Protestant) anything. At the same time, in the 2.5 years since your conversion have appeared in the following:
1. You announced your conversion in June and were engaging in debate as earlier as August 11th here: https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/list-paradigm-versus-agape-paradigm/#comment-101682
2. You blogged at a Catholic Apologetic site initially in August, but then the link was removed and then reinstated in September (that timeline may not be completely accurate, but I believe the article was published initially in August before being pulled down and subsequently reposted): http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/09/i-fought-the-church-and-the-church-won/
3. You continued to blog over at Creed Code Cult about this issues: http://www.creedcodecult.com/on-faith-hope-and-love/
4. As you continued blogging you were speaking at apologetics conferences about your conversion with “prominent” converts like Scott Hahn and Peter Kreeft. You were dubbed a “keynote” speaker at that event and you spoke about your conversion. Mark Shea recalls the conference here: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/what-i-saw-at-defending-the-faith-in-steubenville
5. As of 10 months ago (April 2014) you were in the process of writing a book entitled, “I Fought the Church (and the Church Won).” and you even released an excerpt: http://www.creedcodecult.com/likelihood-plausibility-and-sola-scriptura/
6. As of May 27th, 2014 you noted you’d no longer blog because you had a book deadline but you wanted to keep the site up because of all the traffic it received and the good work it was doing: http://www.creedcodecult.com/big-announcement-from-creed-code-cult/
7. On August 1st, 2014, you post your first Podcast on “Drunk Ex-Pastors.” and in subsequent episodes we hear you cursing, drinking, sounding rather progressive (at least from where the PCA is and where the perception of those at CtC is), etc., on a podcast with your agnostic best friend.
To be clear, I’m not calling you to defend your actions. I don’t know a single detail about your day-to-day life and I’m not entitled to it. You may have changed your mind on some things and you may even regret the way you acted in the wake of your conversion. Things and people change and there is nothing wrong with that. Shoot, from now since August 2014 is a lot of time for someone to change their thinking, so maybe you’re in a different place than when you started the podcast.
The fact is though that you haven’t distanced yourself from same Jason writing a book about Catholicism and your conversion in May 2014. If there was some sort of explanation about that I think it would be helpful because as it stands those of us who have followed you are left wondering what is going on. You certainly don’t owe me that explanation (trying to overemphasize that), but I think if you really stop to think about the course of events, you’ll realize why those of us in your previous camp are perplexed and point out what we perceive to be the utter hypocrisy of Jason the Drunk Ex-Pastor and Jason the book writing, conference speaking, Catholic blogging, apologist.
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What’s a gaffe? It is to mis-spell gaff.
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Kenneth, what exactly is it you want to talk about?
Because honestly, you come off as an internet troll.
You say things like
And how you just want to jerk people around who, in your mind, have not done their homework, and you are surprised no one wants to have a real theological discussion with you?
Are you for real?
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Exactly, Andrew, I’ll do the jerking around on here of those who haven’t seen the light of solid Christian Reformed doctrine.
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Kent, I wake up in the morning, make a cup of coffee, and just hope that Kenneth is around OLTS to jerk me and Darryl around, as he continues to display his utter lack of self-awareness.
Someone, please call his priest and tell him that Kenneth isn’t doing the Catholic religion any favors. For his sake.
I’m out.
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Kenneth –
Kent,
Just know that when I type more than a paragraph the intended audience is limited
Erik – Intended audience: 1?, Effective audience: zero to negative 3
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Andrew.
You go, girlfriend!
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Erik, don’t ease up on Jason, well done, yourself.
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LOL.
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I laughed one time at Ken’s post that I broke wind.
Grateful that was all that happened.
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Christian,
In your fervor, you’re missing what I’m doing. I’m merely pointing to one group of Catholics at Called to Communion and another Catholic, Jason, and pitting them against each other. My piety or lack thereof has nothing to do with it. An atheist could be making the same points I’m making. Certainly a logician of whatever stripe could be making it. It’s extremely easy pickings.
If Jason’s Catholicism is of a liberal variety, one that allows him to say “fuck” at will and to talk about whatever he wants, there are liberal Catholic groups out there. By all means, align with them. The group he is currently aligned with, at least as of an hour ago, is not that group, though. It’s hypocrisy for them to align with him and for him to align with them.
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If Jason is a car he’s careening down the road, swerving from left to right, knocking over mailboxes, scaring cows, uprooting gardens. It’s not too much to ask him to go back and mend a few fences, replant a few flowers, put things in order. That’s all I’m doing.
And this is therapy.
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Andrew,
Oh, Puh-lease. When was the last time I addressed a comment in your direction? Your creepy obsession with me is only rivaled by Eriks creepy obsession with Jason.
Must be something in the OPC grape juice e. I don’t “here you around” or address comments in your direction because you have never contributed anything interesting to the convo. Just endless belly aching and whimpering when OL peeps reap what they sow. If you want to have a hard ass blog, cool. But don’t cry like a baby when other people are down to play ball. Grow a pair
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Christ honoring comment, much?
I get it, I’ve got under your skin with my latest comment. But what’s funny is not only are you out of step with your papi. You are out of step with Jason regarding my testicles:
Uhm, you are the one who has a creepy obsession with Darryl, I’m afraid. How many years posting here?
Go ahead, keep trolling away. I won’t get in your way, you’re helping our cause, bud. You really are clueless, as Darryl says. I’m sorry for you.
Peace.
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PS keep up the sound effects too, along with the comparisons to Disney characters. They really contribute to the depth of the convo. For real.
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Kenneth,
Have you been able to hook Jason up so he can make $10k the first week while barely working at overcharging old people, the poor, and the government for drugs?
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Kenneth,
Maybe you can sneak a few samples to deal with that aggression.
Perhaps some good old-fashioned Valium.
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Andrew,
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Erik, love your pets, per Sola Scriptura:
Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast,
but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.
LOL, indeed.
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Erik,
Not yet. We have to finish up our license in his state. Couple more weeks. Maybe a month.
We only over charge the government….. Which every patriot knows is OK
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Andrew,
Seriously? First you both want to give logic lessons and now we are policing charity? Wtf is going on around here.
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Kenneth, I find you very hard to have a convo with.
I’ll never have a bad ass blog, but I am public on twitter.
Until next time,
Andrew
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MLD, I will.
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Kenneth,
Maybe Jason can corner the power chair market.
Good luck peddling viagra to medicaid nursing homes.
Good grief…
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ec, the Shea endorsement leaves me with no sympathy. Heck, I once endorsed Jason’s book.
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loser ken, how do you know what the infallible pontiff was intending? I’ve learned much from Jason and the Callers and it is that the pope has the final say. So why do you presume to speak? Pay, pray, obey, losery kenny.
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cw, again loser ken is contradicting his infallible father.
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loser ken, “First you both want to give logic lessons and now we are policing charity?”
From your modem to Bryan Cross’ cap.
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Erik,
Power chair market!!!! Lol! We don’t pedal viagra. We don’t target old people. Mainly do business with the military. I’m sure Jason will kill it.
DGHART,
Because I can read what he said….. In context. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist
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DGHART,
Ironic that Andrew and Erik give him such a hard time….. Only to unwittingly do the same schtik on me. Where are their hats?
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Someone asked about my headgear?
What I find funny is that when I asked Winny to tell me what he wanted to talk about, he went for my nuts.
Creepy much?
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DGH, I just wonder who said anything about policing charity?
I just wondering if Winny bringing up my nads in a theology discussion was honoring to Christ?
Like usual, he is radio silent. katniss doesn’t talk to me b/c he has nothing to say. Again.
Don’t mind me while I do this, ms. Katniss Everdeen.
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Um, what is the point in all of this?
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I can’t help but note the irony that the Romanists who post here tell us that if we read Francis in context he clearly doesn’t mean what we think he means but then they go all skeptic when Protestants insist that such can be done with the Bible. And so the Roman Church always remains more perspicuous than the biblical text. Simply amazing.
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loser ken, but when Luther did that he got in trouble. This really is like debating a Yankees’ fan.
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MC, this is what this is.
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Robert, you got there first. CW’s is still the quote of the month.
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Robert,
I’m sure you understand that there is a difference between reading a speech, said in our own day and age, and synthesizing over 60 books, written in an ancient language, with no original manuscripts, in numerous genres, and no table of contents page signed off on by the author.
Simply amazing that you don’t see the difference
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Kenneth,
I’m sure you understand that there is a difference between reading a speech, said in our own day and age, and synthesizing over 60 books, written in an ancient language, with no original manuscripts, in numerous genres, and no table of contents page signed off on by the author.
Simply amazing that you don’t see the difference.
What is amazing is this statement, which assumes that God cannot be perspicuous in His revealed Word but can be in the statements of 2,000 years of church history when Tradition has never been identified (i.e., where’s the “table of contents” for that), conflicting theologies of salvation are allowed (Monism vs. Thomism), neither liberals nor conservatives are excommunicated, and so on.
Simply amazing that you think Trent’s view of Protestantism can be reconciled with V2’s.
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Then we all agree. This is –
simply amazing…
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O I C
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Darryl,
I’m proud to state that I’ve never worn Ed McMahon’s clothes.
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MC,
T M I
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Robert, how about Hank Kingsley?
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simply amazing…
Hey now!
It’s all coming together now…
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The pope isn’t even sure what he means. He doesn’t even try to close the loop, the whole point is to put it out there and ‘see’ what God does with it. The prot-cath’s are so fundy about their papal interpretation. They have absolutely no reference for the ‘movement of god among the people of god’.
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Robert,
We aren’t discussing any of your pet topics. You didn’t comment on molinism, discipline, or Tradition. You said that scripture was just as easy to understand as this speech delivered by Pope Francis. Clearly false.
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Ivan Mesa @IvanTable
17m 17 minutes ago
“We pastors, we people, are a seriously happy band because we aim to kill sin that kills joy in God.” @JohnPiper
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Creepy Kenneth loving The Drunks on Incest:
Kenneth Winsmann
February 4, 2015 at 7:32 AM
This thread was awesome before it got hijacked by the loud insignificant minority.
I thought the podcast was just as good as all the others. Better, because there was less in this podcast about the podcast and the topic of you two podcasting.
I had a laugh out loud moment when Jason figured out where Christian was going with the incest thing. Pure gold.
For what it’s worth I didn’t really understand what the problem was with brothers and sisters procreation. If you hold to the (near death) neodarwinism or creation, either way the first few humans had no alternative but to inbreed and get the species going.
Jason was (imo) incorrect about brothers and sisters sleeping together being “disordered” by nature. God’s law in this case would not flow from His or our nature. Sleeping with a sibling does not frustrate our natural ends or final causes in the same way homosexuality, masturbation, or sleeping with a parent does. It’s a law of consequence IMO due to genetic defects.
Just my two cents.
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Brandon Addison
February 4, 2015 at 7:49 AM
Jason,
You said,
While I am writing a book, I am not a “conference speaking, Catholic blogging, apologist.”
Exactly, but you *were* all of those things at one time, roughly a year ago.
The Jason giving his emotional journey to Rome is now dropping the F bomb on the regular on a public podcast and saying that he is “bad Catholic” and a “a marginal Catholic.” What happened to the man so assured of his Catholicism that he was on the apologetics trail with the creme de la creme of Catholic apologists (that not even Bryan speaks at)?
It doesn’t add up. You can pretend that you never wanted to be an apologist or that it was only a one-time thing, but your history contradicts that . You’ve only been a convert 2.5 years. You were writing a memoir apologetic as late as May 27th, 2014. You appeared in a recent apologetic documentary about converting to Catholicism. You were teaching classes at your local parish and posting them online before that.
Listen, if you want to make the shift I don’t blame you, but you were speaking at events *less* than 2 years ago (it was actually around 18 months ago). To try and side-step it by saying you haven’t done Catholic apologetics “in a long time” is a stretch. It may feel like a long time because you’ve emotionally moved on from some of those activities, but won’t you admit 18 months is really a short-term time frame for being an apologetic conference keynote speaker?
Point is, there is a pretty stark contrast between Creed Code Jason and Drunk-Ex Pastor Jason, and I think you know that. If you can embrace that and admit that you’ve moved on from your old apologist persona, great. You don’t have to explicitly do that, either, but then you’ll have people that point out the hypocrisy of Jason the apologist and Jason the Drunk Ex-Pastor.
And BTW, I’ve listened to a bit of the podcast to get a sense of it. Sounds like the sort of conversations I would have in college or when I’m letting my lips flap in the security of close friends and closed doors. I won’t pass judgment on what you talk about, but I do sincerely question the wisdom of a man posting these conversations in a public forum.
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The Drunks are finding their audience:
“Stephen Beam: Author of the visionary and the strange. Pragmatic anarchist, artist, & reader. Following Jesus into dangerous places.”
Stephen Beam (@demosthene1)
February 4, 2015 at 8:26 AM
“Can you block Erick? He is like the description of the contentious woman in Proverbs.”
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Kenneth,
We aren’t discussing any of your pet topics. You didn’t comment on molinism, discipline, or Tradition. You said that scripture was just as easy to understand as this speech delivered by Pope Francis. Clearly false.
Oh please. As if Rome allows anyone to read any statement by any pope in isolation from everything every other pope has ever said (except of course where there are clear contradictions, then he wasn’t speaking ex cathedra). I’ve been told specifically on more than one occasion that you can’t read a document like Unam Sanctum according to its authorial intent apart from everything the church has said since then. If this is so, and it is clearly the Roman position that the statements of the past mean whatever Rome says they mean today, then we’re all well within our rights to criticize you for thinking that the pope’s statement is so much clearer than the Bible. Your own RC hermeneutic shouldn’t even be allowing you and Jimmy Akin to give your interpretation of what Francis said in any meaningful way. Neither one of you are the pope.
If you don’t think this statement is irrelevant to apologetics, you’re not paying attention. What about those bishops whose agenda is driven by proselytizing Protestants? Oh wait, maybe they’re aren’t any, which just goes to show Hart’s point that this pope’s statement and nearly everything he has said undermines the entire point of Roman Catholic apologetics, particularly the whole CTC project.
When your pope is heralded as man of the year by every radical leftwing outfit out there, he’s either not supporting the Roman apologetics project or he’s far from being perspicuous.
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Robert,
What you have described above is the hermeneutic by which we interpret the various organs of the Magesterium. The Pope giving a speech does not fall into that category. We read those words just as we read any others. People who are not the Pope can obviously still interpret a papal speech. It’s disheartening how little you understand even after all this time. The level of dialog you bring to the table has become greatly diminished by your question begging table pounding assertions. You used to be good at forming arguments. Go back to the old Robert.
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k-love, millions of victims would appreciate it if you papists could do something about controlling the various organs of the parish priests.
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Millions? Probably more like a couple thousand….. Granted that’s more people than are even in your denomination…. But still
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Ken: “Millions? Probably more like a couple thousand….. Granted that’s more people than are even in your denomination…. But still”
So Ken thinks it’s a big funny joke that children were molested by priests and the church covered it up?
Dude…
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Kenneth,
What you have described above is the hermeneutic by which we interpret the various organs of the Magesterium. The Pope giving a speech does not fall into that category. We read those words just as we read any others. People who are not the Pope can obviously still interpret a papal speech. It’s disheartening how little you understand even after all this time. The level of dialog you bring to the table has become greatly diminished by your question begging table pounding assertions. You used to be good at forming arguments. Go back to the old Robert.
Care to point me in the direction where the pope or Magisterium has infallibly defined the hermeneutic for approaching a papal speech vs. a papal encyclical such as Unam Sanctum?
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Kent, like I’ve said before k-love is easy. If you dig a hole he we will fall into it. A couple of thousand? If the current, active number was as few as 300,000 (size of my denom) I’d be surprised.
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To try and side-step it by saying you haven’t done Catholic apologetics “in a long time” is a stretch.
Well Brandon, when Roman apologetics is a stretch to begin with – Bryan has told us that we prots can never truly know anything about religion, it’s all just opinion for us – guess what? It’s all a stretch and that’s all it will ever be. No conflict there. It’s just our opinion that (Romanism and) its apostate apologists don’t make sense or ever contradict themselves. Woohoo, that was easy.
On top of that our very own resident skeptic, TVD – The Veronian Disciple and lapsed or Jack Roman Catholic – is not happy with the two principiums of CTC being characterized as: Rome is the infallible church Christ has founded and the Pope/Magisterium is the infallible perspicuous – and ongoing – voice of the same.
Particularly in light of the flak that Francis is taking for speaking his mind, which seems to be as open as the comments around here and maybe just as empty as some of them. (ICU2 MC N unnerstan UR pane/diskust at the purerile prot prattling.)
Neither does Kenneth seem to understand that prots – following the ancient church fathers – were there first, when it came to claiming perspicuity for their epistemological justification and authority and on top of it, prots have an objective content to the same, i.e. the Old and New Testament Scriptures.
All the while the perfect church inconsistently appeals to Scripture for their tradition of the perfect pope, but it’s crickets when it comes to even a ToC for either the Lost Apostolic Oral Traditions or the Infallible Ex Cathedra Teachings of Popery. (No, the 1994 Catechism doesn’t count on either count.)
My guess is prot religious opinion is not up to the strain of accommodating the kind of implicit, invincible and ignorant faith that washes away whatever stains of unbelief and inconsistency the holy water and the Sacred Heart of Your Favorite Patron Saint Badge won’t touch. Of course, the respective mileage/time in purgatory might vary.
Last but not least, our token religiously liberal Cognoscenti Elitist opines about screeds on same sex marriage, the Supreme Court obviating the demented conservatives and imputing fascist(?) qualities to both impunious evangelicals and Romanists. Obviously our better(s) knows something we don’t.
And that’s a good thing.
Not that he knows what it is either, but hey let’s not sweat the details.
The Romanists don’t, so why should he?
cheers
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I’m honestly befuddled by the way in which a lot of the RCs around here, such as Tom and Kenneth, bring it down to a “we’re big, numerous, and influential, and you Presbys are small and insignificant.” In what way are the millions of RCs in this country influencing the country toward traditional Christian moral stances on human sexuality and abortion? Around the world for that matter?
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Robert, I think the point is supposed to play well to American DNA, i.e. bigger is always better or the doc prescribes two so I take three. So much for being counter-cultural.
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Brilliant insight straight from loser ken:
“My church boasts more child-rapists than there are congregants in your denomination!”
I’m surprised CtC hasn’t used that on the banner for their website. Who said the Roman Church isn’t Seeker Friendly (TM)?
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Also has the highest number of unmarried (for unbiblical reasons) victim-of-tradition sexually-conflicted clergymen in the history of ever. The most!
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Obviously.
Most is best, CW. Most is best.
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I repeat, out of step with Jace:
Out of step with his pastor, and out of step with reality.
And again, the more the antagonists keep this up, the better. Popcorn is popping, Katniss (dubya).
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Bob,
Your comment exceeded the newly Instituted word count limit, so I just skipped past it.
Cheers
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Andy,
In the comment Jason gives the OPC props for being the last place losers and not seeming to care. Like the fat kid in high school who wears all black and smells bad walking a 15 min mile when everyone else was done in 8. Well…. At least the kid doesn’t seem to care about other people’s opinion. Let’s give him a trophy for his proud suckyness.
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Kenneth, don’t you have homework to do?
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Kenneth, this isn’t Oprah but I want to recognize your courage in admitting your body shape and hygeine defeciencies. It takes a truly smelly man, to still smell his own funk. And at least you know why everyone around you is always crying.
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I’m beginning to doubt whether k-lovelorn has every been to a catholic church — Sean?
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Well, considering Kenneth’s admitted(big stones) struggles, it’s possible he does a lot of back pew, scrunched in the corner, doesn’t really understand Latin anyway, transcendent communing of one. Boy I bet the deacons are glad for those long handled buckets.
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Meanwhile, the Vatican Bank continues its long history of corruption:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/a-look-inside-the-mysterious-vatican-bank-183740667.html
I know, I know, infallibility doesn’t apply to finance. Do as they say, not as they do and all that jazz.
Is that part of the call’s fine print?
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Robert, this is where I take offense. You can’t find a cradle RC who is this pollyanna-not even Burke, and to prove it he’s in Malta. Only fundies turned fundies but with beads and scapulars even tries to sell this stuff.
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Victim of the crisis Sean,
There are Catholics in every parish across the nation “peddling this stuff”. I’ve worked closely with 6 or 7 parishes in houston and easily found great Catholic peeps at every one. Now, they may not have my style or charming manner…. But they still know their business.
You may have known your stuff back in 1958 or whenever it was your were Catholic. But today you are just another senile old man longing for the good ole days when your opinion was relevant
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At least there’s always the sowers rule..
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Come on, Journey boy. What you’re saying is you found some devout old nuns whose smell of mothballs and sweat offset your funk and you have an odiferous communion in the back pew. They also belong to nuns on the bus, but don’t let that get in the way of your ‘sweet’ fellowship. Vat II is a thang. I know that’s a struggle for you, but that’s cuz you wasn’t there. It’s tough going for that Masters when you never went through undergraduate studies. It’s alright, I’ll guide you through as I’m moved by the spigot of god.
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Robert,
Care to point me in the direction where the pope or Magisterium has infallibly defined the hermeneutic for approaching a papal speech vs. a papal encyclical such as Unam Sanctum?
Not really. Look it up yourself. Vatican 1, humani generis, etc. It’s too time consuming and you never learn anyways
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Kenneth,
Not really. Look it up yourself. Vatican 1, humani generis, etc. It’s too time consuming and you never learn anyways
There is no infallibly defined hermeneutic and you know it. You are free to read these docs and come up with your hermeneutic for discovering what has been declared ex cathedra and its meaning and what hasn’t. And so is the liberal RC down the street. And you’re both welcome at the altar because Rome doesn’t care at the end of the day what your hermeneutic is as long as you tip your hat to the Vatican.
Don’t peddle the perspicuity of Rome when Rome can’t tell us how to interpret herself except “just believe whatever we say right now.”
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Kenneth,
The fact of the matter is that for all the whining you all do about the Bible not having a table of contents, at least we offer one even if we don’t impute infallibility to the church. We’re all waiting for a list of defined Roman dogmas from the Magisterium. Heck, a fallible list at this point would be a good one.
Rome’s failure to do this shows that she really isn’t a religion that cares about orthodoxy, for all the claims otherwise.
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Eamon Duffy on Pope Francis in the latest NYRB. Good piece:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/feb/19/who-is-pope-francis/
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Kenneth – Like the fat kid in high school who wears all black and smells bad walking a 15 min mile when everyone else was done in 8.
Erik – You’re a seriously poor Catholic when you make a statement like this. Read the article I posted directly above about Pope Francis’ emphasis on ministering to the poor and downtrodden — the very type of person you mock. You should be ashamed.
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Bryan Cross might be right in his approach to debate & apologetics or Kenneth might be right in his approach to debate & apologetics, but no way they’re both right.
Maybe there’s a reason that convert Kenneth hasn’t been asked to become a contributor like convert Jason.
It could just be Bryan’s academic snobbery, though. Kenneth is unlettered.
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The Drunks give further consideration to banning me:
Christian February 4, 2015 at 11:07 AM
“Can you block Erik? He is like the description of the contentious woman in Proverbs.”
Stephen, the thought has crossed my mind, and you’re about the 20th person to ask me that.
I’m afraid of what it would do to him though. He copies all of the comments he writes here that he thinks are really clever and posts them on another blog where they all pat him on the back and tell him how smart he is, and then he compiles them and posts them on his own blog as well.
Then he comes here and accuses Jason of being narcissistic. It’s all actually rather entertaining.
Jason Stellman February 4, 2015 at 12:48 PM
That’s funny.
Erik Charter February 4, 2015 at 6:45 PM
You guys get off on rambling on about incest and I’m the one who needs banned? I’m the only one keeping this endeavor from becoming a cross between “Penthouse Letters” and “Pee-Wee’s Playhouse”.
You guys can whine & emote all you want, but Brandon & I have put forward a lot of factual assertions. Haven’t really seen any rebuttals.
And my narcissism hasn’t take place in three different denominations and left real hurting people in my wake. .
Guess what: If you have a private conversation, I can’t cut & paste it. You guys are the ones who can’t resist the public spotlight so you keep responding and providing further fodder.
Will enjoy taking Kenneth’s public statements about overcharging the government to several Congressmen once Jason gets hired on.
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Erik Charter February 4, 2015 at 6:58 PM
You guys are of a slightly younger generation so I’ll try to spell it out for you:
Private things – Marriage, children, details about my employer, intimate religious struggles
Public things – The weather, public figures, items of public record, sporting events
When you mix them up and air them all on the internet, s**t happens.
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Erik,
Bryan Cross is definitely in the right. It’s always more effective to dialog with charity anchored with sound logic and reasoning. However, it was my understanding that this was a language that you did not understand. I’ve been told repeatedly that the atmosphere around here was intentional….. Except when you’re spoon fed your own medicine. Then all of a sudden we all need to be angelic apologists careful not to make an inappropriate joke or jab. Give me a break dude. Like I said, if you want to play with kids gloves I’m fine with that. Just let me know.
I was under the impression that we all come here to play in the mud. Don’t cry when you’re not the only one slinging sewage. Like I said to Andy, grow a pair.
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Erik,
Will enjoy taking Kenneth’s public statements about overcharging the government to several Congressmen once Jason gets hired on.
That would be a hoot, seeing as they are the ones who vote on and regulate prices. Nice try though.
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Kenneth,
A direct quote from a pharmaceutical salesman about making $10,000 the first week with minimal effort and a direct quote that his company is overcharging the government might get some attention from the right politicians, especially if filtered through the right journalists.
By all means keep shooting your mouth off, though.
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Kenneth,
I thought you & Bryan were in the same church?
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Robert,
There is no infallibly defined hermeneutic and you know it. You are free to read these docs and come up with your hermeneutic for discovering what has been declared ex cathedra and its meaning and what hasn’t. And so is the liberal RC down the street. And you’re both welcome at the altar because Rome doesn’t care at the end of the day what your hermeneutic is as long as you tip your hat to the Vatican.
This is false. V1 gave very clear definitions on papal infallibility. Humani generis teaches in no uncertain terms that even non infallible teachings that represent the authentic Magesterium demand religious submission. There is no valid liberal loop hole. Again, you have already given up the game in the last thread. You admitted that it is easy to identify our teachings. How could you do that without an easily identified hermeneutic? How could Horton? How could white? How could Sproul?
The fact of the matter is that for all the whining you all do about the Bible not having a table of contents, at least we offer one even if we don’t impute infallibility to the church. We’re all waiting for a list of defined Roman dogmas from the Magisterium. Heck, a fallible list at this point would be a good one.
We offer as much. It’s called a “catechism”. Look it up sometime.
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Erik,
Yes, because no one knows that pharmaceutical companies and the medical industry are making a fortune from insurance companies that negate the principle of supply and demand. I’m sure your congressman will be shocked and appalled lol!
Dear congressman,
Are you aware that the laws that you have passed allow medical professionals to make a large amount of money? This seems unfair.
Sincerely,
Socialist erik
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Erik,
We are in the same church. He just does a better job than I do.
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Kenneth,
There’s what happens to the medical/governmental complex and there’s what happens to Kenneth once his employer realizes he is immature and has no judgment.
Keep doubling down, though.
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The company that I work for is owned by my dad. Struck out yet again. But I’m loving how pathetic you sound right now.
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Kenneth,
Everyone answers to someone.
If you’re not worried, why do you continue on?
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“We are in the same church. He just does a better job than I do.”
Actually he’s all CIP and PIP and it’s over. You’re more fun to talk to. You aren’t very bright and you’re wrong but at least you have some sport to you.
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Kenneth,
https://www.facebook.com/WhiteStoneFaithChurch
So how long until you drop this Catholic nonsense and take over dad’s ministry & business?
I’m sure dad sees all this as just a phase, no?
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Sean,
Well at least I have something going for me!
Erik,
He probably does! Or at least he hopes so… In any case best of luck on your crusade!
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Kenneth,
https://www.facebook.com/kenny.winsmann/about
Why a different spelling of your last name from your dad?
If you’re making $10k a week in pharmaceutical sales (easily, the first week) why are you still working at Del Frisco’s Double Eagle Steak House in Houston?
Why does your dad make no mention of his business?
Something’s not adding up.
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Erik,
All great questions! However, your creepiness is reaching the kind of heights where I feel it’s better to ignore you and continue living my life. Maybe you could hire a private investigator though?
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Kenneth,
This means you’re going away? And not coming back?
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And with that, I take my leave:
Erik Charter February 4, 2015 at 8:28 PM
“With that I’ll make my exit. This whole enterprise is basically for the religiously marginal, religiously disaffected, vocationally marginal, and vocationally disaffected to commiserate. There’s no point in me commenting here anymore. If I listen — which I doubt I will, I’ll post my reviews at Old Life. Read them if you want, or don’t. Word will get back to Bryan and he can deal with his relationship with you on his own. Heck, I’m actually thinking about this all wrong. The further Jason gets off the reservation, the more I should want Bryan to maintain that tie. Never mind anything I’ve said…just keep it up. Just don’t let it hurt the people who care about you, though. That would be a shame.”
http://literatecomments.com/2015/02/05/i-take-my-leave-and-decide-to-let-bryan-jason-and-christian-sort-their-relationship-out/
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Kenneth,
This is false. V1 gave very clear definitions on papal infallibility.
Yes, Kenneth, so clear that if you ask two RCs how many dogmas have been defined infallibly by the pope, you’ll get agreement. You know that is not the case.
Humani generis teaches in no uncertain terms that even non infallible teachings that represent the authentic Magesterium demand religious submission.
In other words, it doesn’t matter if what the Magisterium says is true or not, believe it anyway. I guess that means God will give you a pass on the last day for believing error as long as it was taught by the Magisterium. And talk about a teaching that just tells you to check your brain at the door.
There is no valid liberal loop hole.
Except as John Bugay noted, the hermeneutic of V2 and what follows embraces competing and contradictory statements:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/10/ratzinger-for-every-statement-advanced.html
Further, if there were no valid liberal loophole, why so many liberal RC theologians whom the bishops do nothing about? Oh, infallible dogma not infallible discipline. Why don’t you tell us what good that does the people in the pew who see Rome saying one thing and doing another.
Again, you have already given up the game in the last thread. You admitted that it is easy to identify our teachings. How could you do that without an easily identified hermeneutic? How could Horton? How could white? How could Sproul?
All of us, applying a grammatical-historical hermeneutic, can identify what particular councils and popes have taught. The problem is that I have been told specifically that such is an illegitimate hermeneutic. I’ve been told that the Magisterium today determines what Trent meant, not the people at Trent. If studying the historical record you come to a conclusion according to the intent of the Tridentine bishops as to what Trent meant and that differs from what today’s church says Trent meant, you go with today’s church. The original intent of those who were at Trent or any other council is finally meaningless. Talk about a liberal hermeneutic.
We offer as much. It’s called a “catechism”. Look it up sometime.
The catechism has not been declared infallible, so it does me no good. I don’t even have a hermeneutic to pick out the infallible from the fallible in the catechism. So much from the perspicuity of the Magisterium.
Where is that infallible list of dogma and infallible list of tradition again?
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Creepy Kenneth leaving?
I was so enjoying his endless creepy comments.
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Erik, I left DXP a comment, hope that helps ya.
Yo quiero taco bell.
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Kenneth,
Your comments to Erik and me indicate you do not think we are being manly.
Can you please elaborate on your view of what makes either me or him unmanly?
How are we being un-manly, Kenneth?
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“The further Jason gets off the reservation, the more I should want Bryan to maintain that tie.”
E, this had already occurred to me. Just keep doing the occasional updates here, beat the drum slowly, and let Bryan twist on this one. This particular petard named Jason will hoist the hatted one for months or years to come. Or so we can hope. The most likely scenario is that Jason quietly “leaves to pursue other interests” or some future CTC site update magically purges all mention of his slick-headed self.
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But, CW, the upside is that Jason isn’t capable of doing anything quietly. Too much narcissism to fade away. A perpetual bee in the Crossian bonnet.
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Robert,
First you say there is no hermeneutic, and now you say there is one but it’s no good. Which is it? Does the hermeneutic not exist, or is it flawed for making one “check their mind at the door” and being ambiguous? Make up your mind and get back to me.
What good does infallible dogma do those in the pews…. Well, quite alot. Religious certainty is pretty valuable. What harm do liberals and heretics do to those in the pews? I am not sure. I would guess that it varies from one instance to the next. Our leaders will be judged one day for how they looked over their flock. I’ll leave it to God.
You said that “Even a fallible list of dogma would be welcome”. There ya go! The catechism is technically a fallible list of infallible teachings that commands religious submission via the authentic Magesterium. Request granted.
We don’t have an “infallible list of infallibly defined dogmas”… No one does. However, what we do have is defined dogma. As Cletus always reminds you, even one is better than 0
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DGH’s idea that Kenneth is simply a NY Yankees fan holds some sway with me.
As we concluded at that link, OPC is most definately the Pittsburgh Pirates, even if I still think DGH makes a mean Billy Beane..
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Oh, and Kenneth, no need to respond to my question about our manlienss. We know you know nothing of us, and all we know of you is your comments here and what we can find by stalking your FB page.
Funny, if you don’t want people inquiring about you, then why do you maintain a public blog? Is that just you trying your best to be a hard ass blogger or something? Compensating much, yo?
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Kenneth, if I was choosing between evanjellyfish and RC, I might go RC. And though the PCA is not a great example(depends on the church) there is another option. However, if you want to argue Cross’ CIP as the bridge that brings you home to Rome. Not only is it sophomoric from a philosophical perspective but it isn’t representa tive of Rome. Vat II happened, I was there, I was raised, catechized andtrained in the what, why and how of all things RC. CtC isn’t responsibly representative of RC. I’m closer to Francis than either you or Cross can claim. That should tell you volumes about what you and Cross don’t know or refuse to submit to acknowledge about your new home. It’s still more my home than yours and I moved out over two decades ago
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Kenneth, you and Cletus, you aren’t the same person, are you?
Because I swear, you and him post in pairs.
Do you know anything about James Young? I actually think he’s an onine entity that doesn’t exist.
My main theory right now is that he is you, kind of like how Token Woman is likely Susan (does Susan exist?).
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If you are not Cletus, Kenneth, then totally, my bad. I just thought maybe you picked up some of Kevin Failoni’s tendencies (pseudonym posting), you know, the guy that the stellmanistas told to go hang himself?
Last I saw, he’s hanging around Bilbo’s blog. Is Mikel what being a man looks like? I wonder..
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Kenneth,
First you say there is no hermeneutic, and now you say there is one but it’s no good. Which is it? Does the hermeneutic not exist, or is it flawed for making one “check their mind at the door” and being ambiguous? Make up your mind and get back to me.
When the hermeneutic can mean anything you want it to mean, its useless. It might as well not exist. And a hermeneutic that says you can believe whatever you want—which is the de facto hermeneutic absent church discipline—is liberalism. To be fair, there is a hermeneutic—implicit faith. IOW, “check your mind at the door.” Which just goes to show that the entire project of RC apologetics, particularly of the CTC variety, is absolutely pointless. All you have to give is nominal assent.
What good does infallible dogma do those in the pews…. Well, quite alot. Religious certainty is pretty valuable. What harm do liberals and heretics do to those in the pews? I am not sure. I would guess that it varies from one instance to the next. Our leaders will be judged one day for how they looked over their flock. I’ll leave it to God.
The church is specifically tasked with disciplining her members and, try as you might, that can’t be separated from defining dogma. Defined dogma that isn’t enforced isn’t defined. Many people complain about Protestants having a paper pope. You all have a paper pope par excellence—statements that nobody enforces except through vague “if you don’t believe this you are excommunicated (but we’ll keep giving you the Eucharist, wink, wink).”
You said that “Even a fallible list of dogma would be welcome”. There ya go! The catechism is technically a fallible list of infallible teachings that commands religious submission via the authentic Magesterium. Request granted.
We don’t have an “infallible list of infallibly defined dogmas”… No one does. However, what we do have is defined dogma. As Cletus always reminds you, even one is better than 0
Well thank you for making the case for Protestantism. You all complain about the notion of a fallible list of infallible books (not my preferred way of stating it) and that is what you are offering me.
And as Cletus continually overlooks, I can give lots of defined dogma. But since one is better than none:
“I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the father but through me” (John 14:6).
But if it makes you feel better to believe that SOMEBODY has all the answers even if they withhold them from the people in to whom care for their souls have been entrusted, I guess that explains it all.
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ken makes me wince, “What good does infallible dogma do those in the pews…. Well, quite alot. Religious certainty is pretty valuable. What harm do liberals and heretics do to those in the pews? I am not sure. I would guess that it varies from one instance to the next. Our leaders will be judged one day for how they looked over their flock. I’ll leave it to God.”
How can you be so nonchalant about the biggest and baddest truth nurturing institution in the world? You leave it up to God? Does that happen when you judge your father’s ministry? Are you so nonchalant about Protestants? Why not apply your on-line presence to your bishops? Remember this?
Did your wife serve you a double-helping of lame last night?
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Sean, ken makes me wince is the Yankees fan who knew not Joe Pepitone.
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Darryl,
To be fair to Kenneth, it’s really hard to reconcile Trent condemning us all to hell with Francis’ “who am I to judge?” Not that he would admit that, however…
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It’s somewhat revealing when this guy is who kenneth makes us wince turns to, when he’s up against the ropes.
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Bryan Cross is definitely in the right. It’s always more effective to dialog with charity anchored with sound logic and reasoning
We are in the same church. He just does a better job than I do.
Which is just the problem Word Counter Kenny.
Bryan assumes what he has to prove, and bails when challenged with the magic phrase “question begging”. IOW the sophist imitation of a philosophical argument. That’s when he isn’t telling us “nothing I have said has been contradicted by your critiques of Rome” and complaining because we didn’t make a formal argument – which oddly enough, he never does either.
It’s all smoke and mirrors. If you can wade through the verbiage (“word count” for the barely-literate) and buy into his suppressed premises and circular reasoning, why of course it makes sense.
But as Bryan ought to know, a valid argument is not necessarily a true one and at one time he actually admitted it was necessary to go to history, philosophy, patristics and Scripture and see if the data harmonized with the paradigm. Once was enough though and then he was back at the usual.
Which is why all Bryan’s talk about charity and sound reasoning doesn’t amount to a real love for the truth.
But yeah, he does it better than you do.
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Kenneth – Bryan Cross is definitely in the right.
Erik – But hey, when is that not the case?
Good advice Chortles. I’ll observe & document from here. Bryan has his informants so word will get back to him.
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Victim of the Crisis Sean,
if I was choosing between evanjellyfish and RC, I might go RC. And though the PCA is not a great example(depends on the church) there is another option.
I think that your priorities are disordered. Isn’t sola fide the doctrine by which your sect stands or falls? Your last comment seems to suggest that you are a victim of ecclesial consumerism. You just pick out what you like and ignore or avoid the rest. That is the very essence of liberal Christianity.
However, if you want to argue Cross’ CIP as the bridge that brings you home to Rome. Not only is it sophomoric from a philosophical perspective but it isn’t representa tive of Rome. Vat II happened, I was there, I was raised, catechized andtrained in the what, why and how of all things RC. CtC isn’t responsibly representative of RC.
You need to be careful not to take a small snapshot of history and project that image as the “and all be all” of Rome. Yes, you are old, and you have memories that I do not. However, most of the chaos that followed V2 has largely been put down. V2 happened, but its impact and relevance is far from established. If you had been born at the height of the Arian heresy, would you be convinced that the Church was hopelessly heretical, never to return to the doctrine once defined at Nicea? Only if you were a fool!
I’m closer to Francis than either you or Cross can claim. That should tell you volumes about what you and Cross don’t know or refuse to submit to acknowledge about your new home. It’s still more my home than yours and I moved out over two decades ago
Do you hold to sola fide? sola scriptura? Do you deny the priest hood or apostolic succession? Do you still venerate Mary? Pray to saints? If the answer to all of these questions is “no” then you are far removed from what you once thought was your home. Pope Francis, for all his wild interviews, still considers himself to be a son of the Church.
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DGHART,
How can you be so nonchalant about the biggest and baddest truth nurturing institution in the world? You leave it up to God?
It is not my place to judge our bishops. They are our shepherds. Im just a sheep.
Does that happen when you judge your father’s ministry? Are you so nonchalant about Protestants?
I have never had a problem with Protestant discipline. It’s the lack of certainty that is the issue. You can run your church with all the discipline of the marines….. but who cares if the general is Osama?!? The Church of Satan could theoretically be run by the most devout and staunch serial killers in the world, excommunicating all that break from the slightest teachings, but that doesnt get you one step closer to orthodoxy.
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Kenneth,
Are you waiting tables or making $10k a week selling drugs today?
And why is your last name spelled differently than your dad’s?
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Kenneth – Yes, you are old
Erik – Yeah, but you should see Mrs. Sean…
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More needling from Kenneth on a Journey:
Queue the creepiness charge simply because I read things said in these forums. Wow, I probably should be sued since I care how my religion is talked about, in public forums, and the people who mock it like Jason and Christian and their followers like Kenneth.
How pathetic.
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Kenneth, you have no idea how all over the map you come across. I have no idea where this journey you are on is leading you to, but your whole attitude towards religion on the internet strikes me as particularly odd and out of taste. You like to challenge people to answer what you think are the smoking gun questions of protestantism, without ever hinting that your tradition faces huge questions of it’s own. These aren’t small matters, so sure, props for trying.
I just wish you would do something useful for a change. Like your homework.
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“What harm do liberals and heretics do to those in the pews? ”
Liberalism is incompatible with roman catholicism? Says who?
Perhaps you want to set this guy straight?
Now I certainly don’t believe that Fr. White is a closet protestant, however, surely you can see the difference between how he expresses roman catholicism and the folks at CTC express it. In Fr. White’s formulation, Fr. McBrien isn’t a crazy heretic. Curious no? If everything after the gospels and Nicene Creed is embedded in a hierarchy of truths, where does certainty come from? Again, reading Fr. McBrien in light of Fr. White is instructive,
Now I suppose you know better than these priests and theologians. But how can you be sure? Are you certain? How do you know without relying on your own private judgment? If White’s reading of the magisterium is correct, and after the Nicene Creed and Gospels, everything is up for grabs, where does that certainty come from? How can I be certain that your reading of the magisterium is really the right one and not the guys who have devoted their lives to studying and teaching Catholic doctrine? “Because they’re liberals, and RC Sproul would spot them a mile away” doesn’t cut it.
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Down the rabbit hole Ken, I’ll alert the brothers at Sexton house and the religious at OST that you’ve declared V2 consequences, ‘put down’. They’ll be…….tickled. Tickled’s the word for it, followed by belly laughter and talk of someone letting Francis know. Yes, Francis is a ‘son of the church’ where Vat 2 is a historic reality with ongoing hermenuetical and magisterial interpretive sway. He most certainly is THAT son of the church.
Like I said, you’re not too bright(easily convinced by first year logic), and understandably disenchanted with your evanjellyfish upbringing. I get it. So, settle in, use deodorant, don’t get drawn into discussions with the celibates about “what’s it like?” and watch me be right, over and over and over and over………………………………..
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ken makes me wince,
Don’t you see the problem? Protestants are defective because they lack certainty. RC bishops have certainty. But RC bishops screw up.
So how much certainty do you have (though I understand not wanting to ask too many questions about the bishops — questioning breeds uncertainty; paradigm goes BOOM!)?
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Robert,
When the hermeneutic can mean anything you want it to mean, its useless. It might as well not exist. And a hermeneutic that says you can believe whatever you want—which is the de facto hermeneutic absent church discipline—is liberalism.
If there is no hermeneutic, then how is it possible for White, Sproul, Geisler, Horton, Krueger, etc. to cite and engage RC dogma so accurately? Didn’t you just admit last week that it was easy to know what the Church teaches? You already gave this argument away with that admission.
If you think the hermeneutic can mean anything you need to prove that assertion. So far you have produced no argument. You’ve just flip flopped between there being no hermeneutic, to there being a bad one, to there being a useless one that may as well not exist. Organize your thoughts and get back to me.
The church is specifically tasked with disciplining her members and, try as you might, that can’t be separated from defining dogma. Defined dogma that isn’t enforced isn’t defined.
So here your argument is that if Congress passes a law, say no driving over 80 mph, but only about one third of the police enforce this law….. Then No law was ever passed in the first place? Or that therefore civilians can never know the law? That’s just nonsense.
Well thank you for making the case for Protestantism. You all complain about the notion of a fallible list of infallible books (not my preferred way of stating it) and that is what you are offering me.
Not quite. We offer an infallible list of infallible books (scripture). But we don’t offer an exhaustive infallible list of every single teaching in scripture. Such a list might not even be possible.
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Sean,
“I’m right because I know people who (supposedly) agree with me” is not an argument.
Fail.
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DGHART,
ProtestantISM is defective without certainty. Not individual Protestant believers. Individuals can be “defective” in either camp. It’s called sin.
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Ken boy, I was there and got the training, the education, the shirt and the pedigree and commiserate with others who have the same and you didn’t and don’t. That’s one hell of an argument. Try again.
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Nice, three comments from Katniss. Three comments I don’t have to read!
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Maybe David R can come back to talk Repub? Or even Doug Sowers. Anything but this Katniss stuff.
BORING
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Katniss,
Howz homework coming?
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Sean,
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
What was that you were saying about elementary logic?
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If congress passes a law saying no driving over 80 and there is no penalty for speeding, then the law is meaningless. If the there is a penalty and it isn’t enforced, then it really isn’t against the law any more. This isnt just hypothetical. We have lots of antiquated laws on the books that we simply ignore because we’ve forgotten about them or it is too much of a hassle to change them. The penalty/award is part of the law…they really can’t be separated.
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Katniss, authority:
Ken child, we’ve al done the irreconcilable premises bit. It’s not an unfamiliarity with logic, it’s a resistance to futility and boredom. I’ve done the CIP-PIP with the reigning internet trads. This is about life on the ground, experience(yours is limited), religious angst(your current driver) and bowling shirts(your papi and I were on the same team-Vat II-liberation theology-Jesuit trained). Really, really round circles on a chalkboard doesn’t necessarily an accurate assessment make. So, what were you saying about what you think you know about a thing you weren’t there to hear, read, receive and believe?
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Sdb,
Of course they can. Perfect example. 1920s prohibition era. Huge majority dissenting from the law, dirty cops and politicians everywhere, and only a small minority arresting people and carrying out the agenda. Does that mean there just were no laws against drinking? Or that no one could ever know what the law was? Obviously not. The law of the land was known by everyone…. They just didnt care. Just because Capone and nucky johnson could point to dozens of dirty judges, politicians, and police, it ultimately didn’t help them avoid prison.
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Sean,
So you don’t care about logic or reason but would prefer to talk about subjective perspectives and opinions based off personal experience? You sound like this Mormon guy I know
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Kenneth – If you think the hermeneutic can mean anything you need to prove that assertion.
Erik – All sorts of Catholics teaching & believing all sorts of contradictory things administer & receive the sacraments, without temporal consequence.
Assertion proved.
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Kenneth stepped in it
Perry: I Stepped In It: http://youtu.be/6xmmCyB5dtI
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Loser Ken, yes, you have it. I don’t care about reason or logic. I don’t care about reconciling irreconcilable premises. I really, really don’t. I don’t care about discussions with prot-cath’s who end up taking shelter in noumenalism. I really, really resist it. You sound like a bunch of fundies I know.
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Kenneth argues the 21st Century Catholic Church is akin to a renegade American society under prohibition.
O.K……………
Maybe we should just stand aside and let him take over?
Kind of like just letting Jason go on and on.
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Sean,
In a similar way, I resist this burning bosom angle you have embraced. I’ve got some charismatic family members that could give you a real run for your money though. They love talking about “personal experience” just like my Mormon friend Ross. Couldn’t care less about dna evidence that Indians were not Jews (irreconcilable premises) just wanted to talk about his feelings, etc.
This is where we reach an impasse. We’re both looking for different kinds of conversation.
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Kenneth,
It’s pretty rich for a traditionalist RC to complain about people not wanting to consider the evidence. The only evidence you are allowed to consider in the traditionalist Roman paradigm is what Rome says the evidence is and what the evidence means. That’s not at all different from what the Mormons or the JWs do. Your whole view entails heeding the Roman appeal to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
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Appeal to authority is only a logical fallacy in formal logic. Virtually your entire faith system is an appeal to authority (testimony). Sean isn’t appealing to an authority, he is appealing to experience…experience you lack and would do well to take heed of his advice. It is similar to the advice Dreher gives for RC converts (or any converts really) who want to grow in their faith. It is similar advice I tried passing on to Bryan, but he already knows everything and has read everything, so he has no need of epistemic humility. Namely, be quiet and concentrate on growing in your faith. 15 minutes ago Jason was a reformed pastor prosecutng a fellow pastor for being catholic, an hour prior you were Lutheran after a spin in pentecostal digs, and the day before Bryan was a reformed seminarian. I get it; you guys have found THE TRUTH (again?) and that’s great. Maybe you’ll see the errors of your ways and be Orthodox tomorrow (or in Jason’s case a recovering Catholic). Maybe not.
Yet here you are…you’ve read Chesterton and the catechism and you are ready to settle a 500year debate with protestants on one hand and ready to condemn “liberal and heretical” priests and theologians on the other…because you know the catechism. This is simply hubris and it will kill your faith.
Dreher was a conservative convert not too unlike you or Bryan. As he dug deep into sex abuse crisis and saw the rot in the hierarchy, his over-intellectualized faith withered.
The sophistry coming from ctc puffs up weak minded intellectual poseurs setting them up for a spectacular fall. I know, I know you are no Rod Dreher. You’ve done your homework. Perhaps instead of striving to win the interwebs you might think about seeking humility…who knows, you might learn something.
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Kenneth isn’t talking to me now.
Do you know what an accomplishment that is?
No applause. just throw money.
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@Andrew
and i thought I was verbose. It would sure make life easier for those of us on phones if you just put in a link…
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Come on, Ken. Spare me the feel good religion tripe of your friends. I’m in a reformed communion because I’m all about the liver shiver. Give me a break. I’m trying to talk with you outside your Catholic Answers, CtC primer material. I was raised in the ‘bosom’ of your new mother. I know her outside of the ‘Merican internet former prot turned RC apologist virtual reality but not so in the parish or bishopric, sphere. IOW, your papi and I inhabited the same RC which you keep hoping goes away or you pollyannishly(sp?) hope is over. It ain’t. Ratzinger was the blip, the fluke, in fact, he isn’t even what you think he is. He’s a german autocrat with expensive tastes, a huge sense of entitlement and a pretty sincere theological commitment to higher criticism. His big pushback against Kung, was simply that Kung resisted his papal authority Convenient. You don’t know what you don’t know. That’s not your fault. But don’t sell your pie in the sky, it works on the internet, prot-cath truth to me. I, in fact, know what you don’t.
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The Drunks are attracting a sophisticated class of listener.
Guys who are mad at Calvinism and write reviews on butter burgers:
https://houseofthedread.wordpress.com/
comradedread February 5, 2015 at 6:58 PM
“There is no God as monstrously sadistic and evil as the god who has created billions of people and damned them before they were born to eternal torture in order to make himself look really awesome to the few he deemed worthy to save before they had even been born.”
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ken makes me wince, so then how do you know when the pope is right or wrong?
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Kenneth also has a great young family who could use his time & attention a lot more than a bunch of middle-aged men who aren’t buying what he’s selling if he went on here for 100 years.
You’re not getting this time back.
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ken makes me wince, people didn’t care about Prohibition?
So hades will not prevail against your church but indifference will?
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Prohibition is not a good example at all. A majority didn’t oppose it and drinking went way down. Maybe a better example is pot law. Is it legal in CO or not? State says yes, feds say no, but they won’t enforce federal law…so it is, but not technically…
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SDB, you’re right. My bad.
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Sdb,
The goal is not to find a perfect analogy. The era of prohibition and the roaring 20s serves to show how discipline and dogma are not one and the same. Poor discipline does not entail an absence of clearly defined dogma.
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Sdb,
BTW I thought your comment at 10:15 was insightful. I will try and make use of it.
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Sean,
Come on, Ken. Spare me the feel good religion tripe of your friends. I’m in a reformed communion because I’m all about the liver shiver. Give me a break.
Earlier you said that if it was between RC and evangelicalism you might go RC…. Which just goes to show you have no real commitment to Sola fide. So, I think it’s fair to ask, why in the world are you Reformed? You don’t seem willing to talk about anything but your liver shivers and experience in a liberal RC era.
I’m trying to talk with you outside your Catholic Answers, CtC primer material. I was raised in the ‘bosom’ of your new mother. I know her outside of the ‘Merican internet former prot turned RC apologist virtual reality but not so in the parish or bishopric, sphere. IOW, your papi and I inhabited the same RC which you keep hoping goes away or you pollyannishly(sp?) hope is over. It ain’t. Ratzinger was the blip, the fluke, in fact, he isn’t even what you think he is. He’s a german autocrat with expensive tastes, a huge sense of entitlement and a pretty sincere theological commitment to higher criticism. His big pushback against Kung, was simply that Kung resisted his papal authority Convenient. You don’t know what you don’t know. That’s not your fault. But don’t sell your pie in the sky, it works on the internet, prot-cath truth to me. I, in fact, know what you don’t.
But you haven’t given me any reason to take your experience seriously. Why does your experience add up to “catholicism is false”. I truly don’t see it
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ken makes me wince, “Poor discipline does not entail an absence of clearly defined dogma.”
For the umpteenth time, this puts the Roman Catholic Church in precisely the same boat as the PCUSA.
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ken makes me wince, maybe Sean’s experience doesn’t add up to Catholicism is false. But what about Richard McBrien and his enablers? What about Cardinal Martini? Kasper?
You have so much more to answer for than your father.
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Darryl,
For the umpteenth time, this puts the Roman Catholic Church in precisely the same boat as the PCUSA.
But don’t you know the significant difference: The PCUSA can’t be certain whether the dogma it doesn’t care about is true. Rome knows with certainty that the dogma it doesn’t care about is true, or at least that it is true for some people (like RCs) but not for others (like Muslims). Makes me feel better.
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Ken, it’s not that complicated. I don’t think broader evangelicalism has much of a commitment to Sola fide or much of anything beyond its own entertainment. Broader evangelicalism is a mile wide and an inch deep. Maybe you understand that frustration. So, that’s what I meant by my comments. If I had to choose between Holy Trinity Catholic Church and John Hagee’s Cornerstone, I’d probably punt and go golf. But if you put a gun to my head, I’d rather inhabit the RC than Hagee’s temple to himself. Fortunately for me, I have an option of confessional prot churches who do placard Jesus Christ and are committed to the apostolic doctrine. They sometimes do it poorly but that’s the way of things with sinners. Jesus has promised to preserve His church and we’re to follow Apostolic doctrine in our consecration to Him. That’s what I’ve taken vows in commitment to. In the meantime, I’m not in the habit of lying to myself about perfect people, churches and paradigms. But, instead, we do have historical circumstances and texts with which to reconcile.
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Looks like the Drunks might be moving to comment moderation, a la The Callers.
Seems more appropriate for the Callers than a podcast where one of the hosts (not Jason) talks about his porn watching & masturbatory habits (which are related).
Meanwhile Kenneth Winsmann (two n’s, not one) can’t resist continuing to smart off about me there, even though I’ve beaten him into submission here.
And Jason looks to be selling cell phones instead of drugs.
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Kenneth, indeed dwell on SDB’s comment at 10:15, here’s the punch line:
this:
Erik,
Even though you have beaten me into submission! Give me a break weirdo. I just decided it was best to not talk to you anymore once you started creating random FB accounts to harass my family (that you creepily looked up stalker style). Quite of the day goes to the drunks
I’m not sure what you think you’re accomplishing here other than making yourself look bad. You and I both know that this is a pattern in your past that you deal with. One time your pastor reigned you in and you swore off the cyberworld. (How long did that last?) The other time your wife banned you from using Facebook. Exercise some self-control before someone else in your life has to step in again.
Creeeeeeeperrrrr
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Anybody know Eriks pastor or wife? Might be time to give one of them a call. The rottweiler is acting kinda strange and spooky.
Has there ever been a PCA serial killer btw? It’s not a common phenomena in your circles right? Probably just another weirdo Internet stalker….. Right? Lol!
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Kenneth Winsmann (2 n’s, not 1) – I just decided it was best to not talk to you anymore once you started creating random FB accounts to harass my family (that you creepily looked up stalker style).
Erik – Trying to outdo Tom Van Dyke in the realm of Old Life conspiracy theories.
I am so in these guys heads right now. They can’t stop.
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If you stand up to guys like Kenneth, Jason, & Christian they absolutely wilt & start peeing down their legs.
Such tough talkers when it’s just them, though.
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Crreeeeeper.
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Kenneth,
First you’re making $10,000 a week selling drugs when you’re actually working at a restaurant.
Now you’re saying I’m setting up “random Facebook accounts” to harass your family.
Can you even remotely begin to prove either of those?
And we’re supposed to take you seriously as a Catholic apologist?
You need to go to Bryan and sit at his knee for a year or to. Say what you want, but he’s a real guy, with a real job who doesn’t go around making wild claims and accusations about himself & others.
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Yeah, I’ve been “reigned in” on the internet.
Obvious to anyone who’s been here the last 2-3 years…
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the latest on bart:
poor kitty
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So my working theory is that 90% of the Drunks audience is divorced women between 25-45 who are ticked off at a lout of an ex-husband (the other 10% are guys like Kenneth Winsmann – 2n’s, not 1).
So last night some woman posts a snarky comment directed at me and I respond, asking if she’s part of the demographic I’ve identified.
Comment gets deleted.
a guy makes a snarky comment directed at me and I respond, making reference to the demographic I’ve identified.
Comment is “in moderation”.
Christian claims it’s not him, it’s probably Jason. Comments being mean to people will not be permitted.
This from the guys who spend half their podcast being mean to people they don’t agree with.
So Jason has finally gone Tim Bayly, giving me a good opportunity to exit. You can’t win a fight with chickens who censor where there is no profanity or threats involved.
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Erik, you don’t get it. You”re the only one trying to “win a fight.” You have some serious issues, dude, not least of which is claiming you’re some kind of “rottweiler” causing us to “pee down our legs.” Ha! Delusions of grandeur much? We’re actually laughing at you. Even some of your own “friends” from here at Old Life, who have written us to make sure we know that you’re kind of a “rodeo clown” over here, someone who is not taken very seriously and has confessed to having past issues on the internet.
Get a grip, man.
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Christian,
Yeah, you seem like I’m not getting to you.
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Christian,
Good to hear someone’s laughing at something related to your podcast.
The stories of you masturbating to porn mostly just make people feel sick to their stomachs.
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Christian,
Tread carefully bro. It’s the rottweiler you are talking about
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Christian,
Would you melt down like this when you faced opposition as a pastor/missionary?
If so, it’s no wonder it didn’t work out.
Where did you go to church during your (brief?) Calvinist phase?
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And Conspiracy Theory Kenneth Winsmann (2 n’s, not 1) can’t resist mouthing off yet again…
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Christian,
Dont give him too much info. He will create 100 fake FB accounts and start trolling your old congregation. He is like a human spam machine.
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Can’t be too careful when your dealing with a creeeeeeeperrrr
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It’s fun debating these guys who, if you added up their combined maturity levels, you would still not get out of the teen years:
Jason (8) + Kenneth (4) + Christian (6) = 18
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Kenneth Winsmann (2 n’s, not 1),
When do you get back to winning us over to your papi?
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First Tom Van Dyke thinks Darryl’s a computer mastermind who can block him from submitting comments from multiple computers throughout the Los Angeles metropolitan area.
Now Kenneth Winsmann (2 n’s, not 1) thinks I know how to create 100 fake Facebook accounts.
Meanwhile both Darryl and I can barely use a mouse.
Kenneth Winsmann (2 n’s, not 1) started out as an up-and-comer but lately he’s coming off like a seriously unbalanced crank.
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Just a bit of advice to any Facebook users—it’s pretty easy for others to see your profile if you don’t have your security settings up high enough. I know that we’ve had to be careful to block access to any except our friends.
That’s my friendly neighborhood public service announcement for the day.
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Robert,
You are probably right. I’ve never had to deal with anyone like this before (the rottweiler) so I’ve never even checked my settings. Thanks.
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But you barely know how to use a mouse? Crreeeeeper……
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The millennial generation is unique in thinking that they can put all sorts of information out into the world via podcasts, blogs, and Facebook and then they act shocked that people know things about them.
Jason & Christian are old enough to know better.
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Yeah, online banking and shopping at Staples & Amazon requires all kinds of computer programming knowledge.
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You need to learn to fold, Kenneth Winsmann (2 n’s, not 1), when you’re holding a pair of 2’s.
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My point in doing all this is to examine the credibility of the Roman Catholic apologists that we deal with here who, in some cases, we have been dealing with for years.
Is Kenneth credible when we look at his day to day life? Maybe, but there are some red flags.
Is Jason credible, given the content of the podcast and his association with Christian?
Is Bryan credible, given his ongoing association with Jason?
If the paradigm is superior, we should see some fruit in the form of superior Christian lives. If not, the apologetic is pretty unimpressive.
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rottweiler,
Everyone here knows the truth. This thread should be renamed “the shameful exposure of Erik charter”. I would be embarrassed too. Do yourself a favor and ask your wife and pastor for help. You need to reach out to someone.
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Maybe I need some of those overpriced drugs you (allegedly) peddle.
I was here long before you showed up & will be here long after you’ve left to go bother someone else.
If you object to trolls, why are you one?
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My philosophy is to go on and on with guys like you as long as you want. Public service to take up your time & keep you from bothering others. So continue on. I’m at the computer for the next 25 years minimum, Lord willing.
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Either that, or I could go 180 degrees the other way and stop dealing with asshats because I don’t have to.
I’ll flip a coin in the morning and decide which one.
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Erik, they think you are the strictest and biggest tyrant of the Reformed world.
They should get to know and spend some quality time with the crustier pietism freaks…
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I’m Alby Grant to the Pietist’s Hollis Greene.
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My first issue of “The Warhorn” from Clearnote Fellowship arrived in the mail today.
That should be interesting.
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Christian, that’s right, you don’t need EC to pee down your legs. Drink enough and have an old enough bladder.
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ec, but if the magisterium doesn’t have to measure up, why should Jason, Bryan, or ken who makes me wince? Roman Catholicism can give us Christian civilization but Roman Catholics are schmucks. Seems exactly what Christ had in mind for his people.
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Don’t try to make sense of it, just bow to the superiority.
After weeks of exhaustive research my scientific conclusion is that RC tools & agnostic tools are just as toolish as our own.
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Erik, we if stuck with Jimmy/Bunk, Win(n)y would have less trolling fodder for his repertoire of awesome comments on this tread.
Here’s our troller, this is his level of sophistication he should like it
Elsa vs Trolling Saruman: http://youtu.be/fc4Y1yyN3Ns
I was going to send the Millennium Falcon drone on daily mail dot co dot uk. Win(n)y, look that up, yo, only one link per comment. We don’t believe in purgatory..
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Kenneth really took a step backwards in this whole sordid affair. I would have recognized him as a jr. Cletus at one point but he’s become the new Tom van dyke. Bryan is in the stratosphere in comparison. Even Jason is ahead of Kenneth at this point and he doesn’t really give a rip. Kenneth needs a weekend reset and a do-over on monday.
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When someone needles you you can’t go all conspiracy theory & lose bladder control. Stay focused, stay on message. These guys want to try to dig up something on me from long ago, but we get refined in battle and learn for future fights. It’s a war of attrition & only the strong & battle-hardened survive. The dude can attest to these truths. Cue the “Braveheart” clip.
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Think of it as the “8 Mile” of theological debating sites.
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What ultimately kills the CTC project (well, many things do, but this just came to me) is that their threads are wayyyyy to long. No one will ever read the convos. And they will only grow. They think their solo/sola argument is the nail in the coffin. What a joke. Their last series of 10 or whatever, and now Tater posts about 5 years a Catholic. They’ve gone soft, I expect my RC’s mean and telling me my heresy is damnable. Not Tater’s mom giving him a high five..
Kenneth, just a fly on a horse’s butt. Nothing to see here, move along.
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rottweiler
You have been exposed as a pathetic joke. Daryl and a few others might give you a sympathetic pat on the back but their private emails tell a different story. Call your pastor. Tell your wife about the bizaar FB activity you need help.
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rottweiler,
You have been exposed as a pathetic joke. Daryl and a few others might give you a sympathetic pat on the back but their private emails tell a different story. Call your pastor. Tell your wife about the bizaar FB activity you need help.
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Win(n)y,
I wonder why you keep posting at this blog.
Thoughts?
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Win(n) y, enjoy this.
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http://literatecomments.com/2015/02/07/what-is-the-roman-catholic-position-on-the-9th-commandment/
Links are all in my blog post.
What is the Roman Catholic Position on the 9th Commandment?
In his blog, “Coffee House Inquisition” we get this introduction:
“My name is Kenneth Winsmann and I am a student living in the greater Houston area. I am studying to be in education but my passion is for theology and apologetics. I’m married and have three beautiful young boys. I grew up in a charismatic evangelical family but developed my theological convictions in the Lutheran (LCMS) tradition before converting to Roman Catholicism. Have you ever attempted a pleasant and mutually enriching conversation about ‘religion’ or ‘spirituality’ only to find yourself trapped, with your feet to the fire, getting interrogated by that jerk who had done his homework? Well, I’m that guy and this is my blog.”
On Winsmann’s Facebook page as recently as early February 2015 (before he upgraded his privacy settings) he claimed that he works at “Del Frisco’s Double Eagle Steak House”, which is apparently in the Houston era.
Appears to be a nice place.
As recently as January 26, 2015 Winsmann has also claimed that he has a rather lucrative pharmaceutical sales position:
Kenneth Winsmann (to Jason Stellman)
January 26, 2015 at 11:32 AM
“Also,
If you are looking for another job send me an email. I can offer you a pharmaceutical sales contract that pays residual income and takes very little time and effort. I made 10k my first week barely even trying. Let me know.”
On February 3, 2015 I asked Kenneth how helping Jason get a similar job was going. His response:
Kenneth Winsmann
Posted February 3, 2015 at 8:47 pm | Permalink
“Erik,
Not yet. We have to finish up our license in his state. Couple more weeks. Maybe a month.”
We only over charge the government….. Which every patriot knows is OK.”
The next day, Kenneth told me that the company he works for is owned by his dad:
Kenneth Winsmann
Posted February 4, 2015 at 10:30 pm | Permalink
“The company that I work for is owned by my dad. Struck out yet again. But I’m loving how pathetic you sound right now.”
Kenneth Winsmann’s father, also named Kenneth Winsman (note that there is only one “n” at the end) made no mention of owning a pharmaceutical sales company on his Facebook page in early February 2015:
Of course, not mentioning a business on a Facebook page does not mean that such a business does not indeed exist. I am willing to give Kenneth the benefit of the doubt on this.
In the past at Old Life, Kenneth Winsmann has told us that Kenneth Winsman (the father) is a pastor of a pentecostal church in Texas. This appears to be true:
Now everything I know about Kenneth and his dad is based on Kenneth’s own public statements at his own blog, at drunkexpastors, and at Oldlife, plus a public search of his own Facebook page and his father’s Facebook page.
Kenneth’s response to my bringing up this publicly available information has been several wild assertions against me at both Drunk Ex-Pastors and Old Life:
Suggesting at Drunk Ex-Pastors that I am a potential window peeper:
Kenneth Winsmann
February 6, 2015 at 4:49 PM
“He means he will literally see you later….. Through your window while you are sleeping.
the Rottweiler.”
Calling me “creepy”:
Kenneth Winsmann
Posted February 4, 2015 at 11:12 pm | Permalink
Erik,
“All great questions! However, your creepiness is reaching the kind of heights where I feel it’s better to ignore you and continue living my life. Maybe you could hire a private investigator though?”
Similarly, on the Drunk Ex-Pastors blog, Kenneth calls Brandon Addison “creepy” after he posted a timeline of Jason Stellman’s public activities:
Kenneth Winsmann
February 4, 2015 at 9:00 AM
“Brandon Addison,
Its super creepy that you have a documented time line on Jason.”
Two days later he makes even wilder assertions against me:
Kenneth Winsmann
Posted February 6, 2015 at 10:23 am | Permalink
“Erik,
Even though you have beaten me into submission! Give me a break weirdo. I just decided it was best to not talk to you anymore once you started creating random FB accounts to harass my family (that you creepily looked up stalker style).”
He continues:
Kenneth Winsmann
Posted February 6, 2015 at 11:03 am | Permalink
“Crreeeeeper.”
Kenneth Winsmann
Posted February 6, 2015 at 12:42 pm | Permalink
“Christian (Kingery) (One of the hosts of Drunk Ex-Pastors),
Don’t give him too much info. He will create 100 fake FB accounts and start trolling your old congregation. He is like a human spam machine.”
Kenneth Winsmann
Posted February 6, 2015 at 12:43 pm | Permalink
“Can’t be too careful when your dealing with a creeeeeeeperrrr”
So, in summary, Winsmann’s response to my citation of publicly available information is to make allegations of my “creating random FB (Facebook) accounts”, which are used to “harass (his) family”, and an accusation of looking up (presumably his family’s Facebook pages) “stalker style.” He also suggests that I send spam e-mail.
These are outright lies. No “random or multiple (Facebook) accounts” have been created by me and no harassment of his family has taken place whatsoever. If he has a shred of evidence to the contrary I would welcome it.
Why is any of this important?
What we have here is a young man who has labeled himself a Roman Catholic theologian and apologist. He regularly interacts at Old Life and on other theological blog sites online. One of the primary characteristics of a credible theologian and apologist is personal honesty. Related to this is adherence to the 9th commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
My belief is that Winsmann, in an overreaction against me highlighting his potentially embarrassing public statements about himself (statements which may indeed be true), and doing basic online research about him and his business interests, has overreacted and gone way too far in an effort to undermine my credibility. As Catholic apologist Bryan Cross would presumably say, Winsmann has committed a classic ad hominem attack against me:
Winsmann is still a young man (not even 30 years old I would guess) and is obviously an intelligent guy. I would assert that he too often shows poor judgment in what he reveals about his personal life in online, public forums, however, and this leads to uncomfortable situations for him when people recall those statements at a later date and attempt to discuss them with him. We all make mistakes and are often lacking in judgment — that’s part of being fallible humans.
The lesson I would take out of this, however, is that when we err in judgment we have to stop, turn back, humble ourselves, and try to make things right rather than making things worse by dishonestly and maliciously impugning people’s character without evidence.
Winsmann is dangerously close to committing slander and/or libel against me, if he has indeed not done so already. This is not an intelligent thing to do against a person with resources, who is also in business and has ready access to attorneys in his day-to-day work. This is especially unintelligent if the slanderer/libeler is making a substantial income that could be garnished upon a favorable court judgment being awarded to a plantiff against the slanderer/libeler.
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In light of this I also want to make a public apology to Tom Van Dyke.
I a post above I suggest that Kenneth has become the new Tom Van Dyke at Old Life.
In no way did I mean to suggest that Tom Van Dyke is a dishonest person. I have actually found him to be quite honest.
What I meant to suggest is that in his style of communication Kenneth has begun to resemble Tom, not in the content of his arguments.
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Erik, he has a history of shooting his mouth off, that Win(n)y. He lied here about me and how he never addresses me. I’ve wanted to got back and show how many in the last few weeks he actually has. He should be grateful for the above, I know I am.
My personal opinion is he is a bully.
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Kenneth,
Back to the earlier discussion….
If there is no hermeneutic, then how is it possible for White, Sproul, Geisler, Horton, Krueger, etc. to cite and engage RC dogma so accurately? Didn’t you just admit last week that it was easy to know what the Church teaches? You already gave this argument away with that admission.
If you think the hermeneutic can mean anything you need to prove that assertion. So far you have produced no argument. You’ve just flip flopped between there being no hermeneutic, to there being a bad one, to there being a useless one that may as well not exist. Organize your thoughts and get back to me.
But there is no disorganization here. In the first place, I’ve been told by other RCs that the individuals named above don’t get RCism correct. All of them, or at least White and Sproul, emphasize that in order to know what Rome believes you have to go to the actual creedal statements and exegete them in their historical context, all the while noting that none of them have been rejected by the Magisterium. I agree. But that demands a conservative, historical-critical reading of the documents, and that is one that I don’t see your Magisterium interested in affirming. If it were, there would be discipline.
IOW, I’m happy to apply a Protestant historical-grammatical hermeneutic to what Rome has said. But it is clear that such a Protestant approach is a Protestant approach. The fact that White and Sproul have to emphasize that such is how we must go about understanding Rome proves that there are a whole lot of RCs, and non-RCs for that matter, who think it is justifiable to understand what RCism is by not using that historical-grammatical hermeneutic. My point is simply this—Rome endorses that broad interpretative view. It has done so at least since V2. There is no way that you can reconcile Lumen Gentium and Unam Sanctum by applying a historical-critical hermeneutic.
Rome simply isn’t interested in reading its own tradition in a conservative matter, except perhaps for on contraception. And there is every side that such is slowly changing. Remember, RCs shouldn’t “breed like rabbits” anymore. (Francis).
Rome is a big, big, big tent. You are part of a conservative wing that is as equally welcome under that tent as radical liberals. The only way that such a tent is possible is to have a hermeneutic that basically means whatever you want it to mean.
So here your argument is that if Congress passes a law, say no driving over 80 mph, but only about one third of the police enforce this law….. Then No law was ever passed in the first place? Or that therefore civilians can never know the law? That’s just nonsense.
My argument is that if you want to go all “superior paradigm” and stress the greatness of the living Magisterium on us, then you need to be able to cash that check. The Infallible Magisterium is no good if it just issues statements and then allows RCs to interpret them however they want to as long as they don’t leave the fold. All you’ve given us is a list of dogmas that is no less authoritative or perspicuous or knowable or certain than anything Protestants have given us.
The dogmas may be infallible, but the big tent hermeneutic indicates that the Magisterium’s interpretation of the dogmas is not, or at least it means that the Magisterium thinks postmodernism “truth is whatever is true for you” is the bomb. Big whoop.
Not quite. We offer an infallible list of infallible books (scripture). But we don’t offer an exhaustive infallible list of every single teaching in scripture. Such a list might not even be possible.
I don’t want a list of ever single teaching in Scripture, I want an infallible list of every single infallible dogma that Rome has thus far proposed. This should not be difficult, but its not forthcoming. It’s because there is really one dogma that Rome embraces—”Just do whatever the Magisterium of the moment says.”
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Robert, thanks.
I poke in creedcode, for old times sake, to see what people like you are up to. My all time favorite comment of yours, responding to that Mikel guy, when he asked you to try to respond for him, what you think his response would be. I think that was the guy who told someone to go hang himself quickly, out on Jason’s blog. This is genius, Rob:
ROBERT December 10, 2014 at 7:00 pm:
Erik and Andrew,
Both of your comments were past the word count limit. Just zipped right past both of them
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Breaking News: Bryan Cross Publicly Affirms His Continuing Support for Jason Stellman
http://www.drunkexpastors.com/podcast-28-yoga-pants-gay-husbands-and-incest/#comment-853
Bryan Cross
February 7, 2015 at 7:45 AM
Erik,
Though I haven’t listened to all the podcasts, the only thing I disagree with Jason about, so far as I know, is his claim that the rest of us at CTC are better Catholics than he is. Also, morality does not include all cultural taboos or norms. In a fundamentalist paradigm, saying ‘fuck’ is a sin. But not in the agape paradigm, within which ‘fuck’ can be said while loving God above all else as Father, and loving one’s neighbor as oneself for God’s sake. Jason gets this, which is why he is rightly comfortable in his earthy humanity, as was Chesterton, O’Connor, Waugh, Greene, and Percy. (Just read Percy!) The saints are very diverse; no two saints are identical. Each has a different set of gifts, a different style, a different personality. Not only is there room within the Church for all these different styles, but we each benefit from them all, and in this way we need and appreciate these different styles and gifts, because they exemplify different facets of the Good, which none of us individually fully exemplify. In short, in the Body of Christ we alI (myself included) benefit from what is unique in Jason’s style. So not only is Jason a friend and brother (though I’m a lousy friend on my end when he’s in need), I’m grateful for everything about him that is different from me.
Also, if you can get a little distance, read through this thread again as if through the eyes of a third-party (if you can), and ask yourself what it means when a self-professed agnostic is so much more kind, giving, long-suffering, gracious, charitable, and (dare I say it) Christ-like, than yourself. What does it say about your paradigm when an agnostic so clearly and obviously out-loves you? Something in 1 Cor 13 seems pertinent. But 1 Cor 13 came after the Damascus road, when a man infatuated and obsessed with the laws, and in the name of the law breathing murderous threats and seeking to stamp out those even in far away places who had entered into the agape paradigm, came face to face with Agape Himself. He discovered that Agape Himself was that to which all those laws pointed. And there and then this man was lifted into a higher paradigm, the agape paradigm, according to which laws are for persons, not persons for the law, because the telos of the law is love, which is irreducibly both Personal and Inter-Personal. If the measure is love, then everything without love becomes a clanging cymbal, not only empty, but off-putting. And a paradigm that breeds and applauds love-less behavior by that very fact refutes and destroys itself, in spite of itself. So if you find yourself in a paradigm in which love-less behavior is bred, encouraged, and applauded, where individuals are continually attacking and devouring one another, where genuine insults (not the affectionate sort) are the norm, where getting the speck out of the neighbor’s eye is everyone’s obsession, then it might be time to reconsider seriously whether you’ve taken a wrong turn at some point.
In the peace of Christ,
– Bryan
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My response to Bryan:
Erik Charter
February 7, 2015 at 8:05 AM
Bryan,
You’re on the record. Very interesting. Would be interested in hearing if you have the same take if you ever do listen to all the podcasts.
I would note that you are likely not a very impartial judge in all of this matter, given the heated nature of our past interactions.
The relevant point I take from your statement is that you are still embracing Jason.
Would you stand by Kenneth Winsmann in light of his potentially slanderous/libelous statements against me? I don’t believe you have any formal relationship with him, but he is a fellow Roman Catholic.
http://literatecomments.com/2015/02/07/what-is-the-roman-catholic-position-on-the-9th-commandment/
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Win(n)y,
Why do you keep posting?
Too many words for you?
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In light of Bryan Effing Cross’s new tack I expect him to the lose the flat cap for a a beanie or a hipster fedora soon. Word. Down with the Vat II struggle.
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This “Agape Paradigm” is quite interesting. It sounds like I could get away with a lot of sins as long as I was non-threatening and expressed love and non-judgment to man and love toward God.
Maybe that’s what Ted Kennedy had?
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Clearly these fellas are uncomfortable with the Machen’s Warrior Children Paradigm.
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Bryan Eff Cross got the agape like his Papi. But can he detect true agape when I eff-bomb as well as Kathy Keller can detect bull leavings? Strange fruit inspector is the hatted wonder.
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kenneth in the rabbit hole making us wince, and can’t tell us how to spell his last name. Long handled deacon bags, yo. Props, sean.
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Robert,
But there is no disorganization here. In the first place, I’ve been told by other RCs that the individuals named above don’t get RCism correct. All of them, or at least White and Sproul, emphasize that in order to know what Rome believes you have to go to the actual creedal statements and exegete them in their historical context, all the while noting that none of them have been rejected by the Magisterium. I agree. But that demands a conservative, historical-critical reading of the documents, and that is one that I don’t see your Magisterium interested in affirming. If it were, there would be discipline.
I have heard Sproul especially give wonderful summaries of RC teaching. Any Protestant preparing for a debate with a RC can easily find what the Church teaches on any given topic. Anyone with a brain wouldn’t go search out random theologians and dissenting opinions. They would go with the official teachings of the Church as asserted by Her most authoritative documents. Simple. That’s why so many respectable protestants can do such a great job charitably representing our teachings. Because they are easy to know and find. As you admitted only a week ago. I would go further and say that you tacitly admit how perspicuous the Church is when you rattle off your favorite Pelosi, Biden, heretical nuns, argument. How else could you recognize all these dissenters unless you knew What they were dissenting from?
Tim Staples just did over at Catholic.com i would love to see you comment over there. Tim hangs around and defends his own work. It’s pretty cool to have a big name guy do that in the comments section. They rarely do. Would you be open to taking this part of your argument over there? (Unam sanctum vs Lumen Gentium) He just posted it so I know he will respond. Change of venue and interlocutors would be refreshing. You only get 5 comments per 24 hours so make them count!
Rome simply isn’t interested in reading its own tradition in a conservative matter, except perhaps for on contraception. And there is every side that such is slowly changing. Remember, RCs shouldn’t “breed like rabbits” anymore. (Francis).
This is an assertion but not an argument
Rome is a big, big, big tent. You are part of a conservative wing that is as equally welcome under that tent as radical liberals. The only way that such a tent is possible is to have a hermeneutic that basically means whatever you want it to mean.
False. There is another way. Have a set hermeneutic but not be as strong in discipline as you should be.
My argument is that if you want to go all “superior paradigm” and stress the greatness of the living Magisterium on us, then you need to be able to cash that check. The Infallible Magisterium is no good if it just issues statements and then allows RCs to interpret them however they want to as long as they don’t leave the fold. All you’ve given us is a list of dogmas that is no less authoritative or perspicuous or knowable or certain than anything Protestants have given us.
False yet again. To continue the analogy, Under the prot paradigm, there are hundreds of different “legislative bodies” each making competing laws and none of them claiming to be the final authority. The degree to which each legislative body enforces it’s laws varies as much as the laws themselves. Under my paradigm, there is a single authoritative legislator. We can know what it teaches easily. Enforcement is a different issue.
I don’t want a list of ever single teaching in Scripture, I want an infallible list of every single infallible dogma that Rome has thus far proposed
Thats the equivalent!
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And Erik is creepy?
#PsychologicalProjection
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Who is “we”?
https://oldlife.org/2015/02/jason-and-the-callers-worst-day/comment-page-5/#comment-299059
We don’t have an “infallible list of infallibly defined dogmas”… No one does.
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Again, who is “we”?
Kenneth, I’m keeping them short for the reading impaired. Do you ever read the words that come from your fingers?
Are you for real?
I don’t trust Facebook, don’t sent me to your online psycho logical projections where you are some hard ass blogger. We get enough at this site, truly.
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Chihuahua,
Thats cute. “we” would be representative of the billion or so RCs in the world.
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But you told me you speak only for yourself?
Or have you forgotten?
For real?
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Ding ding ding!
As I said, you stepped in it.
Not bright, but a good sport, per sean.
You really do believe you speak for all of the people in your church.
Funny, I spoke to Pelosi. She wants to have a few words with you, though she loves your approach here at OL.
For real.
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Chihuahua,
OK semantics king. How about we speaking to “anyone who subscribes the the RC paradigm”. Thanks for another valuable contribution.
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Kenneth,
You’re welcome.
Have a nice day with your beautiful family. Great pics on FB, bud, keep posting!!
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Kenneth,
I have heard Sproul especially give wonderful summaries of RC teaching. Any Protestant preparing for a debate with a RC can easily find what the Church teaches on any given topic. Anyone with a brain wouldn’t go search out random theologians and dissenting opinions. They would go with the official teachings of the Church as asserted by Her most authoritative documents. Simple. That’s why so many respectable protestants can do such a great job charitably representing our teachings. Because they are easy to know and find. As you admitted only a week ago. I would go further and say that you tacitly admit how perspicuous the Church is when you rattle off your favorite Pelosi, Biden, heretical nuns, argument. How else could you recognize all these dissenters unless you knew What they were dissenting from?
The traditionalist version of Rome is easy to find as long as you employ a grammatical-historical hermeneutic, which is Protestant methodology. It’s not RC methodology. From my perspective, Pelosi et al are dissenters, but that demand the employment of a historical-grammatical hermeneutic. Pelosi et al do not, and Rome hasn’t kicked them out. Ergo, either the historical-grammatical hermeneutic is wrong or it is one of many equally valid options.
Whatever the case may be, the point is that the Roman paradigm isn’t any more perspicuous than Scripture as long as this goes on. Your camp is as theologically divided as Protestantism. The Magisterium has largely rejected the traditionalist version of Roman Catholicism. I think that is a dishonest way of reading history, but I don’t blame them. The only way you can maintain that Rome hasn’t changed and is the one true church is to abandon responsible ways of reading history.
IOW, your hermeneutic might be right, but Rome hasn’t said that it is and, in fact, does everything in its power to act otherwise. You need to wake up.
Tim Staples just did over at Catholic.com i would love to see you comment over there. Tim hangs around and defends his own work. It’s pretty cool to have a big name guy do that in the comments section. They rarely do. Would you be open to taking this part of your argument over there? (Unam sanctum vs Lumen Gentium) He just posted it so I know he will respond. Change of venue and interlocutors would be refreshing. You only get 5 comments per 24 hours so make them count!
If I have time, I might check it out.
False. There is another way. Have a set hermeneutic but not be as strong in discipline as you should be.
But Kenneth, you aren’t the Magisterium. How do you know the Magisterium is not as strong in its discipline as it should be. Maybe its laissez-faire attitude is part of the deposit of faith.
Look, I feel for you. If I was RC, I’d be a traditionalist like you. But I couldn’t survive long in a church that doesn’t seem to buy its own hype anymore.
False yet again. To continue the analogy, Under the prot paradigm, there are hundreds of different “legislative bodies” each making competing laws and none of them claiming to be the final authority. The degree to which each legislative body enforces it’s laws varies as much as the laws themselves. Under my paradigm, there is a single authoritative legislator. We can know what it teaches easily. Enforcement is a different issue.
Under the Protestant paradigm, the single authoritative legislator is God and the legislation is His Word, so the parallel is not the same. Our legislative bodies do not identify themselves as infallible, nor do they say that they need an infallible visible church of the nature of Rome in order for people to be able to identify the laws God has revealed. When you claim that you need an infallible visible church to know what the Bible teaches and that the infallible visible church is more perspicuous than Scripture, you don’t get to start sharply dividing dogma and discipline and ignoring the fact that theological disagreement is as prevalent in Romanism as it is for Protestants.
The claim of infallibility and perspicuity for Rome actually ends up undermining your own system, particularly when you complain about Protestant division. The main critique that Rome has is that if the Bible was perspicuous, there would not be division among those who hold to that. If that is true, then division in Romanism destroys the perspicuity of the Magisterium. You simply cannot have it both ways.
Thats the equivalent!
No it’s not. The list of every infallible teaching in Scripture would be far larger than what Rome has thus far defined. Rome should be able to give an infallible list of all the infallible dogma it has defined over the last 2,000 years.
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I can’t say Kenny is making the RCC or himself more attractive but at least he isn’t signing off “in the love of Christ.”
I’m all about finding the silver linings of dark clouds.
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I’m like 10 posts behind at Old Life because I can not get off this thread.
This stuff is golden.
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Starting to think about how I can spend Kenneth’s money.
I might just put it on account at the Westminster Seminary California bookstore and let you all go shopping.
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He’s starting to consider an apology, but his pride just won’t let him quite get there:
Kenneth Winsmann
February 7, 2015 at 9:22 AM
Erik,
If some other random person just so happened to create random FB accounts and harass my family coincidentally on the very same evening when you began to look us all up then I apologize. But I’m sure you can understand why I would be pissed off
Erik Charter
February 7, 2015 at 9:42 AM
Kenneth,
If you will post an apology to me at Old Life stating that you have absolutely no proof that I have created any random FB accounts or that I have harassed your family I won’t press the issue any further. I’ll copy your apology onto my blog and consider the matter closed.
I have no idea what is going on and would not harass anyone anonymously. That’s why I use my real name. Doing things secretly or under a fake name is pointless as far as I’m concerned.
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I imagine he’s on the phone with some Facebook tech support guy in India, desperately trying to prove that I did what he says I did.
Since I know I didn’t do anything I have no concerns about that whatsoever.
Even Christian is being civil now since he’s a computer guy and now realizes he trusted Kenneth when he was really selling him a load of crap.
It’s turning out to be a good day.
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Here is better music than the stupid trombone sound that Kenneth did higher up this thread.
I hereby upgrade pony boy Kenny from Journeyman to Trekker.
Engage, my boy.
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Kenneth,
I’d also like the names of anyone here who has e-mailed you about me OR an admission that that was a lie on your part as well. You can give me those privately at erikcharter@yahoo.com.
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Andrew,
If you want to confess to playing both sides on this, I’ll receive your confession.
You go back & forth between sides so frequently it’s like watching “Europa, Europa”:
If you don’t confess and Kenneth sells you out, I’m done dealing with you on a friendly basis.
If you didn’t do anything, then we’re good.
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Erik,
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Erik, I’m busy with a jigsaw, hanging a new door.
You know how to find me on Twitter. I did nothing of the sort.
Maybe no more comments until Monday?
I’ll say a prayer for everyone who finds themselves in quagmire of theology blogdom.
I’ll be praying, like the Captain, yo.
See you all Monday or later.
Peace out.
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Kenneth,
http://www.cblitigation.com/Practice-Areas-Overview/Defamation.shtml
Watch your back for process servers unless either that apology or proof of your allegations against me is coming soon.
I’ll give you until 10:00 a.m. Monday morning central time or I start shopping for counsel.
We’ll soon find out if you’re really making the money you say you are.
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I’ll maybe even hand this off to Sean to do my legwork.
Contact our Houston and San Antonio Defamation Lawyers
If you have been damaged by slander or libel you may be entitled to bring a defamation lawsuit. If you have been sued for slander, libel, or defamation, you need representation. Contact Carter & Bachynsky, L.L.P. for experienced representation from a Houston defamation lawyer.
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I’m dead serious about this Kenneth.
I’ve seen lawsuits that didn’t even get to trial that involved $200,000 in defense costs.
Unless you have no assets and are this judgment proof you need to take me seriously. I’m not going to have someone make up nasty lies about me in a public forum based on speculation or coincidence. Before you say the kinds of things that you said about me, you had better have proof.
Unless you’re a deadbeat with no assets and no future earning potential, you had better take this seriously.
You have at least 4 mouths to feed, plus your own big mouth.
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Erik, on my laptop, trying to catch up (was on my Nexus 5 earlier).
I have been really busy today. But it sounds like you thought I emailed the drunks behind your back?
Dude, I’m the chihuahua. I’m tired, hanging a door is hard.
Again, man, yo quiero taco bell.
I’ll go read and see what the drunks are up to. NOW, I’m done (emoticon).
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Andrew,
O.K. I’ll cross you off the (real or fabricated) list.
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I’ve got denials from Andrew, Kent, & Sean.
That doesn’t leave too many people whose opinions I would care about — maybe 5 or so more.
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Erik,
Against my better judgment I will write one more post on this and then I’m done.
You have couched your recent activity as “research into public infornation”. While this may be true there are certain societal settings where “research into public information” is creepy and strange. Most of us learn this at a young age. For example, if I went up to one of my coworkers, someone who I had a real life relationship with, and said:
“hey Joe doaks! I did some research into available public information and looked up you and your family. I have some questions about yalls profile info and the spellings of your last name”
This would be considered “creepy” to most people in the world. It’s even more so with strangers or random commentators at blogs who I don’t have a real life relationship with.
Now imagine this coworker of mine found out that on the very same night I was doing “research into public info” on his family, those same family members were harassed by newly created FB accounts. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. But then imagine Joe finds out that I have even had a past of having my family members and pastors try to limit obsessive and bizaar Internet activity. Would it be slander if Joe told other coworkers to watch out for me?! Or called me creepy!? Obviously not. This is just the way the world works.
Now about this libel nonsense.
. If you believe you are have been “defamed,” to prove it you usually have to show there’s been a statement that is all of the following:
published: check
false: you need to PROVE that it is false that your behavior is creepy. You would also need to PROVE that it wasn’t you who created those FB accounts. The burden is on you in civil court. Not me. Now, I would LOVE for you to prove the FB weirdness wasn’t you. My opinion of you would rise dramatically. Unfortunately, I don’t see how you could and the circumstantial evidence is pretty damming.
injurious: Since the whole point of defamation law is to take care of injuries to reputation, those suing for defamation must show how their reputations were hurt by the false statement — for example, the person lost work; was shunned by neighbors, friends, or family members; or was harassed by the press. Someone who already had a terrible reputation most likely won’t collect much in a defamation suit. So good luck with any of that
Needless to say, don’t hold your breath for an apology. I stand by my statements 100%. I perceived your behavior to be creepy. I believe it was you who harassed my family. I believe you should seek out help if you have a troubled past when it comes to this kind of thing. If you don’t like it, sue me.
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Kenneth continues digging:
Kenneth Winsmann
February 7, 2015 at 1:15 PM
Lol first Congress, now law firms. That’s what I get I guess for messing with…. the Rottweiler.
Erik Charter
February 7, 2015 at 2:43 PM
Kenneth,
Lawyers are motivated by money. Whether or not you’ve violated the law is an objective question. If you have and there’s money to be had, lawyers will be interested.
Have you ever been involved in litigation? Do you understand how it works? If I sue you, you’re basically guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around like in criminal court.
You’ll spend money to defend yourself. The state will not provide you with an attorney. If you just ignore it, you’ll lose by default and then it becomes a question of whether or not you have assets that can be attached. This includes a paycheck, commissions, bank accounts, real estate.
None of this is a joke at all, trust me. By mocking it you’re just digging yourself in deeper.
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Kenneth,
Whether or not you think I’m “creepy” is irrelevant. You’re entitled to your opinion.
What is relevant are the specific activities that you accuse me of – specifically, anonymous electronic harassment of people who were not a party to our dispute. Being wrongly accused of doing something like this against an innocent victim is injurious to my professional reputation. Note that I’ve said nothing negative against your father in all this — he is not a party to our dispute. If I go to find another job I don’t want those allegations out in public because I know they are totally false. That’s why I want a specific public apology from you.
I can argue with people like you all day long in forums like this because that’s what people like us come here for. Those interactions are not at issue.
What you have done here is really unprecedented in the 3 years I’ve been here. You really jumped the gun by doing it before you could prove it was me. I suspect that’s why Christian was asking if I have a Facebook account the other night. I do, but I’ve only had it for a few weeks, have like 4 friends on it, and follow like 3 groups. Not a heavy user and not sophisticated in even knowing how to do what you have accused me of.
Facebook has records of where accounts were created from and I am in a specific location. It will be easy to show that it was not me.
10:00 a.m. Monday morning is your deadline. You should seriously consult legal advice.
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Erik, and I don’t play both sides. I just know JGM called RC’s his friends. And said:
Playing both sides, man? Come on, we both hate the yankees. Easy stuff.
NOW NOW NOW im out (Katniss is too).
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Erik,
How could I not take you seriously?! You are…. the rottweiler
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You also woefully misunderstand my professional reputation which is what is at issue here.
CPA, realtor, over 20 years experience, six figure income, squeaky clean public record, Could produce many witnesses to my professional competency and integrity.
A hobby of arguing about theology with knuckleheads is not a crime.
You also seem to misunderstand that if I can hire an attorney on a contingency fee basis, I pay no bills. If you hire a defense attorney, you pay bills from day one. Texas has some form of a “loser pays” system, but this isn’t going to help you if you’re in the wrong.
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Erik,
Yes, I have been involved in litigation before. Which is why I’m laughing at you right now. Lol
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As far as I am concerned, you are both hurting yourselves. So am I by hitting post.
Here, have some OPC reading material. Erik, remember, I’m the deacon, you’re the elder. I get to be more mercy minded. If you really think I play footsie too much with Jason and the Callers, you can always take it up with my presbytery. We are church officers, remember? I hope we act like it out here..
Darryl,
Please don’t delete any comments here, especially if Kenneth asks you to.
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Andrew,
I’m really not that angry with him, but facts are facts and I think that what he has done is wrong.
I poke him, he pokes me, I get it – that’s what we both signed up for. But when he asserts something that is harmful to my professional reputation that is just objectively not true he needs to be held accountable for that.
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LOL
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Yeah, I believe Katniss has a history of exaggerating, and dare I say, lying. He mentions thing about e-mails I sent him that were creepy, back in March, and never sent them to me or backed them up.
I’m thinking he’s more like president snow sometimes. Oh well, he’s trying to win the war against the captial, what’s a girl to do (that Katniss, yo)?
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Alright, the thread officially calls for cake.
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Erik, you need to get a grip. Seriously. You know I’m right. Shut off the internet for a couple of days.
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Sean,
You are right. I have a feeling Erik will drag this debacle on for weeks if I keep responding to his nonsense. I’ll be resolute in ignoring his posts from here on out.
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Sean, as always, you rock.
The Distance: http://youtu.be/v6bUc6XTH5Y
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I’m telling you guys, I’m not emotional about this. It’s about the public record of what’s been written and what the law is. I’m not saying I know all the answers definitively, but I might be willing to find out. My biggest fear is that Kenneth is in reality judgment proof (i.e., has no money). If that’s the case, why bother?
Part of your problem is you have this preconceived notion that I’m irrational and have a history of my wife & pastor telling me what to do. They both might wish they had that power, but they don’t. I’ve been online here consistently for 3 years so if I’ve ever been kicked off the internet it’s news to me. I’ve had one instance here when I got ticked off on one issue and quit for a day or two. No big deal. I later saw that I was wrong about a principle I was arguing for and it all worked out for the best.
Your big problem and Kenneth’s big problem is how direct I’ve been with both of you — you because of the content of your podcast, him because of how I’ve highlighted and questioned his public statements. Your only recourse has been classic ad hominem arguments, which always reveal more about those making them than those they are directed against.
This has been eye-opening for me in terms of the costs and benefits of dealing with knuckleheads, though. Probably time to let someone else take their turn.
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Christian,
Do you like golfing?
Any brand of club you like? I’m Ping irons, nd Taylormade driver.
Just curious.
Missed you since you were here last, amigo.
Toodles.
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Kenneth,
I won’t drag it out. I’ll turn it over to a firm that specializes in online defamation on Monday for an assessment and go from there. If they say I have no case, I’ll drop it and avoid you like the plague in the future.
If I have a case, I’ll weigh the costs and benefits and proceed accordingly.
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Erik, it took me about 8 months watching Katniss over here before I was willing to talk to him again, after he died about me and creepy emails on white horse blog dot com.
Avoid him either way. He’s trouble, Taylor swift knew trouble when he walked in..I digress.
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Breaking news:
I have decided to could term sue Erik Charter for alleging that my pharmacy rips off the elderly and disabled.
Daryl, whatever you do, don’t delete his comments. Objective facts need to be defended. He really jumped the gun on that one. I will be seeking 650 billion gazillion dollars. I hope you take me seriously Erik.
See how that sounds?
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O.K. I’ll cross you off the (real or fabricated) list.
Please, please, cross me off the list too.
You guys are pathetic.
Both you guys – not winsmann- need to grow up and shut up so we can get back to the regularly programmed discussion.
The puerile prattling, fawning and threatening has no compare unless it is CtC combox, the diamond in the manure of Bryan’s eff post notwithstanding.
Why we might even find ourselves agreeing with Kenny.
“Creeper”.
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*counter sue*
Damn auto correct
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*lied
Katniss, you like TS like MJ does, yo? Just curious bud.
Taylor Swift – I Knew You Were Trouble: http://youtu.be/vNoKguSdy4Y
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Yeah, bub is right.
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Andrew,
I love Taylor Swift lol but I haven’t been able to listen much ever since Erik hurt my professional reputation alleging me of ripping people off and preying on the weak and feeble. It will all be corrected soon enough though. Once I get Eriks 600 billion gazillion dollars that is.
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Kenneth,
That’s probably a bad strategy being that you’ve admitted in writing to overcharging the government.
$10k made with minimal work the first week is also not something you want to sell to a jury.
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Bob Suden,
We’re not friends so I wasn’t worried about you.
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Ken, my daughter Megan rushed by when she heard I was playing TS on my phone. She’s almost six, been a fan of hers since she could hear the car radio.
No worries about the lies on Tim Kaufmann’s blog. Water under bridge. At the time, it stung. But you are just a clown, we’re used to you now. Hopefully Jonathan Prejean stays off your case, since you so enjoy posting here.
Shake it off!
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Sorry, wrong Distance video. Here’s the correct.
Bub, how’s life in your world?
Sorry for all the nonsense. Maybe David R can come back and talk of his dislike for Kline?
I’m out.
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Kenneth,
I don’t want to ruin your Sunday with your family.
I’m not going to sue you.
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Andrew,
I didnt lie about you emailing me. I might have over reacted about it being creepy though. I just didnt know you yet. I still have your email in my trash folder I’m sure.
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Kenneth, dig it up and e-mail it to me if you so desire. I purge all my old emails. Creepy that you keep my old ones?
Mebbe..
Just kidding. Who cares, I just think it’s funny that you have this monopoly on knowing who is and isn’t creepy. Takes one to know one?
Nah, I would never say such things(wink).
Peace, man.
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Creepy is Bruce Jenner is a chick. I’m still wrapping my head around that one. I mean, it’s LA and it’s the Kardashians, we should all be numb to it by now. But, Bruce as a chick is take away his shoelaces, death pool, creepy stuff. And now people are dying on the PCH because of it. If Missler or Lindsey were actually any good, this should have made a prophecy conference right along with Locusts as attack helicopters. I’m officially creeped out.
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This thread reminded me – Better Call Saul breaking bad spinoff premieres tomorrow on AMC – I’m sure Darryl will love it. Apropos – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPd67CEL54E
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Cletus,
Wire?
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Chitter Chatter, it’s Mr. Bub to you, capiche?
If you got the goods on Kenny, say so. We gots no problem turning over miscreants to the tender mercies of the government for fraud.
But just because comments are open doesn’t mean we are all interested in the junior high antics.
Make your case and then shut up. (You know, the whole ‘brevity is the soul of wit’ schtick.)
Instead this is turning into a soap opera with the goombahs, prot as well as romanist biting and devouring each other like the trolls were planning on doing with Bilbo.
Besides the jinx is in.
The last person to say he doesn’t read what we post – instead of just ignoring us like everybody else – was Jason Stellman!
And we Know How That Turned Out.
Jase later announces the First Annual Stupor Bowl Party, Bryan was in when it came to the Lakers and the rest is History.
cheers
(6 figure income? Everybody in Washington running the country has a 6 figure income. Which is why the country is going to pot. All the little piggies are at the corporatist/govt. trough. Better make sure you’re not one, pal.)
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PS How do you afford cable? Are undercover cops like you really that well paid?
Queue Bub’s keep it down..
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Bob, I do not work for the government, but if you can point me to a 6 figure government position I am willing to learn.
Today was the pinnacle of my Kenneth, Jason, Bryan work. I’ll pass the torch on.
Bryan affirmed his agape love for Jason so what more can I do?
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But, Sean, he was really something back in the day. http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/little-chocolate-donuts/n8655
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Next time I have the urge to rumble with 3 catholics & their agnostic friend I’ll just go look for a family of rabid wolverines down by the river. Same temperment.
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Today was the pinnacle of my Kenneth, Jason, Bryan work. I’ll pass the torch on.
Great/bout time.
Bryan affirmed his agape love for Jason so what more can I do?
Shut up. Basking in the glory is a strictly non verbal affair.
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Muddy, it’s the cigarette that seals it for me. If only he had grown fat and out of shape. I just never saw the Laryngeal shave coming. I was already anticipating a tragic consequence and sure enough now people are dead, on the side of the highway.
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So you are not going to sue now, Erik? That is shocking. I was taking you so seriously too.
Does this mean you are also going to stop emailing everyone trying to figure out if I’m lying or not?
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I like the Chihuahua label, almost as much as girlfriend.
I’m now going for creepy girlfriend, if that’s alright with everyone here. I’ll drop the good golfer psychological projection.
Who’s next? Thoughts, Bub?
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Christian, yeah, my boyfriend is just joshin’.
Don’t lose sleep, this is the interwebs.
Let it go, yo.
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Let’s talk about something else. What’s everyone’s favorite type of pancakes?
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No fun cdubs is jealous I’m Erik’s GF, and not him
Fatal Attraction (6/8) Movie CLIP – Not Going to Be Ignored (1987) HD: http://youtu.be/JS6Gw6NVgRg
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cw, the kind I find on the beach when I’m walking there at sunset.
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Cdubs, pass the hominy?
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I like waffles. I particularly like the waffles because the syrup and whipped cream pools in the little boxes. I would like to add, at this creepy moment, that I don’t like or want the waffles that might influence one to get larynengeal shave. But, I think that’s more linked to pancakes, so, waffles are my thing.
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What I want to know is if the pope can make pancakes infallibly. Do they turn out light and fluffy every time?
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Robert, I have a pic of one of my old prof’s making waffle/pancakes in a courtyard at Vat City. Not sure if the Papi’s charism extends to breakfast but I wouldn’t bet against my old prof. Since Francis is all synodical maybe he can pass it off as his own.
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As usual, I’m with Muddy.
donuts, (drool)
https://oldlife.org/2015/02/jason-and-the-callers-worst-day/comment-page-8/#comment-301689
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French toast guy here. Make ’em every Sunday. But my son doesn’t appreciate their culinary nuance because he spreads peanut butter on them along with enough syrup to burst a dam.
Yes, I think this conversation is going much, much better.
Now let’s sing “Sunday Muddy Sunday.”
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Christian, E-mailing? We all need to be mindful that when this all takes place in public we could attract erstwhile “helpers” and Imposters who are far crazier than us. Maybe that’s what happened with Kenneth’s relatives. I’ve e-mailed Bryan a couple of times about Jason but no one about you that I can recall.
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No offense, but you are only a pawn on the chessboard on which Jason is at least a bishop
No one really cares what you say or think, only Jason’s reaction to it.
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You guys get a rabid theonomist or federal visionary on your ass*s and it’s Katy bar the door. I can not be responsible for the actions of everyone on my “team”. Some may not have the agape paradigm. Which is why mouthing off constantly may not be the way to go.
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Oh, I thought when you emailed people to see who is talking to “the drunks,” that meant me too. My bad.
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French toast. With bacon. And a Screwdriver. You know, because I have a reputation to uphold.
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Christian, should we not refer to you that way?
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I like it.
I’m just pointing out Erik’s ability to lie in front of people who know he’s lying. I assume it bothers him, but I guess there could be some element of sociopathy to his personality, or perhaps his pride is just more important to him than his integrity.
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Cool.
You seem better than Barney humble to me.
I feel like I’m Homer. I aspire to be Flanders. Remember the image of this post.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/1271
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The lapsed Episcopalian used to make us buckwheat pancakes in his early 80s health food phase. (I wanted to get him some corn nuts for Xmas this year for old time’s sake, but couldn’t find any in the whole salty snack isle at Meijer. As providence would have it after the gift exchange, the Shell station up the street from his condo had some at the register. Doh.)
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Christian,
O.K. Now this is getting interesting.
First off, if you object to being addressed as “The Drunks”, you probably want to change the name of your podcast.
Second off, There is truth to my e-mailing some people to see if they have been e-mailing you. Those people are “my people”, though, not “your people”. The way I was reading you, I thought you meant I was trying to contact your friends or something.
I have an “inner circle” of Old Life friends that I communicate with in a way that I assumed was confidential. When you made reference to receiving e-mails about me I called them on the carpet and asked if it was any of them. Interestingly I received 4 denials and 3 non-responses.
We could have a mole in the Old Life inner circle, in other words. If we do, it will change Old Life going forward. The plot thickens…
If you actually have e-mails from someone in that inner circle that is something that you can hold over them because all of these guys are purporting to be NAPARC church members and officers in good standing. Choosing your side in all this would be extremely damaging to their credibility and people’s impressions of their integrity going forward. No one will trust them with any sensitive information in these ongoing debates.
#DoubleAgent
None of this explains why you would care that I was e-mailing my friends about you, even if they are only supposed friends. So what?
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Just so everyone knows the score (this is like a game of “Clue”):
Denials that they are e-mailing The Drunks (I got my count wrong – it’s 3 denials and 4 no-responses):
Sean
Chortles Weakly
Kent
No-Response:
Zrim
D.G.
Muddy Gravel
Amish Ambush
So either:
(A) Christian is lying and no one is guilty
(B) One of the deniers is lying and is guilty
(C) One of the no-responders is either guilty or is not-guilty
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One thing people don’t get about me is that if I have to lie, be devious, or do things anonymously I’m not going to bother doing it. What is the point of going about religious-themed debate in a devious or non-straightforward way? It’s an oxymoron. If you do it that way you’ve already lost the debate before it starts. What you see from me is what you get.
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Erik,
Dont you think it’s possible that people reading this are finding your behavior off putting enough that they feel obligated as officers in good standing to apologize for your actions? It has been pretty extreme and out of character for you. Just a thought….
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I’m throwing my lott in with authentic Belgian waffles with bacon and eggs
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Christian,
If you really have the e-mail I’m thinking you have, post the first sentence of the 4th paragraph here and I’ll know that you are not lying and one of the seven is guilty.
I won’t ask you to give up the leaker’s name (if they really exist) because frankly I think they’re a gutless snake and I like the idea of you having leverage over them.
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Kenneth,
I could go there if they are merely weighing in privately on my public posts. We don’t march in lockstep.
Pretty much everyone, Catholic or Protestant, can agree that sharing the content of ostensibly private e-mails is not acceptable.
There’s also a chance that whoever is behind this is the one messing with your family in an effort to make me look bad. If they’ll share private e-mails why wouldn’t they mess with innocent people, too?
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Kenneth,
You have to grant that the point I got extreme with the lawsuit talk (which was about 80% just seeing how you would respond) was when you accused me of something heinous that I absolutely did not do. How do you respond when you are wrongly accused of something serious of which you are not guilty?
All I’ve done beyond that in this whole exercise with you, Christian, and Jason is highlight your own public statements on podcasts and on public websites. Anyone can do that. None of it is private and not in the public domain.
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All this is making a Lutheran Church seem really appealing,,,
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Updated Scorecard:
Sean
Chortles Weakly
Kent
Amish Ambush
Muddy Gravel
No-Response:
Zrim
D.G.
One more possibility: Andrew – He’s on the denial list but is not in the group. Contacts me through Twitter. If he’s the “informant” I have no concern about that. I share nothing private with him.
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Erik, you can tell me to mind my own business and I won’t post another word to you on this subject.
Now you’re friendless, so to speak. Why? Because you treated Jason like prey. Why? Is the loss of him to the Reformed church so lamentable that you chase him like Costanza chased the girl who “couldn’t stand him?”
It doesn’t matter that the podcasts are public, preying on him like that is wrong and off kilter.
And did you give one thought to this being DGH’s blog and that as a regular here you’re the servant, not him?
You do seem an honest man to me.
Lastly, this post wasn’t really about Jason, it was about the train (as JoeM notes) known as Francis coming down the track.
Don’t have anything more to add except that I wish you peace and I love pancakes with blueberries. Not in the batter though. They screw everything up. Just over top the melted butter and syrup.
P.S. Robert, papal pancakes are consistently light and fluffy. The recipe, however, is part of the nuncupative culinary magisterium. 🙂
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MLD,
Since when does the point of the post have anything to do with the comments section?
If treating Jason with kid gloves is the objective of Old Life, that’s news to the host.
I’m on the record of saying we should be nice to him:
http://literatecomments.com/2014/10/15/has-the-time-come-to-give-jason-stellman-a-mulligan/
The point of documenting Drunk Ex Pastors was to see if Bryan and the Callers still supported him. Bryan weighed in yesterday – he does – so there’s no need to keep documenting it. I won’t – it’s irrelevant now.
There’s years of history here that you’re missing. This place is not for the faint of heart.
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Erik,
Fair enough on point of post and comments.
Doubly fair enough that I’m uninformed on the history thing.
I don’t mind a rough and tumble comment section, I’m an only daughter with three brothers.
I think you’d be missed if you didn’t post anymore, so I hope everything works out fine here.
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MLD,
Thanks. I think we’ll get it figured out one way or another.
I trust the guys who have denied it, it’s frankly not D.G. or Zrim’s style to bind themselves with an oath, and if it’s Andrew or anyone else I’m not concerned.
My thought is that Christian and Kenneth are making these supposed e-mails up. We’ll see if they can prove it, kind of like sending an ear to prove you’ve actually kidnapped someone. If they can’t or won’t prove it it’s just par for the course with those guys.
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My guess is that Kenneth is also making up the “Facebook Attacks”. No proof of those has been offered either.
That’s the nice thing about Reformed people — we learn to deal in verifiable facts.
Agnostics and Catholics like to deal in illusions, whether it’s supposing there might not be a God or in supposing that the Pope solves all religious questions.
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I’ve never objected to it. I’ve also never objected to anything I say on a podcast being re-published or broadcast. Do you think our goal is to not be heard? LOL
Erik, you should give your friends the benefit of the doubt and assume I’m lying. At least then you’ll keep some friends. Last time I checked, people didn’t like being interrogated and mistrusted by their “friends.”
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Christian,
O.K. I’ll assume you’re lying.
So why did you come here and bring it up?
Do you regularly lie and is that development pre or post Christianity?
I though atheists and agnostics are all about facts and proof.
Apparently you’re as bad at being an agnostic as you were at being a Christian.
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Christian,
And “friends” belongs in quotes. This is all recreation. If it all goes away, real life is not impacted. These are all people in different places with whom my interaction is completely optional — just like with you.
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Same reason you were lying about suing Kenneth I guess, to see how you’d respond. You didn’t disappoint. Thank you.
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The interesting thing about this is how it all ties back to the infamous “sweetbreads” thread. It was a good lesson for me that has implications for everyone here in how to view and deal with the internet.
I got mad at a guy because he took sides with a guy I was arguing against who, at the time, I thought was literally dangerous (Greg the Terrible). Since then I’ve come to realize he’s actually just a big ugly puppy dog who is harmless.
The lesson I learned, though, is that you cannot confuse your online allies with your real life friends.
The internet brings something out of all of us that is a deeply-entrenched part of our sinful human nature. Don’t confuse your online relationships with your real life friendships with your family, church friends, and personal friends — they’re not the same.
You see all this in spades at Twitter, Facebook, etc. and you also see the problems that arise when people intermix their personal relationships with those mediums.
You also see it on theological blogs, hopefully it’s a bit cleaner and more humane, but it’s still combat. If you know what you are involved in, it’s quite stimulating. If you get confused about what you are doing, though, it can lead to real-life problems.
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Christian,
Difference is I was 20% serious about suing Kenneth. I’m not convinced I don’t have a case. Who wants to go through discovery and have to travel to Texas to win a suit against a guy who likely has no money?
At least we now know you are a 100% liar. Glad I’m done listening to your sad, depressing podcast, Enjoy your agnostic life.
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It’s been a while since I have commented here, as the demands of life have almost squashed my discretionary time to nothing. But, we had to sit out of church today because the family is sick, and I am stuck as caretaker in chief. I still try to stay up on the dude’s posts and the more salient conversations in the comboxes, and when time permits a quick barb here and there…
All this to say, this one has gone off the rails in a way that makes the old school dust-ups with Paul Manata seem like child’s-play (sean didn’t one of us challenge him to a good old bare knuckled brawl once), and the brou-ha-ha between Zrim and I over Reformed Resistance Theory seem positively infantile.
As someone who loves OldLife and the open back and forth here, I think this one has gotten out of hand in the same fashion of the newsman brawl in Anchorman. Kind of like WWI, the spark was fairly small, the trenches have been dug, and nobody can quite remember why they are chucking grenades at each other, but they lob them nonetheless. Can’t we just go back to poking fun at Mark Jones? Seriously.
*BTW, I am on my meds, and think that sounded pretty sane.
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Sorry I had to hang you guys out there for awhile.
I knew Christian would cave pretty quickly. He did.
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Jed, that’s a motiion to cut the crap here and get back to Nacho.
I second.
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Jed,
Now that Christian has admitted he’s a liar I think it’s over.
I’ve never taken on knuckleheads as big as him and Kenneth, short of the two guys subject to the Sowers rule, Richard Smith, and maybe Bryan Cross (not a knucklehead, but with his own unique charms).
It’s probably a weakness, but I will not back down to guys like these. I’ll play it out to the bitter end, at least until the day comes that I just walk away for good.
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Mark Driscoll overtakes EC? And why is dreamweaver still on there?
Gonna keep my eye on the drunks.
Darryl’s still mopping up the horserace.
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I’d look up the coffee house inquisitor, but his blog is, in the words of Kramer, a little bpphppthppt.
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Several of you are probably mad at me right now, but consider this: I got Bryan freaking Cross to write a treatise lauding the virtues of saying “fuck”. Who else can pull that off?
Give it all a few days to sink in and you’ll be asking for my PayPal account so you can send money.
Also note that The Dude has maintained radio silence.
I’ve sat at the feet of The Dude for some time now and have learned many lessons…
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Erik, words like “you should assume” and “I guess” do not an admission make. I’m trying to help you out here and let you keep some of your online friends. You have to ask yourself what reason I have to “cave,” don’t you? Chill out, dude. Quit while you’re ahead.
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Just drop it and move on. Peace.
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The NYT crossword was very difficult today and now this??
Move on, please…
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Erik,
To anyone even remotely familiar with litigation and “grown up” affairs you sound so ridiculous talking about suing me. I realize that it’s all a ploy to make yourself not look like a psycho…. But after this whole episode most people have already realized that you are disturbed. Instead, Your just making yourself look like an idiot with some kind of OCD who is projecting himself as a rottweiler doing battle in the trenches. You need to take Christians advice and take a few weeks off. You are not going to be able to salvage the situation. You need to get your head straight….. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row before you start writing Congressmen and hiring law firms. From a normal persons perspective… It reads like you’ve lost your frickin mind.
You have forever lost credibility.
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Kenneth,
Is that your opinion? Or do your opinions carry the weight of all 1.2 billion roman catholics in your church?
We’re all very impressed with your borg cube of an apologetic, but I suggest the same for you.
Give the internet a week off. This thread was not your best showing.
Respond to me as your led. I’ll make sure to adjust my avatar photo appropriately to the level of sophistication of your comments.
Peace, friend.
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Ken, lighten up with all the ‘forever’ talk. Even if you thought someone was unbalanced, is it your M.O. to pile on? ‘Hey look there’s the Asperger’s kid, let’s taunt him.’ I don’t particularly understand the situation nor do I really want to. But, if you think someone had a pathology that was aberrant, the tact wouldn’t be to poke him with a stick. If you’re above it all, then be above it all. I know, I know; ‘but he started it, blah blah blah.’ You can’t control someone else but you can regulate yourself. It’s the internet and it’s filled with sinners and all the social irregularities and even oddities of virtual community, so, let’s all take a breath and not play God as regards to other’s character. Plus, you still haven’t convinced me how it is that the consequences of Vat II have been ‘put down.’ I’m pretty sure the RC’s I interact with daily are all products of those consequences.
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Sean,
Youre right. Moving on….
Yves Congar once commented that the anniversary of V2 sounded to him more like funeral bells. Which goes to show how frustrated he was with the reign of JP2. It just wasn’t the victory for liberalism you think it was….. We are still waiting to see. The Synod on the family will be an interesting book mark. We shall see
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sean, this thread is a trainwreck. You won’t have missed anything if you just read Darryl’s post and comment accordingly.
The internet can really be a waste of time. I should be ashamed of myself.
I’ll be digging up my sackloth and ashes, toodles all.
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IOW Kenneth’s trumpeting that this thread is the great leveler and revealer of EC is as pathetic as his other’s claims that the thread on the drunk’s website somehow achieved something of value.
We’re all just wasting our time, yelling, “LEEEERRROOOOYYYY JENNNNNNNNkkkins!!”
Finding something useful with my time,
Andrew
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Sorry, not his (Kenneth), but I think Erik believes we owe him royalites for his service on the drunk website.
This is all just a video game, and we all have better things to do. Other threads. Even more fun video games.
Sorry.
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Ken, I’ve got the Family synod earmarked as well. Somebody call the pope…
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loser ken, I’m with Erik on this. You’re making 10k a week by overcharging the govt. is far creepier than what EC is doing here. Why, what you’re doing by your own church’s teaching is a big deal — call it mortal sin.
Not to mention grown men — one a recent convert to RC’sm — talking about masturbation in public. What happened to Humanae Vitae?
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loser ken, “You have forever lost credibility.”
Why is your standard for Erik so much higher than for the magisterium?
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Daryl,
My “overcharging the government” comment was sarcasm. They set and regulate the pricing not us. So…. That’s not a mortal sin or a sin at all. But way to stick up for your boy. Nice effort
The Magesterium has never creepily looked me up on FB.
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Also, I made 10k my FIRST week. Not every single week of the year. Are you really gonna make me apologize for making more money than you? My bad….
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Kenneth, I made more money than that, in one hour on the Price is Right.
Grow up someday.
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Maybe Kenneth can get hired to sell ads for the secret version of Facebook that isn’t visible to everyone on the internet…
Could pay even better than selling overpriced drugs.
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Thanks for the support, D.G.
No surprise that it came from the guy who will go toe-to-toe with guys like Kenneth & Christian, plus misguided guys within our own movement, at a real cost to himself, under his real name — and do it for decades.
That’s why I’m here and why I think you are a one-of-a-kind who will not be seen again in my lifetime.
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Erik,
Maybe Kenneth can get hired to sell ads for the secret version of Facebook that isn’t visible to everyone on the internet…
Now that’s funny! See, a little support from your boy and already your settling back into the groove.
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Kenneth,
You’re a jackass.
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If anyone wants to know where Christan and jason are headed, read the titles:
http://ohnopodcast.com/
They have farther to fall. “Ross and Carrie Touch Themselves: Breast and Penis Enlargement Edition”
“Ross and Carrie Engage in Cupping: Our Skin Runneth Over”
the colon cleanse episode: “Ross and Carrie Colon-ize: Colon Cleansing and Hydrotherapy Edition”
my wife went to xtian school with ross. its really sad. people reject xtianity and romans 1 is soooo true. debased mind, yo.
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Kenneth and Bryan sticking up for them is amazing.
i hate to do this, but this is all one has to do
https://twitter.com/andrewbuckingha/status/563178236637896704
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loser ken, priests look you up on facebook holily? You want to go there?
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loser ken, do you tithe? Or do you play Bingo?
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Daryl,
priests look you up on facebook holily?
Haha no I don’t think I want to go there.
do you tithe? Or do you play Bingo?
Spend it all on captain Morgan and cigarettes. I’m stock piling both for the end days.
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Erik,
Fwiw:
If anyone should send you remuneration, it’s Jason. You’re helping expose more hair brained operations and bozos like Kenneth who seek to derail his honest efforts.
Good work, Erik. If you are this way as an elder in your church, your church-mates have much to be thankful for, for you.
I expect Kenneth to keep trolling this thread, so I just wanted to get this in. Talk to you later, rottweiler (wink).
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For those who missed it, Bryan waxes eloquent on how Jason & Christian yukking it up over “snail trails” is really just Jason being a 21st Century G.K. Chesterton writing his “Father Brown” stories.
It takes a world-class sophist and a very prideful man to come up with a whopper like that.
http://www.drunkexpastors.com/podcast-28-yoga-pants-gay-husbands-and-incest/#comment-853
Bryan Cross
February 7, 2015 at 7:45 AM
Erik,
Though I haven’t listened to all the podcasts, the only thing I disagree with Jason about, so far as I know, is his claim that the rest of us at CTC are better Catholics than he is. Also, morality does not include all cultural taboos or norms. In a fundamentalist paradigm, saying ‘fuck’ is a sin. But not in the agape paradigm, within which ‘fuck’ can be said while loving God above all else as Father, and loving one’s neighbor as oneself for God’s sake. Jason gets this, which is why he is rightly comfortable in his earthy humanity, as was Chesterton, O’Connor, Waugh, Greene, and Percy. (Just read Percy!) The saints are very diverse; no two saints are identical. Each has a different set of gifts, a different style, a different personality. Not only is there room within the Church for all these different styles, but we each benefit from them all, and in this way we need and appreciate these different styles and gifts, because they exemplify different facets of the Good, which none of us individually fully exemplify. In short, in the Body of Christ we all (myself included) benefit from what is unique in Jason’s style. So not only is Jason a friend and brother (though I’m a lousy friend on my end when he’s in need), I’m grateful for everything about him that is different from me.
Also, if you can get a little distance, read through this thread again as if through the eyes of a third-party (if you can), and ask yourself what it means when a self-professed agnostic is so much more kind, giving, long-suffering, gracious, charitable, and (dare I say it) Christ-like, than yourself. What does it say about your paradigm when an agnostic so clearly and obviously out-loves you? Something in 1 Cor 13 seems pertinent. But 1 Cor 13 came after the Damascus road, when a man infatuated and obsessed with the laws, and in the name of the law breathing murderous threats and seeking to stamp out those even in far away places who had entered into the agape paradigm, came face to face with Agape Himself. He discovered that Agape Himself was that to which all those laws pointed. And there and then this man was lifted into a higher paradigm, the agape paradigm, according to which laws are for persons, not persons for the law, because the telos of the law is love, which is irreducibly both Personal and Inter-Personal. If the measure is love, then everything without love becomes a clanging cymbal, not only empty, but off-putting. And a paradigm that breeds and applauds love-less behavior by that very fact refutes and destroys itself, in spite of itself. So if you find yourself in a paradigm in which love-less behavior is bred, encouraged, and applauded, where individuals are continually attacking and devouring one another, where genuine insults (not the affectionate sort) are the norm, where getting the speck out of the neighbor’s eye is everyone’s obsession, then it might be time to reconsider seriously whether you’ve taken a wrong turn at some point.
In the peace of Christ,
– Bryan
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Kenneth,
You’re not Presbyterian or Reformed are you?
Why are you around here so much? Are you stalking us?
Creepy.
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Erik,
Loser ken said he needs an escape from the hard work of raising three small kids.
That’s all I can must as to the why. He never answers my questions. They are too hard for him (and too many words, I will try to keep my words to 140, and very short to boot).
Peace.
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By the way, prudence dicates we look up online the bozos who harras and seek to defame us in these silly blogs. Props for finding him on Facebook, Erik. It wasn’t creepy at all. Again, well done.
Here’s the comment back in march I keep talking about. Ken just drops the creep bomb when things get hard for him. Can you say, loser ken?
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Bryan & the Callers’ new theme music.
Can they get that to play in the background on the website?
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Andrew,
Whatever it takes to annoy him. Keep it up.
Yo Quiero Taco Bell.
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I had two seven layer burritos (no sour cream, healthy, you know) last night, with all this taco bell talk, and the kids had their fill. It was beautiful. They have some crazy @$$ new things on their menu, some creepy crunch wrap nonsense. Great theme music, you’re on your A-game this last week. Off to watch the delay of the grammys.
peace.
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It’s apparently Darryl’s frault (from Andrew’s White Horse Inn link):
Kenneth Winsmann
MARCH 12, 2014 AT 8:50 PM
And also for the record I have not just “shown up” to reformed blogs just to attack people like a troll (although that is what you have done here). Daryl has repeatedly said they he wants me at Old Life while the rest of you took bets on how long I could stomach the abuse and stick around. Obviously I think RC claims are true and because I love others enjoy sharing that truth with them in the hope of spreading the cause. Tim has already been there and do everything that and swam the Tiber in the opposite direction…. Hence, a great opportunity to dialog.
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Erik, it’s great to have a dimwit catholic to have as target practice. we should be quiet and let kenneth engage with someone else here, and just watch him make a fool of himself.
that blog is awesome, got to fight with the big bad ass blogger catholic nick himself. that thread i linked you to is itself a riot.
but don’t let this blog garbage take you away from what matters. i know you never do.
again, peace homeslice.
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Kenneth,
Love me with Bryan’s agape paradigm.
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Erik, best part of the BCross quote:
{Paraphrase}
I dont listen to this podcast, but nothing said here contradicts what ive said.
What a clown. These aren’t video games
These blogs are a circus.
Its like, I don’t drink beer, but when I do
The Most Interesting Man in the World: http://youtu.be/L8nt94LCyqY
Break out the popcorn.
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loser ken, I’m with Erik on this. You’re making 10k a week by overcharging the govt. is far creepier than what EC is doing here. Why, what you’re doing by your own church’s teaching is a big deal — call it mortal sin.
Au contraire DG. To whom much is given much is required. I can expect stupid or immature stuff from Romanists or at least allow for it. Not my job to police them per se. But from professing reformed believers/elders? Get serious.
Rom 3:8. This is elementary. If descending to these guys’ level is the only way to pursue them, then it’s not worth it. Why go there?
If Ken running a rip off, nail him. Hard.
But the blowhard bullshtick boasting that has accompanied all this is juvenile.
Comments are open, but twerps preening and flaunting their immaturity don’t further the truth or their reputation of having a love for it, even if Jase and Chris are over the edge.
As if they don’t already tell us that in the title of their podcast.
The original post and thread?
The Word Count Wunder Kid doesn’t understand perspicuity according to the Roman dialectic. Consequently he thinks Vat2 didn’t change anything, however much sean is trying to hip him to the fact that for one, anathema and separated brethren are not synonyms in any real paradigm worthy of the name.
The smug fellow in the flat hat?
He still thinks that the CIP is all about love without the law and the PIP is all about keeping the law without love.
No mention of course, in all this of the Scriptural paradigm: “for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. . . love is the fulfilling of the law Rom.13:8,10.”
But his comments weren’t responsive the last time we went through all this either here or at Green Baggins.
So what else is new?
cheers
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Bob,
I think you are funny and I appreciate your wit and candor.
But I think you’re wrong. Unless you know Erik in real life, you don’t get to tear him down like that.
Go get a beer or something. And come after me. I like Erik. You should be grateful.
Peace.
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Erik,
“very prideful man”
Physician, heal thyself.
After that, perhaps take some time to rethink your priorities. This was the noble dispassionate mission that fueled all your time and effort/conduct in this self-admitted obsession that spawned this fiasco:
“Your biggest obstacle to getting along with so many you left behind is Bryan Cross. That guy is so maddening that your association with him colors the judgment of a lot of people about you, myself included. Seriously, if you want to put a lot of this behind you, sever that tie. Ask him to take the articles down and remove you from the roster. I for one will swear to leave you alone from that point on.”
“The Bryan link is the last source of irritation, not because of you, but because of him. If you’re an admittedly bad or marginal Catholic, it’s ridiculous that he “keeps you on” there. He’s not going to give you up easily, though, because you’re maybe his best trophy to date and he hates backtracking on anything. This is why I do and will continue to press, though.”
When scoring a trivial hit on some dude on the internet becomes your white whale, that’s a red flag.
But hey, at least you got this feather in your cap: “Several of you are probably mad at me right now, but consider this: I got Bryan freaking Cross to write a treatise lauding the virtues of saying “fuck”. Who else can pull that off?”
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ec, what a bunch of hooey. Bryan loves Jason and makes it all go away with the magic of paradigm. Can Bryan use his paradigm to appreciate your “style”?
Completely arbitrary like so much of Bryan’s logic (and head gear).
And imagine how much leash this gives to priests and bishops. Crusades? Nothing to see here.
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ec, I do want loser ken around. It’s further proof of how toolish the RC convert/apologists are.
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lady fox, does it trouble you that Jason apparently (I’d need to be drunk to listen to the ex-pastors and I drive while listening to podcasts) talks about masturbation and Bryan attributes mortal sin to “style”?
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Bob,
O.K. I hear you’ve been messing with ******** *****, a clear violation of the law.
Now prove it’s not true.
This is what Kenneth did to me – make a serious accusation of messing with his family while offering no proof whatsoever that it even happened or, on the small chance that it did, that I had anything to do with it.
You’re as big of a moron as he is so I wouldn’t expect you to understand.
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Cletus,
Thanks for the golf clap. I appreciate it.
With Bryan’s lowering himself and Kenneth blowing up over false accusations, maybe you can move up to #1 in the Old Life Catholic apologist pecking order.
You’ve actually probably been the best of the bunch over the past few years, but that’s not saying much.
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D.G.,
I want Kenneth around too unless it becomes clear that he’s pathological.
There’s work going on behind the scenes on these false accusations. If I can verify he was lying, hopefully you will invoke the Sowers rule on him.
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Cletus,
Am I prideful as well? Absolutely.
Do I sign my prideful posts “in the peace of Christ”? Absolutely not.
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The skinny on foxy:
That, and hasn’t seen the wire.
Lame.
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Cletus,
You tell Erik to read his own comments objectively.
Read Bryan Cross’s comment again, objectively.
Listen to DXP objectively ( you comment enough over there, like tool boy Ken, you swoon for Jason and Christian).
I’ll listen as much as I can on my commute to their new one. I couldn’t get 5 minutes in to last week’s.
That, and you are a pansy, for posting anon.
As loser Ken might say, got no stroke?
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Erik Charter,
If you start screwing with my family again, if I get one word from my dad or anyone else, I swear to God and on my three kids I’ll press charges for cyber harassment. If nothing else just to get your wife’s attention. Leave them out of your psycho ocd creeper world
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Hey, hey people, sisters, brothers and sisters, brothers and sisters, come-on now!
That means everybody just cool out!
They’re fighting a lot
Will you cool out everybody?
😀
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The Callers and superKen are the frat boys around here.
At least the frat boys had someone smart enough to say “LEAVING!!!”
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Win(n)y creeper boy,
Sola Scriptura.
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Ken…. being a doofus troll around here isn’t quite like knocking down a hornet’s nest and standing around for the reaction with a big grin on your face.
It’s more of a slow and stickier kind of retaliation….
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When Kent has to be the 60’s flower child begging for people to smileonyourbrothereverybodygettogethertrytoloveoneanotherrightnow
you know things aren’t groovy. Kind of like when Muddy is forced to be the voice of reason – not a good sign. No, not at all.
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I take some small comfort in knowing i’m not the craziest one in my Christian clique.
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muddy, but what if Erik is pulling our leg?
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DGH, he wouldn’t be my first choice to touch my leg.
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Muddy,
What are you doing up this early? Everything Ok?
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And since no one auto corrected my stroke, looks like I need to spell it out for Katniss.
http://backtothefuture.wikia.com/wiki/Scrote
Grow a pair, biotch?
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Ken,
We’ll get to the bottom of this through Facebook and your local police department. I’ll call the police together with you if you wish. In the meantime, get the evidence of this cyber harassment together.
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I’m telling everyone, the walls are closing in on Kenneth if he’s made this cyber harassment up, which I’m reasonably sure he has. Prepare for his comments here to get more threatening & irrational if he’s lying. Facebook knows what’s going on on Facebook
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Erik, but even a lemming can opt out of the march… there’s hope for Ken…
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Erik, I’ll say it again, step away from the comp. Or not, whatev.
You really thought I was the snitch?
Where’s the love, boyfriend?
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Seriously guys. No smart comments from this point on unless you’re willing to be sincere & use your real name. They’re not helpful in this situation.
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Comments are open, spam flies, flatulence ensues and cacophony reigns.
Welcome to the virtual combox
ing ringresizeable at will at the bottom of the page where one can peer into the white pixelated fog of the infinite ether and wrestle with the lightness of being a moron.In this corner Chitter Chatter and the Chichuahua.
In the other KKKenny and CVD.
Refereed by Jase and his bud.
Comments are open, minds are closed and the opinions run from a to z.
If you can’t spell, that’s not our problem.
cheers
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Erik, my real name is right ^^there^^.
Talk to me bro.
So someone sent the drunks an e-mail, calling you a “rodeo clown” or something, is that the issue?
Katniss says someone hacked his book-face, and is coming after you with better call saul.
help a brother out. let’s all do this machen style, christian religion flourishes not in the darkness but in the light.
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=330
I’m trying to help, yo.
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DG,
You said,
The “Agape paradigm.” Remember,
As long as you’re loving God & your neighbor more than yourself it’s all good.
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I thought Christian lied about the whole thing, and Katniss is a creepy catholic living in the space between bryan’s ears, and can’t figure out what’s happening on his computer screen.
and is drowning in captain morgan from what he got from his 10k drug push, walter white style.
Why is everyone’s panties in a bunch? Why are we here?
Listen to brandon, yo.
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Andrew,
With all due respect – go away.
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Bub, it’s the hunger games.
next time, do a little research.
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Erik, fine, You won’t see more of my comments.
I don’t get it, but I’ll totally defer to the rotweiller.
You’re doing fine, I’m just lost. See you out on the green.
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Appropriately, “Axel F” just came up on my I pod.
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Ok, but, don’t tell me what to do. Ever. I always knew FB was toxic and/or feminine. Oh, wait.
I’m still fairly amazed to watch all the Fundy prots taking their cues from trad RC’s, on FB. It’s the love story of how one ahistorical group discovers the other. Gross.
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Sean, the RCC can be an attractive alternative for those finally fed up with Evangelicalism.
I would posit that Truly Reformed is a better place to go, but it may take a little dabbling in that zone between Evangelicalism and TR…
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Kent, I’m sure. I guess. The romance wore out for me a long long long time ago. Something about actually living in the same house, rather than looking in the windows, cures the allure.
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Yes, Sean, I can appreciate Maritain (and a few others), but I can’t make it practical in my life.
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Until this situation is resolved either through law enforcement or Facebook I’ll be checking out. If it doesn’t get resolved, I’ll stay checked out.
This has been an eye-opening lesson that we really never know who we’re dealing with in this medium. Once it starts to impinge on real life, it’s time to check out.
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Erik,
I don’t even have a problem with you. I think you are funny and have always enjoyed our interactions in the past. Just promise not to bug my family and we can all move on. I don’t want them involved. That’s all. I don’t want you to feel like you have to quit blogging at OL. If anything I will leave and you can enjoy your playground. I just dont want my family involved. I’m not even asking to confess or whatever. Just acknowledge you won’t involve them and we can all move on with our lives.
Cool?
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Erik,
Sorry I was weird yesterday.
Sorry for posting again after I said I wouldn’t.
Peace.
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Kenneth,
If I can be of help in this kerfuffle b/t you and Erik, drop me a note.
And please next time don’t bring up my genitals in public as you did in this thread. It’s not very polite.
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I put together a chronology that I think reveals that I am in no way the #1 suspect on these “harassing Facebook messages”, if by some chance they really exist. You can read it here if you are interested:
http://literatecomments.com/2015/02/10/a-curious-chronology/
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Glad to see literate comments back up.
Took a dump on the drunks website.
Left a Tillich treatise.
That should keep ’em busy.
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Erik, don’t let these guys sweat you. They loaded the question on you. They essentially asked you if you have stopped beating your wife, yet. You shouldn’t and you can’t effectively defend yourself from such jr high crap. For your part you can’t chase these things to the nth degree on the internet. I went on FB last night, interjected a joke amongst a group of women who, of course, were taking their FB conversation seriously, waited for them to ‘like’ my comment and when they failed to recognize my brilliance I went ahead and liked my own comment. As an acquaintance of ours says, the internet needs to be ‘breezy’. It’s like when folks write theological treatises in comboxes. They overload the medium. If it’s not fun, don’t do it. Part of it being fun, is to commit to that approach. Even then, you’ll screw it up. Someone will piss you off and you’ll offer to beat their face in, stomp mudholes in their chest, kick them upside the head, push their toddler over, kick their dog, and finally pour sugar in the gas tank of their car. Anyway, I know you want to defend your rep and worry about internet interactions, I don’t know what to tell you about that, other than most of us have said some stupid stuff and acted poorly on the internet(not that you did anything the cue ball or Kenneth accuse you of). It’s a learning experience and here’s hoping most of our lives are so boring and the overall volume of interactions so massive, that in the end Big Brother can’t sort it and doesn’t care and oh, btw, they act inappropriately too.
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I just double checked, they still haven’t liked my comment. And I’m funny, so, I now know they are all shrews and bitter and selfish and self-righteous.
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Sean, to me, the interwebs seem cirdadian.
I bet we will be back just like this next year.
Only my SF giants Won’t be the champions. Not until 2016, that is..
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Circadian
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
I’ll save you the Google thumb movements.
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Sean,
Thanks.
This has been a valuable exercise for me, albeit way too time consuming.
In a lot of ways I’m reaping what I’ve sown. I’ve been really strong with a lot of people here (and recently at Drunk Ex-Pastors) for a long time under my own name. At some point when you do that, you’re going to get someone who is so frustrated that they go out of bounds in retaliation. I’m just glad it was something like this and not physical violence.
I’ve just never seen the point of anonymous discussion of religion, though. There needs to be a degree of accountability. I’ve been a jerk to a lot of people, but I’ve never told lies about anyone. I’ve done it all under my real name.
Bottom line for me at this point is that I’m just not doing it if (1) I can’t be civil, (2) others can’t be civil to me, (3) I don’t actually know who everyone really is. It’s just not worth it to me anymore. If we’re Calvinists we believe that Jesus will keep track of his own people. If someone wanders off to become a Catholic, an agnostic, an atheist, a universalist, or, God forbid, a baptist, that’s frankly Jesus’s problem, not mine.
Oh, and the baptist was a joke.
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Ok. I REALLY missed something here.
Notifications do NOT work for this site for me. Unless I intentionally come here and click around I have no idea this place still exists. Erik does not look like he is in the mood to explain. I will see if I can surmise, but I have a feeling that will be easier said than done.
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Erik, I appreciate what you say and believe you to be a principled guy — you know that. But note that all the fireworks were between non-anons — real-world connections actually made things worse. The anons have less invested maybe; ego should not be a factor with them. And there are varying degrees of anons: some use real or almost real partial names, some (as with me) are known to almost all the regulars, some shift from anon to open or open to anon. I also believe crosstalk between multiple blogs, Facebook, Twitter, messages by email and other platforms, etc. make it worse. Keep it simple and light, real or anon.
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CW, I can’t let you try to dent my postmodern metanarrative with all that talk about non-anons…
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Go up in a helicopter, look down, and tell me how important blogs are. But, wait, before you come back down tell me how important comments on blogs are. Every morning I look in the mirror and say “you know you’re not that important, don’t you?” Then I affirm my sagacity with a high-five to the mirror: “you are correct, sir!”
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With a face like that, Muddy, you shouldn’t have to work too hard to convince yourself your assertion.
Kent, I will be gentle with your metanarrative of tin.
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Are blogs important? Probably not.
Are Christ & the gospel important? They’re the most important things in the world.
So perhaps something is out of whack with the notion of an un-moderated theological blog.
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Damn, I wake up in the morning, look myself in the mirror and contemplate resuming my underwear modeling career. But, then I realize how much self-hate that would cause among others and generously go about my otherwise fabulous life.
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CW, it’s a look. Biker chicks and meth heads dig it. Once in a while a cartoon character does a double take. Let’s just say I get enough looks to make vanity a temptation.
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Sean, the model industry allows for all kinds of bodies. I’m practically a perfect XXXTall myself.
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Now this rusting, listing bark of blog is back on course.
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My price is right avatar from my appearance in 2001 should be showing up in a few minutes. It’ll go back to the mysterious gray outline soon enough, I just thought you would all want to be graced with my 19 year old visage.
You’re welcome, you hoots.
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Kent, amen. Though I still think the social conditioning contingent needs to get their act together. Do we have an obesity epidemic or a fat shaming problem. You can’t play both sides of this fence(Oprah) you have to choose. When you go to the beach, do people congregate on your shady side? This sort of speaking ‘truths’ can go a long way to warding off the insulin pumps. How about throwing in a salad now and again. When you go swimming are you in danger of being harpooned? These are the sorts of questions ‘mericans need to contemplate.
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Back on course, pointing right towards the centre of the sun, no stopping now.
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Seriously though, people should be able to come here and see that we are:
serious about important things
able to have a good time
able to give and receive criticism
not afraid to be contrary
comfortable as curmudgeons
funner than baptists, evangelicals, and world fixers
not all the same, and OK with that.
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video game we are, my pweeps.
oh, and i’m leroy
enjoy (nsfw)
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My skinny years were filled with strangers being rude and mean to me.
Now they don’t bother me at all, it’s most amusing when they turn around in fury and see me and then wuss out.
I don’t seek out altercations but I kind of live in my own shell and sometimes cause minor public squabbles without intent.
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sean, can you give me a number crunch real quick?
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I don’t care who’s wrong or right, I don’t really want to fight no more.
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There’s a few things out of order in MMA, like headbutting, fish hooks, and low blows. But there’s a full menu of aggressive moves that are allowed. The fighters bump fists like a handshake, try to destroy each other within the rules, then hug and go on with their lives.
Our role models are in the Octagon.
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My intent isn’t to pass judgment on anyone. The laughs both on and off blog have been priceless.
It is without question the crazy train, though, and sometimes one needs to disembark, at least for a time.
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I’ll drift between Octagon and A Gift From a Flower to a Garden.
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Verily, let us unificate.
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If I wasn’t leaving, though, I would tell you about the gay porn I just found intermixed with Catholic magazines at the recycling center, with the same name on the porn envelope as the Catholic magazines. No joke.
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What’s the over/under on how long Erik is retired for?
I’m going for about 30 seconds after I hit post.
Prove me wrong, rottweiler.
You aren’t going anywhere, just admit it.
Seriously, you guys are a hoot.
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You can check-out any time you like
But you can never leave!”
Livin’ it up!
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This past week can’t get any weirder at this point.
Hopefully gay porn Catholic dude has the agape paradigm thingy working for him on judgment day.
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Who freaking recycles their gay porn in a public recycling dump?
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The universe is conspiring to not let me leave at the moment, but damn I’m trying!
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Erik, watch this
this the blogs. After you are done with that, you can be my wingman anytime.
i’ll talk you through it. don’t worry, all is well.
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directors cut
my cat’s name is maverick? remember?
darryl, how’s kabigale (sp, i know.)
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All this niceness aside, a reminder of why Jason, Bryan, and the Callers STILL LIVE IN SUCKVILLE!
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/02/ask-father-how-can-i-gain-a-plenary-indulgence-as-fast-as-i-can/
Thanks to Seth the Lutheran from another thread.
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Yikes, and the world of eeeevangellyfish is viewed to be fraught with anything-goes antics that are overly influenced by the power of personality or emotion?
And the reformed world is viewed to be the model of decorum, sober and unemotional reflection, and grounded theology?
This thread – curious and entertaining as it is – puts all the stereotypes upside-down!
Keep up the good work.
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Petros: And the reformed world is viewed to be the model of decorum, sober and unemotional reflection, and grounded theology?
Not sure where you found that myth, or why you would possibly believe it…
There is hopefully some order in the church services.
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Kent, as I recall, Petrosian is sort of a Keller-symp, neo-Cal leaner, so he’s obviously given to credulity and wishful thinking. Correct me if I’m wrong.
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Yo, pebble, this ain’t church. Jesus hung out with winebibbers, tax collectors and prostitutes. Self-righteous much? Plus, I’m me and I’m awesome. You just can’t just stick me on the wall of Abercrombie and Fitch store and pretend you’re not impressed. EVERYBODY is impressed.
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Some of us like to sit on a bed of nails and pretend it is fun.
They tend not to do much on the internet.
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Andrew,
One piece of advice before I leave — and I’m dead serious about this.
I think you might be in the wrong line of work, and that’s feeding your online craziness. We’re different – I’m not crazy, I’m just too freaking mean to be constructive in this environment.
You’re a truly nice guy, though, and should be channeling your obvious desire for interaction in a place where it can be a positive, for you and others. Have you ever thought about becoming a school teacher?
I think you would be great at either the grade school or especially the junior high level.
You should seriously consider it. The being in a cube crunching numbers all day is pushing you over the edge and I don’t want to see it end badly for you.
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I, on the other hand, should probably go become a trial lawyer who rips peoples hearts out.
Actually considering it.
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Erik, message me on twitter if you want my opinion of lawyers. My brother, my wife’s brother, and my wife’s sister in law are all district attorneys.
I have opinions, just as you do. Take care, and thanks for putting forth your thoughts about what you think about me and what’s best. That’s very kind.
Regards,
Andrew
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Junior high kids would eat you up. You could be a hero to them.
If we had youth leaders you would be good at that too.
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What you don’t think I have the jr. high sunday school class roaring with my jokes, juggling, and all around wacky approach to theology?
Erik, sorry, but you have no idea 😉
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We numbers crunchers who don’t sit still all day doing nothing at the desk usually head towards specialty services (forensics, bankruptcies, recoveries.)
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Erik,
you lobbed me a soft ball, and i struck out. i totally missed my standard rejoinder.
teacher? of course you mean professional golfer:
https://oldlife.org/2015/02/from-dgh-on-do-some-pray-more-effectually-than-others-submitted-on-20150204-at-1215-pm/comment-page-3/#comment-303114
Catch up on the rest of DG’s posts, and get back to me. Get reading, pooch.
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andrew, kabby is fine.
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peter, it’s a blog, haven’t you heard. But good for you. Glad you declare yourself righteous.
We are here to serve.
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I miss Loser Ken. Now he’s expressing buyer’s remorse:
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Darryl, I miss him too, and I’m not going to listen to anymore DXP to get the chance to trade Star Wars youtube links again with him. DXP is where he hangs out now. Like you said, Nick needs to get a drink with Kenneth and the ex pastors.
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Buyers remorse? Maybe a little. I do miss my evangelical roots from time to time. Conversion has been…. lame. Especially for the divorced and remarried.
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Ken has buyer’s remorse, but Nick?
The pinch hitter for Jason’s whole post is about breaking the 9th when it comes to the 2nd. (If the RPW is the G&N consequences of the latter, for ex evanjellicals like N. it’s all Greek.)
Of course romanists prefer ignoring the 2nd, by hiding it in the 1st. Among other things, it would obliterate their liturgical addiction to images, never mind their pronounced predilection for the lost apostolic oral traditions.
Talk about convenient wax noses.
Isn’t Harrison Ford, when he’s not crashing airplanes, available for a History Channel update underwritten by the Vatican to clear up those pesky LAOTs once and for all?
The 2nd/RPW? That’s going to take more competence at nuanced question begging than the Called To Confusion cadre has yet demonstrated, past memories of swaying to the music or indulging now in the sacramental smells and eucharistical participation in the Incarnation.
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