The University of Notre Dame’s Center for the Study of Religion and Society hosted a conference on polarization in the Roman Catholic Church in the United States. Those who want to see the plenary session round table may go here.
I haven’t watched this yet, but again the message that mainstream Roman Catholic institutions communicate are very different from the ones that folks like Bryan and the Jasons put forward. For instance, the folks at Notre Dame recognize diversity in the church. Bryan and the Jasons only see unity as the “real” condition of their communion. What is troubling is that Bryan and the Jasons never mention to their audience that events like Notre Dame’s exist, or that the communion to which they call people is not exactly what Called to Communion portrays. (Note that Called to Communion has the reforms of Vatican 2 on its list of topics but no links to those subjects. Hmmm.)
Commonweal mentioned the conference and brought up an older proposal for Roman Catholic unity. It was another call, this time Called to be Catholic. Here‘s part of that call:
Will the Catholic Church in the United States enter the new millennium as a church of promise, augmented by the faith of rising generations and able to be a leavening force in our culture? Or will it become a church on the defensive, torn by dissension and weakened in its core structures? The outcome, we believe, depends on whether American Catholicism can confront an array of challenges with honesty and imagination and whether the church can reverse the polarization that inhibits discussion and cripples leadership. American Catholics must reconstitute the conditions for addressing our differences constructively – a common ground centered on faith in Jesus, marked by accountability to the living Catholic tradition, and ruled by a renewed spirit of civility, dialogue, generosity, and broad and serious consultation.
It is widely admitted that the Catholic Church in the United States has entered a time of peril. Many of its leaders, both clerical and lay, feel under siege and increasingly polarized. Many of its faithful, particularly its young people, feel disenfranchised, confused about their beliefs, and increasingly adrift. Many of its institutions feel uncertain of their identity and increasingly fearful about their future.
Those are hard words to pronounce to a church that, despite many obstacles, continues to grow in numbers, continues to welcome and assist the poor and the stranger, and continues to foster extraordinary examples of Christian faith and witness to the Gospel. The landscape of American Catholicism is dotted with vital communities of worship and service, with new initiatives, and with older, deeply rooted endeavors that are kept alive by the hard labor and daily sacrifices of millions of Catholics. In the face of powerful centrifugal forces, many Catholic leaders have worked to build consensus and cooperation.
We hesitate to say anything that might discourage them or add to the fingerpointing and demoralization that, in too many cases, already burden these exemplary efforts. But this discordant and disheartened atmosphere is itself one of the realities which cannot be ignored. For three decades the church has been divided by different responses to the Second Vatican Council and to the tumultuous years that followed it. By no means were these tensions always unfruitful; in many cases they were virtually unavoidable.
But even as conditions have changed, party lines have hardened. A mood of suspicion and acrimony hangs over many of those most active in the church’s life; at moments it even seems to have infiltrated the ranks of the bishops. One consequence is that many of us are refusing to acknowledge disquieting realities, perhaps fearing that they may reflect poorly on our past efforts or arm our critics within the church. Candid discussion is inhibited. Across the whole spectrum of views within the church, proposals are subject to ideological litmus tests. Ideas, journals, and leaders are pressed to align themselves with preexisting camps, and are viewed warily when they depart from those expectations.
There is nothing wrong in itself with the prospect that different visions should contend within American Catholicism. That has long been part of the church’s experience in this nation, and indeed differences of opinion are essential to the process of attaining the truth. But the way that struggle is currently proceeding, the entire church may lose. It is now three decades after Vatican II. Social and cultural circumstances have changed.
The church possesses a wealth of post-conciliar experience to assess and translate into lessons for the future. There is undiminished hunger for authentic faith, spiritual experience, and moral guidance, but many of the traditional supports for distinct religious identities–or for the institutions that convey them–have disappeared.
Meanwhile, positions of leadership in the ministries of the church are passing to those with little exposure, for better or worse, to the sharply defined institutional Catholicism of earlier decades. Still younger Catholics, many with absolutely no experience of that pre-conciliar Catholicism, come to the church with new questions and few of the old answers.
The church’s capacity to respond to these changed conditions may be stymied if constructive debate is supplanted by bickering, disparagement, and stalemate. Rather than forging a consensus that can harness and direct the church’s energies, contending viewpoints are in danger of canceling one another out. Bishops risk being perceived as members of different camps rather than as pastors of the whole church.
Unless we examine our situation with fresh eyes, open minds and changed hearts, within a few decades a vital Catholic legacy may be squandered, to the loss of both the church and the nation.
Not much there about motives of credibility, papal audacity, Thomas Aquinas, or John Henry Newman.
So which is it? Is it Called to Communion or Called to be Catholic? You can only chalk up such questions to Protestant perversity for so long before you finally admit a problem. Or you change your theme to Called to Denial.
Old Life 
So which is it? Is it Called to Communion or Called to be Catholic? You can only chalk up such questions to Protestant perversity for so long before you finally admit a problem. Or you change your theme to Called to Denial.
First change your own name to Protestant Perversity, Butch. That would be cool, and the first step toward honesty, since you mock the rest of Protestantism too, and your micro-denomination of Christianity can count the number of its schools and universities on one…well, why don’t you count them for everybody here gathered?
Here, let’s get you started: One…
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Time for me to start finishing up Russell Shaw’s book again on my commute. Thanks as always for your insight, Darryl.
TVD, you sound angry, man. You don’t go to church, right? I would propose you go to church, and take these concerns to your pastor or priest. It doesn’t sound well with you given your words here.
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Darryl, this fight you bring to Jason and Bryan is a dirty job, but someone had to do it. TKNY certainly won’t stoop to the of level.
So Godspeed, man. They won’t stop what they do, neither should you. People like TVD on the out side dont understand what those if us with skin in the game are fighting for.
Now. Who is next?
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All this makes me a little more sympathetic to Lefebvre and his shenanigans with the SSPX. If the Pope is unable to quell heresy or unify the tribes, why should have Marcel trusted the Pope to rightfully consecrate bishops? Surely it’s easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission, especially when you never know who the Pope might appoint instead.
I think we Confessionals know what needs to happen when there’s something rotten in Denmark. We’ve dealt with it, time and time again. Heads have to roll. Eggs have to break. It’s an unfortunate symptom of this fallen world and this broken Church. The question remains, though, for the Roman Church – when this egg-breaking Pope comes (if ever), what camp will he be coming from?
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vd, t, if you were truly a Phillies’ fan, you wouldn’t act like a Yankees’ jackass.
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ab, 6 weeks. start over.
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D. Hart,
Do you attribute this diversity in the Roman Church to the reforms of V-2? Or is V-2 just a convenient boogey-man for the Rad-Trads who don’t admit that diversity has always existed in the Roman Church? Or both?
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10-4
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Starting now.
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Can’t resist this 6 week waiting period you are asking me of Darryl, and how another one of my favorite writers puts like matters:
Six weeks. I’ll be reading. See you June 10th.
Grace and peace.
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D. G. Hart
Posted April 29, 2015 at 10:20 am | Permalink
vd, t, if you were truly a Phillies’ fan, you wouldn’t act like a Yankees’ jackass.
We’ll take that ad hom as another surrender on the battlefield of ideas, Butch. O’Sullivan’s Law* is definitely taking over the Catholic universities, but it took over almost your entire Presbyterian Church.
You keep throwing rocks at Rome, but they keep ending up on your side of the Tiber.
________
*”O’Sullivan’s Law states that any organization or enterprise that is not expressly right wing will become left wing over time.”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=O%E2%80%99Sullivan%E2%80%99s%20Law
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vd,t, “battlefield of ideas”?
Difference between rule by one and limited government.
Bishops who cover up for pedophilic priests.
Vatican 2.
Alexander VI.
Crusades.
Edgardo Mortara.
vd, t’s idea: “You keep throwing rocks at Rome, but they keep ending up on your side of the Tiber.”
Bryan’s hat has more ideas than your mullet. Go write a song about failed love and record it with your Cookies.
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D. G. Hart
Posted April 29, 2015 at 9:28 pm | Permalink
vd,t, “battlefield of ideas”?
Difference between rule by one and limited government.
Bishops who cover up for pedophilic priests.
Vatican 2.
Alexander VI.
Crusades.
Edgardo Mortara.
vd, t’s idea: “You keep throwing rocks at Rome, but they keep ending up on your side of the Tiber.”
Bryan’s hat has more ideas than your mullet. Go write a song about failed love and record it with your Cookies.
Attaboy, Butch. Show ’em what you’re made of.
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@ tvd,
and your micro-denomination of Christianity
Since when is being in the minority a negative/slur? Today, isn’t it a mark of a righteous cause?
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Jack Miller
Posted April 30, 2015 at 12:18 am | Permalink
@ tvd,
and your micro-denomination of Christianity
Since when is being in the minority a negative/slur? Today, isn’t it a mark of a righteous cause?
A micro-denomination is the opposite of what “catholic” means. I believe you subscribe to the Nicene Creed, yes?
Something’s wrong here.
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vd, t, by that logic, you’d have been with the Pharisees and chief priest.
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D. G. Hart
Posted April 30, 2015 at 6:26 am | Permalink
vd, t, by that logic, you’d have been with the Pharisees and chief priest.
Fail. There was only one Jesus.
Now if you want to put Calvin up there with Paul, good luck with that.
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@ tvd-
A micro-denomination is the opposite of what “catholic” means. I believe you subscribe to the Nicene Creed, yes?
No, micro-denomination is not the opposite of catholic.
As they say, read the whole thing…
We Confess A Holy Catholic Church
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Jack, and TVD concedes that the OPC is part of Christ’s church. Ask him again, or else I can dig it up.
He’s playing games. Hello (http://adbuckingham.com/price.html).
There I go again..
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All too easy
TVD, that’s right.
Jesus > Paul > Augustine > Aquinas</a:
None of them are universalist like Tom.
TVDfails.
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Andrew, good catch on tvd’s past opining…
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Jack Miller
Posted April 30, 2015 at 8:51 pm | Permalink
@ tvd-
“A micro-denomination is the opposite of what “catholic” means. I believe you subscribe to the Nicene Creed, yes?”
No, micro-denomination is not the opposite of catholic.
Uh, yeah it is, by any understanding of the concept. My ex-Reformed friend who recently swam the Tiber delights in reporting [she’s quite the traveler] that the Mass is the same in every corner of the earth! That’s universality. Presbyterianism isn’t even the same thing over on the next block, let alone “Protestantism,” whatever that is.
“According to Ignatius, the defining characteristic of catholicity, i.e., of truly universal Christianity is the presence of Christ.
Was Ignatius at Nicea? You’re committing the sophistry of equivocation here. We are discussing only what “catholic” means in the Nicene context. Nicea was anything but about validating “micro-denominations” and theological pluralism.
As they say, read the whole thing…
We Confess A Holy Catholic Church
I’ve read your side. I actually expected the better sophistry of torturing what a “church” even is, [the ekklēsía riff] here, an argument with which I’m also familiar. But I’m not going to cede the definition of terms here, for your case rests on controlling the meaning of the essential terms.
“Micro-denomination” is the opposite of ‘catholic” by any plain understanding of the concept, regardless of translation.
Andew Buckingham
Posted April 30, 2015 at 8:53 pm | Permalink
Jack, and TVD concedes that the OPC is part of Christ’s church.
“Andew” can’t even spell his name anymore, poor fellow. But his pestering makes my point all the better: It’s quite right in that the Catholic position–that you’re ‘separated brethren’–is self-evidently more ‘catholic’ than the Reformation’s exponential schism upon schism upon schism.
Even via Jack’s attempt to detonate ‘catholic’ if not ‘church,’ the best a micro-denomination can get is a draw, that you’re at best part of the larger ‘catholic’ Church.
He’s playing games. Hello (http://adbuckingham.com/price.html).
There I go again..
No. I see through yours. And frankly, I’m not sure you see through these games, these sophistries. You’re repeating sophistries you’ve learned elsewhere, and they do seem reasonable until you hold them up to closer inspection, something you’ve never done. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person.
As for my “universalism,” yes, I pray that all will be saved. I hope all you “Elect” do too. Although i think many of you would be disappointed, ala Mt 20:1-16.
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Old Life word for the day: sophistry.
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TVD, three comments per day per thread only.
We can talk on my blog.
http://adbuckingham.com/category/roman-catholicism/
Comments open.
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Jack Miller
Posted April 30, 2015 at 9:23 pm | Permalink
Andrew, good catch on tvd’s past opining…
Jack, I appreciate your substantive replies and courteous tone. But Andrew linked to nothing. When it comes to Old Life, it’s always buyer beware. Squeeze the Charmin. Hiding one’s evidence behind a link is lazy at best, dishonest at worst.
And even if you did catch me in an inconsistency, that would not affect the current discussion one jog or iota, not would it make anything you’re advancing any more true. Seeking error is not the same thing as seeking truth.
For one thing, only the latter glorifies God. That’s the visible difference between polemics and apologetics, between Old Life and Called to Communion. Do follow Andrew’s links, if only to see the difference.
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D. G. Hart
Posted April 30, 2015 at 9:55 pm | Permalink
Old Life word for the day: sophistry.
Andrew Buckingham
Posted April 30, 2015 at 9:55 pm | Permalink
TVD, three comments per day per thread only.
We can talk on my blog.
http://adbuckingham.com/category/roman-catholicism/
Comments open.
C’mon, guys, Jack and I are trying to have a discussion. Find some other blog to troll.
Here.
http://adbuckingham.com/category/roman-catholicism/
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tvd,
Maybe I’ll respond later. Off to a micro-presbytery of a micro-denomination of the larger Christian family of faith which is the micro-called-out-of-the-world by grace…
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Jack Miller
Posted May 1, 2015 at 12:07 am | Permalink
tvd,
Maybe I’ll respond later. Off to a micro-presbytery of a micro-denomination of the larger Christian family of faith which is the micro-called-out-of-the-world by grace…
I like the “called by grace” part, Brother Jack, very much. Downright catholic, small “c.”
Are all men “called to grace?” Some more than others? You see where I’m going with this.
Your call.
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vd, t, aging boomer, you, you left out “Where’s the beef?”
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Tvd, I simply want to learn about Catholicism.
But if all you do is troll, then yes, kindly find some other blog than mine to visit.
Take care.
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How could I have left out this Call, a golden oldie from 1990?
From Call to Action.
So which is it Bryan? Call to Action, Called to be Catholic, or Called to Communion? So far, Action and Catholic have a whole lot more standing in the Communion to which Bryan and the Jasons call us than some little website. I mean, Roman Catholics issued calls before Called to Communion started and Bryan and the Jasons have yet to answer the calls of their own communion.
There must be 33,000 Roman Catholic calls out there.
#callsunheeded
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Call to Action, Called to be Catholic, or Called to Communion?
Unlike most of Protestantism, Catholicism is not governed by what amounts to no more than mob rule. It’s part of its charm, especially when that mob rule extends to understanding the Bible.
You ask, we answer.
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Tom,
Level with me here.
Protesantism numbers as much as 800 million, it’s not going anywhere, and it has problems just like Roman Catholicism does.
Do you realize, that when you make an argument against our system (protestantism), we can pretty much twist the argument exactly 180 degrees against romanism? I mean, come on, it’s a game, my friend. Talk with Darryl, not me. I’ll let you respond if you want to this idea I present (if that’s what it is), but you need to somehow find a peace about the prot/cath divide, and learn how to go forward embracing the tension that will exist until the eschaton. Bryan Cross figured it out somehow, and he has stopped posting. But you are regularly trying to take DGH to task, and it’s just pounding sand. I wish you the best, but here’s a question for you. If you could have one thing, anything at all, in your interactions here at oldlife, what would it be? What is it you are after? Trying to make a name for yourself amongst whomever might lurk? Name me the one thing that would make you happy above all else, in what you are trying to achieve. I’m trying to help man, you don’t see me posting with the drunk ex pastors or the callers, because I found my peace. My hope for you is that you find yours.
Take care.
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AndewAndrewOops, I did “andew” again, that is ever saved in the “cookies” of my web browser.
You said, “we answer.” So do you now identify as Roman Catholic? I will say, that is a major development in your interactions here at oldlife. I still have to get the x-wing out of the swamp for you around oldlife, and carry the weight. Keep going and show yourself to be brave and make your convictions public.
I don’t believe it
That is why you fail
🙂
next.
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For those who want to learn about the Catholic Church, here are some good resources. It is always better to go to the source, rather than to an anti-Catholic blog to find out what the Church teaches. Or, an even more absurd idea is to set up your own anti-Catholic blog as a way to try to figure out what the Church is. Listen to Catholics about what it means to be Catholic. You may not want to be Catholic, but how do you know? Why not attend an RCIA class in your area and find out for yourselves, if you are interested. You will at least gain a greater appreciation for the Church. I mean, Reformed people believe in the concept of catholicity.
US Conference of Catholic Bishops
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/evangelization/index.cfm
Catholic Answers
http://www.catholic.com
One big problem, if not the main problem with the Reformed movement is that it is in many ways the “we are not Catholic” movement – or movements. Then, that “we are not __________” breaks down even farther. “We are not Pentecostal.” “We are not Baptist.” “We are not mystical.” “We are not hipster.” Or even, “we are not PCA” or “we are not PCUSA”, and so forth. You get the idea.
I grew up in a Baptist Church that considered itself to be Calvinistic – which is a problem for a lot of Reformed people, ‘cuz maybe Baptists can’t really be Reformed and all that. I was a big fan of John MacArthur. Anyway, I have liked Dr. Sproul as well, and Dr. James Boice is one of my favorites. No, I do not have advanced degrees in Reformed theology.
I thank God for those who taught me the Gospel and the Word of God. I do have one connection with Machen. I memorized his Greek grammar book back in the day. It is a great little book. He had a positive impact on my life because of American fundamentalism, of course. I am grateful for his life, but I am now Catholic.
Now, small is not bad in and of itself, but how a group got to be so small is at least significant. Of course, one could argue that Protestantism grows by division somehow, rather than multiplication, but maybe there is a better way.
So, just ignore this post if you wish. I won’t be offended. It’s just that I have been lurking here for awhile and it is kind of painful to see people who want to learn about the Catholic Church seemingly unable to figure out how to go about it. Of course, this is my opinion and nothing more. IOW, don’t shoot! …and, no, I am not the new Susan. She is a sweetheart and y’all kinda’ missed an opportunity to learn from her, it seems to me. Anyway… be whatever you want to be, but if you want to learn about the Catholic Church, ask Catholics. It makes sense, doesn’t it?
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vd, t, Roman Catholicism is governed?
Not since the papacy lost its temporal powers (and not to mention its muscle in the Habsburgs).
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Mrs. Webfoot, so John Allen is not reliable about Roman Catholicism? Richard McBrien wasn’t an important voice propounding Roman Catholicism. The Leadership Conference of Women’s Religious? Everytime you want vanilla Roman Catholicism, I keep finding Rocky Road (and it’s pretty bumpy).
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Mrs Webfoot, you need to post your comment about people not of a religion speaking for that religion at called to communion dot com. Its misrepresenting for people if they wish to speak authoritatiely on a religious position while not of that persuation. The horses mouth is always best, you are right. But note DGH is most concerned with called to communion types, that’s how I read him. His scholarly work is noted by irenicism, for example, in the glowing review of this work by DGh, look into it
http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300148794
Reformed Christians are pro- Gospel full stop.
We are not marked by being “anti” catholic or anti anything.
Thanks for the feedback
Peace.
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AB, this blog is anti-Catholic in the sense of being critical of Catholicism and in opposition to her teachings. She is always cast in an unfavorable light. I am sure that no one here has any kind of personal hatred towards Catholics.
BTW, my favorite flavor of ice cream is vanilla. Even so, I am finding the Church to be anything but vanilla. She is full of beauty of every kind, and a delight to the senses as well as to the mind.
Take care
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Mrs. Webfoot, the blogger is somewhat of a controversialist, in my humble opinion. His other blog is entitled, putting the protest in protesant. If that doesn’t give you an idea of his temperment, which happens to make him quite interesting and fun to follow (agree with him or not), I don’t know what will. He doesn’t hold back punches (speaking of which, Floyd Mayweather defeated Manny Pacquiao, not that I am into boxing, I’d like to hear more about just where Spieth landed today in the match in San Francisco, I digress), whether the topic be tranformationalists, romanism, or someone’s poor taste in movies. So buckle your seatbelt, this blog can get interesting at times. I appreciate hearing from you and directing your thoughts at me. Take care.
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Mrs. Webfoot, as I said, I’m trying to get the apologists (who are everywhere in the RC blogosphere except — ahem — at any of the bishops’ websites) to take into account John Allen, Maureen Sullivan, Francis Oakley and Richard McBrien. Whom are Protestants supposed to believe as the authentic voices of Roman Catholicism? Why don’t the bishops give their seal of approval to a particular group of lay representatives?
Catholic Answers? Why not Vatican Answers?
Why isn’t this representative (I didn’t make it up — it’s on your side of the Tiber)?
Why should we take Bryan and the Jasons more seriously than National Catholic Reporter? Hint: it’s a complicated question that Catholic Answers isn’t going to answer. Neither is Vatican Answers.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 2, 2015 at 7:57 pm | Permalink
vd, t, Roman Catholicism is governed?
Not since the papacy lost its temporal powers (and not to mention its muscle in the Habsburgs).
Equivocal use of “governed,” sophistic. Old Life never fails to disappoint.
D. G. Hart
Posted May 3, 2015 at 7:37 am | Permalink
Mrs. Webfoot, as I said, I’m trying to get the apologists (who are everywhere in the RC blogosphere except — ahem — at any of the bishops’ websites) to take into account John Allen, Maureen Sullivan, Francis Oakley and Richard McBrien. Whom are Protestants supposed to believe as the authentic voices of Roman Catholicism?
Either dense or patently dishonest. She just told you.
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vd, t, so now Mrs. Webfoot is authoritative? Why her and not Michael Sean Winters?
Help a guy with some of that Delaware Valley brotherly love.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 3, 2015 at 3:40 pm | Permalink
vd, t, so now Mrs. Webfoot is authoritative? Why her and not Michael Sean Winters?
Help a guy with some of that Delaware Valley brotherly love.
I won’t insult your intelligence and believe you sincerely meant a word of what you just wrote, Butch.
But FTR, she didn’t say she was authoritative. She suggested Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) classes and the council of bishops both of which are. Michael Sean Winters, the “very flamboyant gay” Catholic seminary washout*, no.
Your perverse choice of “authoritative” sources like Mr. Winters speaks more of you than of Catholicism.
But I suppose your continued attacks on Catholicism via its chattering-class dissenters like Winters are a defense mechanism. While Winters is but part of a vocal fringe of Catholicism, Presbyterianism’s inmates have largely taken over the asylum. My sympathies, my Philly brother, but attacking Catholicism isn’t the way. Presbyterianism’s descent into theological anarchy is a structural problem.
________________________________
*http://throwthebumsoutin2010.blogspot.com/2010/02/who-is-michael-sean-winters-what-is-his.html
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Tom, did you watch MSW? At the conference? Here’s the link again that DGH was gracious to share:
Just watch the first five minutes. Your denigrating remarks of MSW are hardly charitable, and as fellow roman Catholics, the discord you have with him sure undercuts your criticism of reformed and our “structural” problems, as you state.
We’re in the same boat, epistemologically speaking, cats and prots, full stop. You offer no solutions, just ad Homs and cheap polemics against us the reformed. The very criticism you try to level at DGH.
I dont get why you continue here, is it for the lurkers? Well on, but you just repeat over and over what we the lurkers have been reading you saying already. You make this place look like rabies theologorum. DGH is one of the good guys, come on, even you and him are from the same hood, same baseball team. Figure your way out of the morass of these endless comment box wars and let someone else chime in for a change. You’ve been at it way too long. I say give it a rest, or not, you seem to like it here. Enjoy your Lord’s day, I enjoy seeing your name show up, bro. Have pity on these non-Californians. See, I can repeat my platitudes too!
Fore,
Andrew
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D.G.H., no I am not authoritative, but I did provide links where you can find reliable information on what the Catholic Church teaches.
I suppose I should have led with the Holy See.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html
Then there is Fr. Robert Barron who did the Catholicism series with is used extensively in RCIA classes around the country. Word on Fire is well-accepted in all the Catholic churches I have visited so far.
http://www.wordonfire.org
Then there is the Symbolon series put out by Lighthouse Catholic Media.
http://www.lighthousecatholicmedia.org/symbolon?gclid=CKvX7orApsUCFcZcfgodSrUA4g
There are many, many more resources out there for someone who wants to gain a better understanding of the Catholic faith. No, you don’t have to convert, but I am trying to help you connect with resources that will give you a better understanding of what is going on if you ever attend Mass or even just step inside a Catholic Church. The choice is yours.
I will give a little bit of advice, the kind that our grandson’s heart doctor at Texas Children’s told us before he was born. She said to stay away from the blogs, but rather to listen to the doctors who know what they are doing.
Now, if you want to gain an inadequate understanding of what the Church is about, why not just read the WCF? You don’t even have to visit the blogs.
BTW, when I wanted to know what Presbyterians were all about, I began to study the WCF. I spent time talking with Presbyterian pastors and apologists. No, I am far from being an expert, but I do have a pretty good understanding of what conservative Presbyterians believe.
Maybe others use different methods, but I like to get my information from primary, reliable sources.. I was under the impression that you, D.G.H., were a serious academic. I may have been mistaken. If so, I apologize for disrupting your blog.
BTW, I know some OPC people, but to make sure I had a handle of what y’all believe, I visited the official OPC website. In fact, I found that the book I had been using to study the WCF was written by one of your men, Pastor Williamson. It is very well done. I just converted to the Catholic Church before I finished the whole study.
I would recommend it to anyone who wants to know what the OPC understanding of the WCF is all about.
Thank you for your time, and again, I apologize if I annoyed anyone. Not my intention.
Take care,
Mrs. Webfoot
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Mrs. Webfoot,
Thanks but I get all that. I am aware of orthodox Roman Catholicism (which Vatican 2 did not exactly apply even in a pastoral way).
But what I don’t get is that so many of the people speaking for Rome to would-be converts are not the bishops but are Mark Shea, Jimmy Aikin and Patrick Madrid.
I also don’t get that so many who hold positions of authority — such as faculty at RC universities and colleges — don’t articulate or defend RC orthodoxy.
So if someone is calling us to communion with Rome, are we also going to be in communion with Garry Wills and John Allen? In the world of conservative Presbyterianism, someone gets in trouble for departing from the WCF. But no penalties seem to come for wayward RC’s who speak publicly for the faith.
So the question is where is the discipline? The magisterium and the papacy are supposed to guarantee order and fidelity, and so prevent 33,000 denominations. But it seems at times, with 1.2 billion RC’s, you have way more than 33,000 opinions.
What do I have wrong about this understanding of incoherence in contemporary Roman Catholicism? It may be a great tradition, though the Renaissance popes would not allow me if I were RC to speak confidently about such a great tradition (for starters). But what about the church today?
Inquiring and protesting minds want to know.
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Mrs. Webfoot, in addition to the Williamson book on understanding the WCF, RC Sproul’s video series What is Reformed Theology? is a good primer for people looking to learn about us. It’s not charitable to say that we reformed are just “anti-” everything. Your words:
That’s patently wrong, and it undercuts your statement that you understand us, the reformed. In short, the reformation was not a revolution, it was a REFORMation. And it has been wildly and exceedingly successful in bringing the truths of the Christian religion to the masses, the english speaking world, and so many more. You should continue your studies of us, don’t stop at the WCF with williamson, go to Carl Trueman’s, “Luther on the Christian Life,” JV Fesko’s “The Theology of the Westminster Standards,” JV Fesko’s “Justification – Understanding the Classic Reformed Doctrine,” or Mike Horton’s “John Calvin on the Christian Life,” or sooooo many other resources. I would encourage you or any inquiring catholic who finds themselves in reformed webernet space to keep on learning about who we are and why we believe what we do. My twitter feed and blog exist to help people whomever would find me to enable them to ask questions as they feel desire to, that’s what DGH is doing. Keep on learning, the more you get to know us, the more you’ll like, I feel confident in saying that. You may not convert to our way of things, that’s OK. Saving faith is acknowledging Jesus as savior, and saying, as Machen says, with that strange indivdiualizing power of faith, “He loved me and gave Himself for me…When a person says that, he/she is a ransomed soul, a child of God forever” (paraphrase from Machen’s What is Faith)
I really could go on and on..
grace and peace,
ab
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Well, Mrs. Webfoot, you did and do continue to annoy some of us.
One, for all your touting of primary sources you left out the Bible.
(Of course I was taught in a Jesuit prep school about primary sources also, but as above, the source above all sources was conveniently – and dare I say jesuitically – left out.)
Two, it should go without saying, but doesn’t obviously, that it is one thing to be a Roman catholic, another to be a reformed catholic. Your remarks would seem to be oblivious to the distinction, but then again, baptists tend to anabaptist separatism rather than protestant catholicism.
Three, you’re here on a bwog, but decry them. What gives? (A rhetorical question. We all have our excuses.)
But as someone born and raised in Romanism, i.e. implicit faith and well acquainted with the papist dialectic, I’ll cease and desist other than to note that yeah, Susan is a real sweetheart, but she’s been handled with kid gloves because she’s female imo. She generally doesn’t have a clue about what the reformed faith is and the implications of her own position, but I am already a rude chauvinist for saying so.
Ditto the rest of those who show up to defend the unholy and unapostolic Roman church.
Bryan still can’t for the life of him or his credibility, get past caricaturizing sola scriptura as solo scriptura/anabaptist anarchism. That schtick has been ongoing since 2009, but we’re unecumenical and schismatic for noticing and bringing it up? The guy claims to be ex reformed for crying out loud.
Jason? Like a couple of childhood priests I knew, he’s got a better thing going with a bottle of Jack Daniels and can’t be bothered, contra his promise to what? give us a book on why he left instead of the epheremal maunderings of a bwog, now given over to his understudy Nick last time I checked.
Negativism? Vide The Veronian Disciple aka TVD hisself. Rome is the true church, but he has yet to darken the door and regularly attend the wicked idolatry of the mass (H.Cat. 80), never mind get baptized and at least nominally join up to our knowledge.
Oh well. A big tent is a big tent and everybody’s welcome as long as you say the right words.
(Was that “anathema” or “separated brethren”, I can’t remember? )
cheers
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ps regarding your comment about the blogs, think of the blogs (called to communion, american creation, oldlife, whichever it is) the way tim keller explains here, start at the 52:30 time stamp if you are interested:
http://9marks.org/interview/life-ministry-and-books-with-tim-keller-part-2-ministry/
i am in agreement with this presby pastor Rev. Tim Keller. He basically says that his twitter feed is a billboard, so in a sense, an advertisement for what he is doing. That’s all these things are, they are not good coversational tools. You are welcome to visit my blog (adbuckingham dot com) and find category “blogging”, i have a few articles there that reflect my opinion about these theological webernets. in the main, you are right, there’s very little light being generated in these blogologic theology discussions. it does happen, but more likely than not, these things just lead to more headaches for whichever poor soul happens upon them (sorry readers, we are all kind of part of this sick system). i’m out.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 3, 2015 at 5:45 pm | Permalink
The magisterium and the papacy are supposed to guarantee order and fidelity, and so prevent 33,000 denominations.
It did prevent 33,000 denominations. And denominations of only 33,000 like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
By contrast, the Reformation spawned them. It’s a structural problem when every man is his own pope.
As for Garry Wills, he is the exception, not the rule. He who argues the former against the latter seeks not truth, only rhetorical victory.
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33,000
or
33,333,333,333,333,333,333,333,333,000
it doesn’t matter. We confess sola scriptura:
TVDfails (again..)
This is getting old.
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Okay, D.G.H., I understand a bit better what you are saying. You do not want to be in communion with those who have obviously strayed from orthodoxy, even orthodox Catholicism. Do I understand you correctly? So, how can such a blanket call be made to come into communion with the Church when parts of it are not spiritually or doctrinally healthy at all? Something like that. I can understand that.
If that is what you are saying, I would counter with this. Was the Apostle Paul right in trying to get people to believe in Christ and then enter the church of Corinth, for example? The church was a mess, but they were still called saints of God by him. In fact, the same could be said about all of the NT churches, with the exception of Smyrna.
They were still part of Christ’s Body, the Church, flaws and all. Things needed to be corrected, of course, but he didn’t tell people to stay away until everything was cleaned up. He did not tell anyone in Corinth or in any other local church to take off and start their own brand of Christianity.
It is the Protestant tendency to divide from one another, and keep dividing and keep separating that is kind of a problem. Nothing is ever really cleaned up that way, IMO. The constant splitting and never really resolving anything among Protestants is one of the things that made me take a closer look at Rome.
Protestantism, – while I still love it and am grateful for all it has given me – has no real mechanism for resolving conflicts. Sure, there are many conflicts within Catholicism, but there are also ways to resolve them and to bring about reform without resorting to mob rule. The only mechanism is division, which is hard to defend biblically.
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ProtestantismRomanism, – while I still love it and am grateful for all it has given me – has no real mechanism for resolving conflicts. Sure, there are many conflicts withinCatholicismProtestantism, but there are also ways to resolve them and to bring about reform without resorting tomobpapal rule. The only mechanism isdivisionmonarchism, which is hard to defend biblically.non-autobot AB comment: This reminds me of Susan..
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Thanks for the suggestions, AB. Yes, I’ll take a look.
I have R.C.’s series as well. Thanks. Take care.
…and I have R.C.’s series as well. He’s a good man.
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vd, t, sure. You always have your finger on the pulse (of your mullet):
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Mrs. Webfoot, that is largely the problem, though I think a lot of the hype about Rome’s strengths is just that — hype. Vatican 2 was a game changer. Lots of RC’s know that and experience it (meat on Friday no longer a mortal sin? for starters). So Rome doesn’t offer the solution that you say it does.
And Vatican 2 also changes your own reply. I am now according to your bishops a separated brother and Protestants have some of the truth. So going to Protestantism isn’t all that bad.
Don’t you see how that puts a Rome-is-superior view into a bit of a puzzle?
Plus, if RC’s really believe what they say they do, why reclassify schismatics as separated brothers. Doctrine didn’t change at Vat 2. But actually it did. You know them by the way they pastor. I’d have far more confidence in bishops who told me I shouldn’t read Calvin. Now, what do they say? “whatever”. Think Kasper and Wuerl. It’s not just Garry Wills.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 3, 2015 at 9:44 pm | Permalink
vd, t, sure. You always have your finger on the pulse (of your mullet):
The percentage of U.S. Catholics who consider themselves “strong” members of the Roman Catholic Church has never been lower than it was in 2012, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of new data from the General Social Survey (GSS). About a quarter (27%) of American Catholics called themselves “strong” Catholics last year, down more than 15 points since the mid-1980s and among the lowest levels seen in the 38 years since strength of religious identity was first measured in the GSS, a long-running national survey carried out by the independent research organization NORC at the University of Chicago.
The decline among U.S. Catholics is even starker when they are compared with Protestants, whose strength of religious identification has been rising in recent years. About half (54%) of American Protestants – double the Catholic share (27%) – described their particular religious identity as strong last year, among the highest levels since the GSS began asking the question in 1974.
Ecclesiastical apples and oranges, Butch. Unlike Presbyterianism and most of the rest of Protestantism, Catholicism is not subject to mob rule. Your attempts to discredit it via its dissidents actually testifies to its ability to withstand the theological fads of history.
As for evangelicals, who no doubt account for the lion’s share of Protestant enthusiasm [the Protestant Mainline is circling the bowl], good for them. Although the evangelical mind is said to be a “scandal,” unlike their theological betters in the Protestant chattering class, they seem to appreciate the natural law just fine [google “Evangelicals and Catholics Together”] as well as some of the finer things in Christian life.
http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2015/04/all-i-really-need-to-know-i-learned-from-evangelicalism
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DGH: The magisterium and the papacy are supposed to guarantee order and fidelity, and so prevent 33,000 denominations.
TVD: It did prevent 33,000 denominations …By contrast, the Reformation spawned them. It’s a structural problem when every man is his own pope.
Funny thing, that. I had the interesting experience about 5 years ago attending a Greek cultural festival held in the back yard of a GO church in Columbus OH. The church was open, and I walked in.
I was greeted with some variant of this chart.
It clearly lays the blame for denominations at the feet of a Roman Catholic power grab.
So: Does the RC magisterium prevent schism or cause schism? Freshman essay theme, three paragraphs, forty-five minutes. Go.
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 3, 2015 at 10:06 pm | Permalink
DGH: The magisterium and the papacy are supposed to guarantee order and fidelity, and so prevent 33,000 denominations.
TVD: It did prevent 33,000 denominations …By contrast, the Reformation spawned them. It’s a structural problem when every man is his own pope.
Funny thing, that. I had the interesting experience about 5 years ago attending a Greek cultural festival held in the back yard of a GO church in Columbus OH. The church was open, and I walked in.
I was greeted with some variant of this chart.
It clearly lays the blame for denominations at the feet of a Roman Catholic power grab.
So: Does the RC magisterium prevent schism or cause schism? Freshman essay theme, three paragraphs, forty-five minutes. Go.
Since it still accounts for half or more than half of Christianity–and is in communion with the Eastern Orthodox–and “Protestantism” has atomized into hundreds or thousands of sects [the 33,000 figure is unfair]
Catholicism prevents schism
Protestantism multiplies schism, exponentially.
It’s a structural thing, once you make every man a pope.
45 seconds, not 45 minutes. You ask, we answer.
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vd, t, love your stubbornness. I’m sure you still think the Phillies are better than the Yankees. Rock (the Cookies) on, yo.
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vd, t, “we answer.”
You’re back in church and now a bishop?
Does your wife know you stopped the medication?
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EO is in communion with Rome?
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TVD is just silly, thinks we are The Bearded Spock Universe, we reformed.
He’s mostly harmless, I’m sure he loves the attention.
Keep at it, TVD, you’ll get us someday. Until then, enjoy the silly back and forth with Darryl. You’re a goof and we all dig it.
Yo.
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Why is a guy who breaks away and forms a denomination od several is a schismatic while the recovering RCs forming “spiritual but not religious” denominations of one (the fastest growing religious identity in the US) aren’t. Given the freefall of RCC adherence in Ireland, central/south America, and among US citizens it seems to me that RCs have no room to boast. If unity on paper and admission to the table is all that counts there are more like three or four protestant sects.
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sdb
Posted May 3, 2015 at 10:21 pm | Permalink
EO is in communion with Rome?
Yes, they recognize each other’s sacraments as licit. Including that Eastern Orthodox priests are licitly ordained in “apostolic succession,” meaning that the Eucharist they consecrate is the Real Presence.
It’s all quite interesting. In fact, in an effort to avoid the usual degradation of principled discourse, I was just C&Ping from Darryl’s original attack
For instance, the folks at Notre Dame recognize diversity in the church. Bryan and the Jasons only see unity as the “real” condition of their communion.
I quite agree with the latter. Theologically speaking, it is the sacraments that are important, not Notre Dame and its currying favor with the Catholic chattering class [and its non-Catholic fans like Darryl] such as the aforementioned Messrs. Garry Wills and Michael Sean Winters.
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SDB, the RCs here posting are going through epistemic crises, don’t they know all they need to do is subscribe to @pontifex and stay off reformed webernets?
Poor TVD, another 20 comments in the next two days here at OL is my guess, Darryl really knows how to get under his skin.
Again, you RCs: here’s your papi, pay pray and obey, yo:
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D.G. Hart, why do you think Pope Francis did not appoint any US bishops this time around?
What do you think of this article? How to get around the anathema thing was something I have wondered about, too. I read a few years back something about it being only against the specific way that Luther taught justification by faith alone. The Church has no problem with justification by faith. It was Luther’s attempt to get rid of the book of James altogether that got him into big trouble. That is my understanding, and nothing official.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/939/the_pope_martin_luther_and_our_time.aspx
Pope Benedict had very kind words to say about Martin Luther. In fact, he seems to like Luther more than I ever did!
Not sure what level of authority The Catholic World Report has, but Benedict had a lot at the time of the writing of this article. He still does. Ignatius Press is big in the New Evangelization. I think the article is legit. See what you think.
The fact that the Church considered Protestants to already be a part of the Church was a strong selling point for me.
Well, I have exceeded my limit for the day, so I thank you for your kind attention. Maybe we’ll talk again. Take care.
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Webfoot,
Erik charter (online friend of mine) mentioned you:
http://literatecomments.com/2015/05/03/of-what-value-is-christian-unity-if-your-own-house-is-a-mess/
You are doing great here at olts. Much better than Tom.
Keep it up. I’m grateful you seek darryls opinion.
He’s fantastic.
Grace and peace.
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sdb
Posted May 3, 2015 at 10:33 pm | Permalink
Why is a guy who breaks away and forms a denomination od several is a schismatic while the recovering RCs forming “spiritual but not religious” denominations of one (the fastest growing religious identity in the US) aren’t. Given the freefall of RCC adherence in Ireland, central/south America, and among US citizens it seems to me that RCs have no room to boast. If unity on paper and admission to the table is all that counts there are more like three or four protestant sects.
SDB, you’re not acknowledging the necessary theological distinction between magisterium and mob rule. It’s the structural difference.
TVD: It did prevent 33,000 denominations …By contrast, the Reformation spawned them. It’s a structural problem when every man is his own pope.
What is the truth?
Catholicism’s approach to theological truth is like Jeopardy!, Protestantism’s is Family Feud. Survey says…!
http://www.christianpost.com/news/pcusa-church-ordains-first-married-lesbian-couple-as-ministers-days-after-denominations-marriage-amendment-136111/
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Tom, I’m also proud of you. You’re learning to put your neck out and publicly stand by your religious convictions. On the whole, this thread has been good from you. Learn from this and build.I had to learn how to converse with Catholics, CTC was where I cut my teeth in 2012. I mean it, good job here. I’m always here to help. Have a good week. Grace and peace, from the BSU 😉
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From the Catholic World Report article (third to last para.):
Here faith is the key—a theme, no doubt, intended to stir an audience of pastors who affirm “justification by faith alone”, though Pope Benedict certainly does not endorse that expression in his exhortation to faith.
Note bene as clearly mentioned.
B does not endorse justification by faith alone.
IOW B does not believe the Reformation gospel.
End of story/pretended ecumenicism/make nice with protestants.
Yes, Rome does believe in justification by faith. . . working in love i.e. a semi pelagian works righteousness kind of justification.
For the newbs and the rubes that may be close enough for everybody to join hands and sing Kumbaya heartily, but Trinity Review still has the best exposé of the difference imo.
Justification by Faith: Romanism and Protestantism
Q. What is justification?
A. It is a grace which makes us friends of God.
Q. Can a sinner merit this justifying grace?
A. No, he cannot; because all the good works which the sinner performs whilst he is in a state of mortal sin, are dead works, which have no merit sufficient to justify.
Q. Is it an article of the Catholic faith, that the sinner cannot merit the grace of justification?
A. Yes, it is decreed in the seventh chap. of the sixth sess. of the Council of Trent, that neither faith, nor good works, preceding justification, can merit the grace of justification.
Q. How then is the sinner justified?
A. He is justified gratuitously by the pure mercy of God, not on account of his own or any human merit, but purely through the merits of Jesus Christ; for Jesus Christ is our only mediator of redemption, who alone, by his passion and death, has reconciled us to his Father.
Q. Why then do Protestants charge us with believing, that the sinner can merit the redemption of his sins?
A. Their ignorance of the Catholic doctrine is the cause of this, as well as many other false charges (Rev. Stephen Keenan, Doctrinal Catechism, 138, 139).
Many Protestants are awakening to the fact that the Roman Catholic Church does teach a doctrine of justification by faith. With surprise they are saying, “I always thought that Catholics taught that a sinner could be justified by his own works of merit. But they do not teach this. I have been subjected to some uncharitable Protestant propaganda about Catholic doctrine. Why, they believe in the saving grace of God the same as we do!” There is no question but that Catholic doctrine has always taught that a sinner is justified by a grace that comes from God through the Lord Jesus Christ. Then what was the doctrinal bone of contention between the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation?
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Rome disingenuously always remains the same in idolizing human merit.
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The Romanist Concept of Justification
The Roman State-Church does not teach that a sinner can be justified by his own works of merit done before he is regenerated. Briefly, its position on justification is this: Christ’s work for us has made the gift of the Holy Spirit available to believers. Men must receive an infusion of righteousness by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit must work repentance and charity (love) in the believer. God then pronounces the believer just because of the work that the Holy Spirit has done in him. If the believer continues in his belief and good works, then his justification is increased.
Or to express it another way: The Roman State-Church teaches that a man is justified before God because the Holy Spirit has given that man a just nature. God the Father merely recognizes the work which the Holy Spirit has done in the heart of the believer. Justification means to make just or righteous, according to Roman theology.
<a href="http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=29"<Justification by Faith: Romanism and Protestantism
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Mrs. Webfoot
Posted May 3, 2015 at 11:47 pm | Permalink
The fact that the Church considered Protestants to already be a part of the Church was a strong selling point for me.
Quite a good argument for its being the catholic church per the Nicene Creed, small “c,” esp when compared to “Reformed” or “Lutheran” or “Presbyterian,” “Methodist” or etc., etc., etc., none of which appear in the Nicene Creed.
Catholic Church is a good name. In fact, when capital “C” is used, either for “Catholic” or “the Church,” it invariably refers to the Catholic Church.
Today, perhaps embarrassed by its hundreds or thousands of sects, the Reformation makes no effort to arrogate “catholic” for itself anymore, although they once tried.
Jeez, “Presbyterian” has no real meaning anymore after the recent PCUSA apostasy. Whereas the Catholic Church still encompasses the vast majority of Catholics [real or imagined], “Presbyterianism” is a Babel.
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TVD re:presbyter,
Wrong:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyter
Go back to jeopardy 😛
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Bob S
Posted May 4, 2015 at 12:35 am | Permalink
Yes, Rome does believe in justification by faith. . . working in love i.e. a semi pelagian works righteousness kind of justification.
For the newbs and the rubes that may be close enough for everybody to join hands and sing Kumbaya heartily, but Trinity Review still has the best exposé of the difference imo.
Justification by Faith: Romanism and Protestantism
Many Protestants are awakening to the fact that the Roman Catholic Church does teach a doctrine of justification by faith.
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Rome disingenuously always remains the same in idolizing human merit.
Bob S
Posted May 4, 2015 at 12:39 am | Permalink
The Romanist Concept of Justification
Etc., etc.
Bob, you guys bore the piss out of God and man with this same slander, over and over again. Catholicism doesn’t teach that, and I defy you to find one pope or Garry Wills dissident who believes one can overcome his sins or rejection of God by being “a good person.”
How could you waste so much time ginning this up in an attempt to insert yourself into this thread? I don’t get it. Andrew’s attempts to insert himself I understand, but this is out of left field. Nobody said it, nobody believes it.
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Tvd or anyone,
We watch “by faith alone” by RC Sproul tonight at church.
This Sproul series Webfoot says she has and has seen and appreciates is fantastic.
Goodnight.
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Mrs, Webfoot, if it was just Luther, then why the Spanish Inquisition in the Calvinist Netherlands? I don’t ask to throw up an unpleasant part of European history — though the apologists for Rome never seem to acknowledge the dark along with the “true, good, and beautiful.” But the Inquisition makes sense if you take Trent seriously. If the bishops in Rome during the 1960s took Trent seriously, then why separated brethren.
Sorry, but my read of Benedict is that he’s a neo-conservative RC, sort of the way Barth was neo-orthodox. Benedict is trying to have one foot in critical scholarship, and one on the traditional Roman Catholic world. Pius X didn’t think that was possible.
Face it, Rome lost its resolve. Between Trent and 1960 Rome was contra mundum. Now Rome walks “alongside” the world with a Mr. Rogers sense of kindness and gentleness. Not my cup of tea.
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vd, t, serious question. If you’re so sweet on Calvinism and the American Revolution, why are you so condemning of Calvinism and Rome?
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@TVD
Regarding communion… that doesn’t sound right. My understanding is that RCs and EOs are barred from one another’s tables because they are not in full communion. We (prots, EOs, and RCs) recognize one another’s baptisms as valid, thus we are in a sort of “partial communion”, but not in full communion.
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TVD: 45 seconds, not 45 minutes. You ask, we answer.
Answering quickly and rashly is so … freshman-like, ya know?
The EO charge is that Rome’s demand for papal supremacy led directly to schism. Your response?
TVD: Since it still accounts for half or more than half of Christianity–and is in communion with the Eastern Orthodox–and “Protestantism” has atomized into hundreds or thousands of sects … Catholicism prevents schism Protestantism multiplies schism, exponentially.
This answer is non-responsive to the issue. Catholicism was unable to prevent schism within her own ranks. The EO looks at that situation and concludes that it is the RC that set the stage for schism.
Further, your one control (what part of “three paragraphs” was unclear?) contradicts your own theology. Rome does not hold that the church is found where the majority of Christians are, but where the pope is. So “accounting for half or more than half of Christianity” is no evidence that Catholicism prevents schism.
So you get “F: Resubmit for improved credit.”
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Yet it (unlike the EO communion) didn’t prevent England from breaking away and forming the Anglican church, the Scots from forming the Presbyterian church, the Germans the Lutheran church, etc… now it is unable to stem the flow of Irish, C/S-american, and US RCs from breaking away and forming nano-denominations (spiritual but not religious churches of one).
What is the difference between 30,000 confessional presbyterians leaving the PCUSA and forming one denomination and 30,000 RCs leaving the RCC and forming 30,000?
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@TVD
I don’t get your mob-rule/magisterium theological distinction. I’ve pointed to the empirical data showing that RCs are leading the way on the redefinition of marriage, acceptance of divorce and co-habitation (they are worse than mainliners taken a whole). Going from country to country, we see the same trend. What RCs have is unity of paper with no meaningful discipline. There really is mob-rule among RCs – everyone does whatever they want with no consequence. Why breakaway today even if you’ve “moved beyond” Jesus as a certain president of the LCWR seems to have done?
The things that changed between say ~1500 and ~2000 are that the church lost the power of the sword. They are left with moral suasion and it hasn’t been particularly effective. The Hussites and Huguenots weren’t crushed by the power of the magisterium but at the point of the sword. Now even RC strongholds such as Ireland and SA are in membership freefall. What is unique about America is the combination of wealth, religious freedom, and entrepreneurialism. We have a constellation of religious startups unlike anywhere else in the world. And it isn’t just happening to Christianity. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism – much smaller groups than Christianity have seen their own bifurcations in the US unparalleled in their respective homelands.
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Sorry, SDB, Darryl’s blocking my replies again. He does this whenever he’s seriously on the ropes.
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vd, t and db, s, comments are always open. Vd, t is always paranoid.
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Ah, my 4 attempts at a reply were eaten by the Ghost in the Machine, is all. Good. Maybe I can have my picture back.
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Come on, Tom. What do you think this website is, Called To Communion?
Comments are always open. Lookin’ good there, champ.
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D.G.Hart, thanks for your response. Are you a former Catholic?
I joined the Catholic Church for a number of reasons. First of all, through my studies I came to realize that the Church fathers were all Catholic. Yes, I know that is kind of obvious, but they really were Catholic. In fact, Augustine, the hero of the Reformed movement, actually prayed to Mary.
In a way, I have teachers like R.C. Sproul to thank for encouraging people to learn about church history. A lot of us who actually do that end up in the Catholic Church.
Then, I know that many in the Reformed camp have been very critical of Evangelicalism in general because of its inability to apply any kind of reasonable church discipline, especially on para church organizations. Actually, there is no mechanism in the Reformed churches, either.
There is no way for Protestantism to coherently address the problems that plague it.
The WCF helps somewhat, except that no leader is conscience bound to adhere to all of it. Each one is allowed to follow his own conscience, which is fine. Why can a pastor be called up on charges of not being WCF compliant, then? So, if he can lose his job over something that is allegedly not binding on his conscience.
…and so Presbyterianism goes down on a technicality.
I’m not telling anyone why he needs to leave Protestantism. I am just sharing some of the things that helped me go for a swim. …with malice towards none, with charity for all.
Thank you for your time.
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Webfoot,
RC is great, but try Dr. Bray, especially these I’ve linked you to, Church History II. His church History I is also worth your time.
I could say a lot more, but you are wrong. Presbyism does not go down on a technicality. If it helps you feel better about your decision to see those words written by you on a computer screen, keep it up. The rest of us are unaffected, and we appreciate hearing your interesting ideas and experience. It helps us learn what goes on with people who reject the teaching that we embrace.
Take care.
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Mrs. Webfoot, do you know how arbitrary your comment is?
You know, just because Protestantism has problems doesn’t make Rome — like — all that coherent or disciplined. It looks to me that Rome suffers any number of the problems that have afflicted liberal Protestantism. (See today’s post about Social Gospels.) So if you’re going to convince anyone who isn’t gullible about Rome, you need to make a much better argument, say, like Protestantism gets a D- for its performance on church tests and Rome gets a D.
No, I was not (and never plan to be) Roman Catholic. Too much delusion. Nicene orthodoxy is hard enough to believe. I don’t need more things that defy credulity.
Sorry to sound so dismissive, but do you converts ever hear yourselves?
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Darryl, look who one of her favorite bands, is:
D. G. Hart
Posted May 4, 2015 at 8:49 pm | Permalink
Mrs. Webfoot, do you know how arbitrary your comment is?
I joined the Catholic Church Assemblies of God for a number of reasons. First of all, through my studies I came to realize that the Church fathers were all Catholic Eastern Orthodox. Yes, I know that is kind of obvious, but they really were Catholic part of the Eastern church. In fact, Augustine, the hero of the Reformed movement, actually prayed to Mary.
How arbitrary. The Assemblies of God don’t pray to Mary.
You know, just because Protestantism has problems doesn’t make Rome — like — all that coherent or disciplined. It looks to me that Rome suffers any number of the problems that have afflicted liberal Protestantism. (See today’s post about Social Gospels.) So if you’re going to convince anyone who isn’t gullible about Rome, you need to make a much better argument, say, like Protestantism gets a D- for its performance on church tests and Rome gets a D.
Attack, attack attack. A religion based on attack, on what it’s not, isn’t much of one. And unresponsive to her killer point, unable to sustain its own central tenets, even by its own standards.
The WCF helps somewhat, except that no leader is conscience bound to adhere to all of it. Each one is allowed to follow his own conscience, which is fine. Why can a pastor be called up on charges of not being WCF compliant, then? So, if he can lose his job over something that is allegedly not binding on his conscience.
…and so Presbyterianism goes down on a technicality.
Punkt.
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TVD, your a yankees fanboy.
Sorry, but your team can suck it.
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vd, t, still figuring out how to use the internet, huh. That’s the third email address you’ve used today.
I haven’t yet seen you respond to a single charge. I can’t imagine this works on game shows. But when your mullet goes cowlick, or the drummer for Cookies misses a beat, as you say, mebbe.
Why are you so hard on contemporary Protestants when you give them so much credit for the American founding? Why not malign David Barton the way you do the OPC?
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 4, 2015 at 9:47 pm | Permalink
vd, t, still figuring out how to use the internet, huh. That’s the third email address you’ve used today.
I haven’t yet seen you respond to a single charge. I can’t imagine this works on game shows. But when your mullet goes cowlick, or the drummer for Cookies misses a beat, as you say, mebbe.
Why are you so hard on contemporary Protestants when you give them so much credit for the American founding? Why not malign David Barton the way you do the OPC?
Odd you’re perusing the email addresses I used. Perhaps your other correspondents occasionally find it impossible to post. Perhaps it’s the Ghost in the Machine. But that’s why I used a number of email addresses, to defeat whatever technical problems the Old Life blog was giving me
😉
and reply to my polite correspondents such as Mr./Mrs. “SDB.”
So yes, I formulated my replies earlier this afternoon but was unable to post them. Glad to see you’ve been breathlessly awaiting.
For the moment, though, I think Mrs. Webfoot has you quite flummoxed on substance, Butch. I’ll post my reply to the “charges” from you and your surrogates later, but I’m not going to help you and Andrew bury her quite elegant argument, which cuts to the root of the ecclesiastical problem of dissent and magisterium, every man his own pope.
,i>The WCF helps somewhat, except that no leader is conscience bound to adhere to all of it. Each one is allowed to follow his own conscience, which is fine. Why can a pastor be called up on charges of not being WCF compliant, then? So, if he can lose his job over something that is allegedly not binding on his conscience.
…and so Presbyterianism goes down on a technicality.
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TVD, in seriousness, you don’t see that this is all a game.
Even if you and webby are right, of the 85 million presbyterian and reformed christians, there are about 15 MAYBE reading your oh so wonderful and truly original (really) points here. You’ve reached 0.0000176% of presbyterians, none of which are going to agree with you anyway.
You should work on playing bass for the cookies and stop wasting your time. for your sake, alone.
who’s next?
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@ TVD, Mrs Webfoot (may I call you Puddleglum? Kidding)
The premise is incorrect. Officers may not follow their own consciences, but must declare exceptions to their Presbyteries, who must approve exceptions. The usual list of allowable exceptions is short.
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AB
Posted May 4, 2015 at 11:03 pm | Permalink
TVD, in seriousness, you don’t see that this is all a game.
For you it’s a game. And I suppose for Darryl, who lets you make a joke of his blog, shouting down every single comment with no wit, reason or rhyme.
Darryl, you really should give Erik his old job back.
Jeff Cagle
Posted May 4, 2015 at 11:11 pm | Permalink
@ TVD, Mrs Webfoot (may I call you Puddleglum? Kidding)
The premise is incorrect. Officers may not follow their own consciences, but must declare exceptions to their Presbyteries, who must approve exceptions. The usual list of allowable exceptions is short.
A principled reply, Jeff. Sorry our previous conversation was disrupted–I must table my reply, as Mrs. Webfoot has cut to the chase quite better, in your own “confessional” language. Even by your own truth claims, the WCF offers itself only as a set of propositions, not truths.
Yet it puts people on ecclesiastical trial for dissenting from mere propositions that the church itself does not even affirm as truths!
Mrs. Webfoot, remains unrefuted, and barely rebutted.
The WCF helps somewhat, except that no leader is conscience bound to adhere to all of it. Each one is allowed to follow his own conscience, which is fine. Why can a pastor be called up on charges of not being WCF compliant, then? So, if he can lose his job over something that is allegedly not binding on his conscience.
…and so Presbyterianism goes down on a technicality.
On its own technicalities, by its standards, we must add. No Catholicism in sight.
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TVD, you invoke Erik’s name?
As Erik says, he’s the mean one. I’m just boring.
As I said, you are becoming more brave in your beliefs. Kudos. And thanks for this, too.
Grace and peace.
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@tvd since when don’t confessional presbys affirm their standards as “true”? The second ordination vow contradicts your assertion.
Contra your score keeping it seems to me that the RC “paradigm ” solves nothing. It simply kicks the epistemolgical can down the road and does nothing to bring unity in practice.
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sdb
Posted May 5, 2015 at 12:26 am | Permalink
@tvd since when don’t confessional presbys affirm their standards as “true”? The second ordination vow contradicts your assertion.
Contra your score keeping it seems to me that the RC “paradigm ” solves nothing. It simply kicks the epistemolgical can down the road and does nothing to bring unity in practice.
SDB, I have yielded the floor to Mrs. Webfoot [see above]. We’ll pick up our discussion later, perhaps, inshallah. Since you claim to replace the Catholic Church, in the end your [Calvinist] religion’s truth claims have nothing to do with Catholicism. They must stand on their own,
_________________________
Mrs. Webfoot, remains unrefuted, and barely rebutted.
The WCF helps somewhat, except that no leader is conscience bound to adhere to all of it. Each one is allowed to follow his own conscience, which is fine. Why can a pastor be called up on charges of not being WCF compliant, then? So, if he can lose his job over something that is allegedly not binding on his conscience.
…and so Presbyterianism goes down on a technicality.
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Even by your own truth claims, the WCF offers itself only as a set of propositions, not truths.
Oh come on. Don’t be stupid. What do you take us for illiterate fools?
Have you even read the WCF?
The propositions of the WCF are not tentative, but binding. That is not to say they cannot be in error, but rather than assuming just that, it must be demonstrated from Scripture and by argument that it is in error for your nonsense to hold water.
Can you show us where the WCF errs? Nope. Can Mrs. W? Nope. Bryan? Come on.
Birds of a feather flock together. You’d be better off taking your dog and pony red herring troll routine some where the doofuses congregate who can’t tell the difference between an argument and an assertion.
cheers
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vd, t, except when Protestantism suits your political purposes:
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“Mrs. Webfoot, remains unrefuted, and barely rebutted.”
Just like the pope.
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And TVD, if you keep growing in maturity in your faith (now that you are taking the first steps in publicly identifying, without the fear of men (again, this thread marks a pivotal moment for you, I perceive, I’m not joking)) you’ll be able to appreciate what other traditions (like reformed protestantism ) have to offer.
I’ve been following Darryl a long time, you should read Our Debt to Roman Catholicism. All these charges against you and webfoot ar e unfounded and you can’t get past your own insecurities to see what Darryl is doing at the root. He is successful in provoking you to think and getting under your skin.
I mean it, take this thread as a positive, and build from it. Again, I was learning in 2012 how this works with the callers. I’m not being patronizing, but truly trying to help. You’ll see the good and bad in your system, the good and bad in ours. I am still able to go into Bryan Cross’ playground (posted there a few weeks ago) and come in and out with my beliefs in tact and talking in a away with him that I believe honors Christ. Of course, he doesnt let all my comments through, but thats CTC, this is Oldlife. We repeat:
Comments. Always. Open.
I have to run. I’ll be reading. Hello I must be going 😉
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TVD: Even by your own truth claims, the WCF offers itself only as a set of propositions, not truths.
You obviously have some difference in mind between “proposition” and “truth.” I read the WCF as offering up a summary of what the Bible teaches.
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*I meant “all these charges you and webfoot level against reformed protestantism are unfounded
You know we have answers for all your supposed silver bullets against our system. As I’ve said, listen to the 5 hours of Sproul.
Find them here, study other church historians, as I’ve linked to Dr. Bray, and dont stop learning about us now. You may not (in fact you most assuredly won’t) convert to our ways, but thats not what we are after.
Just like Oldlife, my comments are always open as well.
Like I said, I gotta run. Take care.
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I disagree, so I suppose there isn’t much point in continuing this conversation
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 5, 2015 at 8:41 am | Permalink
TVD: Even by your own truth claims, the WCF offers itself only as a set of propositions, not truths.
You obviously have some difference in mind between “proposition” and “truth.” I read the WCF as offering up a summary of what the Bible teaches.
That doesn’t account for its numerous revisions, nor that it does not bind the conscience.
___________
sdb
Posted May 5, 2015 at 9:24 am | Permalink
Since you claim to replace the Catholic Church, in the end your [Calvinist] religion’s truth claims have nothing to do with Catholicism. They must stand on their own,
I disagree, so I suppose there isn’t much point in continuing this conversation
Your disagreement is not a rebuttal, so you’re right, there’s no point.
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@ TVD: You’re missing one premise to make it all clear:
The WCF is a subordinate authority, subordinate to Scripture itself.
Just as a priest intends to speak truth, and (according to the Catholic) should be taken as speaking the truth, he nevertheless may err and be corrected by a higher authority. Hence, even a good Catholic may appeal to a higher authority without rejecting a good conscience.
So also may a good Protestant appeal to Scripture against the WCF. His argument may fail, but it is not out of order.
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 5, 2015 at 6:01 pm | Permalink
@ TVD: You’re missing one premise to make it all clear:
The WCF is a subordinate authority, subordinate to Scripture itself.
That formulation doesn’t mean anything. It’s a certain interpretation of the Bible, not a “summary,” and it’s authoritative enough to get someone thrown out for disagreeing with it.
And it used to say the pope is the Anti-Christ. That’s not in the Bible. This is why I correctly called it “propositional.” It’s authoritative up until the time men vote to change it.
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Actually, that formulation does mean something.
However, it is a difficult formulation for a Catholic to understand because Catholics have a hidden premise that an authority must be a person and not a text. (We get that a lot a this site.)
When one adds that premise, the formulation becomes difficult, and the conversation devolves into “interpretation” and “whose authority”, which misses the point.
You won’t, cannot understand the Protestant position if you insist that only persons can be authorities.
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TVD, even if anything you say has merit, you get voted down here at OLTS. You are just some internet stranger, and we here have a church we belong to and have committed ourselves to. So now you know what it must have felt like for M. Luther. If you could, leave us alone because we don’t have the problem here, rather, the RC church is in error in CONDEMNING THE ERRORS OF MARTIN LUTHER.
Or continue all you want, dont mind me, I just,
Class-ay, TVD! Classy.
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Here is what Charles Hodge said about the three main ways to understand what it means to adopt the WCF and Catechism as containing “the system of doctrine taught in the Sacred Scriptures.” His article shows the achilles heel of Presbyterianism.
“Every minister at his ordination is required to declare that he adopts the Westminster Confession and Catechism, as containing the system of doctrine taught in the Sacred Scriptures. There are three ways in which these words have been, and still are, interpreted. First, some understand them to mean that every proposition contained in the Confession of Faith is included in the profession made at ordination. Secondly, others say that they mean just what the words import. What is adopted is the “system of doctrine.” The system of the Reformed Churches is a known and admitted scheme of doctrine; and that scheme, nothing more or less, we profess to adopt. The third view of the subject is, that by the system of doctrine contained in the Confession is meant the essential doctrines of Christianity and nothing more.”
http://www.puritansermons.com/reformed/hodge01.htm
These are just the 3 main ways of understanding what it means to adopt the WCF as some kind of doctrinal standard. How many ways are there? Lots, it seems. Each denomination that claims some kind of adherence to the WCF would have its own way of looking at “THE system”, and then each pastor has some leeway to follow his or her conscience.
Now, many are happy Presbyterians. However, is it surprising that many also hear the call to return Home to their Mother, the Catholic Church?
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@ Webfoot:
Hodge was speaking in a time and situation in which subscription was very different (ultimately leading to the separation of PCUSA from OPC). Neither OPC nor PCA takes the third view.
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MW, it is given to the presbyteries the power to examine a man up for ordination in the church.
The way that a man may rightly hold to or declare one’s scruples is up to the presbytery to decide whether the man’s views are in accord with what is called the animus imponentis of the church. Keep at it, you’ll get it someday.
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Jeff, in Hodge’s day, things were different. The situation is much worse than what he saw then. Presbyterians were divided then on how to interpret the meaning of the WCF, and they are even more divided now.
The OPC and the PCA have more in common than either of them have with the PCUSA, but they still do not agree with one another.
Even conservative Presbyterians are still a long way from reaching the NT standard of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, not to mention maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
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However, is it surprising that
manysome also hear the call to return Home to their Mother, the Catholic Church?Sometimes ya got to korrect the propaganda.
For you it’s a game. And I suppose for Darryl, who lets you make a joke of his blog, shouting down every single comment with no wit, reason or rhyme.
Comments are open and a troll is upset he’s got competition.
It’s the price you pay, but then again you can always count on a meltdown sooner or later and the riff raff polices itself.
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So let me get this straight.
Because the OPC and PCA are not completely identical, but are sister NAPARC churches, that this is a slam dunk argument from Eph. 4. for joining with Rome and partaking of her blasphemous idolatry of the mass in which Christ is re-sacrificed every time the mass is celebrated?
Thanks. Glad we got that clear.
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Jeff, I just noticed your Puddleglum comment. You know, about my favorite Narnia character is Puddleglum. That’s not why I use Webfoot, though. I may as well tell the story. My husband and I met up in Canada. We are both from the Pacific NW where it rains a lot. So, he asked me what a webfoot like me was doing up on the dry, cold prairies of Canada. Anyway, Puddleglum is okay if you mean it in a friendly way. 🙂 In fact, I think that Puddleglum is a good role model with his common sense approach to life and faith.
Take care
Hi, AB
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 5, 2015 at 9:05 pm | Permalink
Actually, that formulation does mean something.
However, it is a difficult formulation for a Catholic to understand because Catholics have a hidden premise that an authority must be a person and not a text. (We get that a lot a this site.)
When one adds that premise, the formulation becomes difficult, and the conversation devolves into “interpretation” and “whose authority”, which misses the point.
You won’t, cannot understand the Protestant position if you insist that only persons can be authorities.
Since according to Acts and Aquinas even a pope can err, that wouldn’t be the Catholic position atall. The magisterium isn’t a person, it’s the Holy Spirit’s living guidance of the Church from Pentecost onward.
As for a “text” being an authority, “WCF” is not synonymous with the Bible. It is written by men, and revised by men, and lately, ignored by men, even “Presbyterians.”
http://juicyecumenism.com/2012/07/10/turns-out-70-of-pcusa-general-assembly-commissioners-arent-actually-presbyterian/
Now if you said the WCF [or the Belgic, whathaveyou] is the work of the Holy Spirit, fine, that’s a truth claim. End of discussion, no different than Joseph Smith and the golden plates.
But you don’t say that, nor could you believe it, since unlike the Bible, these “confessions” are subject to revision by what still amounts to mob rule.
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Mrs. Webfoot, is that the same mother who clothed and fed Richard McBrien?
What about the log in your own eye?
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@ Webfoot, TVD:
I don’t understand — no, I understand, but I don’t accept as relevant — the continued references to the PCUSA.
Given that we’ve no formal ties with them *because they abandoned the gospel*, trying to use them as a club against us makes as much sense as holding you responsible for “Christian Scientists” because they happen to have Christian in the name.
You’re committing a fallacy of irrelevance.
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vd, t, so is the Roman Catholic Church paying attention to the Canons of the Council of Trent?
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@ TVD: you’re swinging wildly at this point. Slow down and catch your breath.
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Erik, my CPA brother from another mother, with some good color commentary on TVD, calls Darryl Darryl the Grumpy, for deleting his trackbacks.
Another fun day at OL awaits. Who’s next?
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Tom,
It’s difficult to pin down where you’re coming from or if this is just a game for you, but you said,
On the contrary, according to Bryan Cross,
In one sense the Magisterium is not a singular person, but the Magisterium is led by one man, the Pope, who speaks *for* or ratifies the speech *of* the Magisterium.
Finally, your comments presuppose that if an authority is not infallible then it is not an authority. You’ll need to make an exegetical and philosophical argument for that. Good luck trying to explain the philosophical in light of the absence of such structures in God’s operation in the OT.
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Jeff,
By that logic most of what Mr. Hart posts on his blog is irrelevant as it’s slagging off those in denominations and movements not connected with the OPC. (One could argue it’s all irrelevant, but for different reasons.)
Why does he attack students in Canada who resist being forced to compromise their faith by atheist teachers; why does he attack teachers who stand up for their faith in the classroom? Are any of these people OPC members? I’m inclined to say “no”- and yet he goes out of his way to mock them.
One could also, conversely, ask why he attacks hymn-singers when the OPC is a hymn-singing denomination.
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One could also ask how it is a historian (of Protestantism and Calvinism no less) thinks the Savoy Declaration was produced in “Savoy in England”?
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Alexander, so good to hear from you? Where HAVE you been?
Please help me out. Is not London in England?
“The Savoy Declaration was a declaration and statement of faith prepared in 1658 by a conference of English Congregationalists who met at Savoy Palace, London”
I freely admit, as a product of inferior American schools, secularized by the courts and run by atheists, to being geographically challenged.
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Jeff Cage:
Given that we’ve no formal ties with them *because they abandoned the gospel*, trying to use them as a club against us makes as much sense as holding you responsible for “Christian Scientists” because they happen to have Christian in the name.>>>>>
The WCF was ineffective in keeping the largest Presbyterian group in the US from apostasy. Referring to them goes to the point. At the end of the day, making an accommodation for a pastor’s conscience pulls the plug on the WCF and it goes down the drain and Presbyterianism along with it.
In the case of Christian Science, they never were orthodox.
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Mrs. Webfoot, right back at you. How has the wonder-working powers of the magisterium and papal infallibility prevented most of the Roman Catholic faithful in the U.S. from living in mortal sin?
You really do need to address that before you keep throwing stones from your glass house.
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Oh, and hi to you too, Mrs. Webfoot.
You are welcome to learn all about Animus Imponentis:
http://adbuckingham.com/animus-imponentis/
You’ve got a good head on your shoulders. Comment at my blog anytime, comments always open.
Grace and peace.
Next.
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Webfoot: The WCF was ineffective in keeping the largest Presbyterian group in the US from apostasy.
I agree.
Webfoot: Referring to them goes to the point. At the end of the day, making an accommodation for a pastor’s conscience pulls the plug on the WCF and it goes down the drain and Presbyterianism along with it.
I don’t agree, on several points. I think you’re drawing the wrong lesson here.
Take a look at the situation in the Catholic church. A billion members, yet the breadth of defection from church teaching among the teachers in the Catholic church — priests, professors at Catholic universities, even bishops — rivals the PCUSA, and is certainly worse than either the PCA or OPC.
Despite TVD’s protestations, having a magisterium cannot prevent schism.
There’s a simple and good reason for that. The church has authority but not the physical power of coercion. Likewise the church, Scripture — any of those lack temporal power of enforcement.
And there’s our real lesson. The reason that the PCUSA has gotten to this sorry state is not that it didn’t have a proper authority (it did: The Bible). It was rather that it had no will and ability to enforce that authority. If you’ve not already, research the trial of Charles Briggs and its aftermath.
The Catholic church is in the same state. In theory, you have a nice tidy magisterium with clear lines of authority. In practice, church politics prevent enforcement, the serious kind of enforcement that leads to house-cleaning, from actually happening. You cannot point to a time in the history of the RCC when there was actual unity in doctrine amongst all bishops, let alone priests, let alone members.
So … what then?
The “what then” comes down to Ephesians 4, to which you alluded. Unity in doctrine will ultimately be achieved as a work of the Spirit, and not as a work of the magisterium. Whether on this side of the eschaton or the other, I don’t know.
What I do know is that pointing to a human being and saying, “All will be right when HE is acknowledged as head” is misguided. One church, one Lord, one baptism: Jesus alone is head of His church.
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 6, 2015 at 3:38 pm | Permalink
Webfoot: The WCF was ineffective in keeping the largest Presbyterian group in the US from apostasy.
I agree.
Webfoot: Referring to them goes to the point. At the end of the day, making an accommodation for a pastor’s conscience pulls the plug on the WCF and it goes down the drain and Presbyterianism along with it.
I don’t agree, on several points. I think you’re drawing the wrong lesson here.
Take a look at the situation in the Catholic church. A billion members, yet the breadth of defection from church teaching among the teachers in the Catholic church — priests, professors at Catholic universities, even bishops — rivals the PCUSA, and is certainly worse than either the PCA or OPC.
Despite TVD’s protestations, having a magisterium cannot prevent schism.
Unfactual. 99% of the schisms in the past 500 years have taken place under the Reformation side. It’s a structural thing when every man is his own pope.
___________________
D. G. Hart
Posted May 6, 2015 at 11:19 am | Permalink
Mrs. Webfoot, right back at you. How has the wonder-working powers of the magisterium and papal infallibility prevented most of the Roman Catholic faithful in the U.S. from living in mortal sin?
.
Not relevant under the Arminian concept of free will. God doesn’t force anyone to obey.
The real question is how under the Reformed doctrine of the “Elect” how so many of you are nasty Pharisees. Not feeling the love of Jesus here.
____________________
Brandon Addison
Posted May 6, 2015 at 10:27 am | Permalink
Tom,
you said,
“The magisterium isn’t a person, it’s the Holy Spirit’s living guidance of the Church from Pentecost onward.”
On the contrary, according to Bryan Cross,
“A person can do what a book cannot; a person can correct global misunderstandings and answer comprehensive interpretive questions. A book by its very nature has a limited intrinsic potency for interpretive self-clarification; a person, on the other hand, by his very nature has, in principle, an unlimited intrinsic potency with respect to interpretive self-clarification. This unlimited potency of persons with respect to interpretive self-clarification ensures that the hermeneutical spiral may reach its goal; we can continue to ask clarification questions, be heard, and receive answers to those very questions, until the questions are answered…So likewise an enduring Magisterium made up of persons remains perpetually capable of clarifying and explaining any of its previous statements.”
In one sense the Magisterium is not a singular person, but the Magisterium is led by one man, the Pope, who speaks *for* or ratifies the speech *of* the Magisterium.
Not very interested in debating excerpts of things Bryan Cross wrote. The magisterium isn’t a person. The Holy Spirit of course works through human beings. The Bible itself was penned by human beings. Your argument is based on a faulty premise.
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TVD continues his vision quest, can someone hand him some peyote or something? Tell him to go visit shaman Peter Leithart’s tent, they can do a chant together. Here we go:
TVD, catch up with us, and we can all go golf together. Until then, stay in lurker’s corner, and let the big wigs handle theology. Read:
Peace to you on your journey, TVD.
Next.
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vd, t, love me in an Arminian way.
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Webfoot, PS, here’s a money quote from the AI lectures, Dr. Strange is one of the brightest minds we have in our camp, IMHO. Peace to you on your journey (emphasis mine):
TVD says: Unfactual. 99% of the schisms in the past 500 years have taken place under the Reformation side.”
Tell us about the other 1% please.
Dr. Hart asks: “… How has the wonder-working powers of the magisterium and papal infallibility prevented most of the Roman Catholic faithful in the U.S. from living in mortal sin? “
I would rephrase by asking what is preventing their excommunication? After somebody invokes the “defacto anathema” (really? Come on now) please tell us how that comports with the 5th Chapter of the apostle’s 1st epistle to the Corinthians.
No hate here Tom. I promise. Your church’s grand claims are what is killin her though. You cannot find any reformed protestant equivalent to papal/magisterial authority and therefore any argument you bring along those lines is an automatic straw man. We are not vulnerable to the same attacks because we do make the same claims.
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“DON’T make. Sorry.
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Greg The Terrible
Posted May 6, 2015 at 5:35 pm | Permalink
TVD says: Unfactual. 99% of the schisms in the past 500 years have taken place under the Reformation side.”
Tell us about the other 1% please.
Nice try, but arguing the exception against the rule is unhelpful, Mr. Turrible. Address the 99 first, for that is the argument.
No hate here Tom. I promise…You cannot find any reformed protestant equivalent to papal/magisterial authority and therefore any argument you bring along those lines is an automatic straw man.
Unfactual. You do put people on ecclesastical trial for disputing the “confessions,” no? Therefore there is magisterium even as you deny its existence!
As for the Catholic argument, its “grand claim” of the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the magisterium is precisely why there aren’t 100s or 1000s of denominations as there are in the theological Babel that is “Protestantism.” It is why it has survived intact while there is scarcely a sect of Protestantism has not splintered in dozens of subsects.
No straw man, atall. And thanks for the non-hate. Exemplary!
______________
D. G. Hart
Posted May 6, 2015 at 4:41 pm | Permalink
vd, t, love me in an Arminian way.
But I do, mon cheri, and all your Crabby for Christ henchpersons too. It’s the warrior children whose agape needs work. I’m hardly the first person to notice.
http://www.frame-poythress.org/machens-warrior-children/
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TVD says: “Nice try, but arguing the exception against the rule is unhelpful, Mr. Turrible. Address the 99 first, for that is the argument.”
Look friend. ANY exceptions to your kind of rule are fatal. Not so with us.
Unfactual. You do put people on ecclesastical trial for disputing the “confessions,” no? Therefore there is magisterium even as you deny its existence!
That is not the same as casting them to the demons and the lake of fire like the church of Trent did until Vat. II when Rome officially castrated herself. Yes, in this case SHE CAN do that. I want the church of Trent back. I can actually respect that. Today’s RCC is a yapping little bark and NO bit at all.
TVD says: “As for the Catholic argument, its “grand claim” of the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the magisterium is precisely why there aren’t 100s or 1000s of denominations as there are in the theological Babel that is “Protestantism.” It is why it has survived intact while there is scarcely a sect of Protestantism has not splintered in dozens of subsets.”
INTACT HE SAYS LOL!!!! 😀
Is that what you call this? The existence of some dusty dogma written somewhere says absolutely nothing about the unity in your ranks Tom. Your church is the very definition of theological anarchy. Every man (and ESPECIALLY women) does whatever is right in their own eyes, middle finger straight at the Vatican. There is NO way you don’t see this.
There is FAAAAAAR more unity among conservative protestants, even those on the other end of the theological landscape from each other than there is in any diocese in the United States. i KNOW what I am talkin about.
Please answer my question about the “defacto anathema”. Do you know what that is?
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How bout canon law and canon lawyers? NOT to be confused with the magesterium, but allegedly vital to informing the church how to apply canon law in pastoral practice especially? Name for me 2 times you’ve ever seen that function ANYwhere please. Without looking it up and even that may be tough.
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Greg,
TVD loves us and believes we are part of Christ’s church:
He comes here with a message for reformed Christians, that we need to be more loving. It’s hard to argue with that.
Now he should take back that statement about hoping to be in Hell. I’m not sure why TVD said that back in the day, and whether he still holds it.
If I were you, since he is talking to you, try to find out if he goes to church, and if he does not, encourage him to. That is, afterall, the point of my Golf and Theology post, you can click on my name if you or anyone wants to read it again.
Mortification of Spin also had a good podcast today stressing the importance of having a high view of the church.
Grace and peace.
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vd, t, what next, the OPC and Terry Gray?
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Greg:
The existence of some dusty dogma written somewhere ….>>>>
You mean the Trinity and the Incarnation? How about the deity of Christ? The canon of Scripture that Jesus, the Apostles, and the early Church used? The Virgin Birth of Christ? Christ’s death for the sins of the world? Christ’s bodily resurrection? The Real Presence in the Eucharist? How about the Summa?
Move it up to more contemporary setting. Humanae vitae? Then there are concepts almost lost among Protestants, even conservative ones, like truth, beauty, and goodness.
What about the Beatitudes and forgiving one’s enemies with no strings attached? …and love for all mankind.
What dusty dogmas are you talking about?
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Greg The Terrible
Posted May 6, 2015 at 6:53 pm | Permalink
TVD says: “Nice try, but arguing the exception against the rule is unhelpful, Mr. Turrible. Address the 99 first, for that is the argument.”
Look friend. ANY exceptions to your kind of rule are fatal. Not so with us.
Yes, that’s the way you stack the deck, a double standard. But as long as churches are full of men, there will be imperfections. As long as y’all insist on ignoring Catholicism’s explicit acknowledgement of that*, ’tis you who are arguing against a straw man.
TVD says: “As for the Catholic argument, its “grand claim” of the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the magisterium is precisely why there aren’t 100s or 1000s of denominations as there are in the theological Babel that is “Protestantism.” It is why it has survived intact while there is scarcely a sect of Protestantism has not splintered in dozens of subsets.”
That’s true.
INTACT HE SAYS LOL!!!! 😀
Capital letters and “LOL” is not principled discussion, O Warrior Child. Indeed, it is an admission of incompetence. And yes, by any visible metric, the Catholic Church is intact, for 1500 years even if the Constantine argument is stipulated [which it is not], and 2000 by its own reckoning.
By contrast, a miniscule church founded in the 1930s cannot even successfully lay claim to Presbyterianism, let alone Christianity itself.
This is the problem when every man is his own pope. Heresy and schism are structural inevitabilities.
____________________
*”The theologian Juan Cardinal De Torquemada O.P. († 1468) expressly related that Bible passage to the duty to resist a wayward pontiff.”
&c.
http://romancatholicism.org/duty-resist.html
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TVD, no, Greg is not of us. He is out to change us, the warrior children, just like you and webfoot are. Do keep at it, we’re pretty stubborn and set in our ways. You might be at this whole thing for quite a while, buckle up, in other words.
By the way, I’m not one to talk, but do try to limit your comments to three per day, per post, please. We can only take so much of the love your bring into our comment boxes 😉
Now.
Who
is
next?
Yo.
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That’s not how wiki describes us:
And that bolded sentence explains why you, Greg, and so many others can’t get enough of this website.
And also explains PCA pastor Dr. Ligon Duncan’s comment at our last GA:
TVD: Love the OPC, yo.
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@ TVD: I’m not impressed by the no-schism argument. To maintain a formal unity while tolerating a host of divergent opinions might technically be “lack of schism”, but it is also “lack of discipline.”
If your church actually showed the unity of the Sprit in the bond of peace, then that would be something.
—
A man and a woman married one another, but quickly grew to dislike each other. Being of the mind that divorce was an unforgiveable sin, they partitioned off the house, and each kept to his or her own half.
On their tombstones was written, “At least we didn’t divorce.”
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 6, 2015 at 9:47 pm | Permalink
@ TVD: I’m not impressed by the no-schism argument. To maintain a formal unity while tolerating a host of divergent opinions might technically be “lack of schism”, but it is also “lack of discipline.”
If your church actually showed the unity of the Sprit in the bond of peace, then that would be something.
—
God doesn’t even give us definitive proof of His existence, and you demand that the Catholic Church show a theological unity unknown in human history–one certainly not shown in the early church which you hold as your standard of the “true” church!
Gnosticism
Donatism
Manichaeism
Monophysitism
Arianism
&c.
&c.
And of course, you have no answer atall for the failure of the Reformation to ‘correct’ the errors of the Church. Rather than reform, it spawned heresies and schisms exponentially, far beyond the imaginations of Luther and Melanchthon, Calvin and Beza: Not one catholic church, but uncounted 1000s of ’em.
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Blah blah blah
Next
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TVD says: “God doesn’t even give us definitive proof of His existence,”
See this Jeff? How is this really any different than what sdb and Sean were saying in the other thread. No need to answer here. I’m just pointing it out.
You marriage analogy was brilliant btw.
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TVD: God doesn’t even give us definitive proof of His existence, and you demand that the Catholic Church show a theological unity unknown in human history
I do, because the Catholic church makes a claim unknown in the pages of the Bible: that a man can be the head of Christ’s church. You want to be in charge, you own the broken pottery.
TVD: one certainly not shown in the early church which you hold as your standard of the “true” church!
Do I? Cite, please.
TVD: And of course, you have no answer atall for the failure of the Reformation to ‘correct’ the errors of the Church.
Already asked and answered.
You’re swinging wildly again.
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 7, 2015 at 12:09 am | Permalink
TVD: God doesn’t even give us definitive proof of His existence, and you demand that the Catholic Church show a theological unity unknown in human history
I do, because the Catholic church makes a claim unknown in the pages of the Bible: that a man can be the head of Christ’s church. You want to be in charge, you own the broken pottery.
You didn’t read the link. Aquinas points out that Peter was wrong and Paul corrected him. You and Darryl’s other surrogates keep saying the same thing over and over but that doesn’t make it true.
Your religion seems to depend on it, so I suppose I don’t blame you.
TVD: one certainly not shown in the early church which you hold as your standard of the “true” church!
Do I? Cite, please.
Then what is the “true” church? As far as I know, according to the Reformation, the ‘true” church stopped being true circa Constantine. I don’t mind holding up your end of the conversation, but you gotta help me out when I do.
“Cite, please” is unhelpful. If I stated your position unfairly, just clarify.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 6, 2015 at 7:24 pm | Permalink
vd, t, what next, the OPC and Terry Gray?
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/humans-opc.htm
Oh my, Butch, if your liberal pals who pat you on the head for savaging the Religious Right ever knew that your church put a scientist on trial over evolution in the 21st century, they’d laugh you out of public life.
I’m surprised you brought it up in an attempt to embarrass me. The embarrassment is not mine.
Did you agree with what they did to Dr. Terry Gray? If not, did you stand up for him?
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@tvd article 34 of the Belgic conf and chapter 25 of the westminster conf both point out the church is always a mix of truth and error but never ceased (or will cease) to exist.
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vd, t, I sure do hope that all the conservatives with whom you associate don’t find out that your church agrees with the OPC about Terry Gray:
Do you agree with your universal bishop? Or are you just another Protestant who can’t be honest about his disloyalty to the pope?
Terry Gray held this:
Pius XII says you don’t have liberty to affirm “the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter.”
Your objection is what?
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How is luther et al. leaving and purportedly spawning 30,000 micro denominations (mostly with orthodox Christology and in communion with one another) worse than the RCC that is spawning millions of nanodenominations today?
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 7, 2015 at 6:58 am | Permalink
vd, t, I sure do hope that all the conservatives with whom you associate don’t find out that your church agrees with the OPC about Terry Gray:
Butch, your liberal pals would laugh you out of the room if they knew your church put a scientist on trial over evolution in the 21st century. Or did you get Terry’s back over this travesty?
Gray: In other words, since I did not adopt a position of “immediate” creation of the body of Adam from literal dust of the ground (ordinary dirt), my view is contrary to Genesis 2:7 and the Larger Catechism Question 17.
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Complete poppycock and you know it.
There are competing claims between atheistic evolution (naturalism) and theism.
http://www.amazon.com/Where-Conflict-Really-Lies-Naturalism/dp/0199812098
My liberal friends sense the tesniom between science and theism. Of course, there is logical concord, but the first/last adam discussion requires a historical Adam.
You’re just hoping T.Gray is lurking and chimes in, admit it.
Keep it up, young padawan. You’ll get it someday. One more comment forthcoming.
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Thank my better half for provoking this response from galactic HQ (read OPC Headquarters)(I’ve been doing this for years, TVD will be asking the same questions in 10 years(thanks DGH for the RCC references on science(what is TVD doing up so early?)))(who’s next?)
Terry, like all of us out here, has a blog:
Dr. Gray is the one guy I can discuss my astrobiology interests with out here, I always enjoy when he shows up. I need to post this to my blog:
http://www%5Bdot%5Dpbs%5Bdot%5Dorg/wgbh/nova/space/alien-planets-revealed.html
Erik Charter chimes in well (Hi EC!)
http://literatecomments%5Bdot%5Dcom/2015/05/07/d-g-hart-throws-terry-gray-back-at-catholic-apologist-tom-van-dyke/
http://literatecomments%5Bdot%5Dcom/2015/05/07/the-shift-from-annoying-gadfly-to-full-blown-annoying-catholic-apologist-aint-no-picnic/
There we go, the convos are preserved, DG, you can proceed to delete EC’s trackbacks 😎
Next.
[3]
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vd, t, it wasn’t the 21st century but the same one when your pope declared that Adam did not descend from pre-existing creatures. Imagine how funny your pals think it is that you confuse 1996 with this century. Flail away but watch out not to entangle the mullet.
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I’m still waiting for an explanation from Tom as to why, if Rome is the true church with the superior way, he doesn’t go to mass. Is it better than the Presbyterians but not good enough for him? Hubris, anyone?
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The title of this post is Which Call? In it, D.G. Hart shows that there are different competing factions within the Catholic Church, especially here in the US. Progressives have taken over the leadership of many Catholic institutions. Where just 50 years ago conservative Catholics controlled schools like Notre Dame, now the left is in power.
What is the Church going to do about it? What are they doing about it? What would Protestants do about a similar takeover by the left in their institutions?
The OPC has given us an answer in part as to what Protestants do about such internal divisions. In many ways, I admire the work of J. Gresham Machen. He stood for the truth of the Gospel while much of Presbyterianism was apostatizing. All of us who grew up in fundamentalist kinds of churches during the last half of the 20th Century were influenced by him, even if we didn’t know his name.
At one point in my life I memorized his little beginning Greek grammar. It was the standard text for all students of NT Greek at one time. I loved that little book, and still have my copy of it.
He stood strong for truth in a difficult time. So, I never forget a favor. I never forget someone who has helped me along the way, even though I did not know him personally.
However, the methodology of Protestantism is flawed it seems to me. It is impossible to defend Biblically the divisiveness of Protestantism. The only thing like it is the division of the tribes of Israel, and that was because of God’s judgment on Israel.
So, how can the divisions within Protestantism be seen as anything but God’s judgment? I get the anti-Catholicism of Protestantism. I no longer agree with it, but I get it. It is part of what Protestants of all kinds do.
It is the infighting and constant attacks against other Protestant groups that I don’t get. It is not just the attacks and infighting, since as you know, there are similar things within Catholicism.
My concern has to do with what Protestants do in relation to the infighting that I see as problematic. Like it or not, it boils down to people choosing sides and going off with one leader, or a group of leaders to form a new church. The leadership of that new local church becomes the teaching authority for that church. People quote him, or her. They follow that person, until that person fails and people head off to other churches, or just stay home and watch TV church.
The method of growth for Protestants is division. Chaos reigns. In a way that is part of the free market of ideas, even of religious ideas. Yes, in spite of the chaos, there are people who come to Christ somehow, proving that salvation is indeed of the Lord.
Doesn’t Jesus call us to a different way of doing things, though? Doesn’t Jesus’ High Priestly prayer in John 17 give a different picture of what His Church is supposed to be like? Then there is Ephesians 4 and other NT texts.
You may disagree, but Catholicism in her dogmas and ideals is much more in line with what Jesus calls us to. Does she live up to them? No. Does she need to give them up? No. One Holy Apostolic Church, the body of Christ, is still the goal. To be like Christ. Is Christ divided?
Protestantism values division. It is considered to be an honorable thing for a group of Christians to separate from other groups of Christians in order to protect doctrinal purity. I just don’t agree with that methodology anymore. Not sure that multiplication by division is all that Christlike.
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Make that One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. 🙂
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I stopped reading there.
<blockquote cite=""<For there must be factions among you in order tthat those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 cor11:19
Ecumenicity is important, but purity more so.
See our committee for further info on our ecumenical efforts.
http://opc.org/icr.html
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Mrs. Webfoot,
So, how can the divisions within Protestantism be seen as anything but God’s judgment?
Let’s take a situation like the OPC’s break from the northern Presbyterian church (I’m not OPC, BTW). Maybe that is God’s judgment—on the northern Presbyterian church of the day.
I’m PCA. The PCA split from the southern church at a different time. Perhaps that judgment is against the southern Pres. church.
As to why the PCA and OPC haven’t merged into one ecclesiastical structure, maybe that’s judgment, I don’t know. Maybe its more a consequence of adiaphora cultural differences. The PCA and OPC have full fraternal relations. They share a common confession. Is having the same home office THAT important? Why is one big tent church that includes as full communing members Mother Teresa and Nancy Pelosi truer to Jesus’ call for unity than two separate structures where believers in each believe more or less the same things? Maybe it’s a sin for the two churches not to be together. Why isn’t it a sin to embrace people who love abortion and people who hate it?
And why is it never God’s judgment on Rome that the East broke away? Why isn’t the Reformation God’s judgment on the papacy? Because Rome says so? That seems to be the only answer possible from Rome’s perspective.
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Robert,
Good points.
I like how DGH says Christ did not necessarily mean institutional unity in John 17, and we don’t see that in the Bible anyway. The OPC and PCA don’t need to merge, in other words, although we may. Maybe once TKNY is no longer a pastor 😉
Webfoot is just the latest to claim understanding of the reformed view, only to show she has more learning to do.
It’s ok. We are here to serve, comments open.
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If you click that Heidelcast, start around the 9:00 time stamp, DGH:
What more needs to be said?
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TVD says: “yes, by any visible metric, the Catholic Church is intact, for 1500 years…”
See, y’all do the same thing with your church that you do with the scriptures. You concoct and contrive utterly forced and untenable non reality and sling it at people as if it were true because that’s what you want to be true. Somebody points out that your church’s theology is wholly incompatible;e with the Christian scriptures and the answer is: “Well you’re not authorized to interpret it, so it says whatever we say it does” (in essence).
Likewise, when somebody pushes your face into the fact that the pew dwellers in your church yawn dismissively and couldn’t give one flyin fart what your magesterium or pope or canon law and canon lawyers say about ANY freakin thing whatsoever, and the answer is: “by any visible metric, the Catholic Church is intact”. Jeff’s marriage analogy is right on. When someone is willing to believe that it is not raining outside no matter how much water is falling out of the sky, how is a dialog even possible?
TVD says: “This is the problem when every man is his own pope. Heresy and schism are structural inevitabilities.”
In your church when every man is his own pope (and woman her own popette) it has no effect on anything whatsoever. Everything goes on the same and folks just smile and say “by any visible metric, the Catholic Church is intact”. I ask again. Tell us about the defacto anathema and it’s relation to 1 Cor. 5 please. That’s how this everybody is in flagrant unrepentant mortal sin, but nobody notices thing has been explained to me.Tell the folks her about the “defacto anathema”. Come on they’ll get a real charge outta hearin you say it. You’re not ashamed of your churches teaching are you?
Mrs. Webfoot. You’re a nice lady and I’d hoped to continue with you at Erik’s place before he… oh…never mind. You missed my point though. Your church has mountains of moral dogma that serves no more practical purpose than to occupy shelf and disk space. It is brought to bear on Nobody. EVER.
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Mrs. Webfoot, the game is rigged as it is with almost all converts. You only see what’s bad on our side. You fled it. You need to justify yourself.
But you may be so caught up in justifying your flight that you refuse to see the divisiveness of the contemporary Roman Catholic church. From disputes over the upcoming green encyclical and what the German bishops have just determined about employees of the church, to Archbp Finn in Kansas City still ordaining priests, there is plenty of divine judgment on Rome but you don’t see it that way. Why? Because you deny certain realities about your church. Isn’t honesty a mark of being a Christian?
As for divisiveness, how unifying was it for you to leave your Protestant church? But do I call your departure from Protestantism an instance of God’s judgment? Do I even presume to know what God intends by certain developments in history?
Bottom line: it’s hard to take you seriously when you, unlike folks such as Boniface at Unam Sanctum or Ross Douthat or Michael Sean Winters, don’t ever lament the deficiencies in your own communion. Your church claimed to be the perfect society once upon a time. Now it’s just like — oh well, we’re all imperfect. God isn’t finished with me yet. Gee golly whiz.
Have a brain. Have a brain on reality.
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AB, I accept the idea of unity as not necessarily being organizational unity. In fact, The Catholic Church also accepts that all who belong to Christ are part of the Church no matter what denomination as long as it practices baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Of course, our Mother wants us to come Home. Protestants want us to leave our Mother.
——————————
Greg, I am nice. 🙂 I disagree that the Church’s dogma has never served any practical purpose. It’s not magic. A person has to work at holiness. Besides, you didn’t just say that Mother Teresa was not a godly woman, did you?
——————————-
Jeff, your marriage analogy fails. God hates divorce. There are always other options besides living as enemies under the same roof. Children hate divorce as well.
——————————
Robert, your comment to Tom makes no sense. So, because Tom does not attend Mass, the Catholic Church is what?
I would not disagree with you that all divisions in the Church are a kind of judgment. Protestants continue to heap judgment on themselves by the constant infighting and divisions. For the sake of argument, I will say that the unity does not have to be organizational. Fine. It’s not even there in spirit or Spirit between most Protestant groups.
There are some exceptions. Today I will go to an Assemblies of God Church for an interdenominational prayer service. Not sure if other Catholics will go or not. However, my Church does not prohibit me from going.
How many members of the OPC or even PCA will be there or in other events of the kind? I don’t know. Would you go, Robert, and pray with Pentecostals even if there is no organizational entanglement beyond a prayer service?
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No, webfoot, that’s not the position of protestants (the majority? some? maybe, but that’s not a position).
I don’t hold that position. I would prefer you stay and be an agent of reform for your church, so keep learning from us, go back, and teach them about what you learn of us here. We’re not all that bad, right?
Remember, this is primarily about the website “called to communion.” Now, the main blogger Bryan Cross has changed his tune (maybe to sync up with his pope) that his site is not about converting protestants. But make no mistake – he is a propoganda machine, and will stop and nothing to promote his version of christianity. Therefore, Darryl has no choice but to post here and provide the correcting view. It’s been going on a while, CTC vs. OLTS. Buckle your seatbelt, we’ve got a long way to go.
Erik, weighs in does well as usual.
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Mrs. Webfoot,
Robert, your comment to Tom makes no sense. So, because Tom does not attend Mass, the Catholic Church is what?
You may not know Tom’s history. Tom is a RC who doesn’t go to mass and keeps on extolling the superiority of the Roman Church. My comment is more along the lines as to how convincing his argument for the RC church is if even he doesn’t buy it because you aren’t going to find him there on Sunday. Whether or not Rome is true is a separate issue. That’s all.
I would not disagree with you that all divisions in the Church are a kind of judgment. Protestants continue to heap judgment on themselves by the constant infighting and divisions. For the sake of argument, I will say that the unity does not have to be organizational. Fine. It’s not even there in spirit or Spirit between most Protestant groups.
Ah, but here is where I disagree. I’ve spent my whole life in the Protestant church. For the most part and for better or worse, one can move rather easily from being a Baptist to a Presbyterian to a Lutheran. I could go have communion at most Protestant churches. Canon law says I shouldn’t be allowed to the Eucharist. It’s not ever applied, but it’s there.
In my own hometown, there are various lay renewal movements where Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. come together for weekend retreats. They’re actually modeled on the RC Cursillo movement. I would have some reservations about those retreats today, not because of the retreats themselves but because of the somewhat weak theology that they can inadvertently support. Regardless, they’re evidence of a strong desire on the part of Protestants to be one in the Spirit.
There are some exceptions. Today I will go to an Assemblies of God Church for an interdenominational prayer service. Not sure if other Catholics will go or not. However, my Church does not prohibit me from going.
The issue is whether Rome is being true to herself historically in allowing this. Prior to V2, we were anathema and not true churches. On paper, we’re still not true churches, so why is Rome allowing interdenominational prayer. It gets even worse when Pope JPII kisses Qur’ans and Francis prays alongside Muslims as if we all worship the same God.
How many members of the OPC or even PCA will be there or in other events of the kind? I don’t know.
I don’t either. I do know that in my presbytery, people would be willing to go to an interdenominational Protestant prayer service.
Would you go, Robert, and pray with Pentecostals even if there is no organizational entanglement beyond a prayer service?
Personally, yes, unless they were Jesus-only Pentecostals.
I appreciate much of your sentiments in what you wrote about unity, Mrs. Webfoot, but you do know that for Rome there is no unity without organizational unity, right?
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Mrs. Webfoot: Jeff, your marriage analogy fails. God hates divorce. There are always other options besides living as enemies under the same roof. Children hate divorce as well.
You missed the point of the analogy. Of course God hates divorce, and of course there are other options — which should be pursued.
In the analogy, the couple pursues none of those options, yet is still proud of their formal lack of divorce.
In our case: Schism is bad, and there are other options. So we can ding the Protestants for schisming. Done. My wrist is slapped.
But now, why are Catholics so proud of their formal lack of schism, when they have no real unity?
Why are you (and TVD especially) boastful that the magisterium prevents schism, when having a magisterium does nothing about the root sin behind schism, which is defection from the truth?
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This is my Catholic guy. Plenty of course to disagree with here, but you guys simply must watch this all the way through. I respect this man.
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Greg,
You seriously respect a man with that haircut?
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Sounds like PromiseKeepers or just about any other parachurch evangelical ministry that more or less accepts all comers. If they serve communion will you partake? The table is open to all who profess Christ and are a baptized member of a church.
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Speaking of triumphalist Catholic converts… Here is a great interview with Damon Linker (a former editor of FirstThings).
The whole interview is worth reading…
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Erik says:
Greg,
You seriously respect a man with that haircut?
What am I gonna do with you Erik?
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 7, 2015 at 10:35 am | Permalink
vd, t, it wasn’t the 21st century but the same one when your pope declared that Adam did not descend from pre-existing creatures. Imagine how funny your pals think it is that you confuse 1996 with this century. Flail away but watch out not to entangle the mullet.
So I take it you stood by and watch the lynching of Terry Gray over evolution, then. Nice.
And you seem to be the one with the problem telling this century form the last, Butch.
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Greg The Terrible
Posted May 7, 2015 at 1:47 pm | Permalink
TVD says: “yes, by any visible metric, the Catholic Church is intact, for 1500 years…”
See, y’all do the same thing with your church that you do with the scriptures. You concoct and contrive utterly forced and untenable non reality and sling it at people as if it were true because that’s what you want to be true. Somebody points out that your church’s theology is wholly incompatible;e with the Christian scriptures and the answer is: “Well you’re not authorized to interpret it, so it says whatever we say it does” (in essence).
Likewise, when somebody pushes your face into the fact that the pew dwellers in your church yawn dismissively and couldn’t give one flyin fart what your magesterium or pope or canon law and canon lawyers say about ANY freakin thing whatsoever, and the answer is: “by any visible metric, the Catholic Church is intact”. Jeff’s marriage analogy is right on. When someone is willing to believe that it is not raining outside no matter how much water is falling out of the sky, how is a dialog even possible?
TVD says: “This is the problem when every man is his own pope. Heresy and schism are structural inevitabilities.”
In your church when every man is his own pope (and woman her own popette) it has no effect on anything whatsoever.
Yes, the Catholic Church is intact, unlike Presbyterianism, which is a bloody mess. And yes, it and the existence of 1000s of Protestant sects is directly attributable to every man being his own pope.
Unless you have an alternate explanation for the mess.
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Alt explanation? Freedom of religion + leisure time+multiculturalism+entrepreneurialism explains why sects who move here divide. RC isn’t intact…millions have left to form own denomination of “spiritual but not religious”.
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sdb
Posted May 7, 2015 at 8:42 pm | Permalink
Alt explanation? Freedom of religion + leisure time+multiculturalism+entrepreneurialism explains why sects who move here divide. RC isn’t intact…millions have left to form own denomination of “spiritual but not religious”.
That’s not a denomination. Nice try, though. Basically Christianity comes down to the Catholics and the not-Catholics, the latter being a theological Babel.
We return to the original contention:
For instance, the folks at Notre Dame recognize diversity in the church. Bryan and the Jasons only see unity as the “real” condition of their communion.
Quite right. “Diversity” is for Protestants, and Lord, are they.
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sdb, they are no longer Catholic or Christian. The ones you are talking about left Christianity. The Church is still Christian, and that is what bothered them.
How do Protestants divide? They form factions around one teacher or a group of teachers or a non-essential doctrine and split with their leader who becomes their new spokesperson. Anyone who has been in Evangelicalism and or Protestantism for very long has seen this happen numerous times. Sometimes splits happen over important issues, but most of the time not.
Tom is right. The Catholic Church is still Catholic. The Pope is still Catholic. She is quite intact if you care to take a closer look at what she is really saying.
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M Web., you’re almost as obtuse as vd, t. Don’t answer a criticism. Just stay on anti-Protestant message. Beware, though. Vd, t is not exactly your best kind of fellow believer. He rarely goes to Mass, likes David Barton, and thinks the American founding was Calvinist. You’re in for a ride with the vd.
And here is how Roman Catholics divide — they ignore the ones their supposed to obey:
Please don’t fall into the trap that Boniface spots and become one of THOSE Roman Catholics:
Ultimately, the neo-Cath strategy is to insist loudly that certain things can never be changed so long as the current Pontiff does not want to change them; then, when the “policy” changes with another pontiff, suggest just as loudly that such matters were never immune from change to begin with.
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vd, t, this is fun. You keep swinging even while your trunks are on the floor and your junk is exposed.
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Butch, every one of your smirky ad homs is an admission of defeat.
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https://oldlife.org/2014/10/dont-stop-believin/comment-page-1/#comments
Heh. Ibid.
Bryan Cross
Posted October 23, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink
Darryl,
I for one cannot understand how Roman Catholicism’s defenders (whether liberal or conservative) can continue to claim superiority.
That’s because, apparently, your only or primary measure of “superiority” is the percentage of members of an institution who conform fully to an institution’s formal teaching. Who that institution was founded by, or whether that institution is in schism from the institution founded by Christ, are not even on your conceptual radar as measurements of its “superiority.” Throughout Church history, rigorists (e.g. Tertullian-as-Montanist, Donatists, etc.) have measured the Church as you do. If you want at least to *understand* (which you say you presently cannot do) the Catholic position, even while disagreeing with it, you first have to learn how Catholics understand the marks of the Church, which is very different from the way Protestants such as yourself conceive of the marks of the Church.
In the peace of Christ,
– Bryan
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Dr. Hart says: “Ultimately, the neo-Cath strategy is to insist loudly that certain things can never be changed so long as the current Pontiff does not want to change them; then, when the “policy” changes with another pontiff, suggest just as loudly that such matters were never immune from change to begin with.
THIS is exactly right. Another horribly bad trick is when they try to explain how things didn’t REALLY change anyway.
The sedevacantists have a real point. The church of Trent is not the same church that emerged from Vat. II. Not by historic RCC standards. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus was radically revised for instance. I don’t wanna hear nuthin. That “defacto anathema” that I can’t get Tom to talk about was unheard of in historic Catholicism. At least in any form even vaguely resembling what it is today.
Tom, what you and Dear Mrs Webfoot are not getting is that when you set a standard of unity that goes no deeper than a check mark for Catholic on a questionnaire, that definition is utterly void of actually meaningful content.
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AB:
For there must be factions among you in order tthat those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 cor11:19>>>>>>
Exactly. Factions among you. Paul is saying that such factions are necessary so the genuine can be recognized.
I was thinking of the parable of the wheat and the tares as well. They grow together and are separated at the end of the age.
Same with the sheep and the goats.
This is about maintaining organizational unity as well as spiritual unity.
———————
Jeff:You missed the point of the analogy. Of course God hates divorce, and of course there are other options — which should be pursued.
In the analogy, the couple pursues none of those options, yet is still proud of their formal lack of divorce.>>>>>
The Catholic Church does pursue other options rather than divide. That is part of her secret of success. She tries to keep people in the Church and help them resolve their differences. In fact, she wants people to come home if they have left. That includes unhappy Catholics as well as Protestants who wish to enter the Church.
She is not like the married couple in your analogy.
——————————
Robert, thanks for your comments. Can’t think of too much to wrangle about, but there is the issue of Communion. The meaning of the Eucharist is so different that Catholics are not supposed to take Communion in other churches, nor are Christians from other churches supposed to partake of the body and blood of Christ. You know why, right?
There are exceptions.
—————————-
Then, what’s all y’all’s obsession with TVD? He makes a lot of sense to me. I don’t get that part. Of course, I know Tom and I am Catholic. That must make a difference. In fact, he told me about this blog. I have been reading some off and on for awhile. You seemed very grumpy. I thought that I’d just jump in and see how it goes.
—————
Greg, I looked at the Catholic guy’s video. Yes, he has some legit concerns. He is Catholic, though, so he doesn’t think he has to leave the Church, right? If he attends Mass, he will be in there with everyone, receiving the body and blood of Christ. The Eucharist is still the Eucharist and the Real Presence is still real.
It is the liturgy that unites us. Don’t know if people get that part since there’s so much focus by you guys on the Pope, which is also a unifying factor.
—————
D.G. Hart, interesting stats. Reminds me of Americans who don’t know much about what makes America special. People need to be informed and to inform themselves.
Some of your insults are kinda’ vulgar. Not sure what’s up with that.
—————–
Goodnight
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Greg The Terrible
Posted May 7, 2015 at 11:11 pm | Permalink
Dr. Hart says: “Ultimately, the neo-Cath strategy is to insist loudly that certain things can never be changed so long as the current Pontiff does not want to change them; then, when the “policy” changes with another pontiff, suggest just as loudly that such matters were never immune from change to begin with.
THIS is exactly right. Another horribly bad trick is when they try to explain how things didn’t REALLY change anyway.
The sedevacantists have a real point. The church of Trent is not the same church that emerged from Vat. II. Not by historic RCC standards.
Vat2 is nothing next to the Protestant Deformation. The sacraments–the important part–remain unchanged. And your agreement with the opinions of its dissenters [such as the “sedevacantists”] as to what’s the “real” Catholicism has no meaning, any more than your opinion of what the “real” Islam is.
Tom, what you and Dear Mrs Webfoot are not getting is that when you set a standard of unity that goes no deeper than a check mark for Catholic on a questionnaire, that definition is utterly void of actually meaningful content.
Actually, the Protestant hermeneutic of mob rule is the one that keeps harping on Catholicism’s dissenters. But the difference is, under mob rule, rather than just dissenting, your dissenters take over your churches.
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Robert,
Robert, thanks for your comments. Can’t think of too much to wrangle about, but there is the issue of Communion. The meaning of the Eucharist is so different that Catholics are not supposed to take Communion in other churches, nor are Christians from other churches supposed to partake of the body and blood of Christ. You know why, right?
I know that now. The issue is that it is not enforced. I grew up Lutheran and while I never had any interest in becoming RC, I did not think the Roman church was necessarily devoid of the gospel. When I was in college, I had to do a paper on Roman Catholicism that involved attending mass and interviewing a priest. The interview came before the mass. I met with a wonderfully kind priest, Father Sean, who graciously took the time to answer questions about Roman Catholicism that I had and needed answered for my paper. In any case, he was well aware that I was Protestant and in the course of our conversation learned where I would disagree with key RC tenets. At the end of the interview I asked him if I could take the Eucharist because I had heard that non-RCs were not supposed to take the Eucharist, and he said I could freely partake. So I did.
Nowadays my understanding of Roman Catholicism is much better, so I would never take the Eucharist. But the fact is I could, and I still could. Rome simply doesn’t enforce its own rules anymore. The best reading of that reality is that Rome is a pastoral failure. The worse, and perhaps more accurate reading is that Rome has changed.
Darryl’s point here is that if you want to be RC, knock yourself out (though he wouldn’t advise becoming RC). Just don’t talk about Rome’s superiority without being fully honest about Rome’s flaws. Bryan Cross and Called to Communion simply aren’t honest about Rome’s flaws. Whether that is intentional or they’re just so enamored of Rome that they can’t see the flaws is up for debate. But they certainly present Rome as this fully united, never-changing-faith church. History simply doesn’t support that.
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So you hemorrhage adherents who don’t organize all is well. You hemorage members who organize and stay in communion with one another and its “SCHISMATIC!”
The EOs (who are not in full communion with Rome) would disagree with your RC/~RC suggestion.
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Mrs. Webf., is you first name Susan?
Here are a few things to consider about your good friend, vd, t. He doesn’t play nice:
And watch out if Francis contradicts Larry Kudlow.
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sdb, just keep your eyes above the waist.
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TVD says: “Vat2 is nothing next to the Protestant Deformation. “
Meaning what? That because your division isn’t is bad as ours (which isn’t true at all anyway) you must be right? We are not your standard Tom. You have your own and that’s the point. Your church claims things for herself that no protestant church does. Therefore the standards to which she is being held are much stricter. SHE set those standards. Not us. Are we to be faulted for holding her to them?
Btw, cutesy, snarky plays on words like “deformation” are a sign of defeat.
TVD says: “Actually, the Protestant hermeneutic of mob rule is the one that keeps harping on Catholicism’s dissenters. But the difference is, under mob rule, rather than just dissenting, your dissenters take over your churches”.
Actually, the Roman Catholic practice of mob rule is the one that keeps harping on Protestant dissenters. But the difference is, under RCC mob rule, rather than just leaving or being thrown out, your heretics believe and do whatever they want and are welcomed to stay.
Look man. Pick a different argument .The unity thing doesn’t pass the side splitting, tearful hilarity test.
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Darryl,
Your metrosexual allies Jed, Zrim, and the Rev. Doc are not proving very helpful in warding off Tom.
Good thing Greg’s around.
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Mrs. Webfoot,
I’m glad we agree on 1 Cor. 11:19.
As for Tom, he’s been an OLTS feature for over two years. There’s many examples of good convos with him, I found this one. Take a look at the post and who was commenting. It’s not that different back 2 years ago as it is from today. Look at what sean wrote as well:
I’m done posting on this thread, really nice to “meet” you here at OLTS, it’s great to find people passionate about the Roman church. It helps inspire us to keep on doing what it is that we reformed protestants do.
Grace and peace.
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ec, comments are always open.
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D.G.,
If I can get whoever tattled to Jason to own up I might pay the $1,000 fine I’ve self-imposed and come back. Short of that I need to remain in exile. I can’t work with turncoats on my own side.
If they are a man they will just admit it publicly and we can all move forward.
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ec, give it up. Paranoia is unbecoming.
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That’s not what the polling data (or your church) says. While some who leave reject Christianity outright, many of those who leave the RCC do so saying something along the lines of “I believe in Jesus, but not the institution”. It is rather callous to assume that it is the Christianity that bothers them as opposed to the bishop who threatens them with excommunication for reporting their child’s rapist to the police. There is a reason the RCC is in freefall in Boston, NY, and Ireland and it isn’t the rise of nominalism.
Like the Dominicans and Jesuits? Or perhaps you have in mind something like church shopping so common among evangelicals – of course when I was in grad school you had those who landed at little flower for the progressive causes, others at St. Pats for the latin mass, and still others to the basilica for the high church service. Then we have Lefebvre, Maciel, and other various factions around. I know, I know not 30,000 right? But of course that number is highly misleading – you get there by counting the various sects in communion with Rome separately and every independent evangelical church as a separate denomination. In reality there are mainly five branches of protestantism: Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Reformed, and Pentecostal. Each of these has a mixture of truth and error (some more of one than the other), but for the most part they are in communion with one another in the sense that they share the table and confess the same Christology. It is hard to see what is fundamentally different about the split between the OPC, ARP, and PCA versus the Jesuits and Dominicans or the progressive congregation and the trad congregation.
I don’t represent anyone here or speak for anyone but myself. My frustration is not with Rome per se. I spent seven years at ND and greatly valued the experience. I have the utmost respect for a number of RC scholars and public intellectuals even if I ultimately disagree with them on a number of important points. To be sure, in many ways it would be easier for me professionally to swim the Tiber. But I remain unconvinced while respecting much of what the RCC stands for.
However, I have a very big problem with the triumphalism of ex-prot converts turned aggressive apologists. I find CTC particularly grating. Not because they have some amazing knockdown argument that makes me question anything either. It is the intellectual dishonest of their effort. Perhaps I am particularly sensitive to it based on my time at ND where I saw a number of colleagues follow the evangelical->reformed->RC->agnostic/atheist path. When they did, the conversion to RC almost always resulted from falling for a sales pitch that led to the arrogant triumphalism on display at CTC. The rigidly over intellecualized faith appeals to a lot of folks in the reformed camp suffering from a sort of intellectual “small mans disease”. They think they can assuage their doubt by joining the winning team only to find their expectations crumple in the face of reality. I’m not saying every convert at CTC will end up an atheist, but I’ve seen it an awful lot.
Rod Dreher has written (and is continuing to write) eloquently about how his arrogance and over intellectualized approach to faith nearly destroyed him when he saw what he saw investigating the abuse scandal (not the despicable priests, but the Bishops and Cardinals who continue to crush those under their care in a quest to save their position). I don’t Susan, KW, Jason, or Bryan so I don’t have much emotionally invested, but I worry about the state of their faith based on my experience with others who have followed similar paths.
My point (and that of several around here I think, though I don’t speak for them) is not and never has been that the RCC is just as messed up as the Prots therefore protestantism is true. Rather my point is that humility is called for as the sales pitch coming from CTC (adorned with trophies) is not the whole story…be careful. A secondary point is that the case for the motives of credibility are much weaker than they let on and there are serious questions about the claims Rome makes for herself, therefore, the protestant project is justifiable. Whether one is ultimately convinced or not is another story and a different conversation from the one that has been going on here by my estimation (though several of us have outlined the basic historic/biblical case for the protestant approach to scripture that never seems to get much attention here).
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D.G.,
Paranoia may be unbecoming but a website that spends all day blasting someone only to then sneak off and tell him secrets is pathological and phony.
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From: Jason Stellman
To: erikcharter@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:55 PM
Subject: Your Email
Hi Erik,
******** forwarded your email to me in which you apologized for how you have behaved toward us. Speaking of which, I was told that you have been telling people that * ** ********* ** **** (I won’t ask you if this is true, I know it is). If you wouldn’t mind, please include as part of this attempt on your part to amend your actions a promise not to spread gossip about my personal life and that of my family, but rather to come to me with any rumors you may hear.
Thank you,
Jason
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Let’s play Clue. The only guys who could have gone to Jason with the contents of private e-mails are:
Darryl Hart
Chortles Weakly
Amish Ambush
Sean
Zrim
Kent
Muddy Gravel
All but Darryl Hart have denied it. Zrim hadn’t denied it until a few weeks ago.
Which makes either (a) one of those guys a liar, (b) Darryl Hart the turncoat
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ec, I have better things to do than to tell others what you say or write.
Plus, I haven’t communicated with Stellman since my last comment at his blog which has to be about 18 months ago.
Give it up.
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ec, if making me the jackarse makes you feel better about leaving Old Life, so be it. But like I say, I haven’t communicated with Stellman in a long time.
You’re the one who lurks everywhere.
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Darryl,
Religious people who lie rub me very wrong. You have your hot buttons, that’s one of mine. One of the seven of you is lying. The relevance is that it casts doubt on the validity of your whole project here.
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ec, I answered. My “whole project” is not here.
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Erik, could there not be an intermediary(s) between your list of suspects and Jason? I don’t know anything about this, but common sense would say that an email can be shared any number of times between different people before it finally reaches its final destination.
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Reminded of this saying:
just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get me
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Robert:
At the end of the interview I asked him if I could take the Eucharist because I had heard that non-RCs were not supposed to take the Eucharist, and he said I could freely partake. So I did.>>>>
The priest has a certain amount of discretion. He seems to have exercised it in your case by giving you permission to partake of communion. I know of two cases where the priest gave special permission because of special circumstances.
It is harsh to say that what he did implies pastoral failing.
“Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 §4).
“http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-eucharist/guidelines-for-the-reception-of-communion.cfm
Robert:
Darryl’s point here is that if you want to be RC, knock yourself out (though he wouldn’t advise becoming RC). Just don’t talk about Rome’s superiority without being fully honest about Rome’s flaws.>>>>
Well, Darryl is an old style anti-Catholic Protestant even thought the WCF has softened some of its anti-Catholic rhetoric. All he sees are flaws it seems.
What is superior about the Catholic Church?
1. She recognizes all true Christians as Christians and includes them as part of the Church.
2. She desires the kind of unity that Jesus spoke of in John 17.
3. She has lasted for 2,000 years, giving her some basis for claiming that the gates of hell have not prevailed against her.
4. Her music is superior.
5. Her art is superior.
6. Her theology is superior.
7. Her philosophy is superior.
8. Her dogmas are superior.
9. Her traditions are superior.
10. All that is good in Protestantism can be traced back to the work she did for the 1,500 years before Protestantism came on the scene.
11. Her methodology for resolving conflicts is superior.
12. Her good works are superior.
Sure, there are many areas where she needs greater sanctification.
Luther was wrong when he said “That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth.” Did he think that the Gospel originated with him and that no one before him defended the truth of Christ?
Protestants owe a huge debt of gratitude to the Catholic Church, actually.
I used to see all and only problems in the Catholic Church. I still see problems, but I know what it is like from the Protestant side of things and to see little or no good in her. She needs to be loved and defended.
Now, defend Protestantism if you will. Yes, there are many, many good and godly people and many of those are Presbyterians. Defend it. Love it. Preach Christ.
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Darryl is an old style anti-Catholic Protestant even thought the WCF has softened some of its anti-Catholic rhetoric.
She with webbed feets, the good kind or bad kind? Darryl actually represents more the former. TVD wants to claim the republic for Calvinism, which implies the latter (is there such a thing as an anti-Catholic Catholic bigot? Guess so).
https://confessionalouthouse.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/a-better-anti-catholicism/
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Erik, you’re no Benedict Cumberbatch. Metrosexuals, unite!
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Mrs. Webfoot, you may not be familiar with some of the things I write, but you may also want to speak in an informed way. Since you are new to Roman Catholicism and also new to anti-Catholicism, you may not have a clue about old-style anti-Catholicism. I have written explicitly against it:
I’ll be glad to stand with the 16th-century reasons for opposing Rome. Maybe you’ll pony up the courage to ask your bishops the last time they anathematized anyone.
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D.G. Hart:
Rome tries to offer a version of Christian liberty, but in its teaching about merit, the Virgin Mary, purgatory, and the accomplishments of saints, it yields a version of freedom that is ultimately spiritual bondage. This is so because Rome’s understanding of salvation still does not acknowledge the complete sufficiency of Christ for freedom from sin, guilt, death, and the devil. Thus, American Protestants should continue to oppose Roman Catholicism, not because of American conceptions of political freedom, but because of the Reformation’s notion of spiritual liberty.>>>>>
The last sentence is telling. I would have expected you to present a Biblical refutation of the dogmas you cite. However, instead of that you refer to your own Reformation traditions.
You fail the sola scriptura test.
Otherwise, an interesting historical summary of anti-Catholic sentiments in the US. Thank you for that.
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Darryl,
Let’s recap why I am where I am currently at.
After many months of working alongside you I dealt with lies told about me here from a Catholic antagonist.
I received little to no support from you and my “friends” through that.
After taking on Greg the Terrible I had a three comment rule invoked upon me.
After protesting that I had to listen to pious lectures from two guys who rarely even comment here, one of whom has since made a game of speculating on the OPC allowing married gay members.
In the midst of all this I had the content of private e-mails shared with Jason Stellman. All 7 of the guys who have could have done that have denied it. Someone is lying.
So call me cynical.
This isn’t your “whole project”, but you spend a lot of time and effort here, as do several NAPARC officers. Your critique and the critique of these officers isn’t so much that Roman Catholicism is not biblical (although that would be a more relevant critique), it’s that a lot of Catholics behave badly and receive little to no discipline from the Catholic hierarchy.
So when I deal with not just NAPARC church members, but church officers, and they behave badly, consider me cynical and disheartened.
Now I can certainly put it out as well as take it. When people tell lies and betray confidences, that’s playing outside the lines. I’m not sure exactly what I did to deserve that, especially from guys who were supposedly on my “team”.
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Jack,
Possible, but those 7 guys would know who they shared e-mails with and could come clean if they wanted to.
We have guys among us who get off on playing both sides.
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Mrs. Webfoot, so far you have yet to cite a single bishop. Epi[s]c[opal] fail yourself. Have you ever heard of word count?
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Erik, I’m not Joe Paterno. I can’t keep up with all the comments here or all the emails that flew through the few and the proud. Now you want me (and others) to act like we’re signing mortgage papers when we communicate with you.
Get a grip.
There’s something wrong with thinking a blog is a “whole” project and concluding that a few interlocutors here or on email invalidate NAPARC.
As Woody Allen said in Annie Hall to Annie’s brother, “I’m do back on planet earth.”
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playing both sides.
and, reminds me of this…
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Forgive me if I am speaking out of turn, but it seems to me an interesting thing happened in this blog around the time Jason Stellman swam the tiber.
Looking in the archives, I find no Are the CTCers Paying Attention? posts from about Late 2012 and before. The blog seemed to be more about promoting the positives of reformed protestantism.
However, with the Jason Stellman episode in summer of 2012 through the end of 2012, this blog took a new turn, and that meant a significant amount of writing against Called to Communion.
It’s not hard to understand why. If you listen to bad christian dot com episode #83 where Jason Stellman is interviewed, he cites CtC as the principal reason for conversion to Roman Catholicism (his words: “i stumbled upon a website that pointed out the problems with sola scriptura and sola fide”)
But if you look at the about section of this blog, look what it says:
For sure the health of our system depends on defenses and attacks from perceived threats. However, there doesn’t seem to have been a large concerted or perceived concerted threat before the Stellman episode of summer of 2012.
Now, this blog plays a pivotal role in providing an opposing voice to the narrative at CtC about what Roman Catholicism is.
All of this makes for interesting little mini subplots (who would have thought JJS would become the DrunkExPastor? that angry catholic nick would become the stellman stand in? that Kenneth would start carrying his wife Leslie along in his avatar photo? (I haven’t even mentioned Greg the Terrible and his effect on this blog the last year ) and so on and on it goes..)
I think this all points to Mrs. Webfoot/TVD’s confusion about this blog. Darryl, as I perceive him, is not anti-catholic, He’s not perceived that way in the wider world, either. Some people are (James White comes to mind) but not Darryl. He is anti-called to communion, but on the basis of what he would be against if anyone was promoting their religion in the way they have done (read: triumphalism).
It’s hard to understand where we are now in the whole CtC/OLTS mismash without understanding the history, and fortunately, some of us have been along for the entire ride, and plan to keep tuning in to see whatever develops next. We need a timeline showing how things developed here and there, something like a Tim Challies chart, but we don’t have his mad skills (CW is the best we have with his Calvin heads, he superimposes on the dos equis man) so yeah, not sure where we go from here, but that’s what I see, fwiw…
sorry to make you read through all that. hope it helps. regards, ab
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Erik,
FWIW, my advice is look at the Roman Catholic / Reformed Protestant debate away from these blogs and how each of us, the little interlocutors who aren’t employed in the religious industry and are more just along for the ride, fits in to the puzzle (whatever small part we may play, if any, at all).
In other words, there is a real debate of the issues (you know, justification, the stuff that’s too boring for TVD to bother himself with, which leaves me with little reason to ever engage him seriously if he basically tells us from the get go he doesn’t care or is interested in what we hold dear) and then there’s the blogs. The blogs have all these personal issues and communication issues. The issues are what matter, and it’s rare when these blogs actually get to the issues, for the purposes of informing the new people that come along and find this ongoing discussion.
The more we get back to THE ISSUES, and away from the person stuff that just clutters the combox, the better of we and anyone who may possibly stumble up this blog, will be. But I’m not one to talk (calling the kettle black here, in other words, i know i know..)
who’s next?
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Erik, if we’re going to look at this from a biblically-informed perspective how about the two witnesses thing? If someone wronged you and it cannot be proven what do you do? Keep hammering on it? Keep invoking “the 7”? Keep talking about “they” when it might be one? Keep expressing distrust? It might be best to let it go.
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Sorry, my point in the 3:00pm post:
More Rome vs. Geneva issues (as far as the debate with CTC or Rome more broadly, is concerned)
Less personal issues.
I’m out.
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Darryl,
That’s “due”, not “do”.
You see no problem with a guy (not saying you’re that guy) who publicly blasts Jason and then betrays a confidence to go to him privately to reveal private information?
Does the OPC still deal with ethics and integrity or have they moved on to more ethereal topics?
Change your integrity-based apologetic against Catholicism and this may not bother me so much. As it is I feel like a lot of phoniness is going on and, like you, I can’t resist pointing out phoniness.
It’s Old Life as WWF. A Dog-and-Pony show where afterwards the wrestlers are palling around together.
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CW,
Or you could join me in asking for a confession so your name is not sullied.
I can likely get the answer from Jason himself — for a price — but it would be better for the offender’s soul to confess.
Eventually I think I’ll get it one way or another.
The irony is that Jason is the one who is doing all the laughing because we just can’t resist being Machen’s Warrior Children – with each other.
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Darryl says: “Maybe you’ll pony up the courage to ask your bishops the last time they anathematized anyone.”
Asking that very question was the occasion for my learning of the to me never before heard of “defacto anathema”.(excommunication) I asked an RCC laymen I’d known very well online for 6 years and who had established himself with me as a sterling source of reliable Romanist information.
He linked me somewhere, I don’t remember where now, but it was authoritative. The gist is that everyone who SHOULD be excommunicated actually IS. Invisibly. I kid you not, for anybody who’s never heard this. They have excommunicated themSELVES by their unrepentant persistence in mortal sin.
So. All all those modernist heretics and moral degenerates that we are always asking about actually ARE out of communion with the body and bride of Christ, along with His vicar on earth even as they extend their tongues to receive the divine and full latria worthy eucharist.
That’s why I keep asking how this comports with 1 Cor 5, where human language is incapable of conveying anything more clearly than the apostle’s command to remove the flagrant and unrepentant from their midst. Citing both the protection of the flock and the retrieval of the wicked from their sin as his motivation.
I’d love to hear an explanation for this. My friend didn’t have a very good one. Because none is possible. Once the Vatican figured out that they could put “Mary Has a Little Lamb” (no, not THAT Mary) in an encyclical and people would treat it as holy writ, all bets were off.
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@ AB: … but on the basis of what he would be against if anyone was promoting their religion in the way they have done (read: triumphalism).
Ding, ding.
Mrs. W, take note here. DGH is not anti-Catholic, so much as anti-triumphalist. That cuts across the board for Catholics, Presbyterians, etc.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 8, 2015 at 7:01 am | Permalink
Mrs. Webf., is you first name Susan?
Here are a few things to consider about your good friend, vd, t. He doesn’t play nice:
Today, we are announcing that League contributor Tom Van Dyke will no longer be contributing to the site. Without going into great detail, we believe that the fit is simply not a good one, and that too often Tom’s contributions here have led to controversy, mistrust, and bad feelings overall. Many people have played a role in this ongoing issue, but it is apparent to us that the situation as it stands is simply unsustainable and, in the end, unsalvageable.
And watch out if Francis contradicts Larry Kudlow.
Oh this is the dregs, when Old Life has no more principled reply, so it resorts to the personal, and plays dirty.
As for my lynching at that blog, the true story is here. They behave a lot like Old Life when they cannot hold their own fair and square.
http://sonnybunch.com/thoughtcrimes-ca-2012/
However, a number of the contributors who were not involved with the lynching still follow me on Twitter, and of course Tim Kowal is my blogbrother once again at The New Reform Club.
Shame, shame, Darryl.
And yes, Andrew, your endless prattling about “justification” IS boring, almost as boring as Darryl’s prattle about Vatican II. In the end, you don’t know and can’t know if God will choose to save everyone. If he does, I suspect many of “Elect” will be disappointed [Mt 20:1-16].
Of far more importance is Calvinism’s evisceration of the sacraments–esp the Eucharist–and by what authority it did so. By the time the Deformers were done with Christian faith, all that was left is dry toast. You have the faith, just a constipated version of it.
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@ Erik:
I’m sorry that something unpleasant seems to have happened to you. I don’t understand the particulars, but I feel at this point as if I’m reading someone else’s mail.
I would suggest asking Jason directly for the information you’re after.
And then you have a couple of choices: confront privately and escalate as needed, or else forgive.
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Erik, listen to Jeff. He’s the best.
Thanks Jeff.
Tom, Sola Scriptura was the formal cause of the Reformation, justification the material cause (see RC Sproul) Boring or not, if you want to hang with us, get used to our prattle.
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Tom, I like toast. And biblically-informed deletion of unbiblical accretion is even better.
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Jeff,
If they guy would e-mail me privately and confess that would be the end of it. I wouldn’t reveal who it was and would consider the matter closed.
Jason and I have communicated as, as mentioned, there is a price for him to reveal the name. I’m not willing to pay that price…yet.
Choice #3 – comments are open so I do what I want. I’m done backing down just because people wet their pants and call me crazy, say they need to get back to planet earth, or tell lies about me. That’s reveals their lack of character, not mine. You were nice, though, so I appreciate that.
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D.G. Hart, you did not even reference the Bible when saying that the Catholic Church is wrong doctrinally. You referenced Reformed tradition. You could have easily stayed within your word count by adding the words “and Scripure” or “based on Scripture and” to the word “Reformation’s”, yet you did not. Maybe this was written to Protestants who would know what you meant by Reformation’s traditions – WCF, 5 solas, etc.- so it was a shorthand way of referring to it?
What I am grateful to Protestantism for is my strong Biblical background. In fact, I am grateful for many things, including the fact that the Gospel was preached to me from the time I was a small child. I still gladly participate in Protestant events. My Church does not prohibit it, since Protestants are Christians. I would not have joined a church that teaches otherwise.
Here is Wikipedia’s list of those who have been excommunicated from the Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
I suppose this is the latest.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/09/27/pope-francis-excommunicates-australian-priest/
Do you think it should be done more often? It has not been done very often at all during the history of the Church if Wikkipedia is correct. There are a few that I would like to see kicked out. Who is on your list? 🙂
I still don’t get what it is you want me to see about Tom. Your attempts to discredit him with me amount to saying “don’t listen to him.” I listen to Tom. You have given me no reason not to. He gives me many reasons to continue to listen to him.
It’s too bad that he annoys you. Can’t change that.
I will say it again. Tom is a friend of mine. I like him. He makes me think. Sorry he rubs you the wrong way. I have no power over that.
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@ TVD:
I think you confuse “has no principled reply” for “is no longer willing to interact.”
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erik, in my world I — as I say — I can’t control what all my interlocutors do or with whom they communicate. You keep escalating and the fall from that horse is going to be a long one.
Chill.
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vd, t, but didn’t Calvinism give you the American founding? Don’t your “Followers” agree?
Love the Socrates complex, vd, t:
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Erik: If they guy would e-mail me privately and confess that would be the end of it.
Very true, but sadly not under your control.
Erik: Jason and I have communicated as, as mentioned, there is a price for him to reveal the name. I’m not willing to pay that price…yet.
That seems weird, but I don’t understand the particulars. If his price is something you ought to do anyways, then pay up regardless. If his price is something you ought not do, then have nothing more to do with it.
If it’s neutral, well …
The big lesson from my 20s was this: Conflict is not the end of relationship.
Blessings,
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@Jeff – that’s good. There seems to be a lot of that around the web.
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Jeff,
This is not complicated. One of the key Reformed guys here betrayed a confidence and went to Jason with things they learned from me in a private e-mail. I want that person to confess.
Darryl,
Nothing is being escalated. It’s a 2 month old problem that is the same today as it was then. And it’s simple for the offender to solve. One e-mail to me, it’s forgotten, and we all move on.
I air it here because it originated here. I wouldn’t know Jason or any of these guys (save one) but for Old Life.
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Darryl – You keep escalating and the fall from that horse is going to be a long one.
Erik – And what is blogging on Catholic moral failures (and failure to discipline) for years on end? How far will your fall be?
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Erik, Huh!?!
You’re comparing a month’s worth of emails to 2000 years of European history — to borrow the refrain of Walter Sobchak — from Peter to Knute Rockne.
Escalation indeed.
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 8, 2015 at 3:40 pm | Permalink
@ TVD:
I think you confuse “has no principled reply” for “is no longer willing to interact.”
Au contraire, mon cheri. When they start flinging poo-poo, it’s still “interacting.” It’s just that they’ve run out of adult ammunition.
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Darryl,
We’re talking about having standing to criticize. 5 of the 7 guys still spout off here regularly. If I’m a liar or a backstabber, what business do I have criticizing others’ moral failings? It goes to an issue of credibility.
Am I going to buy a weight loss plan from a guy who weighs 400 lbs?
Am I going to buy a religion from a guy who can’t get basic morality right?
Once again, I’m not saying that you’re the guy I’m talking about.
Join me in asking the guy to confess so we can move on. He’s leaving the rest of you hanging.
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In the Christian religion, being a leader is largely about personal morality. Look at our Consistories — it’s not always the most knowledgeable or intellectual guys — it’s guys we hope we can trust.
1 Timothy 3 New International Version (NIV)
Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons
3 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, the women[c] are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
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I got a confession via e-mail. As far as I’m concerned that matter is closed.
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Erik, hallelujah.
Now we can get back to discussing Jimmy and Bunk.
Next.
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Mrs Webfoot, so you want to play Wikipedia lists? Well, here’s one of all the people executed in the papal states when the pope was a temporal ruler:
Now the pope throws the previous popes under the bus and says capital punishment is wrong?
I want consistency. Or does truth for you mean whatever.
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DGH, first you complain that Rome doesn’t discipline then you complain that it does. You Presbyterians are hard to please.
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Muddy, actually, it would be a perfectly plausible explanation to say that Rome no longer disciplines because it once did so Islamically. But because nothing ever changes and the Church is the perfect society . . .
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That list of papal executions is quite illuminating. But I’m sure the paradigm can explain why the w church once thought capital punishment okay and now doesn’t. I doubt, however, that the explanation consists of anything more than CTC sticking its fingers in its ears and saying: “you’re begging the question and not being charitable. You’re begging the question and not being charitable.”
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You’ll have to forgive me.
I just want my golf clubs showing up with Mr. Allen, MG (she’s trading her MG for a white Chrysler LeBaron), and Robert the indefatigable. Seriously Robert, I’ll be you (and Brandon Addison for sure) a round a nine hole when you are in my neighborhood.
Good week at Oldlife. Erik is happy, TVD denies the mullet. Webfoot keeps us on our toes.
Have a great Lord’s day, all.
Fore.
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D.G. Hart, the underlying issue is whether or not Jesus Christ established a Church here on this earth in which He deposited truth which was to be passed down from generation to generation, from faithful men to faithful men. Is Christ infallible and His Gospel true and unchanging and is He the Head of something or someone?
If the Head is infallible, then the teaching He deposits in His body must also be infallible. Is that teaching contained in scripture alone, or are there traditions drawn from Scripture that take on the same characteristic of infallibility?
Is Christ an infallible Head sitting on top of a body that He, through the workings of the Holy Spirit, makes sure keeps the faith once for all deposited in her? That goes to the sufficiency of Christ after all. How do Protestants avoid claiming that true orthodoxy began with them after a 1,500 year hiatus? That would undermine the sufficiency of Christ to purchase and then establish His Church.
So, the history of the Church is what? Pentecost, then 1,500 years of false religion, then the true church finally gets going with the Reformation? Even Protestants cherry pick Catholic history and dogma, trying to decide what is and what is not orthodox. Thank God they decided on the Trinity and the Incarnation, plus the inspiration of Scripture – even though they left out books that Jesus and the 12 considered to be Scripture and referred to on numerous occasions.
So, now, back to Francis and capital punishment. Notice that he did not change any dogma. He says that capital punishment may have been needed in times past, but now we have other ways of accomplishing the same purpose – protecting society and punishing lawbreakers.
It is not unreasonable, – given the Church’s pro life stance which he is appealing to – to ask that countries re think their laws to find better ways. He lays out a case as to why, given the human rights abuses of totalitarian regimes, it is reasonable to abolish the death penalty.
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Mrs. Webfoot,
“Is Christ infallible and His Gospel true and unchanging and is He the Head of something or someone?”
Yes, he is the head of the church not the pope. (See what I did there?)
“If the Head is infallible, then the teaching He deposits in His body must also be infallible. Is that teaching contained in scripture alone, or are there traditions drawn from Scripture that take on the same characteristic of infallibility?”
Scripture alone. Even Aquinas knew the superiority of Scripture, and that, unlike many gullible repeaters of your question, that it’s a tad in the interest of the magisterium to have an undocumented handed down tradition to which they can resort when they need to. Talk about reasons why reform can’t happen.
“Is Christ an infallible Head sitting on top of a body that He, through the workings of the Holy Spirit, makes sure keeps the faith once for all deposited in her?”
Sure, but nothing that Christ did implies a Roman-centric view of Christianity. If anything, the church that comes closest to the one he founded was Jerusalem. Unless you think, the way Mormons believe that Christ visited North America, you think he visited Europe. Gullibility alert.
“So, the history of the Church is what? Pentecost, then 1,500 years of false religion, then the true church finally gets going with the Reformation?”
I’ve explained it here.
In fact, without Protestantism Rome wouldn’t have even ventured the infallible dogma of Trent. Until then, most papal teaching concerned maintaining and defending Rome’s power.
The thanks we get.
Of course nothing ever changes except when it does. Is human life still sacred? Then what about the lives of people murdered? That used to be the reason for defending capital punishment. Now the pope knows criminal science? Where’s the unwritten tradition for that?
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ALMOST 14 PAGES, 6,309 words, 42,012 characters.
I can’t find my previous record holder. It’s around here somewhere, but that’s gotta rival it fer sher.
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Mrs. Webfoot
Posted May 9, 2015 at 2:02 pm | Permalink
D.G. Hart, the underlying issue is whether or not Jesus Christ established a Church here on this earth in which He deposited truth which was to be passed down from generation to generation, from faithful men to faithful men. Is Christ infallible and His Gospel true and unchanging and is He the Head of something or someone?
If the Head is infallible, then the teaching He deposits in His body must also be infallible. Is that teaching contained in scripture alone, or are there traditions drawn from Scripture that take on the same characteristic of infallibility?
Is Christ an infallible Head sitting on top of a body that He, through the workings of the Holy Spirit, makes sure keeps the faith once for all deposited in her? That goes to the sufficiency of Christ after all. How do Protestants avoid claiming that true orthodoxy began with them after a 1,500 year hiatus? That would undermine the sufficiency of Christ to purchase and then establish His Church.
So, the history of the Church is what? Pentecost, then 1,500 years of false religion, then the true church finally gets going with the Reformation? Even Protestants cherry pick Catholic history and dogma, trying to decide what is and what is not orthodox. Thank God they decided on the Trinity and the Incarnation, plus the inspiration of Scripture – even though they left out books that Jesus and the 12 considered to be Scripture and referred to on numerous occasions.
So, now, back to Francis and capital punishment. Notice that he did not change any dogma. He says that capital punishment may have been needed in times past, but now we have other ways of accomplishing the same purpose – protecting society and punishing lawbreakers.
It is not unreasonable, – given the Church’s pro life stance which he is appealing to – to ask that countries re think their laws to find better ways. He lays out a case as to why, given the human rights abuses of totalitarian regimes, it is reasonable to abolish the death penalty.
Professor Hart receives another well-earned spanking.
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vd, t, I think your boy David Barton needs more help that Webfoot.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 9, 2015 at 9:28 pm | Permalink
vd, t, I think your boy David Barton needs more help that Webfoot.
You need the help, Professor. Mrs. Webfoot just took your attack on the Vatican’s position on capital punishment to school.
For all the time you spend attacking Catholicism, you know little about it, and the little you do know is wrong.
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Your metrosexual allies Jed, Zrim, and the Rev. Doc are not proving very helpful in warding off Tom.
Switch pudgy, and typically unshowered with metrosexual, and you might be closer. But, I have to say, being the William Wallace of Old Life suits you well. The Lords of OL are cowering in their castles whilst Erik rides for his Revenge in the Night.
Maybe the alternative is Tom doesn’t need any warding off (new haircut, maybe). OL keeps on truckin as long as the dude is posting. It’s not exactly rocket surgery dude.
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This time, with emphasis:
vd, t, Barton needs your help.
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Never forget, TVD loves DGH and his henchmen, yo:
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Mrs W.: So, now, back to Francis and capital punishment. Notice that he did not change any dogma. He says that capital punishment may have been needed in times past…
I’m sorry, where are you seeing that? I am looking at the encyclical and see nothing about “times past.”
He actually says this:
Francis:
— Pope Francis, To The President of the International Commission
His arguments against the death penalty:
* Life belongs to God alone
* The death penalty is not applied to persons who are a current threat, but on the basis of past aggression.
* It is an offence to the inviolability of life
* It contradicts God’s plan for man, society, and merciful justice
* It fails to conform to any just form of punishment
* It foments revenge…
etc.
Not one of the reasons that he asserts against the death penalty are time- or society-dependent. If his argument is correct now, it has always been correct; the death penalty has always been wrong.
Unless, of course, humans have more dignity and worth now than they did in times past. Perhaps this is so; after all, there were fewer of them then. /irony
Does he give any exceptions? Only when In certain circumstances, when hostilities are underway, a measured reaction is necessary in order to prevent the aggressor from causing harm, and the need to neutralize the aggressor may result in his elimination; it is a case of legitimate defence (cf. Evangelium Vitae, n. 55). Clearly this intends legitimate self-defense.
Does this perhaps extend to the death penalty in times past? No. For he says,
Nevertheless, the prerequisites of legitimate personal defence are not applicable in the social sphere without the risk of distortion.
So there it is. Contrary to the assertion, Francis lays out an argument against the death penalty that would make it wrong in all times and in all places.
He would especially repudiate the death penalty for robbery, and he repudiates the notion of “exemplary death” found several times in DGH’s list above.
Francis again: For a constitutional state the death penalty represents a failure, because it obliges the State to kill in the name of justice. Dostoyevsky wrote: “To kill a murderer is a punishment incomparably worse than the crime itself. Murder by legal sentence is immeasurably more terrible than murder by a criminal”. Justice is never reached by killing a human being. (emph add)
There seems to be little-to-no wiggle room here to justify the death penalty in times past. Where are you finding that?
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Then-Cardinal Ratzinger on the death penalty:
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia. — Ratzinger, Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion, emph add
It may be permissible … Justice is never reached. Same idea, different words, right?
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“In certain circumstances, when hostilities are underway, a measured reaction is necessary in order to prevent the aggressor from causing harm, and the need to neutralize the aggressor may result in his elimination; it is a case of legitimate defence (cf. Evangelium Vitae, n. 55).”
Clearly this intends legitimate self-defense.
—True.
Does this perhaps extend to the death penalty in times past? No.
—Irrelevant to times past.
For he says,
“Nevertheless, the prerequisites of legitimate personal defence are not applicable in the social sphere without the risk of distortion.”
So there it is.
—There it isn’t. His argument is “Today capital punishment is unacceptable, however serious the condemned’s crime may have been.”
Today.
Francis’s argument is not that capital punishment is intrinsically wrong, but that there is a better and more Christian way, especially in these modern times. To demand a slavish consistency from him is disingenuous: His argument is a development of the pro-life position, not a repudiation of all human history to date.
Further, he is not speaking ex cathedra here. It may come as a surprise to those who get their knowledge of Catholicism from this blog that popes do not always offer their exhortations and opinions as infallible.
In fact, they do so very seldom, and this is not one of those times.
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vd, t, “there is a better and more Christian way, especially in these modern times.”
Ron Sider meets David Barton.
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Jed,
With your semi-annual comments and the host getting beyond the maturity of a 12-year old, it might work out.
Someone needs to be the bigger man between Darryl & Tom and I’m hoping it’s the OPC officer.
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Erik, you left out Jed’s meds.
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Hey, anyone want to see what Jupiter looked like from my backyard last night (emoticon)(yo, guys)? It’s set to Bach’s Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major, using my Celestron NexStar 4SE with my Nikon D3100. Dr. Terry Gray (remember him, TVD?) and I like this space stuff.
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Erik, Tom doesn’t like 2k theology, and likes talking with real historians. It’s same stuff, different day. I try to keep my comments desultory or else people will think the axis of the earth has shifted.
But since you bring up OPC officers, I’ll chime in with what I said before:
Have a nice day at church!
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Darryl,
That’s too personal. If he seriously has medical issues it’s not funny or kind to poke fun at that. He can’t help it.
That’s a basic thing most of us learn post-8th grade.
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Andrew,
If someone comes here and pokes the host day after day and the host responds in kind day after day, how do we get anywhere?
The Christians here are some of the smarter Christians around, but at the same time some of the more immature Christians around.
You don’t win an argument with a Tom by sinking to his level — that just feeds his fire. If you approach him in a Cagle-like way, though, eventually the juxtapositon is so stark that everyone sees it and draws their own conclusions.
As it is you just have a (nominally) Catholic guy being a jerk to a Reformed guy and a Reformed guy being a jerk to a (nominally) Catholic guy. It stopped being entertaining a year ago.
If Darryl plays it straight with Tom and Tom persists in being an obstinate jerk, than I would just give Tom the boot. Life’s too short.
For starters, drop the vd, t. It bothers Tom because of the link with venereal disease. Call him Tom. He can’t help his name.
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Erik, most of these blog comment issues (although some you lay out are directed at Darryl – granted) are sorted out by Mark Jones here (particularly the categories he lays out that apply in various measures to all of us commenters), and although Jeff i s not retired by my understanding, he is one of the unique consistently constructive contributors here. Maybe the only, as opposed to Darryl who pours his heart into his blog posts, just to make that clear. Here you go:
I personally think if Tom went to church, he would stop using this blog as his worship service, Darryl the priest who gets in TVD’s nerves, though I dont know TVD personally so that is only conjecture. I admit.
Take care. Always good to hear from you out here, bro.
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*as opposed to (above)
wrong word choice
Darryl and Jeff C contribute, Darryl his thoughtful posts, Jeff by his defending and helping the system prevalent here.
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Guys,
There are a number of people who put in yeoman’s work on various topics, and several of them are exemplary models of restraint in the face of provocation. No pedestals, no fanboys.
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@ Tom: You have two arguments.
(1) “Today” means “Today in contrast to times before”, so that Francis is not repudiating what has come before.
(2) But even if he’s wrong, he’s not speaking infallibly, so there’s no actual problem.
Both of these arguments are dubious.
(~1) “Today” could mean that, in a vacuum, but then Francis would be contradicting himself. Because all of his arguments, as mentioned before, are not relative to a certain time and place.
Again: If you want to say that the death penalty was OK for a previous time, then you would have to argue that humans had less dignity and worth in God’s eyes in a previous time — or else abandon Francis’s argument.
Do you really want to walk down the road of relativism?
Given the structure of his argument, it seems clear that “today” means something like “especially today.”
But if you insist that “today” must mean a clean break between past and present, then there’s a ἕως I’d like you to meet:
ἐγερθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰωσὴφ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕπνου ἐποίησεν ὡς προσέταξεν αὐτῷ ὁ ἄγγελος κυρίου καὶ παρέλαβεν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ· καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν [m]υἱόν· καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν.
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. — Matt 1.24-25.
The problem with your quick punching, TVD, is that you aren’t paying attention to consistency. And that’s bad for lovers of truth, for truth must be fully true, and not merely convenient for deflecting the point of the moment. Your approach is very short-sighted.
(~2) Yes, I’m fully aware that the pope does not speak ex cathedra often. My questions are, Is he authoritative at other times? And isn’t he supposed to uphold established doctrine at all those other times?
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Jeff, you are right, there’s no “I” in team (there is a “me”..)
Still, when you bring in Greek, its like watching S. Curry and that high arc. Props bro.
Have a great Lord’s day.
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Erik, it must be nice being able to set up shop in another man’s living room and tell him how to run his house with total impugnity, I haven’t found a pill that will help me with that yet. And, if I wasn’t up for an occasional friendly ribbing over my medical condition, I certainly wouldn’t have brought it up here. It’s fair game mon frere.
If TVD really wants a substantive discussion with the Dude, he’s a big boy, I am sure he can make that happen. He seems rather content to exchange barbs – which it done with remarkable efficiency here.
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Jed,
Too many people forego the good stuff on this site because they’re turned off by all the petty BS.
Unlike all you fan boys I’ve been freed up to tell Darryl when his s**t stinks. I’m beholden to no one here.
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Jed – If TVD really wants a substantive discussion with the Dude, he’s a big boy, I am sure he can make that happen. He seems rather content to exchange barbs – which it done with remarkable efficiency here.
Erik – The point is not what Tom does or doesn’t do or wants. That’s irrelevant. The point is how a NAPARC officer, college professor, and noted scholar responds to what Tom does. Tom baits him day after day and he takes the bait. That’s not good.
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I had a magical Saturday with Tom where we actually had a productive back-and-forth. We were both courteous and it was an enjoyable conversation. A week later he was back in his usual mode and the result was that I said “enough” and just gave him the boot. This is where Darryl needs to get to — either be able to rise above how Tom operates or, if he can’t, get rid of him.
Darryl deleted my trackbacks so I know he’s got some censor in him if he gets fed up. There’s nothing wrong with that – we are not at the mercy of people who irritate us.
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Jeff absolutely has it right above. If you’re patient, Tom will make gaffes because he operates so quickly. He just wants to fire back a pat response without much thought. An example was last week when he accidentally linked Roman Catholics with Mormons.
Now Tom will just fire back something at Jeff to try to bait him (while ignoring the substantive points and questions that Jeff has raised), but Jeff won’t take the bait, will make another substantive point, and Tom will just look worse.
Then Darryl will come along with some petty insult or joke about Tom, shifting the focus and letting Tom off the hook.
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 10, 2015 at 11:55 am | Permalink
@ Tom: You have two arguments.
(1) “Today” means “Today in contrast to times before”, so that Francis is not repudiating what has come before.
(2) But even if he’s wrong, he’s not speaking infallibly, so there’s no actual problem.
Both of these arguments are dubious.
The Church is changing its mind on capital punishment. Therefore what?
There’s not even a thesis here to debate.
As for the rest of the peanut gallery, speaking about me in the third person when I’m ‘standing right here’ is unconscionably rude.
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Tom,
Not meaning to be rude, merely objective.
Would you agree that you and Darryl don’t have a very healthy dynamic between the two of you? There appears to be a lot of mutual hostility and disrespect. Is that fitting for discussions about the Christian religion?
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Y’all spend more time discussing the discussions than actually discussing. The problem is yours, as you said, junior high. Pass.
Me, I object when he writes something bogus about other people’s religions or politics. After registering my objection and setting the record straight, I’m happy to leave it there. To return to the topic, Jeff has been courteous and has avoided ad hom. My point is that demanding a slavish consistency of Catholicism is silly.
The Catholic Church used to burn up heretics, and indeed Calvin and Calvin’s Geneva burned up Michael Servetus. If you’ve noticed, I don’t play the Servetus card on Calvinism, because it’s petty, not probative. So is this particular roundup about the papal states.
I think not burning heretics is probably a good idea. I also changed my position on the death penalty a few years back, partly because of the Vatican’s [pre-Francis] arguments.
http://reformclub.blogspot.com/2009/09/on-capital-punishment.html
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But FTR, I do not think Francis’s arguments are the only possible valid arguments.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/03/capital-punishment-should-not-end.html
Again, popes do not speak infallibly on every subject under the sun, and indeed seldom try. Francis in particular doesn’t strike me as the ex cathedra type.
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This sums it up better than I ever could:
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Tom,
How about when you play the “Terry Gray” card, Darryl responds with Papal statements on evolution that are pretty similar to the OPC’s, and you continue to play the Terry Gray card. Is that operating in good faith?
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Tom,
We hear from the Callers that dogma can not and does not change. When we point out things that appear to have changed, we get either silence or a response that, “well, that’s not dogma”.
What is your view of what CAN and CANNOT change in the Catholic Church?
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vd, t, “Y’all spend more time discussing the discussions than actually discussing.”
Puhleeze. When was the last time that in response to a post from a Roman Catholic source about Roman Catholicism you actually responded to the merits of the case? Or has it been your modus operendi to simply yell “foul” and point to Protestantism’s (read PCUSA) problems?
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Erik Charter
Posted May 10, 2015 at 3:54 pm | Permalink
Tom,
How about when you play the “Terry Gray” card, Darryl responds with Papal statements on evolution that are pretty similar to the OPC’s, and you continue to play the Terry Gray card. Is that operating in good faith?
Surely after virtually 100s of good faith arguments, you’re not going to try exploit something I said in passing months ago, when this very thread is an ad hom disgrace. But iirc, the point was about “church discipline,” that the rejection of magisterium made Protestantism structurally oriented toward schism and atomization. Even a micro-denomination like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church [only 30,000 members] puts people on trial over theological chickenspit like evolution in the 21st century. [Ironically enough, an exercise of magisterium!]
Had they done so even 50 years ago, it would indeed by gotcha-farming the same as these bizarre Edgardo Montara things that have no probative value. Now, if you don’t mind, the only thing I’m interested in is the current live discussion Jeff and I are/were having. At the moment, my argument is that Darryl threw out another red herring on Mrs. Webfoot because she was kicking his ass.
Look, a squirrel!
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 10, 2015 at 4:05 pm | Permalink
vd, t, “Y’all spend more time discussing the discussions than actually discussing.”
Puhleeze. When was the last time that in response to a post from a Roman Catholic source about Roman Catholicism you actually responded to the merits of the case? Or has it been your modus operendi to simply yell “foul” and point to Protestantism’s (read PCUSA) problems?
More that Presbyterianism has every one of your Catholic “gotchas” 10 times worse. The rebuttal is always that these failings in either church are the result of men’s freedom to replace God’s will with their own, except in Protestantism’s case, heresy and schism are the rule not the exception, hence the 100s or 1000s of denominations.
I’m refuting the premise of your attacks, and their probativeness. What Michael Sean Winters or Garry Wills think amounts to nothing. Unlike Protestantism, Catholicism isn’t Family Feud, where whatever the mob thinks equals gospel truth.
And yes, here you are discussing the discussing instead of saying anything probative again.
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Tom, rude? Us?
Well, I did share my Jupiter videos, that counts for something?
John Calvin doesnt want us to be rude, please accept my apology. Here you go:
Tom,
I believe you brought up Terry Gray within the last week.
Is it productive to say that Mrs. Webfoot was “kicking (Darryl’s) ass”? Isn’t that the kind of rhetoric that supposedly turned her off to reformed people and helped lead to her conversion?
I witnessed that discussion and wondered why you were so impressed. I didn’t see Mrs. Webfoot saying anything innovative or especially impressive. Pretty much just the usual arguments.
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Tom,
I found it. It was may 6th that you most recently brought up Terry Gray. Darryl responded with a citation of Pius XII’s HUMANI GENERIS from 1950 and you tried to write that off as if it was not relevant to the 21st Century. 1950 is pretty recent by the standards of the Roman Catholic Church, though. I’m not sure what teaching you believe supersedes it.
Your only response was mocking Darryl over Gray again.
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I was going to discuss your discussion of discussing discussions but I already exceed my limits of comments and tolerance for chickenspit such as combing other threads for gotchas. No good comes of responding to these things except helping bury the actual discussion.
Catholicism’s evolution of its position on capital punishment is not probative, any more than that Calvinism doesn’t burn heretics anymore. As for the rest of Mrs. Webfoot’s arguments, they must have been effective enough that Darryl was compelled to fire off the non sequitur of capital punishment.
So, unless Jeff has a principled reply, y’all have succeeded in burying whatever legit discussion there was–as is par for the Old Life course. Junior high.
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Tom,
It was on page 4 of THIS thread…4 days ago.
This is where you can start to gain credibility and build some good faith. If you’re not sure how to reconcile HUMANI GENERIS with your critique of the OPC and Terry Gray, just say so. No one has every answer immediately at their fingertips. You can do some reading and revisit it later.
As far as capital punishment goes, would you agree that the Roman Catholic Church has a higher bar to get over than Protestant churches when it comes to the issue of change because it makes much bolder claims for itself?
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Tom,
If Catholics of a certain time period were putting their faith in their leaders to get things right and later we discover that their leaders had things wrong, are we right to feel sympathy for those Catholics who were misled by misguided leaders? Is this putting up with errir just a necessary consequence of putting one’s faith in a Church as opposed to putting it in Christ in a more direct, less mediated way?
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Erik, your comment got me to take a stroll down memory lane via WordPress’ Dashboard.
It seemed to start out okay with vd, t, five years ago. https://oldlife.org/2010/06/if-reformed-needs-to-be-distinguished-from-puritan-why-not-presbyterian/comment-page-1/#comment-8504
Then it got a little testy when vd, t thought I was harder on Sarah Palin than President Obama: https://oldlife.org/2013/04/at-least-2k-doesnt-produce-carrie-nations/comment-page-2/#comment-81211
Then along came the touchy subject of Rome and Bryan and the Jasons where vd, t’s upbringing began to surface: https://oldlife.org/2013/04/let-the-interpretation-resume/comment-page-1/#comment-81929
And then the clincher in my view — vd, t’s unwillingness to read a historical account of Calvinism compared to one prepared for the Heritage Foundation: https://oldlife.org/2013/06/confusing-johns/comment-page-1/#comment-87212
Ah, good times.
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Nothing’s buried, You CHOOSE to discuss the discussions. You aren’t above it all, so stop trying. If Darryl looked in his wordpress dashboard stats, you probably are only rivaled by Erik, who has an uncanny ability to post many comments , many of which entertain the 8 or so people who read out here.
Again, have some of my astronomical objects from last night put to music. Go practice your bass, go jam with The Cookies. Dont be grumpy, it’s the Lord’s day, dude:
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vd, t, how can Protestantism be ten times worse with only 500 years of history. Think historically man, not like an apologist.
Plus, if Protestantism is so bad, why Calvinism and the American founding?
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Erik, by the way, as part of that memory stroll, vd, t brought up Terry pretty early: https://oldlife.org/2013/06/confusing-johns/comment-page-5/#comment-87752
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 10, 2015 at 5:41 pm | Permalink
vd, t, how can Protestantism be ten times worse with only 500 years of history. Think historically man, not like an apologist.
Plus, if Protestantism is so bad, why Calvinism and the American founding?
D. G. Hart
Posted May 10, 2015 at 5:44 pm | Permalink
Erik, by the way, as part of that memory stroll, vd, t brought up Terry pretty early: https://oldlife.org/2013/06/confusing-johns/comment-page-5/#comment-87752
Yes, I found the Terry Gray incident astonishingly bizarre in the 21st century. And you stood by and said nothing, yes?
As for Calvinist resistance theory, I give it its historical due, which you do not, for reasons which apparently have nothing to do with history.
_____
Erik Charter
Posted May 10, 2015 at 5:30 pm | Permalink
Tom,
If Catholics of a certain time period were putting their faith in their leaders to get things right and later we discover that their leaders had things wrong, are we right to feel sympathy for those Catholics who were misled by misguided leaders? Is this putting up with error just a necessary consequence of putting one’s faith in a Church as opposed to putting it in Christ in a more direct, less mediated way?
That’s an impossibly vague argument. Further, the Catholic Church has admitted many mistakes, just not any doctrinal ones.
By contrast, the OPC’s schism from the PCUSA in 1936 also resulted in a repudiation of the 1903 revisions to the Westminster Confessions of Faith–which resulted in the immediate schism of the Bible Presbyterian Church!
http://www.opc.org/GA/constitution.html
You’re dealing with 2 different ballgames here, and whatever the Old Life blog tries to lay on the Catholic Church, it’s 10 times worse in Presbyterianism, and 1000 times worse once you look at the dizzying panoply of “Protestantism,” which has come to have no meaning atall above and beyond “not-Catholic.”
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 10, 2015 at 5:41 pm | Permalink
vd, t, how can Protestantism be ten times worse with only 500 years of history. Think historically man, not like an apologist.
Plus, if Protestantism is so bad, why Calvinism and the American founding?
D. G. Hart
Posted May 10, 2015 at 5:44 pm | Permalink
Erik, by the way, as part of that memory stroll, vd, t brought up Terry pretty early
Ah, trolling your files for chickenspit gotchas, eh? Well done.
Yes, I found the Terry Gray incident astonishingly bizarre in the 21st century. And you stood by and said nothing, yes?
As for Calvinist resistance theory, I give it its historical due, which you do not, for reasons which apparently have nothing to do with history.
_____
Erik Charter
Posted May 10, 2015 at 5:30 pm | Permalink
Tom,
If Catholics of a certain time period were putting their faith in their leaders to get things right and later we discover that their leaders had things wrong, are we right to feel sympathy for those Catholics who were misled by misguided leaders? Is this putting up with error just a necessary consequence of putting one’s faith in a Church as opposed to putting it in Christ in a more direct, less mediated way?
That’s an impossibly vague argument, a million miles away from the ex cathedra dynamic. Further, the Catholic Church has admitted many mistakes, just not any doctrinal ones.
By contrast, the OPC’s schism from the PCUSA in 1936 also resulted in a repudiation of the 1903 revisions to the Westminster Confessions of Faith–which resulted in the immediate schism of the Bible Presbyterian Church!
http://www.opc.org/GA/constitution.html
You’re dealing with 2 different ballgames here, and whatever the Old Life blog tries to lay on the Catholic Church, it’s 10 times worse in Presbyterianism, and 1000 times worse once you look at the dizzying panoply of “Protestantism,” which has come to have no meaning atall above and beyond “not-Catholic.”
Protestantism has PLENTY of “mediation,” Erik. An embarrassment of “mediation,” Erik. A virtual Tower of Babelful!
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Comments are open and time once again, to review the bidding as it were.
TVD, The Veronian Disciple completely misses the point.
Again.
There’s no question that protestantism displays the same kind of inconsistencies that Romanism does, anecdotal or otherwise.
The salient distinction is the claim that Romanism makes to be the one true perfect indefectible and infallible church, far above all others. IOW these kind of inconsistencies are entirely beneath her. Right.
Further, it is rich to hear romanists – Mrs. W is only the latest – talk about John 17 and unity and ignore truth, as if there can be any unity apart from in the truth. When the bar is pretty low to begin with, unity is easy. Attend mass on Christmas, Easter, New Years and ? and it’s all good for those who walk by sight.
But if John 17:17 means anything, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” , when romanism begs the distinctions between Scripture, tradition and the magisterium, then all bets are off and romanism is a slam dunk – if you buy into the suppressed premises . . . contra John 17:17.
The lost apostolic oral traditions and non existent index ex cathedra papal encyclicals guarantee an answer for all questions in all seasons.
Neither does Scripture equip the man of God unto “every good work” 2 Tim. 3:17, even determining the true church while Bryan wants to argue from the bones of the apostles rather from Scripture. Who you gonna believe?
As also noted previously and studiously ignored, Rome does not believe that man’s reason fell in the Fall, i.e. men can be reasoned into Christianity. This is the CTC forte par excellente. “It wouldn’t be reasonable if Christ hadn’t left an infallible interpreter behind when he ascended into heaven”. And that interpreter is the Roman magisterium (filtered of course thru Tom and Called to Confusion), not the Holy Spirit. But again the distinction between the communicable and incommunicable attributes of God is Theol. 101, much more in Adam’s fall, he sinned in all, his reason, will and affections.
As for the critical distinction between the imputed and infused righteousness of Christ, Tvd’s only answer is to shout it down while at the same time it went completely over Mrs. W’s head. She was taught the gospel at one time and appreciates that, but Rome is still the only one true church. IOW the theological parvenus and newbs can’t help but be amusing/annoying at times. They don’t even know the question, never mind the answers, but like to lecture – and on the part of some, hector – us.
(Yeah, we know one ad hom deserves another, but never fear we have another officer in the OPC who’s schtick doesn’t stink to save us. But what do I have to pony up to get somebody to retract their confession?)
Death penalty? We knew that that was discipline, not dogma when the question was asked.
Of course the magistrate only beareth a wooden spoon, Rom 13 to the contrary. Anything else wouldn’t be reasonable.
1500 years? Why did Luther say he learned from his teachers? Why did Rome only harden and turn from the gospel at Trent? What happened at the Reformation when not only the text of Scripture, but the early church fathers were discovered and read contra the glosses of the medieval church? If Rome is the true church that is one thing; if it is the whore prophesied of in Scripture, quite another.
cheers
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Bob S
Posted May 10, 2015 at 6:10 pm | Permalink
And that interpreter is the Roman magisterium (filtered of course thru Tom and Called to Confusion), not the Holy Spirit.
This premise is wrong, rendering the rest nonsense.
And now, I’m going to stop answering my fan mail, fellas, unless Jeff wants a crack. Take Andrew’s advice and listen to The Cookies, esp the studio tracks below the videos. Engineered and produced mostly with these bare hands, with only a modicum of help.
http://squelchers.net/Cookies/Cookies.htm
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I think Tom’s interests have slowly become more theological and not just historical. As I wrote last week, though, I think he’s in way over his head doing Roman Catholic apologetics. Unlike Bryan, he’ll mix it up as opposed to just bobbing & weaving and when you get tied up with seasoned P&R guys you’re going to get bloodied unless you really know your stuff. He’s nowhere near where he needs to be yet, and I don’t mean that as a slam. There’s a reason few have done it well here — Cletus Van Damme has been the best to date. Kenneth is a less-mature version of Tom and the Callers just won’t stick around.
If this all inspires Tom to do more outside reading, though, that’s a good thing.
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Tom – That’s an impossibly vague argument, a million miles away from the ex cathedra dynamic. Further, the Catholic Church has admitted many mistakes, just not any doctrinal ones.
Erik – It wasn’t an argument, just a question. What comfort do you offer to people who put their faith in a church that could turn out to be wrong on important, even life-and-death, matters?
If the Church had put you to death when it had civil authority to do so but then 200 years later said that capital punishment is wrong, what would you say to that man who was put to death if you could offer him comfort? “Oops”?
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@Erik
Welcome back. I enjoy reading your comments here again.
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Tom – By contrast, the OPC’s schism from the PCUSA in 1936 also resulted in a repudiation of the 1903 revisions to the Westminster Confessions of Faith–which resulted in the immediate schism of the Bible Presbyterian Church!
Erik – By seeing “schism” as the ultimate evil you reveal your prejudices, you don’t necessarily establish that it is the ultimate evil. Can you make the case that schism is the worst thing that can happen in the Christian church? In particular, that tolerating error (you’ve conceded that the Roman Catholic church has been in error many times) is preferable to schism?
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sdb,
Thanks. It’s costing me $1000 but after Friday’s events I feel pretty good about coming back. We’ll see how it goes.
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Where is the Biblical warrant for schism?
Except for that slip in talking about me in the third person, do what you must [but for Wales, Richard? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLIsqYKDqY8%5D, I appreciate the principled replies here. But again, you’re avoiding your half of the discussion. Where is the Biblical warrant for schism? And schism upon schism? How does that square with the “catholic” in the Nicene Creed without bending the meaning of “catholic” and “church” to absurdity? You just can’t sit behind the duck blind taking shots, and neither do you need my input to make your case.
As for the papal states executions, asked and answered. The new teachings are offered as a better way through Christ–in no small part for the living more than the dead–and natural law is subject to empirical proof. In the current age, it appears that capital punishment has little or no deterrent value. But if societal circumstances change, or if it could be proven that capital punishment does indeed save lives, then the “self-defense” argument per natural law is back on.
If it’s OK, I’m gonna leave the piranha tank now. Lunch is over. Do what you do when i’m not around, feed on each other. Erik’s back! Yum!
;-P
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I like to think I had a hand in bringing Erik back, I showed him how this site’s ratings were slipping.
Erik, maybe we can all pitch in for that $1k payoff. I’ll try and start a petition. Also am glad you are back, for my part.
At least it wasn’t 2k 😎
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Erik, you scared TVD off. Again, great to have you back 😛
Enough with the rabies theologorum:
Enjoy your cookies Tom. Always a pleasure.
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Some things never change.
The troll still can’t tell the difference between separation and schism.
Luther, by the way, was excommunicated and didn’t leave on his own.
But hey, ‘name it and claim it’ works for Bryan, so why not for our resident skeptic.
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Andrew,
Thanks, but I’ve got it. It goes to a good cause.
Tom,
Paul’s epistles point much more towards what a true church and true Christians look like as opposed to instructing people to remain in any particular institutional manifestation of the church (and he knew nothing of one true church led by the Bishop of Rome). You have to make extrabiblical arguments to establish that.
So I guess if you want me to provide “biblical warrant for schism” you first have to provide clear biblical warrant from what you tell me I can’t separate from — The Roman Catholic Church.
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Tom,
I’ll let you resume your discussion with Jeff on capital punishment. I think he’s waiting for some responses from you before continuing.
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Well, no, I was enjoying Mother’s Day.
Tom, I think there could be no end to discussion, so I will leave off with two questions. Given your sign-off, I won’t feel slighted if you don’t reply. Or if you do, then we can take this up another time.
I do appreciate that you acknowledge that there is a change from Benedict to Francis. I agree with you that the ground of that change is probably the recognition that deterrence isn’t what we thought it was.
Questions:
(1) Given that Francis is your sacramental authority, does it make a difference whether he is speaking ex cathedra or not? In the quoted document, he is speaking authoritatively as the head of the RC church. How do you disagree with him without being your own “personal pope”? Without being a “cafeteria Catholic”?
This is not a gotcha question, but something I’ve never been able to understand for Catholics who disagree with the current pope on anything.
I can understand disagreeing with previous popes, if the current pope overturns his non-ex-cathedral pronouncements. One authority trumps another.
But I cannot understand Tom van D. saying “Francis could be wrong” without placing his own understanding above that of Francis. It would seem to me, given the Catholic view of authority, that the current pope must be taken to be “practically infallible” in that his judgment is authoritative.
So how do you understand that situation?
(2) Why do you view schism as a one-sided sin? When two people divorce, they both divorce. When Roman Catholics and Protestants split, the Protestants are in schism? That makes no sense to me.
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@EC – That sounds like a pretty steep re-entry fee. Don’t get any ideas for the fantasy football league next fall.
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vd, t, “As for Calvinist resistance theory, I give it its historical due, which you do not, for reasons which apparently have nothing to do with history.”
That’s not much gratitude for a theory that gives you life on another blog.
Plus, you leave out that I give Roman Catholics credit for resistance theory before Protestants ever came along.
But if you acknowledged that, you wouldn’t be an apologist for David Barton.
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vd, t, “Where is the Biblical warrant for schism?”
Biblical warrant? For the immaculate conception? For papal infallibility? For the supremacy of Rome?
At least Protestants try to teach the Bible.
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Jeff, you forgot to ask from the EO side of things, why isn’t Rome schismatic (read 1054)?
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 10, 2015 at 8:30 pm | Permalink
Well, no, I was enjoying Mother’s Day.
Tom, I think there could be no end to discussion, so I will leave off with two questions. Given your sign-off, I won’t feel slighted if you don’t reply. Or if you do, then we can take this up another time.
I do appreciate that you acknowledge that there is a change from Benedict to Francis. I agree with you that the ground of that change is probably the recognition that deterrence isn’t what we thought it was.
Questions:
(1) Given that Francis is your sacramental authority, does it make a difference whether he is speaking ex cathedra or not?
Yes. Because “sacramental authority” lacks a necessary rigor for this discussion: It applies to administering the sacraments. That is not applicable here in a discussion of capital punishment. Unfortunately, these discussions often derail on such rhetorical imprecisions.
And yes, there seems to be an unbridgeable gap between Protestants using ex cathedra</i infallibility against Catholicism and its actual application in Catholicism. All I can say is that Francis is not speaking infallibly here: Catholicis may differ without being subject to excommunication.
As for his difference with Benedict, I think it’s more one of degree and of emphasis, as with most of the outside world’s evaluations of Francis’s “radicalism.”
http://www.philstar.com/world/2015/05/10/1453264/vatican-cardinal-sees-no-change-family-teachings-synod
In the quoted document, he is speaking authoritatively as the head of the RC church. How do you disagree with him without being your own “personal pope”? Without being a “cafeteria Catholic”?
This is not a gotcha question, but something I’ve never been able to understand for Catholics who disagree with the current pope on anything.
I can understand disagreeing with previous popes, if the current pope overturns his non-ex-cathedral pronouncements. One authority trumps another.
But I cannot understand Tom van D. saying “Francis could be wrong” without placing his own understanding above that of Francis. It would seem to me, given the Catholic view of authority, that the current pope must be taken to be “practically infallible” in that his judgment is authoritative.
Again, “practically infallible” lacks the necessary rigor. “A little bit pregnant.”
But I believe the faithful Catholic is urged to take the counsel of the pope and the bishops very seriously, and have good reasons for differing with their normative teachings.
(2) Why do you view schism as a one-sided sin? When two people divorce, they both divorce. When Roman Catholics and Protestants split, the Protestants are in schism? That makes no sense to me.
Catholicism also forbids divorce. You sort of walked into that one. 😉
Again, the Biblical warrant for schism remains wanting–esp for sola scripturists! I did enjoy Andrew’s reference to Philipp Melanchthon, who vainly tried to make the Reformation ‘catholic,’ as in internally universal and coherent. Had he succeeded, it would have been a more valid argument that “Protestantism” is the true Christianity, but as we saw, the rabies took over.
As always, thx for the courteous reply. Back to the Clippers game. After weathering all that stupid Hack-a-DJ stuff, the Clips just took the lead.
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vd, t, imagine the Eastern Orthodox looking back from 1054 and saying that Western Christianity consists of 33,001 sects.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 10, 2015 at 9:10 pm | Permalink
vd, t, “Where is the Biblical warrant for schism?”
Biblical warrant? For the immaculate conception? For papal infallibility? For the supremacy of Rome?
At least Protestants try to teach the Bible.
Catholicism doesn’t do sola scriptura, silly. It’s not even in the Bible, anyway. Luther made it up.
But since “Protestantism” is sola scriptura [at least in theory, albeit not in practice], it’s not unreasonable to ask the Biblical warrant for your uncountable schisms. Your own standards, and none other.
Something went wrong.
D. G. Hart
Posted May 10, 2015 at 9:12 pm | Permalink
Jeff, you forgot to ask from the EO side of things, why isn’t Rome schismatic (read 1054)?
If there is a substantive difference between schism and ‘separation,’ 1054 is it. In 1995, Pope John Paul and Patriarch Bartholomew I “concelebrated” the Eucharist together.
Now, either you’re ignorant of the theology or pretend to be ignorant of it for the sake of “winning,” I can never tell with you. But the point is that the Pope wouldn’t do that even with a Lutheran or an Anglican. Rome recognizes Constantinople’s “sacramental authority,” its “apostolic succession.”
The Eastern Orthodox are Catholic and they are catholic. The sacraments, the doctrinal traditions, the priesthood–all licit. The same Eucharist, the same Real Presence. If Rome and Constantinople are good with it, it’s none of Geneva’s business. You signed out of “sacramental authority” long long ago.
It’s you guys who are hung up on hair-splitting doctrine, since you discarded the Catholic sacraments. But Catholicism, as it understands itself, is about the Eucharist, not the Immaculate Conception. You cannot understand it, let alone judge it, by your own lights. But Rome and Constantinople are the same catholic church in a way that you are not, even with your fellow Presbyterians.
[I reply to some of your drive-bys for the sake of the lurkers and the chance to set the record straight for them. We’re not having an actual conversation, by your choice. At the moment, the Rockets are doing the Hack-a-Shaq thing again, which means I can be listening in the next room and not miss anything.]
Clips 60-54 at halftime. Cool.
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Happy Mothers’ Day!
TVD:
And yes, there seems to be an unbridgeable gap between Protestants using ex cathedra>>>>
Well, I missed a lot of discussion. I was gonna’ mention that, and the fact that the catechism has not been changed nor has what John Paul II said in 1995 in his Evangelium Vitae.
Will Francis make an ex cathedra pronouncement on capital punishment? Not likely.
So, Catholics are free to be either pro death penalty in the very rare case that it might be the only reasonable option, or to push for the abolishment of the death penalty altogether. There is no prohibition on pushing for its abolishment, nor is it immoral to be for it in very rare cases.
In either case, Francis has taken a decidedly pro life stance all around. The image of God demonstrated in every human being, even the most vile, is honored.
I would ask people to keep in mind the fact that Francis is from a country where the death penalty was unjustly applied to thousands of dissidents – many of them high school and college students – in his own country back in the ‘70s.
Also, numerous Christians have been sentenced to death under blasphemy laws, and some have been executed. I think it would be good to look at the bigger picture of what is happening worldwide.
Besides, there is ample provision given for self defense as well as for law enforcement officers to use lethal force when and if necessary for the protection of society.
Even if people think that Francis’ statements prove that the Church does change its mind and therefore her claim to infallibility is the height of arrogance, Francis’ arguments are thoughtful and should cause serious discussion on the subject.
Remember, too, that there are times God has changed His mind, but no one would think of calling Him fallible or inconsistent. Sometimes there are good reasons to change, even for God.
I am not sure why we are supposed to conclude that “Francis changed his mind, therefore the call to communion is confusing, invalid and therefore, useless” – which is the message I’m picking up with this little detour into the Church’s teaching on capital punishment.
TVD:
Again, the Biblical warrant for schism remains wanting–esp for sola scripturists! >>>>>
Any takers on this?
Have a good rest of the evening. I am going to take some allergy medicine and call it a day. Love those flowers I got for Mothers’ Day, butI prefer breathing.
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Visit here:
http://opc.org/qa_about.html
And ask them,
If you dont like what you hear in blogs. A lot of us here work for a living, can’t answer every question always and all the time.
Take care.
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The party line:
vd, t, when did you become Catholic Answers? Way back when you told me to keep theology out of history. You don’t think you’re a little biased (or do a really good impersonation of Bryan, except that you don’t go to church)?
Of course, John Paul II, on your own teaching, could have been wrong (fallible) if he concelebrated the sacrament. Some say they only jointly led the readings but not the celebration of mass.
But why should I believe you and not this?
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TVD – both prots and EOs are in “partial communion” with Rome. Neither are supposed to be allowed to their table. EOs are forbidden from taking RC mass, and vice versa. Note that there has been significant reapproachment talks among Lutherans and Anglicans with Rome. I’m not sure they are all that further from full communion than the EOs. Marriage for all three is a major deal breaker with Rome though. Essentially EOs, Anglicans, and Lutherans allow licit remarriage after divorce at least in certain situations. Not so with Rome.
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I’ve outlined the biblical case for Sola Scriptura here several times. It rests in the example of Jesus’s use of the OT in his interaction with the religious authorities of his day. The “church” could err, but it still demanded obedience. The “church” could be corrected with scripture, and when the “church” tradition deviated from scripture, the tradition was to be judged in light of scripture.
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The justification for separating is not explicitly spelled out in scripture, but a few items worth considering:
Christ did not condemn the Essenes and Pharisees for their separation from one another (or even other schools). Paul rejoiced over those spreading the gospel even though they did so with the wrong motives. While these guys may have been in a bad place, the validity of what they were doing wasn’t seen as problematic. John, in Revelation, condemned several churches that had fallen away suggesting that one would be justified in separating from such a church. There is a difference between a schism and a separation. Those from whom we are separated are still welcome to our table even if we have distinctives that make organizational separation a good option (why don’t the Dominicans, Jesuits, etc… all unify into one group?). Then there are those groups that cease to be valid churches – this is a much more serious departure from the gospel.
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@webfoot
You’ve noted something along the lines of, there was no legit church for 1500 years, then boom! the reformation. Note that the reformers have never taught that the church ever ceased to exist on Earth, that there is a perfect church, or that Rome/EOs ever got everything wrong. This is spelled out explicitly in both the Belgic and Westminster confessions.
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I don’t think that is quite right. Even if no Pope ever makes an ex cathedra pronouncement, or the Bishops and Pope speak in unison on this topic, RCs are required to religious submit their intellect and will to the Pope’s (or other Bishop’s) teaching. While this may be fallible, it is a very high bar. Contradictions (historical and contemporary) here are problematic. If they pile up too much, one might conclude that it is rather cruel to be required to assent to one who is regularly wrong.
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So, the reason that you, D.G. Hart, cannot accept the call to communion are numerous. In fact, the mere invitation sets off your traditional, anti-Catholicism defenses. Nothing will change that.
1. According to your Reformed tradition, Catholic theology needs to be opposed. It’s what you guys do.
2. You, brother Hart, are an officer of the OPC and you have taken a vow to uphold these standards.:
“Officers in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church take a vow to “sincerely receive and adopt” these confessional documents “as containing the system of doctrine taught in the Holy Scriptures.””
http://www.opc.org/confessions.html
Those documents include a fatal flaw I contend. They affirm total depravity. They also respect individual conscience. Now, the OPC and other Reformed groups they are in communion with have not gone down the drain yet. However, they are the exception rather than the rule. Most groups who at one time held to these same standards have now apostatized.
I sincerely hope for better things for the OPC.
3. Officially, the OPC does not commune with anyone outside the Reformed tradition. Evangelicals and even Reformed Baptists are also excluded, as are Reformed groups like St Andrews in Moscow, ID I presume. So, it makes sense within that very narrow idealogical framework that you guys want nothing to do with Catholics who, at one time, were part of the OPC. They must be anathema to you.
So, there is no way that you, D.G. Hart, would even hear a call to communion. Given your background, I understand.
However, none of that can be justified by sola scriptura or solus christus. It’s all about your traditions, really.
Like it or not, my tradition teaches me, and my own conscience agrees that you are my brother in Christ. I get why you feel a need to try to take Catholics down a notch or two. I don’t agree, but I get it. It’s what Protestants do.
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Me too. Thanks for the sentiment. If you want something to read:
Mrs. Webfoot, you need a little logic from Bryan and the Jasons.
If I am a brother in Christ, then that’s why I don’t accept the call. Why do I need to?
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Remember, too, that there are times God has changed His mind, but no one would think of calling Him fallible or inconsistent. Sometimes there are good reasons to change, even for God.
This is flippin hilarious in context of the discussion of the death penalty. Are we to suppose that since Rome says the pope is the vicar of Christ that if Francis changes Roman discipline – not doctrine – vis a vis capital punishment that God changes his mind and it is therefore OK?
Ask Bryan what fallacy of the missing middle term is.
According to your Reformed tradition, Catholic theology needs to be opposed. It’s what you guys do.
So what else is new? If Rome is wrong and the reformed are right, we’re supposed to give you a bye just because?
Most groups who at one time held to these same standards have now apostatized.
Snicker. That’s what the Reformation was all about, Mrs. W. The medieval uncatholic Roman church apostasized from the historic Christian faith in putting the church’s magisterium and pope over Scripture, the saints and Mary over Jesus by putting them alongside Jesus, the sacrifice of the mass over Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary etc. etc.
However, none of that can be justified by sola scriptura or solus christus. It’s all about your traditions, really.
Channel Thomas the troll much? Assertions not arguments? (Like the scandal of prot division is a good enough reason to swallow Roman idolatry and apostasy whole. But you gotta love the prattling about prot nominalism as the bugaboo and root of all evil, while at the same time boast is made of Rome’s nominal unity. Why the T is a papist and he doesn’t even attend any of the five holy day masses he’s supposed to to keep his membership current. IOW being a SeparBrethren is the only way to go to maintain your sanity, credibility and integrity. )
I know it hurts people’s feelings when they and their nonarguments don’t get the respect they think they deserve as newb members and apologists for the “only true church”, but hey the Mormons, JWs and the SDA feel the same way.
IOW get used to feeling like what even minority P&R folks feel like.
Not to be snarky, but really.
Yeah, it’s a combox, but can we get up to speed?
If somebody just paid a $1000 buckaroos to reinsinuate themselves into the mix, like it or not, the bar has been raised.
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sdb:
@webfoot
You’ve noted something along the lines of, there was no legit church for 1500 years, then boom! the reformation. Note that the reformers have never taught that the church ever ceased to exist on Earth, that there is a perfect church, or that Rome/EOs ever got everything wrong. This is spelled out explicitly in both the Belgic and Westminster confessions.>>>>>
Hi, sdb,
Feel free to go back and check on what I said, but here is what I remember saying. 🙂 Thanks for your comments, BTW. Very interesting, and I hope to go back and read yours with greater attention.
AB, Jeff, Tom, and others, the same goes for you – even you, Brother Hart. I’m getting a feel for where you are coming from and why. Anyway…
1. I said something about Protestants cherry picking Church history. I would add theology, and traditions. Do you see what I mean? The Reformed movement is the new kid on the block, trying to prove that it is really the guardian of the whole counsel of God.
2. … and, yes, Francis has set a very high bar on the subject of capital punishment. It is the very highest pro life bar yet as well. It has made me rethink my views on capital punishment.
Even so, it is not official dogma.
3.sdb said:
The justification for separating is not explicitly spelled out in scripture, but a few items worth considering:
Christ did not condemn the Essenes and Pharisees for their separation from one another (or even other schools). <<<<<
Neither were part of the Church He later established. Take a look at the division of the 12 tribes to see what a disaster it is for God’s people to separate. In the New Jerusalem, there is no separation. It should be our aim here on this earth as well.
sdb:
Paul rejoiced over those spreading the gospel even though they did so with the wrong motives. While these guys may have been in a bad place, the validity of what they were doing wasn’t seen as problematic. <<<<<
As far as I understand, the Church’s position – esp. with Francis – is that they are happy that people come to Christ, but hope for the healing of old wounds of separation.
There is nothing in the book of Philippians that would indicate that Paul though division was a good thing. Preaching the Gospel no matter why is good. In fact, why think that the ones preaching the Gospel had formed their own, new denomination?
sdb:
John, in Revelation, condemned several churches that had fallen away suggesting that one would be justified in separating from such a church. <<<<
Could you be more specific? Jesus never said that those in the 7 churches should divide those churches.He meant for them to repent and apply church discipline, not divide.
sdb:
There is a difference between a schism and a separation. Those from whom we are separated are still welcome to our table even if we have distinctives that make organizational separation a good option (why don’t the Dominicans, Jesuits, etc… all unify into one group?). Then there are those groups that cease to be valid churches – this is a much more serious departure from the gospel.<<<<
In Scripture, those who were not really of the body of Christ were the ones who would leave or keep others out, as per the epistles of John.
As far as the different movements within Catholicism, they are all united in one group. It’s called the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You know, like the United States. Each state has its own distinctive, but all are united under one constitution of the United States.
Take care, and follow Jesus.
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@Webfoot
Here are the lines I was responding to. Perhaps they are TVDs and not yours though. I thought he was quoting you, but I could be wrong.
Whatever their origin, the sentiment contained in these comments is contradicted by both the Belgic and Westminster confessions. The Reformed view is that the church is always a mixture of truth and error, but has always and will continue to persist. Not everything RCs believe is wrong (even post-reformation), but they are tragically wrong about a number of very important things…
One more item about an earlier comment about the RCs leaving the church to be spiritual but not religious… you noted that they were leaving Christianity, not just the church like we prots. This is contradicted by the polling. Most of them still considered themselves Christian. For the most part, their problem wasn’t with what they perceived to be Christianity per se, but rather with the behavior of the hierarchy (the oft heard complaint about organized religion). I still don’t see how this is fundamentally different from what has happened to protestants. Whether 1million leave to form 10 micro denominations of 100k each or 1million nano denominations of one seems like an incidental detail in someways (the later perhaps more tragic in practice).
I’m pressed for time now, so I’ll check back after some deadlines pass after Wednesday and see if this thread is still alive. Fun conversation…
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I understand, D.G. Hart. Still, the call to communion is an option.
Bob S., I’m sure you have some arguments buried in your comments somewhere, but anything that starts out “This is flipping’ hilarious” makes me laugh. Later I may be in the mood to sift through your comments for something that I find more compelling.
Meanwhile, take care and God bless us, every one.
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sdb, all kinds of people who reject the Trinity and the Incarnation still call themselves Christians. Those who say they are spiritual, but leave their churches – it happens with Protestants and Evangelicals as well as you pointed out – are generally caught up in New Age practices or Eastern religions.
How many of them believe in reincarnation, for example? It is the word “spiritual” that is the key. They may talk about the hierarchy, but those who leave and are still practicing some kind of spirituality have other reasons. The bad behavior of those in authority is likely not the main reason if they are “spiritual” but not Catholic – or Baptist, or Methodist, or Presbyterian, etc.
Yes, people leave churches all the time and for different reasons. Most leave because they no longer believe what the church teaches.
Why is it important even to talk about the size of a denomination or the size of the Catholic Church? I will beat this drum again, and probably not for the last time, either. 🙂 The Catholic Church has been through numerous crises in her long history. She is still here. Not only here, but in many ways, strong and growing. In many places in the world, she is back on message – the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
In fact, all other churches trace their lineage back to her, even the Eastern Orthodox. She is the only Church that can honestly extend the invitation to other Christian groups to come back Home. If not all the way, at least to lay down arms and all focus on the task of preaching Jesus Christ.
The fact that she recognizes all baptisms in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as Christian baptism is quite telling. There are no prohibitions, either, for Catholics to participate with non-Catholic Christian groups. The only rule has to do with receiving communion in other churches.
She is truly catholic. Now, Reformed churches are supposed to accept the Nicene Creed. What do they mean as the catholic church? If it is only those individual believers who are spiritually united in Christ, then why are there Reformed organizations and churches that maintain their own identities and who keep themselves quite separate from groups who are not just like them?
How do groups like the OPC and the Reformed groups they are in communion with avoid making the claim to being the only true church? I think that such a claim is implicit at the very least.
Anyway, I’m done for the day. 🙂
Thanks for the dialogue. Take care.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 11, 2015 at 6:44 am | Permalink
vd, t, when did you become Catholic Answers? Way back when you told me to keep theology out of history. You don’t think you’re a little biased (or do a really good impersonation of Bryan, except that you don’t go to church)?
Of course, John Paul II, on your own teaching, could have been wrong (fallible) if he concelebrated the sacrament. Some say they only jointly led the readings but not the celebration of mass.
But why should I believe you and not this?
Conclusion
We have established and documented the follow facts:
o That the Church has directly and clearly taught the Eastern Schismatics cannot be saved, ever since they went into schism, and indeed warned them that that would be the case centuries before they left;
o That it is absolutely certain that the Eastern Schismatics, like all others, cannot be saved unless they become Faithful Catholics subject to the Roman pontiff: that has been infallibly defined by Pope Boniface VIII in the papal Bull Unam Sanctam;
o That the Church has always taught that no one can be saved outside of the obedience of the Roman Pontiff;
o That the Eastern Schismatics are schismatics and heretics;
o That the Church has always believed and professed that all who do not submit to the Roman Pontiff are schismatics;
o That it is absolutely certain that the Eastern Schismatics cannot be saved unless they leave off their schism and submit to the Our Holy Father the Pope: it has been infallibly defined by Pope Eugene IV at the Council of Florence;
o That the Church has always believed and professed that no schismatics may be saved.
o That it is absolutely certain that the sacraments cannot profit the Eastern Schismatics unto salvation, or any schismatics, unless they first repent of their schism and submit to the Pope: that has also been infallibly defined by Pope Eugene IV;
o That the Church has always believe and professed that the sacraments cannot profit any schismatic, or any one outside of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
All Catholics are obliged to believe and to profess that the Eastern Schismatics, the falsely-called “Orthodox”, are all damned unless they submit to the Roman Pontiff, leave off their schism, and become Faithful Catholics, believing all that the Holy Catholic Church teaches: or else lose their own salvation.
Athanasian Creed circa A. D. 420, and always professed by the Church: “Whoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith, which unless each one preserves whole and inviolate, without doubt he will perish everlastingly. […] This is the Catholic faith, which unless each one believes faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
Pope Benedict XV, A. D. 1914-1922: “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)
Shame, shame, Dr. Historian, and very shoddy work offering opinionated secondary sources–and a imprimatur-less website at that–to try to make your case.
Your search for error is not a search for truth, and you still don’t even have a thesis, unless it’s that if you can find one contradiction in 2000 years of Catholicism, that makes your version of Christianity the true one.
The EOs ARE schismatics and heretics, though, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad persons. At least they have the Eucharist, a 2000-yr-old tradition which your religion pitched when it reinvented Christianity from scratch. As it stands, despite Melanchthon’s best ecumenical efforts, Lutheranism and Anglicanism still remain closer to Catholicism than they do to Calvinism, which is off in its own alternate Christian universe.
As for me becoming a sort of “Catholic Answers,” I owe it all to you, and double-checking your painful misrepresentations of Catholic theology. As Fulton Sheen put it,
“Way back when you told me to keep theology out of history.”
I doubt you remember what I said, and your paraphrases are unjust. I might have been suggesting that as a historian, shouldn’t give short shrift to Calvinist resistance theory* even if it’s in total opposition to your own “radical” Two Kingdoms theology, in which you have invested much of your career as a “professional” Protestant.
I still think that.
_________________________________________________
*http://www.acton.org/pub/religion-liberty/volume-7-number-4/reformation-roots-social-contract
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Tom,
.At least they have the Eucharist, a 2000-yr-old tradition which your religion pitched when it reinvented Christianity from scratch.
Last I checked, the Westminster Confession includes the Eucharist as one of the two sacraments Christ instituted. Sure, we don’t believe we’re offering up Christ again and again and again. We kinda like what the Bible says about the one sacrifice of Christ being enough. Course, we don’t usually call it the Eucharist. Probably because we don’t want to confuse the nominal RCs who might show up and darken our doors instead of staying home while still proclaiming themselves faithful RCs.
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Mrs. W:
In fact, all other churches trace their lineage back to her, even the Eastern Orthodox. She is the only Church that can honestly extend the invitation to other Christian groups to come back Home. If not all the way, at least to lay down arms and all focus on the task of preaching Jesus Christ.
That’s a sales pitch too far, I’m afraid.
For one thing, non-Catholic churches trace their lineage back to Palestine and not Rome, to Jesus or back even to Abraham, but not to Peter.
For another, when was the last time you heard an EOer say, “We trace our origins back to you”? I’ll bet 20 quatloos that happened … never. The EO is pretty definite that the origination is the other way round: Rome schismed from the true church, they say.
So it would be accurate to say that Catholics trace the lineage of othet churches back to the RC, but not that other churches trace their own lineage back to the RC.
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Robert
Posted May 11, 2015 at 9:41 pm | Permalink
Tom,
.At least they have the Eucharist, a 2000-yr-old tradition which your religion pitched when it reinvented Christianity from scratch.
Last I checked, the Westminster Confession includes the Eucharist as one of the two sacraments Christ instituted. Sure, we don’t believe we’re offering up Christ again and again and again. We kinda like what the Bible says about the one sacrifice of Christ being enough. Course, we don’t usually call it the Eucharist. Probably because we don’t want to confuse the nominal RCs who might show up and darken our doors instead of staying home while still proclaiming themselves faithful RCs.
Nice cheap shot at the end there, Robert. But you should know that I decline to discuss my personal religious life at this here “theological society” for precisely that reason. Mt 7:6.
You know nothing about me.
As for the rest, about the Eucharist and its theological debasement, and about how the Westminster Confession of Faith came to be, that’s Protestantism’s problem.
http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/wcf-anglicanism-79658/
It did not result in ecclesiastical unity, in any semblance of catholicism, small “c.”
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Jeff Cagle:
For another, when was the last time you heard an EOer say, “We trace our origins back to you”? I’ll bet 20 quatloos that happened … never. The EO is pretty definite that the origination is the other way round: Rome schismed from the true church, they say.<<<<
Hi, Jeff,
The Eastern Orthodox church claims to be the one true church. However, it really is the eastern church that split away from the western church. Even now, the Orthodox church accepts the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. For them, it is only a primacy of honor among the bishops of the world, but not of authority. * This is problematic for the Orthodox church because of the special position of authority given to Peter by Jesus Christ Himself.
Peter was given the keys of the kingdom. From earliest times, this was understood that he had a special place of authority, one that was passed down in apostolic succession to the bishop of Rome.
Yes, I know you do not believe that part, but the eastern church used to accept this until the 11th century. That is when the split happened, when the eastern church separated from the western. Who moved, then?
No, that in itself does not prove that either of them have a claim to being the true church.
I think that Rome has the stronger arguments that it was the eastern church that left, and they stayed where they are. The question now is how that rift can be mended. Anyway, that is why I said what I did. Rome is the one that can extend the invitation to return Home and have that invitation make sense.
*http://www.catholic.com/tracts/eastern-orthodoxy
See also:
http://www.hprweb.com/2012/01/confronting-the-claim-of-eastern-orthodoxy-to-be-the-true-church/
Jeff:
For one thing, non-Catholic churches trace their lineage back to Palestine and not Rome, to Jesus or back even to Abraham, but not to Peter.<<<<<
So, who did Jesus entrust His Church to? The apostles, and then those who would follow after them. They were to teach faithful men who would teach others also. How else would the truth of the Gospel be passed down from generation to generation if not through faithful men?
He doesn’t do it through direct revelation to each individual. Who are the guardians of the truth of the Gospel? Conservative Reformed groups believe themselves to be those guardians of the faith.
Now, you will not agree with me or with the arguments presented, but I think that as far as who split from whom, the Catholic Church’s arguments that she is the original are compelling. Orthodox, not so much. Protestant, not very much at all.
Is it shocking that someone would actually believe this to be true? Heck, I shock myself. It’s just that I can no longer explain let alone justify all the divisions within Protestantism. That really makes no sense put in the context of John 17. Neither would I join a Church that teaches that all Christians outside her care are going to hell because they are not real Christians.
The Catholic Church’s position makes sense, and the desire to see the Church whole I believe is Christlike. Don’t all Christians believe that the eternal kingdom is not divided? We all pray the Lord’s Prayer after all.
Anyway, …
Kind regards,
Mrs. Webfoot
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Never fear, Tom we got it. Rome is all about walking by sight, not faith. Cool. You and Mrs. W can even hold hands if you like along with all the other papists that show up here.
But answer the question? Never.
If Rome apostasized from the gospel, true believers are free to leave. That what results doesn’t resemble the outward lowest common denominator nominal unity of Rome is not necessarily an argument that those who separated from Rome are wrong.
Yeah, we know you like to assume all kinds of things, just like Bryan, but if you are going to nominally appeal to our private judgement and try to persuade us to join up, we are going to use our PJ just like the Bereans whom Paul commends and Rome condemns.
Gal. 1:8,9 is clear. Those who preach another gospel are accursed.
Why we’re supposed to stick around and play footsie then with Rome ain’t in the picture.
Remember.
You and Mrs. W can’t distinguish between infusion and imputation.
Neither can either of you distinguish between schism and separation.
Yet we are supposed to pretend you are our superiors and we are the weaker separated brethren, whom you are over here to lecture.
Well thanks, but the Reformation on the basis of Scripture alone (2 Tim. 3:17) was a separation from the deformed church of Rome on doctrine, worship and government. True the Reformation doesn’t look like Rome, but if it did, that would be a problem.
cheers
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Jeff:
Sure, we don’t believe we’re offering up Christ again and again and again. We kinda like what the Bible says about the one sacrifice of Christ being enough. <<<<<
Here is what the catechism says. Read it carefully, since you have been misinformed about what the Church actually teaches.
Focus on the words “it makes present the ONE sacrifice of Christ."
"The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm
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Oops! That last comment had a quote from Robert, not Jeff. My bad.
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vd, t, “The EOs ARE schismatics and heretics, though, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad persons.”
Then why did you bring up JPII concelebrating the Mass with Patriarchate Bartholomew? Should popes really co-officiate at Mass with schismatics and heretics?
On resistance theory, I was trying to give long shrift to Roman Catholic resistance theory. Who’s the hater?
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Mrs. Webfoot, do you know you come across like a born-again Protestant? Just sayin’. Act like you’ve found it for a while.
And then after you watch this video (from your own University of Notre Dame), drink two quarts of kool aid and get back to us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC1PxAdbFUc
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mrs. W., that’s not what your church always taught:
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@ DGH: The BC and CCC both fail to ask and answer the two most interesting questions:
365.1 Q: If Jesus said the first mass before He was betrayed, how is it that His body and blood were present in sacrifice before He was sacrificed?
A: That is great mystery.
365.2 Q: If Jesus’ body is one of His human attributes, why can its substance be in multiple places at once, since the human attributes do not commingle with the divine according to the creed?
A: This also is a great mystery.
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Q: What does TVD does do on Sunday morning?
A: This also is a great mystery.
Q: What does TVD does really think of Pope Francis?
A: This also is a great mystery.
Q: Does TVD have anything more than rhetorical skin in the game?
A: This also is a great mystery.
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Mrs. Webfoot,
Heck, I shock myself. It’s just that I can no longer explain let alone justify all the divisions within Protestantism.
How do you justify all the divisions within Roman Catholicism? Pro-lifers vs. Pro-choicers, with RCs overwhelmingly voting for the latter. Thomists vs. Molinists. Traditionalists vs. liberals. Conciliarists vs. papal authority centrists.
Neither would I join a Church that teaches that all Christians outside her care are going to hell because they are not real Christians.
Well the OPC doesn’t teach that, and neither does the PCA. So your problem with the Reformed is what, exactly?
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So, who did Jesus entrust His Church to? The apostles, and then those who would follow after them. They were to teach faithful men who would teach others also. How else would the truth of the Gospel be passed down from generation to generation if not through faithful men?
She whose feet are webbed, like I always say, you can trace your Catholic lineage from Francis back to Peter and have all the bare apostolic succession you please. But that just isn’t everything. If somewhere along the way the words whispered by Jesus to Peter to Francis got derailed then all you have is the Bible to sort it out. Unless you really believe that’s simply impossible. But haven’t you ever played Chinese Whispers? It’s a simple children’s game that demonstrates human beings are quite fallible and what goes into one ear comes out another’s mouth sounding similar but substantively different. I know, the Holy Spirit guarantees certain men will never get it wrong. Eh. Prots really do believe the Spirit guides his church into all truth, etc. It’s this idea that men have to be infallible to make that happen that is impossible to swallow. The word of God is the only infallible source, and the Spirit uses it to guide fallible men into all truth. Why is this so hard?
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Jeff, you’re so divisive.
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James White and Mitch Pacwa discussed the issue of the Mass constituting a continual resacrifice of Christ in their 2003 debate on the RC priesthood. Pacwa was very clear about what “the Church actually teaches.” Injecting capitals into a quote is generally bad form but if you must, you might consider instead “it MAKES PRESENT the one sacrifice.”
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Steve, ( Yes, I’m back but not to stay)
Mrs. Webfoot can hold her own, but I would like to interject because I hope to help make clear what infallibility means. If the confessions do spell out what is true about this or that, then the doctrine(teaching) is inerrant, even if the whole of the confessions are not. Now if you speak that inerrant truth, say to your unbelieving neighbor, then the Holy Spirit has used you as a vehicle and what you spoke is infallibly spoken even if the unbelieving neighbor does not believe it.
Now I have a question for you. When you hear a pastor preach and when you read your confessions, do you ever find fault/error? Given your admission that the confessions and the teaching of men can fail and that no single church is protected by the Spirit who promised to lead into all truth, how can you know that what you read from the confessions are in fact true and necessarily derived from scripture? Further, if you heard error, by what authority can you correct your pastor? Wouldn’t it be biblical authority that you exercised against your pastor who has supposedly received authority per the scriptures to exercise authority over others? The idea of biblical authority breaks down when a confession or pastor errs right? What if every authoritative teaching gets something wrong; where does someone go to church if every church officially teaches error? What I’m really asking you, and anyone reading, is what do you do when there is a church outside of Protestantism who seems to have more truth? Do you ask yourself how do you know it is in fact truth that you have actually been introduced to and risk possibly denying God’s revealing power by digging in your heals just because you happen to have been raised in a faith community that is prejudice against the other? The other option is to believe that God has actually been guiding the church that claims apostolic teaching/tradition, and that it is therefore highly probable that the scriptures you have been taught are ” the RCC’s narrow and twisted interpretation used to support its power grabbing authority” in reality does support what she claims. I mean, if you must for no other reason than “it cannot be true” deny that Matthew 16:18( and other scriptures could plausibly support a Petrine ministry), then that’s fine, but it’s glaringly unprincipled.
To push a little harder in order to get honest feedback that is scripturally principled and not just anti-Catholic rhetoric, could you( and anyone else) tell me why Protestantism at this late juncture doesn’t include the deutero books as part of the inspired cannon, when Jesus Himself quoted from them? Doesn’t it worry anyone at all that you just might have a deficient authority when, after all, you need the scriptures to be that locus of truth, especially since the church is invisible and the Holy Spirit is with separate individuals. Unless, you believe that only Luther got the cannon correct and that Lutheranism is the rightful inheritor of the Holy Spirit, but that would make the Holy Spirit a liar to the church tradition prior Luther who official taught from the Deuterocanon. Do you really believe in that degree of discontinuity? Please prove from the scriptures that there is no discontinuity.
Scriptural proof that the deuterocanon is holy scripture:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
~Susan
( Hope you and family are enjoying a beautiful spring. I really envy the place where you live, it is just gorgeous)
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That’s what they all say.
No doubt fighting off Oldlifers feels like this for you (Gandalf-Susan) and Webfoot (the large footed hobbit of the shire).
Do finish reading the Hobbit when you can, Susan!!
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D.G. Hart:
mrs. W., that’s not what your church always taught:
360. Why is the Mass the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross?
The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross because in the Mass the victim is the same, and the principal priest is the same, Jesus Christ.<<<<
How many sacrifices were there at the cross? How many victims were there? What kind of sacrifice is the Mass?
I hope that people follow the link you so kindly provided to see the full entry about the sacrifice of the Mass. Here is a bit more.
"362. Is there any difference between the sacrifice of the cross and the Sacrifice of the Mass?
The manner in which the sacrifice is offered is different. On the cross Christ physically shed His blood and was physically slain, while in the Mass there is no physical shedding of blood nor physical death, because Christ can die no more; on the cross Christ gained merit and satisfied for us, while in the Mass He applies to us the merits and satisfaction of His death on the cross.
For we know that Christ, having risen from the dead, dies now no more, death shall no longer have dominion over him. (Romans 6:9)"
Here is your friend St. Augustine sounding a lot like a Catholic, and not much like the WCF. So, who changed Christian teaching on the sacrifice of the Mass and the Real Presence? The Catholic Church has not. Notice that Augustine learned this from the fathers. So, from at least the 4th Century until now, the Church has not changed her teaching about the sacrifice of the Mass.
Take a look at this elegant and thorough treatment of the subject as well.
http://www.thesumma.info/reality/reality41.php
Yes, I know that truckloads of evidence tracing the Catholic teaching about the sacrifice of the Mass, clearly showing that it is the ancient teaching of the Church will not break through the Protestant anti-Catholic firewall. That takes a work of grace and a heart that wants to understand what the Catholic Church teaches, even if one does not agree. I can’t help that, but I can help some who may be wondering or some whose faith may need to be strengthened.
…and I don’t mind sounding born again. Augustine himself seems to be pretty excited about sharing the truth of Jesus Christ with those who so needed to hear that Christ is real and His Presence is real in the Eucharist. "What God says, is" – as Fr. Baron says. Jesus’ words alone meet the standard Reformed teaching sets of sola scriptura, even, – "this is my body.”- but your tradition gets in the way of seeing that.
"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend His body and blood, which He poured out for us unto the forgiveness of sins.” (Sermons 227)
"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body.” (Sermons 234:2)
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice the blood of Christ." (Sermons 272)
"How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own body, He said: ‘this is my body.’ for he carried that body in His hands.” (Psalms 33:1:10)
"Was not Christ immolated only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated." (Letters 98:9)
"Christ is both the Priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily Sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to offer herself through Him." (City of God 10:20)
"By those sacrifices of the Old Law, this one Sacrifice is signified, in which there is a true remission of sins; but not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof." (Questions on the Heptateuch 3:57)
"Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for them, or when alms are given in the church." (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)
"But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. For the whole church observes this practice which was handed down by the fathers that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." (Sermons 172:2)
"…I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation. But no one eats that flesh unless first he adores it; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; and not only do we not sin by adoring, we do sin by not adoring." (Psalms 98:9)
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Susan, come on, infallibility means always having to say you’re sorry.
Didn’t you get the apologists’ memo?
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Susan, I have not spoken infallibly to my neighbor. I have simply spoken correctly. Do you really need to think that I speak infallibly to believe me when when I say the sky is blue? When we say that a source is infallible it means that it is intrinsically infallible, not just correct. But if you’re saying I can speak infallibly then why does anybody need a magisterium? Because you don’t just mean “correct about the sky but not because unable to err” but “unable to err.” But if you really do mean just “correct” (which also means it’s possible to be “incorrect”), then why don’t you just say that?
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 12, 2015 at 6:30 am | Permalink
vd, t, “The EOs ARE schismatics and heretics, though, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad persons.”
Then why did you bring up JPII concelebrating the Mass with Patriarchate Bartholomew? Should popes really co-officiate at Mass with schismatics and heretics?
On resistance theory, I was trying to give long shrift to Roman Catholic resistance theory. Who’s the hater?
Well, you are, of course, with your constant attacks on the Catholic Church. As if that makes your religion the true one.
As for the concelebrating the Eucharist, you don’t seem to understand that the sacraments trump hair-splitting on doctrine. After stripping Christianity of its essence, Calvinism turned its church into a synagogue, talk, talk, talk.
&c.
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Propaganda, the essence of which is to leave out the salient and damning details.
As above from the old Baltimore Catechism (remember boys and girls, only the discipline changes, never the doctrine. Repeat after me . . .).
361. What are the purposes for which the Mass is offered?
The purposes for which the Mass is offered are: first, to adore God as our Creator and Lord; second, to thank God for His many favors; third, to ask God to bestow His blessings on all men; fourth, to satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him.
Yup, Mrs. W. is holding her own when it comes to propaganda.
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Susan, the deuteros were never declared to be canonical until Trent in 1540-60.
So nobody really knew this until after the Reformation began.
IOW maybe the One True Wholly Apostasizing Reprobate church added to what the early church confessed.
Two, you need to cite where Christ or the apostles anywhere in the NT quoted from the DC because last time we went trough this routine at the Green Baggins, the DC quotes ended up being quotes of the OT – which OT quotes were also quoted in the New.
Another swing and a miss.
And the list grows longer for the Called to Confusion cadre:
imputation vs. infusion
separation vs. schism
total depravity vs. partial
physical presence vs. spiritual presence
deutero vs. canonical
cheers
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vd, t, well if it’s sacraments not words, then your assertion isn’t worth a damn (unless maybe you have crumbs of the host on your keyboard).
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the sacraments trump hair-splitting on doctrine
Fine Print/Warning: This is not in any way a dogma or doctrine. There is no doctrine of the sacraments to speak of. Any thing you have heard to the contrary is to be ignored.
And remember, nothing ever changes, only the discipline (application of the doctrine) never the doctrine itself.
Remember.
Roma Semper Eadem
Though the lies may change, Rome remains ever a liarLikeLike
When will Susan/TVD/Webfoot figure out there’s 556 questions and answers on the OPC Q&A website, and they haven’t yet gotten to any original material in their weeks (for TVD/Susan, years) of commenting at OLTS? Oh well, another chance to get a pic of my golf clubs on this site. Blessings to you interlocutors, I would consult the OPC Q&A next time before you ask a question, unless you just like hanging with us Calvinists because of our charm:
D. G. Hart
Posted May 12, 2015 at 3:49 pm | Permalink
vd, t, well if it’s sacraments not words, then your assertion isn’t worth a damn (unless maybe you have crumbs of the host on your keyboard).
Ah, back to the personal attack. This isn’t even a very good synagogue.
__________________
The reformers Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli took somewhat different positions on this in response to the abuses that were being taught by the Catholic church.
Exactly. In other words, the “Reformation” has no internal coherence, and is best understood as a Babel of non-Catholicism. Still, Luther’s conception of the Eucharist is closer to Rome’s than Geneva’s.
Susan
Posted May 12, 2015 at 2:16 pm | Permalink
To push a little harder in order to get honest feedback that is scripturally principled and not just anti-Catholic rhetoric, could you (and anyone else) tell me why Protestantism at this late juncture doesn’t include the deutero books as part of the inspired canon, when Jesus Himself quoted from them?
Because Luther said so. But Protestantism doesn’t have a magisterium. Got it?
Notice Butch steered right around this one. Not very able when they’re not on the attack. Protestantism is more an anti-religion than a religion in its own right.
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Whatever floats your boat, dude, but that statement has absolutely no meaning. Babel? I’m used to correcting protestants here when they call the roman catholic church the whore of Babylon. Is that what you are referring to? Are you calling the church in Geneva of the 16th century, to which the roughly 85million+ presbyterian and reformed people look to as part of our heritage the Whore of Babylon? I’m not getting you. Maybe this will help:
And TVD, remind Webfoot that she should only post 3 comments per day. I haven’t seen the wild 3am/4am posts on this blog since the days you were spouting off your own personal rabies theologorum, and I’m glad to see you’ve calmed down a bit. I like to think DGH has had a hand in your positive development. Grace and peace.
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Sorry, AB, but I wanted to clarify this. See you guys tomorrow, or sometime later in the week, maybe. Thanks for the good discussion. I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks, guys.
I said:
Neither would I join a Church that teaches that all Christians outside her care are going to hell because they are not real Christians.<<<<
Robert said:
Well the OPC doesn’t teach that, and neither does the PCA. So your problem with the Reformed is what, exactly?<<<<<<
I meant that the Catholic Church does not teach that those from other churches are going to hell if they do not return to her. Protestants and all who baptize using the trinitarian formula are considered by the Church to be in the category of separated brethren.
My problem with the Reformed movement? Good question. I came to believe that the separation in the first place was unnecessary. So, if I believe that, why don’t I go home to the Church? I started RCIA with the idea that I wanted to hear from the Church what she really believes, and now here I am.
There’s more than that, but basically I didn’t have any good reason to remain Protestant and many good reasons to join the Catholic Church. No, not everyone will reach that conclusion, but Protestants have many barriers to even understanding what the Church teaches let alone consider her claims.
The discussion about the sacrifice of the Mass is a case in point. The Protestant version of it is a distortion of what the Church teaches. So, it is a straw man that has been set up, and Protestants have been beating on it for several hundred years, now.
Now, if a Protestant understands and can articulate the real Church teaching, and recognize that it goes as far back as at least Augustine – who says he got it from the fathers of the Church – and still reject it, then fine. It’s not even considered or clearly articulated by Protestants. That’s a shame, but the shame is not the Church’s.
The same goes with the Real Presence.
Anyway, nice to hear from you, Robert. God bless.
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MW, it’s probably fine, the overriding principle is that you and everyone here, since this is a good calvinist inter-website, exercise restraint. We understand if your passions are what are keeping you going, it happens to all of us:
Check in the March Archives, just so you see what I mean:
Grace and peace.
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Steve,
But who can tell us without error what books are canonical? An authority has to know in order to tell others since each book doesn’t say, ” I am inspired and should be collected into your bible”.
When you tell your neighbor that Christ died for them and then was resurrected the third day, you are correct, the doctrine is inerrant and the truth is infallible( incapable of being wrong hence the reason it is “truth”). You can tell your neighbor that you have a certain number of children and that truth can be attested, but who today is a witness to the resurrection if the apostolic church went into apostasy, and all the others that have supposedly received the tradition instead, could err?
“I would not have believed the gospel, unless the authority of the Catholic Church had induced me.” (St. Augustine, Contra Ep. Fund., V, 6.)
Bob,
Is there a way to clear it up once for all or are we doomed to never know for sure? Did you see the cite I linked? It is of Jesus and the Apostles quoting from the Deuterocanon.
The canon was infallibly declared because the Reformers rejected those seven books. It doesn’t mean no one knew one way or the other, it was just a way to settle the argument, just like what happened at Nicaea and Constantinople, and later at Ephesus and Chalcedon. If the bishops were wrong on the canon, well it stands to reason that they were wrong on earlier issues.
Here is a great link. Hopefully you will do your homework:) Read through it; you can even follow the dialogue between Tom B.( the author of the article) and Jason S( of the Callers) starting at comment #12.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/01/the-canon-question/
But, I’m done. At least or a while.
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No. You missed this in the post:
Oh, and I can find augustine quotes too, Susan:
Isn’t this blog commenting business fun? I get my name on a world wide interweb, and all I have to do is put in a false e-mail, a name, and hit “post comment.”
I do feel a sense of pity for these catholics as they struggle with the truth claims of Geneva, they must come here to a protestant site to help them assuage their doubts. Susan/TVD/MW, I will pray for you that you find your peace.
Take care. Who’s next?
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Andrew,
You think this is a fun game? Maybe that’s the whole problem.
Nope, you can’t use Augustine, he’s ours:) He’s a canonized saint and couldn’t be if he didn’t worship Jesus under the accidents of bread and wine.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701024.htm
But in a way this is sort of like whack-a- mole( teasing) Or putting out multiple fires! Resist the urge to bombard me, please. Okay, I’m out.
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Susan,
I made something for you:
http://adbuckingham.com/esvdailybible.html
You can send this to anyone you want. Please read your bible every day. Augustine would be happy.
Susan, you don’t understand. You’ve been posting comments in a protestant blog for several (3 or more, I think) years now. I can recall when I first met you on Jason’s creedcodecult blog when you first converted. Again, I will pray for you to find your peace. Theology is no game, but on the internet, when someone uses an emoticon with me, I understand the medium we are in, and I know that I only need to post my thoughts about Theology and Golf (click on my “AB” for that, yet again), and I just get to sit back and watch those who struggle with the truth claims of the reformed faith flail around out here. I do hope for the best for you. Take care, and peace to you on your journey.
PS don’t say “I’m out.” It doesn’t work, trust me, I used to say that all the time. Dont make restrictions on yourself. This is only a blog, don’t take it so seriously.
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And since I’m a generous calvinist, another tip:
You can click on any of those days’ links, and note the button in the upper left hand corner. Look what the internet has birthed for us – you don’t even need to read your bible, you can use these links and daily have the nice bible man read the bible to you, for FREE!
So yeah, no. I’m not going to Called to Communion. I’ve got much better websites, and heck, I make better websites in my sleep. No one cares what Tom B and Jason S discussed on called to communion. if you listen to bad christian podcast #83 at that link right <———– there a few words back, start at 39 minutes in and here how jason recounts why he started his conversion to rome back in 2008.
I really could keep typing, I have probably another 5 comment boxes in my mind. Just sit back, and try to pay attention to others who are new to this discussion. You have been around so long, I fear for anyone who is of a religious persuasion who keeps posting in a blog not of their stripe. I fear you are still going through your epistemic crisis, for this verse seems apt of you, web, and tom:
respond as led,
andrew
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I don’t have time to comment on it now, but the last two posts over at Dreher’s website are apropos to this conversation I think:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/dont-blame-the-reformation/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/christianity-in-collapse-benedict-option/
One line from Rod that particularly stood out:
This is certainly congruent with my experience. When Rod writes about the “Benedict Option”, it seems to me that this is what we have in the form of reformed churches…not walled off from the “world” per se, but intentional and counter cultural church communities. Although I’m not so sure we do as a good a job of holding onto our covenant children as we ought – I seem to recall Darryl lamenting this fact in a post a few months (years?) ago.
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Andrew,
I don’t think it a game either, I do take it very seriously. When I talk to you, however, you never engage with what I say and you treat the proofs as if there is nothing substantive there.You tell me what Calvin says, and ignore the point I am seeking to show you and others. So that’s why I don’t usually talk to you.
I don’t need Calvin quoted to me, I don’t like him and what’s more, he’s not Catholic.
Luther, I’m partial to, because I too am highly scrupulous, and so I just feel for the man. You can quote him to me if you want:) ( Oh and I don’t use emojis because I’m trying to be cute. It’s to convey friendliness through these cold screens.
You also seem to think I am here to learn, and that’s not true either. I feel prompted to correct errors and defend the truth, but I am also guilty of getting carried away and sometimes becoming a little smug maybe even triumphalistic, and for that I am deeply sorry. For those things we share in common, I am thankful. You are my brother.
I never did finish The Hobbit, shhhh.
Take Care!
Susan
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That depends on what you mean by the word “Catholic.” The way I and RC Sproul define it, both John Calvin (may he rest in peace) and I are “Catholic.” Watch that video, I think it could help you understand where I am coming from here. In short, Catholic simply means universal. You and I share the Nicene creed, for example, as a part of our common Catholic faith.
We do not share the anathemas of Trent against protestant doctrine, nor do we both believe the church did the right thing in excommunicating Martin Luther.
Lastly, if you could, and if you know someone named “Debbie”, can you explain to her that I do not box, despite what Kenneth says about me:
I’ve gotten in poor kenneth’s head, it would seem. I like lurking out here and seeing who comes up next in OLTS, where comments are always open. Here, I’ll hit post, so you can see what my golf clubs look like again, but don’t look for too much meaning in all this. It’s just a blog, yo.
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Mrs. Webfoot, “The discussion about the sacrifice of the Mass is a case in point. The Protestant version of it is a distortion of what the Church teaches. So, it is a straw man that has been set up, and Protestants have been beating on it for several hundred years, now.”
Yes, when the magisterium is unclear or doesn’t perform well, blame Protestants.
You’d have made a great Communist in the Soviet Union.
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Susan, “But who can tell us without error what books are canonical?”
Well, if the answer is the magisterium, then what do you do when the magisterium tells you that the pope is above all earthly governments, that Jews need to live in ghettos, and that Crusaders need to capture holy land? Or how about those little miscues of how to handle priests with sexual pecadillos?
At some point don’t you need to wonder about your trust in the magisterium? Or better, don’t you need to acknowledge that you are the real pope — the one who decides when the magisterium is good and when it is not so good?
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Susan, what runs through your line of reasoning seems to be a healthy dose of doubt about the Bible and a lot of hand wringing about whether it can be trusted unless a lot of prior spade work is done on its authors, etc. (Meanwhile Protestants get whacked for private judgment.) Not to sound too Biblicist, but I don’t get it. It sounds a lot like higher criticism only instead of the hero being Reason it’s “The Church That Jesus Christ Founded.” But your own reasoning can just as easily be turned on you: how do you know TCTJCF™ can tell us without error what books are canonical, etc.? But go to any bookstore and pick up a Holy Bible. If you can’t trust that it really is the word of God, what else is there one can say?
Right, as you say, the truth is infallible. But you keep also wanting to say a man is infallible. A man is not the truth. He’s just a man. And all he can be is either correct or incorrect. If he’s correct, it doesn’t make him intrinsically infallible, just as if he’s incorrect it doesn’t make him intrinsically a liar.
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Steve,
After my bout with skepticism brought on partly, mind you, because of a divided Christendom it has taken me nearly two years to trust the bible again even though the scriptures belong to The Church. I know its wrong of me, but it’s he truth. So the vibe you get is real. I still have theological questions about such things as the total decimation of innocent people when the Israelites took the land of Canaan. Before I converted I had a conversation with a Reconstructionist in my then fellowship. No one was telling him to knock it off, and I realized that not only had Reformed theology engendered some radical and scary beliefs, they also couldn’t shut him up. He was an elder. Today, I don’t know what to think of stoning in the OT. Clearly Jesus said, “no way”, but what does that mean to the truthfulness of the OT law? Since, no one in Protestantism had consensus about the Eucharist, icons, baptism of infants etc, that meant there was no visible protestant church. I was willing to walk away from Christianity completely accept that the words of Jesus in the gospels were profound, and if they are not attributable to the main character, then the person who penned such sublimity is God. I settled on the idea that the church has always been there right under my nose( in Rome) the whole time.
Have you ever seen The Book of Eli? Without the magisterium that’s what we get; a post apocalyptic Mad Max scenario, with everyone taking the leftover tidbits and pulling together whatever steampunk religion that want, with still no authority.
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@ Susan (hi!) and Mrs. W: What Zrim said.
But we need to clear away one cobweb here. Both of you have Cath’splained us as being “anti-Catholic”, as an explanation for our inability to accept your arguments.
That’s not exactly true.
For one thing, I’m actually not particularly anti-Catholic. On Saturday, we had the opportunity to attend our niece’s first Communion. We went; I prayed when I could, sang when I could (Protestant hymns, Mrs. W. I guess Catholic music isn’t always superior?), and skipped the Eucharist and Hail Mary at the end.
That’s the way of it when you believe that all churches teach and practice a mixture of truth and error.
I am anti-something, though, which is the sole reason I engage with CtCers such as Bryan. I am fervently anti-sheep- and shepherd-stealing. I view CtC’s modus operandi as targeting Reformed pastors for conversion.
And if it were a simple matter of proclaiming the truth and leaving it there — well, I can ask no more. But the CtC method is to first sow immense doubt about the sufficiency of Scripture, and then drive the train through the hole left behind.
So yes, I oppose that. But Catholicism in general, not as much. When I have taught church history to high schoolers in the past, I have made every effort to explain Catholic teachings and practices on their own terms, such that the Catholics in my class were satisfied that I gave a fair presentation.
For another, the tag “anti-Catholic” is a back-handed way of placing the blame on us for not accepting your arguments. The arguments are clear enough, but our darn anti-Catholic defenses get in the way. But could it be rather that the arguments are not fully persuasive or cogent?
I’ll give an example. We’ve been around the block with Bryan on the question of “certainty” many times. In my view, the “certainty” that the Catholic church offers is illusory, because it is grounded in the individual’s prior judgment that the Catholic church is the One True Church. Everything now rests on that individual’s judgment, and there can be therefore no greater certainty than the one obtained through that judgment.
I can show you the math if it would help…
Now, Bryan wasn’t satisfied with my rebuttal, but he wasn’t particularly able to refute it either. In the end, we parted on grumpy terms. So I’m not claiming some kind of victory here.
Be that as it may, the point is that I have principled reasons, not stemming from anti-Catholicism, for believing that your sense of certainty is actual merely certitude.
I don’t expect that you’ll agree, but I do hope that you’ll accept that my own opposition (at least) is sincere and principled, to the extent that transparency is possible for sinners saved by grace.
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Susan, look with me at my ordination vows:
The notion of infallibility does require some wrestling with exactly what that means. Cletus Van Damme was hung up over this issue during his several years here.
What I mean, is, what does it mean in real life for me to attribute infallibility to the Bible? What does it mean for you to attribute it to the office of Pope?
I personally wrestled with this for years after I made my vow. Other denominations don’t require this, there’s only about 900 (The total number of deacons increased by 18 to 870, with 683 (79%) actively serving.) of us deacons in our small presby denom required to assent to this for ordination.
So you are wrestling with a tough issue that took me years of prayer and personal devotional time with Scripture. I can’t explain in a pithy statement here what this very personal process for me looked like. You just have to believe me.
I’ve told you before, and I tell you again – you should go to your priest or some catholic you trust with the epistemologic questions you raise here. Unfortunately, we’re Calvinists. Get used to reading here what he and us his spiritual children think about if you really desire to continue here.
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Jeff, very helpful, that’s good you went to her first communion. I went to my cousins roman catholic wedding a few years ago, praying to the dead was spooky.
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PS the main reason Susan you should seek internal (read: Roman Catholic) spiritual counsel is because you purport to want to teach us truth, but your latest comment (10:55pm) shows you are wrestling with some pretty serious issues. Continue at your own discretion, but I would advise sharing with your priest or someone in the real world you trust the words you post here and explain why you are posting in protestant blogs. Peace to you on your journey.
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Susan
Posted May 12, 2015 at 6:35 pm | Permalink
Steve,
But who can tell us without error what books are canonical? An authority has to know in order to tell others since each book doesn’t say, ” I am inspired and should be collected into your bible”.
When you tell your neighbor that Christ died for them and then was resurrected the third day, you are correct, the doctrine is inerrant and the truth is infallible( incapable of being wrong hence the reason it is “truth”). You can tell your neighbor that you have a certain number of children and that truth can be attested, but who today is a witness to the resurrection if the apostolic church went into apostasy, and all the others that have supposedly received the tradition instead, could err?
“I would not have believed the gospel, unless the authority of the Catholic Church had induced me.” (St. Augustine, Contra Ep. Fund., V, 6.)
Damn you and your Catholic facts!
__________________________
Susan
Posted May 12, 2015 at 8:34 pm | Permalink
Andrew,
I don’t think it a game either, I do take it very seriously. When I talk to you, however, you never engage with what I say and you treat the proofs as if there is nothing substantive there.You tell me what Calvin says, and ignore the point I am seeking to show you and others. So that’s why I don’t usually talk to you.
Wise. No point yapping back at Darryl’s new attack chihuahua. It does not speak English, only Calvinese.
______________
D. G. Hart
Posted May 12, 2015 at 9:51 pm | Permalink
Mrs. Webfoot, “The discussion about the sacrifice of the Mass is a case in point. The Protestant version of it is a distortion of what the Church teaches. So, it is a straw man that has been set up, and Protestants have been beating on it for several hundred years, now.”
Yes, when the magisterium is unclear or doesn’t perform well, blame Protestants.
You’d have made a great Communist in the Soviet Union.
Communist! Oh what a burn, Darryl!! Old Life running on all cylinders today!
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Tom, read Susan’s words here again, and tell me how I’m wrong telling her to stay off here, and instead seek out her priest.
You are using her as YOUR pet chihuahua, and not treating her as you would a friend.
And come after me all you like. It has no effect, and I know you enjoy calling me names.
Peace.
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” Roman Catholicism on the ground in the United States is effectively a Mainline Protestant church.”
Yes and no. The clerical heritage and traditions along with the religious orders and the mass keep it distinct. American RC in the local parish hasn’t melted down to RC social teaching, though on catholic campuses, it’s likely a more dominant persuasion.
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Jeff, you’re a hater. Microaggression.
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sean, what about the civil religion, the fortnight of freedom?
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Meh. I never paid much attention to such things. The pro-life movement always got some traction. Catholic primary education as well. Beyond those two, it got lost in the noise. Certain foreign missions could get some play, as well as local renovation projects. ACTS was after my time but apparently it got some participation.
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Susan, it’s a interesting point about reconstructionism. The fear you express about no magisterium to guide the church is the fear theonomists have about no Bible to guide civil life. The Bible is sufficient in the former as is general revelation for the latter. So (if it helps) a Reformed church that doesn’t put the resident theonomist in his place forfeits some cred when it maintains a polemic against Rome.
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@sean
Could be. My only experience with RC parishes has been in college towns. In my admittedly limited experience, I’ve found that RCs are as likely to church shop as evangelicals (in SB it was little flower if you were all about social justice, the basillica if you wanted the really good music, and St. Pats if you wanted Latin). Not sure if it still breaks down that way…
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Meanwhile, maybe Mrs. Webfoot, TVD, or Bryan can explain how a church that never changes tolerates LGBT masses and other such nonsense:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/lgbt-changing-church-san-jose/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=lgbt-changing-church-san-jose
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Steve,
I admit that I didn’t stick around to listen to his reasoning( he also doesn’t believe the Holocaust happened), but his Islamic like fideism shook me up, not only for myself so much, for I was quickly exiting the chaos during that time, but for the twenty- somethings were listening to his nonsense because he is an elder and also admirably quick with scripture. But I got the gist of his premise; the need for Dominion through Theonomy. I didn’t listen to how the plan was to be enacted, I was too busy internalizing the confusion inherent in Reformed theology, and imaging a crazed mob fueled by righteousness indignation meteing out God’s justice. And not just the violence was bothering me, but that the bible could actually be used to support theonomy if there wasn’t a counter argument that would reveal God’s right thoughts concerning it. I also couldn’t figure out if the law was written on our hearts, why there would be any debate on ethics and morals. Did this mean that the violence and killing of law breakers in the OT was really a terrible evil? I certainly wouldn’t stone my kids for disobedience. Did Moses misunderstand God, just like he had done concerning divorce? Biblically speaking was there any way to reign in rogues( if they were rogue) under orthodoxy( if there is ortho-doxy).The perspicuity of scripture was clearly not real.
Bryan and Brandon’s are discussing this subject now.
Anyways, back to my work.
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Robert,
That’s a Red Herring. This really isn’t a mystery or a conundrum. There are people who play act and who call themselves Catholic while rejecting *Church Teaching*, just like there are homosexual people who are determined to get God’s seal of approval on their union. Be assured that there is official teaching and it is always orthodox( not nominally so nor elusive).
http://www.strangenotions.com/wilson-hitchens/
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@Susan
I’m not so sure you are being fair to the point Dreher is raising. It is not just any people who “play act”. In this case it is the Bishop — whose teaching is authoritative (thought not infallible) and commands the submission of the intellect and will. Yet you seem to be using your private judgement to declare this bishop “play act(ing)”. How do you rectify the demand from your magisterium to submit your intellect to (an admittedly infallible) bishop while standing in judgement of his church governance?
Would faithful Christians under this Bishop’s care be justified in leaving? What if commuting across San Jose to a more faithful diocese wasn’t an option? Would a faithful PCA church plant be a better option for raising your kids in the Christian faith? Or do you dutifully take them to a church that celebrates an lgbt mass all the while explaining to them how what their bishop says isn’t congruent with what the church actually teaches? This strikes me as a very unwise path to take. But once you allow that it would be permissible to go to a non-RC church to escape what you infer to be a heretical diocese, how is that different than protestantism?
We prots believe that no visible manifestation of the church is perfect – there will always be a mixture of truth and error. But if a church refuses to discipline her members (or rejects the gospel) in the name of unity, it isn’t clear that you have a legitimate church anymore. Perhaps division is a terrible thing, but a lot of times it is the lesser of two evils.
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Robert
Posted May 13, 2015 at 1:40 pm | Permalink
Meanwhile, maybe Mrs. Webfoot, TVD, or Bryan can explain how a church that never changes tolerates LGBT masses and other such nonsense
Susan
Posted May 13, 2015 at 2:46 pm | Permalink
Robert,
That’s a Red Herring. This really isn’t a mystery or a conundrum. There are people who play act and who call themselves Catholic while rejecting *Church Teaching*, just like there are homosexual people who are determined to get God’s seal of approval on their union. Be assured that there is official teaching and it is always orthodox (not nominally so nor elusive).
Exactly. If a church is a hospital for sinners, it hardly makes sense to boot them out onto the sidewalk. Of course all are welcome.
Catholicism makes the necessary distinction between urges and actions–there is no change of Church teaching here. If and when there is, there certainly would be something to talk about, but at the moment this is another failed Old Life gotcha [as if that would make your own religion true].
http://www.startribune.com/vatican-cardinal-sees-no-change-in-family-debate-at-synod/303182891/
Of greater note is how the by-far largest Presbyterian church, the PCUSA, could go whole hog
PCUSA Church Ordains First Married Lesbian Couple as Ministers, Days After Denomination’s Marriage Amendment
and barely raise a peep across “Presbyterianism” [whatever that means anymore]. The obsession with hunting motes in Catholicism’s eye continues, and it’s that obsession that’s perhaps most probative.
That “Presbyterianism” devolves into theological comedy is unsurprising, but if the Catholic Church goes, all is lost.
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Gong you’re wrong:
pardon my wiki:
I count 14 churches larger than the PCUSA.
We get you are all about big churches, but you forget we follow Machen:
‘
Keep at it, TVD, you’ll understand us someday…I hope.
Truly your regard for wha we hold dear is inspiring. Keep it up, we really enjoy hearing your many interesting thoughts on our religion. Anything else you want to add, while you’re on such a roll, bud?
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Yes, largest in the US, by far. That doesn’t explain the obsession with Catholicism here, though. Your quibble misses the forest for the trees, Bub. This is why nobody wastes any of their 3 comments on you. Or even one of their thirty.
As for the United Church of Canada, same joke. Church of Scotland, teetering on knife’s edge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterianism_and_homosexuality
That Africa might save the Reformed faith is interesting, though. Mebbe there’s hope for you after all. As for Machen, I like him. But he was a schismatic, too, although I guess he figured one more joke wouldn’t hurt.
Yes, yes, he was tossed out, but only because he wouldn’t submit. Obviously church discipline is important only when you agree with it. Otherwise it’s illegitimate.
And someday you’ll see the irony of incessantly quoting Calvin, the Confessions or Machen authoritatively as though they were popes or the Bible or something.
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Tom – “Shame, shame, Dr. Historian, and very shoddy work offering opinionated secondary sources–and a imprimatur-less website at that–to try to make your case.”
Erik – Are you suggesting what you write contains an imprimatur?
Tom (Quoting Bishop Sheen) – “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.”
Erik – How do you reconcile that with Matthew 10.22: “and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”?
If everyone understood the “true Catholic Church” and loved it, wouldn’t that be a bad sign in light of how Jesus told us most people would treat Christians? I don’t follow your (or Sheen’s) logic.
And if hardly anyone understands the Catholic Church, might they not do a better job explaining themselves? Maybe shorten up the Catechism, for starters?
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vd, t, “If a church is a hospital for sinners, it hardly makes sense to boot them out onto the sidewalk.”
Well, how about handing them over to Satan?
Don’t let the Bible or the apostles get in the way of a pope.
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sdb,
If there is a parish within a diocese that is teaching wrongly or has some weird liturgical practice, it just means that they are rogue but geographically bounded within a diocese(just like every other Catholic parish church in the world). If you are unfamiliar with orthodoxy, yes, you could wind up in such a place and even think that it is Church approved, but again, since any question concerning what is approved or not approved can actually be found out by consulting the catechism, the case in the article is just a hasty generalization. Even if five of ten parishes are doing things wrong, there is an objective way to know which of the ten are actually the ones who are wrong, even if it takes a very long time to clean it up.
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vd, t, going going gone?
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@tvd
“Reader: The last straw is my diocese’s new traveling LGBT Mass. I thought that perhaps the Mass was going to provide support to Catholics who identify as LGBT but who aspire to live chaste lives in keeping with the teachings of our Lord and the Catechism. I asked the nun who coordinates the Mass if my presumption was correct. She disabused me of that notion and clarified that living a chaste life is not the goal…I realize now that I am on my own.
Dreher: Yes, in that neck of the woods you are. An old friend who lives in the Diocese of San Jose has been telling me about things like this for over 20 years…If I were still Catholic and lived in that Diocese, I honestly don’t know what I would do. I could not go to mass in diocesan parishes that so clearly and even proudly defied authoritative church teaching any more than I could go to an Arian mass back in the day. And I don’t know how I could in good conscience encourage someone to come into communion with the Catholic Church knowing that the struggle to achieve ordinary holiness would require having to battle (however quietly) priests and church authorities over what is basic truth.”
I agree that church is a hospital for sinners and we should come along side those who are struggling. That’s not what is happening here. These aren’t protestant polemics, this is coming from RCs (and in rod’s case EO) who are struggling to live as a Christian in a church that works against their faith and conclude it is irresponsible to encourage other christians to leave their church to join what is going on there. The ctc project is about enticing intellectually insecure prots to abandon their church (and often flock and family) by promising a church that only exists in theory. This isn’t about a few crazy bad apples here or there. It is the mainstream of the RCC in the west. I’m not anti the RCC, I am opposed to what strikes me as an intellectually dishonest call (and no, Bryan’s Jesuitical justification for his approach is not compelling).
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Susan, you line up your interpreters of the catechism with clerical charism and I’ll line up mine and we’ll have a debate. I’ll see if I can schedule Whitley Hall at OST and we’ll see just how perspicuous this catechism is and how clear it is to see who is within bounds and who is without. Please agree to this. ……”can actually be found out by consulting the catechism…..” Ho, ho, ho, he, he, he. I gotta get Whitley to come back from Vatican City to moderate. This would be tremendous.
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@Susan
this isn’t a rogue parish (or parishes). It is coming from the Diocese. The bishop is pushing it. I get it, he isn’t infallible, but how do you square your private judgement with your church’s requirement that you submit your intellect to his authority.?
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Susan,
You are living in a dream world. Once the bishop allows it, how can you question it and maintain the whole “RCC is better” schtick. You left Protestantism because you were tired of relying on your private judgment. Now you are using your private judgment to go against what a duly ordained member of the Magisterium allows.
This is the problem with an infallible Magisterium. One never knows what is infallible and what isn’t. You are fooling yourself if you think you are doing anything different than a Protestant when you evaluate who is a faithful RC and who isn’t.
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sdb, If there is a parish within a diocese that is teaching wrongly or has some weird liturgical practice, it just means everything is okay. Just keep moving.
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TVD,
Yes, largest in the US, by far. That doesn’t explain the obsession with Catholicism here, though.
The “obsession” has to do with the dishonesty of CTC in talking about friendly dialogue and then putting up the convert of the month all the while ignoring how actual lifelong RCs live and worship in favor of a church that doesn’t exist except in Brian’s hat and whomever he’s managed to snooker. If you haven’t noticed, Darryl has quite a high opinion of RCs who actually reflect RC practice and criticize it where it needs to be criticized.
But if you actually went to mass, you might know something about it.
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sdb, you didn’t quote the entire comment from Dreher’s reader:
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Susan,
If you can look at the Catechism and make those judgments, why can’t we look at the Bible and judge the entire Roman Catholic Church wanting? Is it about texts or men?
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Susan: … If you are unfamiliar with orthodoxy, yes, you could wind up in such a place and even think that it is Church approved, but again, since any question concerning what is approved or not approved can actually be found out by consulting the catechism.
I agree with you.
And further, the same faculty that allows you to compare the teaching of the bishop to the text of the CCC, is the faculty that allows Protestants to compare the teaching of the CCC to the text of the Bible.
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Sooooo you’re perfectly able to identify the church( and its erroneous doctrine) when hurling anathemas, buuut, on the other hand you can’t recognize her when you’re not feeling especially pugnacious. How convenient of you. Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water…
I will take your word that six or seven smart men are still unconvinced. There’s always tomorrow, my friends! Anyways, I wish you all well on your journey.
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ding, Robert
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PCUSA down another 5.5% year on year:
Erik Charter
Posted May 13, 2015 at 8:13 pm | Permalink
Tom – “Shame, shame, Dr. Historian, and very shoddy work offering opinionated secondary sources–and a imprimatur-less website at that–to try to make your case.”
Erik – Are you suggesting what you write contains an imprimatur?
Tom (Quoting Bishop Sheen) – “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.”
Erik – How do you reconcile that with Matthew 10.22: “and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”?
If everyone understood the “true Catholic Church” and loved it, wouldn’t that be a bad sign in light of how Jesus told us most people would treat Christians? I don’t follow your (or Sheen’s) logic.
And if hardly anyone understands the Catholic Church, might they not do a better job explaining themselves? Maybe shorten up the Catechism, for starters?
Are you crawling back to Old Life, Erik? Want your old job back doing Darryl’s dirty work?
Dr. Hart did shoddy work quoting some website without the Catholic Church’s imprimatur. Even then, an imprimatur or a nihil obstat isn’t ex cathedra.
You guys gotta get educated up, and honest.
As for the Catholic Catechism, I estimate that much of the bulk you object to is spent answering Protestant objections, and taking the time to respond to them. And they’re good objections, mind you.
That’s how Aquinas went about things, stating the other side’s objections honestly, then responding. The other side’s objections were fair, or else they weren’t worth responding to. He complimented the fairness of the objections by taking his limited time on earth responding to them.
So go for it, Old Life. Stop snarking and start responding. The Catholic ladies aren’t just more loving, they’re smarter than you, until you prove otherwise. If you really believe in your religion, stop playing dirty and man up.
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Robert,
“This is the problem with an infallible Magisterium. One never knows what is infallible and what isn’t.”
So there’s no problem then. Since the second sentence doesn’t hold.
“You are fooling yourself if you think you are doing anything different than a Protestant when you evaluate who is a faithful RC and who isn’t.”
Sure, a Protestant can evaluate who is faithful to his particular confession/communion just as an RC can. A scout can evaluate whether other scouts are faithful to their organization’s bylaws. A rotary club or fraternity member or HOA member or policeman or journalist can do the same. That’s not the point.
“in favor of a church that doesn’t exist except in Brian’s hat and whomever he’s managed to snooker.”
Conservative, traditional, orthodox RC laity, religious orders, priests, bishops, radio, authors, organizations, universities, etc exist around the world who never heard of Bryan’s hat.
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I don’t think it a game either, I do take it very seriously. When I talk to you, however, you never engage with what I say and you treat the proofs as if there is nothing substantive there.
Indeed, precisely my comment to you,Susan.
Again, note that any supposed quote of the Deutero Canonicals is also a quote of from the OT.
(If you don’t know your OT that well, that’s not my fault.)
Two, note the note on the DCs in the running list below, greek vs. hebrew.
What papists can’t distinguish:
reformed catholicism vs. roman catholicism
imputation vs. infusion
separation vs. schism
total depravity vs. partial depravity
physical presence vs. spiritual presence
deutero (greek) vs. canonical (hebrew)
private judgement vs. papal judgement
immaculate conception vs. immaculate deception
I have been reading books to try to understand how and why the church has changed so drastically in the last
50050 years.One, no mention of Scripture. As in God gives a church over which forsakes the gospel which Rome did at the Reformation with Trent’s anathema of justification by faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone.
Two, Roma Semper Eadem.
While the lies may change, Rome remains ever a liar.
IOW what is complexio oppositorum for Bryan et al, is a cunning and shameless chameleon for the rest of us.
I realize now that I am on my own.
Sounds like private judgement to me.
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The discussion about the sacrifice of the Mass is a case in point. The Protestant version of it is a distortion of what the Church teaches. So, it is a straw man that has been set up, and Protestants have been beating on it for several hundred years, now.
Incorrigible and patronizing ignorance masquerading as sophisticated and irenic maturity.
IOW we thank our romanist for sharing their usual private judgement/erroneous opinion.
The 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church says any number of things about the sacrifice of the mass, but the money quote is as below: “(T)his sacrifice is truly propitiatory”.
ARTICLE 3
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
V. The Sacramental Sacrifice: Thanksgiving, Memorial, Presence
The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner… this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”190 (1545)
Further, the CCC says:
1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who “have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,”193 so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ: (958, 1689, 1032)
. . .
Then, we pray [in the anaphora] for the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep, and in general for all who have fallen asleep before us, in the belief that it is a great benefit to the souls on whose behalf the supplication is offered, while the holy and tremendous Victim is present…. By offering to God our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, if they have sinned, we… offer Christ sacrificed for the sins of all, and so render favorable, for them and for us, the God who loves man.195
IOW there is a reason why the Heidelberg Q&A 80 says:
But the mass teaches,
first, that the living and the dead do not have forgiveness of sins through the suffering of Christ unless he is still offered for them daily by the priests;
and, second, that Christ is bodily present in the form of bread and wine, and there is to be worshipped.
Therefore the mass is basically nothing but a denial of the one sacrifice and suffering of Jesus Christ, and an accursed idolatry.
PS.
1389 The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season.224 But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily. (2042, 2837)
You know who you are.
cheers
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This is the real list.
If it keeps going, a collection will be taken to buy a used excavator so these poor papists don’t have to keep digging their own holes.
Papists at OL so far can’t tell the difference between:
reformed catholicism vs. roman catholicism
imputation vs. infusion
separation vs. schism
total depravity vs. partial depravity
physical presence vs. spiritual presence
deutero (greek) vs. canonical (hebrew)
private judgement vs. papal judgement
immaculate conception vs. immaculate deception
apostolic doctrine vs. apostolic bones
walking by faith vs. walking by sight
sacrament vs. sacrifice
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Bob,
” Indeed, precisely my comment to you,Susan.
Again, note that any supposed quote of the Deutero Canonicals is also a quote of from the OT.
(If you don’t know your OT that well, that’s not my fault.)
Two, note the note on the DCs in the running list below, greek vs. hebrew.”
Are you saying that there are sayings in the deutero books that are also spoken in the Protestant approved? I’m sorry I really don’t understand.
What papists can’t distinguish:
reformed catholicism vs. roman catholicism
imputation vs. infusion
separation vs. schism
total depravity vs. partial depravity
physical presence vs. spiritual presence
deutero (greek) vs. canonical (hebrew)
private judgement vs. papal judgement
immaculate conception vs. immaculate deception
“Papists” huh? Okay, we’re not going to get anywhere with this. Not very charitable.
Where’s Greg? I haven’t heard from him for a while. He is at least polite. In my mind he sounds like Wilford Brimley, whom I like. Greg, are you okay? Wish you well.
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Cletus,
So there’s no problem then. Since the second sentence doesn’t hold.
If Trent can tell me I’m going straight to hell and V2 can say I’m a separated brother, then yes it does hold.
Sure, a Protestant can evaluate who is faithful to his particular confession/communion just as an RC can. A scout can evaluate whether other scouts are faithful to their organization’s bylaws. A rotary club or fraternity member or HOA member or policeman or journalist can do the same. That’s not the point.
Sure it’s the point, or at least a significant part of the point for Susan and the average RC apologist. 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Protestant denominations? Oh dear, what am I to do? Can’t trust my own fallible judgment of the infallible Bible. But I CAN trust my own fallible judgment of the infallible Magisterium. Problem solved!
Conservative, traditional, orthodox RC laity, religious orders, priests, bishops, radio, authors, organizations, universities, etc exist around the world who never heard of Bryan’s hat.
Yeah, and these RCs tend to either not wave away history as irrelevant to what they say, or they go full-on traditional and reject V2 as being a true council, preferring to stick with the “old” ways.
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Susan, Greg is fine.
He has a blog, and publishes his contact info:
http://tiribulus.net
He’s very responsive on email. J heard from him yesterday.
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ec, don’t you love vd, t’s smart and principled reply?
ec, “how do you reconcile that with the Bible?”
vd,t “so now you’re doing Darryl’s dirty work.”
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vd, c, “Sure, a Protestant can evaluate who is faithful to his particular confession/communion just as an RC can.”
So why don’t you evaluate?
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Robert, “If Trent can tell me I’m going straight to hell and V2 can say I’m a separated brother, then yes it does hold.”
It’s the difference between dogma and discipline. The theology teaches you’re going to hell. But the pastoral counsel is that you’re a separated brother.
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D.G.,
Tom criticizes how I used to interact here, but he sadly acts like that himself toward people every day.
He won’t be a credible witness for any form of Christianity until he cleans that up. It repels people, it doesn’t attract them.
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Tom,
If I say something offensive, please point it out.
If you’re going to flare up with a personal attack anytime someone responds to you, that’s not going to be effective.
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Tom,
I think you missed my point on the imprimatur.
You criticize Darryl for quoting a website that lacks official Roman Catholic Church approval.
You post here daily on the Roman Catholic Church yet do not have official Church aporoval.
By your own standard, how can we consider you to be credible?
You may want to revise your standard of credibility in online debate. As it stands, you are inconsistent.
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Thank you Andrew.
Glad to know that some of you are friends with each other.
Have a great day.
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@Susan
You wrote, “Sooooo you’re perfectly able to identify the church( and its erroneous doctrine) when hurling anathemas, buuut, on the other hand you can’t recognize her when you’re not feeling especially pugnacious. How convenient of you. Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water…
I will take your word that six or seven smart men are still unconvinced. There’s always tomorrow, my friends! Anyways, I wish you all well on your journey.”
I’m not following. I’m genuinely curious about how the following works… If your bishop tells you that the catechism isn’t a binding rule, rather it is a guideline to be used along with others including your personal experience and the sense of the faithful, and your church tells you that while your bishop is not infallible, he has magisterial authority that commands the submission of your intellect and will – who are you to question him? Why is it OK to mine quotes from trad apologists who apply a different hermeneutic to the deposit of the faith and thus publicly defy this bishop?
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sdb, “Why is it OK to mine quotes from trad apologists who apply a different hermeneutic to the deposit of the faith and thus publicly defy this bishop?”
It’s America.
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So, then, you are proving that Protestants reject the Catholic Church. You are proving that Protestants have taken some Catholic teachings but not others. You are proving that you have your own teaching magisterium. You are proving that you have your own sacred texts that are not in Scripture alone, but that you use to interpret Scripture. You are also proving that you know very little about Scripture, at least in what you say here. Rarely if ever do you quote the book you say is the final arbiter in matters of faith and practice. You have shown that the Reformed movement is indeed the “we’re not Catholic” church. I will use the less inflammatory description of “anti-Catholic”, since I do not believe – or at least I hope that is not the case – that you dislike Catholics or believe that there are no real Christians in the Church. Still, so many of your arguments and doctrines are meant as refutations of Catholicism. In that way, so much of your rhetoric and doctrines are colored by centuries of arguments with our Mother, the Church.
You have shown that without the Catholic Church, you would not exist. You are still dependent on her, even though you call her apostate.
Quoting from the OPC version of the WCF, Chapter 1, section 5
“We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.”
What church is this talking about?
I want to at some point address the quote that AB so kindly provided, explaining the different views of the meaning of “this is my body” and how and why the Reformed idea of “real presence” is not real in the sense that the Church means it, or in the sense that Augustine meant it, or, especially, in the sense that Jesus means it.
Meanwhile, God bless us, every one. I would suggest a reading of Ephesians 1:17-23 for today.
Take care, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ
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Mrs. W.
So, then, you are
provingmaking a big deal that Protestants reject the Catholic Church when Roman Catholics already do. You areprovingignoring thatProtestantsRoman Catholics have taken some Catholic teachings but not others. You areprovingdenying that you haveyour own teaching magisteriumset yourself up as the arbiter of what is Roman Catholicism. You areprovingignoring that you haveyour own sacred textsoral traditions thatare not in Scripture alonecannot be verified, but that you use tointerpretmake Scripture less authoritative. You are also proving that you know very little about Scripture,at least in what you say herebut you don’t seem to care. Rarely if ever do you quotethe book you saythe pope and say he is the final arbiter in matters of faith and practice. You have shown that the Reformation happeneded movement is indeed the “we’re not Catholic” church. I will use the less inflammatory description of“anti-Catholic”gullible, since I do not believe – or at least I hope that is not the case – that youdislike Catholics or believe that there are no real Christians in the Churchlack brain matter. Still, so many of your arguments and doctrines are meant as refutations ofCatholicismProtestantism. In that way, so much of your rhetoric and doctrines are colored by centuries of arguments withour Mother, the Churchthe Reformed, Lutheran, and Anglican churches.Where’s the love?
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Mrs. Webfoot – You have shown that without the Catholic Church, you would not exist
Erik – Up until the Reformation, what chance did any other Christian church stand of getting off the ground without being stamped out by the civil authorities?
This is why I’m never that impressed by the longevity of the Roman Catholic Church. When you have a centuries-long head start longevity is predictable due to inertia.
The people we should probably all be impressed with are Pentecostals. What are they, 115 years old? And they are winning a lot of converts in areas of the world that were once overwhelmingly Roman Catholic.
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If one is going to accept the Roman Catholic Church without fideism, they need to do so on the basis of the Motives of Credibility, which are summarized by the Catholic Encyclopedia as follows:
“These testimonies are unanimous; they all point in one direction, they are of every age, they are clear and simple, and are within the grasp of the humblest intelligence. And, as the Vatican Council has said, “the Church herself, is, by her marvellous propagation, her wondrous sanctity, her inexhaustible fruitfulness in good works, her Catholic unity, and her enduring stability, a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefragable witness to her Divine commission” (Const. Dei Filius) .”
It’s in looking at historical evidence and holding the Church up to scrutiny that we determine if the Motives do indeed “all point in one direction”. It’s also why things like the cover-up of sexual abuse by priests is fair game. It’s all evidence…for something.
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Erik Charter
Posted May 14, 2015 at 9:07 am | Permalink
Tom,
I think you missed my point on the imprimatur.
You criticize Darryl for quoting a website that lacks official Roman Catholic Church approval.
You post here daily on the Roman Catholic Church yet do not have official Church aporoval.
By your own standard, how can we consider you to be credible?
Doing Darryl’s dirty work again. Welcome back! He needs the help.
The answer to your confusion is simple. If I were to impugn something in your religion, I would use sources you yourself find credible, not just make stuff up like Darryl does, say on infallibility or salvation by works. There’s no point in trying to win a debate based on false premises. Not that that stops some people around here.
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Robert,
“If Trent can tell me I’m going straight to hell and V2 can say I’m a separated brother, then yes it does hold.”
I do not see where Trent says not being a formal member of the church, or being a material heretic, entails one is going straight to hell.
Secondly, you said “never”, so even if we granted Trent-V2 were unclear on this particular matter as to what exactly is infallible regarding communion with Rome, that would not entail one can “never” know what is infallible.
So, again, by your standard there is no problem with magisterial infallibility.
“Sure it’s the point, or at least a significant part of the point for Susan and the average RC apologist. 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Protestant denominations?”
The point applies even if there was only 1 Protestant denomination – nothing would change in the dispute or argument. The endless denominations are just a symptom of that which further buttress the point – we would expect it to happen given the nature of Protestant claims, and it does.
“Yeah, and these RCs tend to either not wave away history as irrelevant to what they say, or they go full-on traditional and reject V2 as being a true council, preferring to stick with the “old” ways.”
Bryan’s hat doesn’t wave away history as irrelevant to what it says. Nor do the entities I referred to act like liberals Darryl enjoys mining to somehow prove CtC is disingenuous.
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Susan: Sooooo you’re perfectly able to identify the church( and its erroneous doctrine) when hurling anathemas, buuut, on the other hand you can’t recognize her when you’re not feeling especially pugnacious.
You may have been directing this at someone else, but here’s my reply.
(1) I’m not able to perfectly identify “the church” at any time, for the simple reason that the church has both visible and invisible aspects.
As said previously, any church on earth contains a mixture of truth and error in both doctrine and practice. For that reason, Reformed folk don’t have a category for “the true church.” We don’t look to any institution, whether PCA or OPC or NAPARC, as “the true church.”
Instead, we look to marks of the church: Gospel preaching, sacramental administration, discipline. Churches will exhibit those marks to a greater or lesser extent.
The Quest for The True Church is not even a category in Reformed thought. When Jesus returns, He will reveal and purify His church (Matt 13.24ff). Until that time, we expect tares everywhere.
(2) I don’t think I’ve hurled anathemas. If I have, then I sincerely apologize for doing so. I think of you — to the best of ability to read outward signs of inward faith — as trusting in Jesus.
(3) What is recognized, and what the Lord commanded us to recognize, is teaching contrary to the Word of God. The Lord taught His followers to beware of false teachers and teaching (Matt 7.15-20) even while avoiding judging the heart of others (Matt 7.1-5). His apostles likewise taught the churches to avoid a false Gospel (Gal 1.6-8) or false teaching (Jude 3-4).
What you have done, and very rightly so, is to look at the teaching of the bishop of San Jose and rejected it as false.
How? You knew the Scripture, and the Catechism of your church confirmed, that his teaching was simply wrong — despite his authority.
It’s really that simple. As the Lord commanded, you looked, you understood, and you sided with the Word of the Lord.
It’s what we are commanded to do, and it is also what a sincere Protestant attempts to do. All of that is uncomplicated … until … someone comes along and sows doubt in our ability to read and understand.
To sum up: We Protestants do not at any time identify The One True Church. Instead, we attempt to identify true doctrine, and we rejoice where we find it, whether in Catholic or Eastern or Baptist or Presbyterian churches. And we join particular churches whose preaching of the gospel, administration of the sacraments, and discipline are sufficient.
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Jeff Cagle
Posted May 14, 2015 at 4:22 pm | Permalink
To sum up: We Protestants do not at any time identify The One True Church. Instead, we attempt to identify true doctrine, and we rejoice where we find it, whether in Catholic or Eastern or Baptist or Presbyterian churches. And we join particular churches whose preaching of the gospel, administration of the sacraments, and discipline are sufficient.
You subscribe to the Nicene Creed
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church
but your definition of “church” here is incompatible with that.
“But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me” (Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei 5:6)
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Tom – The answer to your confusion is simple. If I were to impugn something in your religion, I would use sources you yourself find credible
Erik – So you are saying that it is possible to impugn your religions with sources that you yourself find credible?
If so, what would those be?
Whenever we cite past Popes we are usually told that their opinions no longer apply. You yourself seemed to say that when Darryl cited “Humani Generis” last week.
If we can’t cite Popes, what sources ARE credible?
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Tom – Doing Darryl’s dirty work again. Welcome back! He needs the help.
Erik – On Sunday you said you wanted to focus on the discussion and not the discussants.
It’s Thursday. Have you changed your mind?
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TVD: You subscribe to the Nicene Creed
Yes, I do.
Creed: And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church
TVD: but your definition of “church” here is incompatible with that.
No, it isn’t, and after thirty-plus years of saying the creed and reflecting on it, I’m quite certain of that.
Now, it is true that my definition of “church” is incompatible with yours, and you project that incompatibility onto the creed.
You have no evidence that Nicea ever envisioned a church whose most important doctrinal decisions were settled by one single bishop at the top.
Sorry to be snippy, but you’ve had your Crazy Hat on for about 8 pages of comments now, and it’s wearing very thin. If you want substance, engage substantively.
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Erik Charter
Posted May 14, 2015 at 4:36 pm | Permalink
Tom – Doing Darryl’s dirty work again. Welcome back! He needs the help.
Erik – On Sunday you said you wanted to focus on the discussion and not the discussants.
It’s Thursday. Have you changed your mind?
You’re doing it again.
_____________________
Jeff Cagle
Posted May 14, 2015 at 4:47 pm | Permalink
Sorry to be snippy, but you’ve had your Crazy Hat on for about 8 pages of comments now, and it’s wearing very thin. If you want substance, engage substantively.
And you are, too. Very bad Old Life cancer. Can’t lay off the ad homs.
As for your understanding of “one, holy and catholic and apostolic church,” your own definition
To sum up: We Protestants do not at any time identify The One True Church. Instead, we attempt to identify true doctrine, and we rejoice where we find it, whether in Catholic or Eastern or Baptist or Presbyterian churches. And we join particular churches whose preaching of the gospel, administration of the sacraments, and discipline are sufficient.
isn’t it.
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You guys do know that opc dot org has a “search opc dot org” feature, right?
I feel like even though watching Tom’s videos of The Cookies which are from before i was born, I need to police you children as you bicker over theology. Tom, don’t make me post again, this is getting old (it is oldlife I guess..sigh….)
Mr. President from 2005 had something for us reformed Christians, yo:
Is it too much to suggest that a golf match between members of reformed denominations could help? Like a game before this proposed tri-annual assembly? It could help break the ice..you never know you know…….
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I’m so happy that EC is back so I’m not the only guy who does this
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Tom,
If the only way to please you is to agree with you. I’m afraid you aren’t going to be happy.
If your game is trading personal insults back-and-forth, I’m not going to play. You and Darryl doing that is enough.
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vd, c, perhaps you missed today’s post with quotes from Trueman:
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@AB thanks for the link. Interesting stuff, but I am not so sure it would mean much except as a marketing exercise. Maybe I am too cynical. I still maintain the relationship among reformed denominations is more akin to “orders”.
I do see he appeals to the westminster standards and three forms. I know some see the westminster stuff more meaty and Heidelberg more pastoral, but do you know if there are any conflicts between them?
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From AB’s president:
Dreamers awake! There is work to do!<<<
Very sad. At least he tried, AB.
I am not happy to see the Reformed movement in such disarray and division. I owe so much to it personally. You cannot at this time envision yourself being Catholic. At least read the CCC to see what the Church teaches. Sure, some will say that she has changed, but look at who is quoted most often to support each section. Besides, you may be surprised to find that we have a lot of doctrine in common.
A lot of it contains your heritage, too, as a Protestant. Hey, even Augustine is relied on heavily in many places.
We’ll talk again. Meanwhile, all the best. I suppose this thread has pretty much run its course. The important issues raised have not. 🙂 I am not laughing, just smiling a friendly smile.
Thank you, D.G. Hart, as well. Take care.
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Hi SDB,
Yes, there are conflicts. My pastor is a recent grad of WSCAL, and he has mentioned to me on several occasions the interesting nature of Westminster West because that institutions requires its faculty to subscribe to WCF and 3FU. I don’t know what they are, but this puritan board post is the first hit on my google search engine. Take care.
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SDB, continuing, this appears to be the meatiest of the answers from puritanboard:
Mrs. Webfoot, thanks for stopping by oldlife, comments always open, many disagree with DGH, but you gotta admit, his blog is one of a kind, and anyone with an interweb connection can write in with their thoughts any time of day, 24/7/365. It takes a unique character to do what DGH does. I agree that the division within presbyism is sad, even DGH said a similar sentiment in Heidelcast 67 which you can find via google. Our tradition should not look like this but that’s where we are at. You can always pray for us, Psalm 133 style. Grace and peace.
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AB, I will be back, D.V. You can’t get rid of me this easily! Remember, my faith teaches me that all those baptized into Christ in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are family. Well, there’s a bit more to it, like the Nicene Creed, but we do have those things in common. Besides, what would a family be without some disagreements, separations where we’re not speaking to one another, and lots of interesting characters, some of them saints, even. I know there’s more to it than that, and there are issues that may never be resolved on this earth.
Meanwhile, we press on.
BTW, I love the Cookies. You are a young un’ if you were born after them. Take care.
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Erik Charter
Posted May 14, 2015 at 6:36 pm | Permalink
Tom,
If the only way to please you is to agree with you. I’m afraid you aren’t going to be happy.
If your game is trading personal insults back-and-forth, I’m not going to play. You and Darryl doing that is enough.
You’re doing it again. Can’t help yourselves. Discussing the discussing.
Darryl based his case on some private “Catholic” website with no more authority than any Joe off the street. That was sloppy arguing. This has nothing to do with you.
_________________
AB
Posted May 14, 2015 at 5:40 pm | Permalink
Therefore, when the Nicene Creed states, “I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,” it is not referring to one international organization, but one international fellowship of regional churches.
Even if true, the current schismatic mess that is “Protestantism” or even “Prebyterianism” doesn’t fit the bill. [Catholicism does, though.]
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Tom,
Like Alanis Morissette, Reformed Protestantism might be a tad sick…But she’s pretty…. BABY!
And everything’s gonna be fine, fine FINE!!
Pray for us:
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Tom,
But aren’t you just “Tom off the street” when you defend the church?
Doesn’t your critique work both ways?
And if I’m doing “Darryl’s dirty work” does that mean you’re doing “The Pope’s dirty work”?
You have great difficulty just arguing in a principled way.
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Where’s Greg? I haven’t heard from him for a while. He is at least polite. In my mind he sounds like Wilford Brimley, whom I like. Greg, are you okay? Wish you well.
Well bless your heart dear. Yes I am fine and I appreciate your asking, but THIS is what I sound like.
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Oops. Sorry
Susan says: “Where’s Greg? I haven’t heard from him for a while. He is at least polite. In my mind he sounds like Wilford Brimley, whom I like. Greg, are you okay? Wish you well.
Well bless your heart dear. Yes I am fine and I appreciate your asking, but THIS is what I sound like.
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Erik Charter
Posted May 14, 2015 at 10:04 pm | Permalink
Tom,
But aren’t you just “Tom off the street” when you defend the church?
Doesn’t your critique work both ways?
And if I’m doing “Darryl’s dirty work” does that mean you’re doing “The Pope’s dirty work”?
You have great difficulty just arguing in a principled way.
You’re still doing it. Can’t help but get personal.
And the difference of course is that the pope doesn’t give a crap about Darryl and his little church, although Darryl’s obsessed with attacking Catholicism and Catholics. Actually I’ve argued quite logically, not that you’ve responded substantively to a single word I said.
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Are you saying that there are sayings in the deutero books that are also spoken in the Protestant approved? I’m sorry I really don’t understand.
In a nutshell, the problem to a man/woman with the ex prot roman papist apologists. They don’t even know the question, much more the reformed answer, whatever the Roman position.
True, Bryan and Jase might know it and suppress it, but Suse, W et al are usually blank. Nevertheless they enjoy coming over here – comments are open – to lecture the recalcitrant prots for wilfully refusing the “fullness” of the
RomanCatholic faith. But that this discussion on the internet has been going on since the Reformation and even earlier does not ever seem to occur to them.Which is kind of funny. I was taught in Jesuit freshman history class to go to the primary sources.
True, by the grace of God, I ended up taking that to mean the Bible, not the Donation of Constantine, but a little homework might be in order for our interlocutors.
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Are you saying that there are sayings in the deutero books that are also spoken in the Protestant approved? I’m sorry I really don’t understand.
S, the early church never accepted the apocrypha/deutero canonicals because one, they were written in Greek, not Hebrew, like the rest of the Bible.
Two, the assertion by Rome that the NT quotes from the DC, fails to mention that the supposed quotes from the DC in the NT are actually quotes of the Hebrew OT, which then are quoted by the NT. So IOW, just because the DCs piggyback on the quotes from the Hebrew OT in the NT does not secure their status as inspired Scripture to be added unto the same.
What papists can’t distinguish:
“Papists” huh? Okay, we’re not going to get anywhere with this. Not very charitable.
One, it’s true and therefore charitable. Papists think the pope is the infallible and visible head of Christ’s church.
Unless you think lying is charitable.
Two, the reason “
youwe’re not going to get anywhere with this” is because for egs. you either refuse or are unable to engage as above re. the DCs.W for her part whines about prot misrepresentation of the mass and then totally ignores what the Roman catechism says when it is brought to her attention.
Because we are not nice/rude/whatever. (Ever heard of “dilettantes”?)
Nevertheless, you, W and every other papist here still want to claim the name of Christian brother or sister. IOW you still don’t get it.
If you really were brethren and your church was a true church, the Reformers sinned in separating from you.
Got that?
“Sinned”.
And their descendants need to repent and return pronto.
But it’s not going to happen.
Why not?
Because they didn’t sin and we can know that. Truly. Infallibly.
Because on the basis of Scripture alone (2 Tim. 3:17, Gal. 1:8,9), reformed catholicism was able to determine that roman catholicism was the epitome of a self righteous/works righteous religion; a walk by sight and not by faith affair. It is the acme of religion according to the natural carnal man under the cover and guise of Christianity; the devil’s masterpiece in that genuine spirituality is banished and ex opere magic results, but all in the name of Christ of course. Sacraments actually convey what they represent. The mass is a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of men, living and dead etc. etc.
Read Augustine On Christian Doctrine – which is all about interpreting the Bible, not interpreting the papal encyclicals. To mistake the sign for what it represents is the height of confusion. (The word “door” is a word, not a door.)
Rather the carnal mind is at enmity with God.
So too Romanism and its adherents.
Of course you no like.
But let God be true and every man a liar. Rom. 3:4
Are we therefore become your enemy, because we tell you the truth? cp. Gal. 4:16
That’s the real question.
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vd, t, “Darryl based his case on some private “Catholic” website with no more authority than any Joe off the street.”
vd, t, a person with no more authority than any Joe off the street, you don’t even have a “Catholic” website.
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And we know who is at the top of vd, t’s poster of reliable Roman Catholic authorities and websites.
“Actually I’ve argued quite logically, not that you’ve responded substantively to a single word I said.”
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Tom,
Why would you say that “The Pope doesn’t give a cap about Darryl”?
That’s very unkind. You could learn a lot about kindness from your Pope. You seem to be a very calloused man.
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Tom,
Have you had some time to think about how you reconcile Pius XII on evolution with your critique of the OPC’S treatment of Terry Gray?
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That should be “crap”, not “cap”.
Maybe a Crossian Freudian slip from the old days.
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Tom,
The Bible teaches that we ought not think too highly of ourselves, nor should we praise ourselves. I think your Pope would concur with the Bible on that one. You appear to be guilty of a transgression in praising your own logic. What say ye?
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Erik and DGH, of course philosodude likes Bryan Cross, they are both Yankee fans.
Same stuff different day.
Like you said DGH, I appreciate his stubbornness and fortitude. I’d much rather have him and his band The Cookies than the music Jason and the Callers cook up (usually they have gregorian chanting style music before their “podcasts” (well the callers’ podcasts, not the drunks’)). When seen in that comparison, TVD is a welcome development out here, him and webfoot are a big improvement over Bryan and Tater. I guess I’m trying to be all “power of positive thinking”..
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Tom,
You received a Papally approved education in your boyhood yet spent 30 years in the secular wilderness before coming home. Can you share your heart-story with us of how the current Pope has won you back into his fold?
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Andy,
True dat.
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Erik, I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:
Great to have you back.
I like Tom, and if you read this thread, I’ve said it a few times this was kind of Tom’s coming out. I’m really proud of him and the courage he showed. This wild thread, which for sure the introduction of Mrs. Webfoot helped to provoke, has actually been quite healthy, I’m happy to opine.
Tom, I’m also proud of you. You’re learning to put your neck out and publicly stand by your religious convictions. On the whole, this thread has been good from you. Learn from this and build.I had to learn how to converse with Catholics, CTC was where I cut my teeth in 2012. I mean it, good job here. I’m always here to help. Have a good week. Grace and peace, from the BSU
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Actually, Bob S., you guys are rude, with a few exceptions. That rudeness is part of what is destroying American Presbyterianism, and even American Evangelicalism. You are rude to one another. I get the rudeness to Catholics – or papists as you call us. Believe me, I do. It is the rudeness to fellow Protestants, Evangelicals, and Pentecostals that is destroying your movement.
And could you point out where the CCC contradicts what Jesus said at the Last Supper or what Augustine said about the Real Presence in the Eucharist? The only ref. I made to the Eucharist had to do with Jesus and Augustine.
The CCC contradicts neither. …but since you know everything about Catholicism, you must know that, right. The Real Presence that the OPC speaks of is not real. There is no body. It is merely bread. So, how do you defend yourselves against the accusation that you do not believe fully in the Incarnation?
Your misunderstanding of the Real Presence, and your ignorance of biblical teaching about who Mary is are problematic. What does the Incarnation mean to you? Catholicism is all about the Incarnation. Was the Holy Spirit little more than a rapist, using whatever body He found and impregnating it with the Son of God? Did God see her only as a body, or as something more?
Protestantism is all about fighting over who has the correct doctrine and who is the best at the sola scriptura game. Nobody wins, but everyone fights.
So, let’s do some sola scriptura, if you are game. Jesus did not say, “Take it and eat,’ …, ‘this is my bread.” He said, “‘Take it and eat,’ …, ‘this is my body.” How long will it take you to play the “we believe in sola scriptura, not solo scriptura” card. If you know so much, you will know right away that card is nothing more than bad Latin grammar.
Once the grammar card has been played, we can turn to Greeking card.
When that breaks down, you can play the “we’re not biblicists” card, and then we end up out of scriptura altogether.
Jesus was even more graphic here. I have quoted the Original Source.
John 6
47 In all truth I tell you, everyone who believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate manna in the desert and they are dead;
50 but this is the bread which comes down from heaven, so that a person may eat it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which has come down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I shall give is my flesh, for the life of the world.’
52 Then the Jews started arguing among themselves, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’
53 Jesus replied to them: In all truth I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise that person up on the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in that person.
57 As the living Father sent me and I draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will also draw life from me.
58 This is the bread which has come down from heaven; it is not like the bread our ancestors ate: they are dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live for ever.
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Tom disagrees:
You Roman Catholics need to get your story straight. Keep at it.
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Andy,
I too have felt myself strangely warmed by Tom’s heart-cry.
I want to hear more about his running into the arms of his waiting Papi.
Lay it on us, Tom. The floor is yours.
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Mrs. Webfoot,
Your friend Tom appears to have problems with your church’s stand on evolution. I suspect he would mock it as anti-scientific.
How is the view that Christ’s body is physically present at every mass not anti-scientific?
If Christ is a real man, how can his physical body defy the laws of physics in that way?
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Erik, his standard rejoinder us he doesnt cast his pearls before swine.
So as his swine, all we do is try to get him to open up. We are his Church for now, we must assume his status as lapsed Catholic is still in good standing until he tells us other wise. I feel for him, I wouldn’t want to go to that church’s services either. Hopefully he gives us swine, the reformed Protestants a try. But with friends like webfoot encouraging him, we have a long way to go.
Buckle up.
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Mrs. Webfoot – Protestantism is all about fighting over who has the correct doctrine
Erik – But aren’t you here fighting over who has the correct doctrine?
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Mrs. Webfoot,
If you take all of Jesus’ words literally, why do you still have your hands and eyes? Didn’t Jesus tell you to cut them off and gouge them out?
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Andy,
I want nothing more than to provide a safe place for Tom to open up and let it all come pouring out.
You’re safe here, Tom. Let it flow.
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Mrs. Webfoot,
If your mutual Papi has given your friend Tom a testimony, please encourage him to not hide it under a bushel basket.
Join us in encouraging him to let it flow like liquid love, as you have done here with your own testimony.
Well done, my spiritual sister from another mother.
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Yes, I suppose I am here fighting about who has the correct doctrine. 🙂 Now you made me laugh! That’s not nice! Of course, according to my faith, we are all family, so fighting in and of itself is not bad. How we fight and what we fight for makes a difference. Anyway…
I don’t quite get the evolution ref. Below is what St. Thomas Aquinas said about the Eucharist. Notice that he used the little phrase “sola fide”. The idea is that the mystery of the Eucharist cannot be understood by rational thought alone. If you cannot figure it out using human reason – which you cannot- then for a sincere heart, faith alone is sufficient. This hymn is sung on Maundy Thursday.
It requires faith. Christ, as Creator, calls everything into being. What He says, is. So, just as He changed the water into wine, bread is also changed into His body and wine into His blood. The priest stands in the place of Christ and pronounces the words of Christ.
Verbum caro, panem verum
Verbo carnem éfficit:
Fitque sanguis Christi merum,
Et si sensus déficit,
Ad firmándum cor sincérum
Sola fides súfficit.
– from the Pangue Lingua
Read my comment to the Rod & Carl v. Brad post. I’ll paste it here. Not sure if you will see the connection. Protestantism, for the most part – except in some ways, the Pentecostal and the Charismatic movements – has abolished the transcendent. That is a tragedy. Along with it went art, music, architecture, and mysticism. Well, the Reformed movement does much better at trying to conserve and promote Christian art, music, and architecture. I’ll give you that. But the transcendent…
This is only my opinion, and does not bear the imprimatur of anyone, not even my buddy Tom.
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I love that phrase “the abolition of the transcendent.”
Good article, Tom.
“One can, and indeed one should, argue about theological truths. But it is how we Christians argue with one another that may well determine the future of Christianity. “
I think there is a lot of truth in what Radner says here.
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/06/the-reformation-wrongly-blamed
Thanks for the link, Tom.
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Yes, Tom is my friend. The article he posted was written by Ephraim Radner, a Canadian Evangelical Anglican. He had points of disagreement with the Brad Gregory book.
Anyway, Tom is quite logical, and to the point. He does not waste words. Now, I am a different story, but I try to present reasonable arguments in a kind way. Bob S. is especially annoying, and I suppose it’s his way of getting attention. So, I gave him some. 🙂
…and Erik, I suppose you know that Catholic commentators also take the eye and hand imagery to be figurative. Why does the Church take Jesus’ words to mean something more transcendent and immanent and real in a physical way? That goes to the heart of the big difference between Catholic and Protestant.
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She may be called a friend, EC, but sister is reserved per M. Horton for those who are with us, as described here:
Art, Webfoot?
This guy left because of the art, how ironic:
Mrs. W., how exactly is it logical to respond to obvious problems in Roman Catholicism by replying that Protestants divide and have problems?
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Mrs. W: The Real Presence that the OPC speaks of is not real. There is no body. It is merely bread.
Actually, that’s not so. What you are describing is the Baptist and Zwinglist view, not the Reformed view. If you’ve not had the opportunity to read Keith Mathison’s Given For You, it is well-worth a read.
In the Reformed understanding, which is not completely explained in the OPC article linked, Jesus’ body is with Him, seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
When believers partake by faith, they (through the Spirit) are brought into His presence and feed.
WLC 170: How do they that worthily communicate in the Lord’s Supper feed upon the body and blood of Christ therein?
Answer: As the body and blood of Christ are not corporally or carnally present in, with, or under the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper, and yet are spiritually present to the faith of the receiver, no less truly and really than the elements themselves are to their outward senses; so they that worthily communicate in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, do therein feed upon the body and blood of Christ, not after a corporal and carnal, but in a spiritual manner; yet truly and really, while by faith they receive and apply unto themselves Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death.
— John Calvin, Short Treatise on the Lord’s Supper
It would not be correct to say that “there is no body.” It would be correct to say that in the Reformed view, we partake of the body, but the body is not actually in the bread.
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Mrs. W: So, let’s do some sola scriptura, if you are game. Jesus did not say, “Take it and eat,’ …, ‘this is my bread.” He said, “‘Take it and eat,’ …, ‘this is my body.” How long will it take you to play the “we believe in sola scriptura, not solo scriptura” card. If you know so much, you will know right away that card is nothing more than bad Latin grammar.
Once the grammar card has been played, we can turn to Greeking card.
When that breaks down, you can play the “we’re not biblicists” card, and then we end up out of scriptura altogether.
I’m game. Questions for you:
(1) Does Jesus ever use metaphors?
(2) Is it logically possible that in Matt 26 and John 6, Jesus is using a metaphor?
(3) Do we have any evidence in the text that would help us eliminate either a metaphorical or literal interpretation?
(4) Does Jesus use any textual signs when He is speaking metaphorically or literally, signs that might help us understand here?
That’s how sola scriptura works. SS does not mean “take the literal interpretation of words every time”; it does mean doing careful exegesis with the whole of Scripture as context. If you have previously believed that sola scriptura meant “taking the literal meaning every time”, then I’m glad, in an indirect way, that you no longer use such a method. But now that you are critiquing SS, it is of course important to understand what it is.
Qn (3) is the hardest question, because it is very difficult to eliminate the possibility of metaphor. Many statements that can be taken literally, can also be taken metaphorically.
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Just to play some of my cards, here are the textual clues that I find relevant.
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe … For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. — John 6, passim.
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Mrs. Webfoot – I don’t quite get the evolution ref. Below is what St. Thomas Aquinas said about the Eucharist. Notice that he used the little phrase “sola fide”. The idea is that the mystery of the Eucharist cannot be understood by rational thought alone. If you cannot figure it out using human reason – which you cannot- then for a sincere heart, faith alone is sufficient.
Erik – So faith is the way to resolve a logical contradiction?
And you’re trying to reason us into becoming Catholics?
This is what I don’t get about Catholics. We’re supposed to come into the church via reason by examining the Motives of Credibility — no fideism allowed.
Then once we’re in it’s “just trust us, don’t try to reason your way to truth.”
If reason gets you in, why isn’t it good enough after that?
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Hi, Jeff,
Yes, in Reformed teaching, Christ’s presence is spiritual and not physical. That is why Catholics are not supposed to take communion in Reformed churches. The meaning is not the same.
We can join in the prayers, listen to Scripture read. listen to the Word preached, even participate in the music and singing, but not the Lord’s Supper. Do Catholics take communion in Protestant churches? I am sure that many do. Still, we are not supposed to. Protestants, except under special circumstances, are not supposed to take Communion in a Catholic Church either. They can come forward to receive a blessing, or can stay in their seats and pray, but not partake of the body and blood of Christ. They are welcome to worship, though.
There is a difference, and that difference is real.
He becomes the Bread and the Wine. See the relationship to the Incarnation? That relationship is obscured in saying, “do therein feed upon the body and blood of Christ, not after a corporal and carnal, but in a spiritual manner;”. It is not hard to go from there to a denial of the real humanity of Christ, or the literal resurrection for that matter.
———————————————————-
The following is part of what the sheep are taught so that the sheep will be able to recognize the voice of the Shepherd. Some call it brain washing. Others call it faith formation.
Yes, some Catholic theologians have also gone to a spiritualizing of the real Presence and the Incarnation along with the resurrection, following the lead of the Protestant higher critics, but it is much harder given the fact that the Eucharist is explained in the Catechism this way.
I. The Eucharist – Source and Summit of Ecclesial Life
1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.”134 “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”135
1325 “The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God’s action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit.”136
1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.137
1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: “Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.”138
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P3X.HTM#-1KX
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You might enjoy Elizabeth Anscombe’s paper On Transubstantiation. I think she explains clearly what the difference is between Reformed and Catholic teaching. She says:
“… what gets trans-signified in the Eucharist is not the bread and wine, but the body and blood of the Lord, which are trans-signified into food and drink. And that is the mystery.”
http://www.secondspring.co.uk/articles/anscombe.htm
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…and hi, AB. Yes, I at or even over the “on your honor” only 3 comments per day on any given post, so we shall see you in another thread until tomorrow if this thread is still alive. I thought it had kind of self destructed, but now it got interesting again.
Love to all of you, even or especially my dear brother D.G.H. Yes, I am praying for all of you and all of us. …and yes, this is a unique blog, so thanks DGH.
Well, really especially Tom, my real friend, and really fine musician and defender of the faith.
Y’all have Tom to thank for my virtual presence, here. He told me about you.
God bless us, every one,
Mrs. Webfoot
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Mrs. W.: Interesting paper. Thanks. Do you think that “trans-significant, that Christ’s body is changed into bread” is within the scope of the CCC? At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ’s Body and Blood.
I trust we can speak of Scripture anon.
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Webfoot,
Erik called you “sister,” Susan called me a “brother” on this thread, albeit of the separated kind, no doubt. Since you address me, here’s some of Machen on these fraternal sentiements:
If I had taken that trouble, I should have come to see plainly that what I should be doing is not to seek common ground between the roman Catholic and myself but simply to ask the Roman Catholic to become a Protestant and give up everything that he holds most dear.
. . . So to my mind the most inauspicious beginning for any discussion is found when the speaker utters the familiar words: “I think, brethren, that we are all agreed about this . . .” – and then proceeds to trample ruthlessly upon the things that are dearest to my heart.
Unfortunately, this admits that what’s “dearest to Machen’s heart” was not love of Jesus, but of his Reformed doctrine. [Mr. Cagle’s definition of “church”-as-right doctrine was a similar unintentional admission.]
The point of this very good essay is that that’s wrong-headed.
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/06/the-reformation-wrongly-blamed
Mebbe somebody around here will actually read it instead of just commenting on it.
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TVD, I read it this morning, it’s long.
It’s not overly provactive, but it’s passes my review. This is not something Christians disagree over:
Better this morning was Golf in the Modest Republic by Jeffrey Polet, where OLTS’s very own Zrim got a word in edgewise back in 2009, avid golfer that he is.
Just sayin’
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Like I said, the romanists don’t know what they are talking about and can’t hold up their end of the convo.
For that Mrs. W thinks I am rude.
Whatever.
Before she went off on the real presence she was complaining about prots beating on a strawman ever since the Reformation about the mass being a sacrifice for sin.
So we go to the RC catechism now for the third time and what does it say:
ARTICLE 3
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
V. The Sacramental Sacrifice: Thanksgiving, Memorial, Presence
The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner… this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”190 (1545
So yes, Mrs. W. is holding her own when it comes to propaganda and I am rude for pointing it out in the combox. Either that or the RCC is so weaselmouthed, you can’t tell what it says. If not both (the safest guess.)
As for John 6:47 – 58 proving the real presence, again note the methods of propaganda at work.
Somehow John 6:35 got left out of the picture. (As a baptist Mrs. W. ought to know that old canard by heart: A text out of context is a pretext.)
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Let the reader judge. Even before we arguably get to the sacrament – and at this stage of Jesus’s ministry, it is hardly in view – rather Christ says those who come to and believe in him, in Christ, shall never hunger or thirst.
Got that?
IOW how can it be any more obvious that Jesus is not literally talking about bread and drink, but literally about believing and having faith in him. To eat and drink Christ is to come to and believe in him, to be justified by faith rather than the carnal partaking of the Roman ex opere perversion of the sacrament.
But those who walk by sight – of all the pomp and circumstance of the Roman whore – do not walk by faith and in so doing they are stumbled by the gospel of free and sovereign grace.
Which is what we are seeing here. Repeatedly.
Of course we are rude (- and their comments are pretty much non responsive, i.e. they entirely miss the point, not only in the conversation, but concerning the gospel.) They’ve just been told in so many words on the basis of Scripture that they don’t believe/are not saved. Which is particularly grating to those who belong to the one true church.
But what else is new? This is ProtRefTheol. 101. If it wasn’t true, we would have no business being protestants, but would be the sinful schismatics that papists
rudelykeep accusing us of being.cheers
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vd, t, you’re a warrior child. welcome.
“So to my mind the most inauspicious beginning for any discussion is found when the speaker utters the familiar words: ‘I think, brethren, that we are all agreed about this'”
You’ve never pretended to agree with MEEEEE.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 16, 2015 at 8:35 am | Permalink
vd, t, you’re a warrior child. welcome.
“So to my mind the most inauspicious beginning for any discussion is found when the speaker utters the familiar words: ‘I think, brethren, that we are all agreed about this’”
You’ve never pretended to agree with MEEEEE.
It’s not all about you.
“Which Call?,” Epilogue: Church of Scotland goes gay.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32760416
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Jeff Cagle:
Mrs. W.: Interesting paper. Thanks. Do you think that “trans-significant, that Christ’s body is changed into bread” is within the scope of the CCC? At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ’s Body and Blood.
I trust we can speak of Scripture anon.>>>>>
I don’t know that it would be. That particular point interested me in relation to the Incarnation.
I would be glad to listen to what your understanding of Scripture is, Jeff. You read the article I suggested. Now, I will listen to your explanation of the cards you played.
Take care, Jeff
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vd, t, “Church of Scotland goes gay.”
Like Roman Catholic seminaries in the U.S.
Not like there’s anything wrong with that.
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@ Mrs. W: In brief, I would argue that when Jesus says unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you, He is using eating and drinking as a metaphor for belief.
Here are the textual reasons.
(1) Logically: Jesus makes eating the flesh and drinking the blood a necessary condition for eternal life (“unless you eat … and drink … you have no life.”). And yet, He also makes belief a sufficient condition for eternal life. (“Whoever believes … has life”, spoken 2x).
To be completely formal, if E is “eating and drinking”, L is “has eternal life”, and B is “believes”, then Jesus’ words are
~E -> ~L (“unless you eat, you have no life”)
E -> L (“whoever eats has life”)
B -> L (“whoever believes has life”)
Hence, it necessarily follows that B -> E, believing automatically entails eating. There is no-one who has believed who has not (already) eaten. Whence they must be the same action, for otherwise there might be someone who has believed, but not eaten.
That’s the logical angle.
As a side snark, do you believe that a Catholic must have had communion at least once in order to be saved? If not, then you aren’t taking Jesus’ words completely literally…
(2) As the text unfolds, the disciples understand Jesus to be talking about belief. Notice their words:
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
There is no talk of “we have eaten your flesh” or “we would like to eat your flesh.” Peter understands that Jesus is referring to belief.
And while Peter is often wrong, and is rebuked, in the gospels, here Jesus does not rebuke or even correct his understanding. Instead, he rebukes Judas the unbeliever.
So that’s the textual “reading comprehension” angle
(3) Now zoom out to the theological. If Jesus is saying that one must literally eat of the substance of His body and His blood in order to have eternal life, then the Athanasian creed is wrong.
Why?
For the creed says that Jesus is
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
Human flesh cannot be in multiple places at once, and certainly not without depleting its source. In order for Jesus’ flesh to do what Catholics claim, it must be the case that His flesh partakes of the divine property of omnipresence. And yet Jesus’ body is human, not confusing the substance of God with the substance of man. While transformed by the Spirit so as to be deathless, it is nevertheless not divine, but is rather like ours will be in the eschaton. His body is not omnipresent.
For those reasons, I understand the text of John 6 to be unambiguously referring to “belief” when it speaks of “eating the flesh and drinking the blood.”
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More textual argument.
Matt 26: Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Note how Jesus describes the cup. First, He describes it as “this is my blood of the covenant” (Luke, 1 Cor: “this is the covenant in my blood”).
Then He says, “I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine…”
If it were the case that the wine had transubstantiated, it would no longer be the fruit of the vine.
—
Finally, we note that Jesus’ body and blood had not yet been sacrificed at the time He makes this declaration.
Conclusion: There is every reason to believe that Matthew and Luke are presenting Jesus’ words as metaphor.
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Not only the laity have issues:
Can you still hide behind the episcopate after drinking the kool aid?
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 16, 2015 at 10:37 pm | Permalink
vd, t, “Church of Scotland goes gay.”
Like Roman Catholic seminaries in the U.S.
Nice try there, Butch, but a clever fellow like yourself–even the dullest of your co-religionists–can tell the difference between sin behind closed Catholic doors and Presbyterianism making it official policy.
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vd, t, at least Presbyterians are honest about who’s Butch. Violating 2 commandments is 2 mortal sins.
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D. G. Hart
Posted May 20, 2015 at 9:27 pm | Permalink
vd, t, at least Presbyterians are honest about who’s Butch. Violating 2 commandments is 2 mortal sins.
That doesn’t really make any sense, Dr. Hart. You’re giving the Church of Scotland praise for being “honest” about institutionalizing gay marriage?
Maybe you should do a post about that, how Presbyterianism’s “honesty” in institutionalizing homosexuality makes it better than Catholicism. And I’m especially anxious to see how your crew manages to justify it.
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Robert M. Woods apparently hasn’t heard of Bryan and the Jasons paradigm:
CTC is a call disembodied from the body of Christ as it walks on this planet.
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