Can someone explain to me how you look at the Roman Catholic Church as a poor church for the poor? It’s as if Roman Catholicism was the Italian version of the Amish, and oh, isn’t so remarkable how different those believers live, how unattached they are to worldly things, how unencumbered they are by maintaining large institutions and edifices.
What set me off today was a piece about the humble homes in which John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis grew up. Fine. They may have had humble origins, but did the live on the streets of Rome outside Vatican City while occupying the office of pope? If indeed the papacy is an office, which it is, and the office transcends the man, then the phrase “papal apartment” should go with the residence of the Bishop of Rome, not the family residence back in the day of the man who occupies the office.
And to add a few pounds-per-square-inch to my tight jaws, Vatican News reported — aren’t journalists supposed to ask hard questions — gleefully Francis’ speech in which he distinguishes the common good from prosperity:
Francis then explained the difference between common good and prosperity. “It is so easy for us to become accustomed to the atmosphere of inequality all around us, with the result that we take it for granted. Without even being conscious of it, we confuse the ‘common good’ with ‘prosperity’, especially when we are the ones who enjoy that prosperity. Prosperity understood only in terms of material wealth has a tendency to become selfish, to defend private interests, to be unconcerned about others, and to give free rein to consumerism. Understood in this way, prosperity, instead of helping, breeds conflict and social disintegration; as it becomes more prevalent, it opens the door to the evil of corruption, which brings so much discouragement and damage in its wake.”
Again, what about consumerism in Rome, Vatican Museum shops, the postcards at the Vatican post office? Or what about the inequality between Vatican City and its residential neighbors? Or what about your own material well-being, and the fact that people treat the pope like royalty (which the popes themselves cultivated)? I understand that Pope Francis is trying to do without the papal grandeur. But is he flying coach?
If you don’t see that you may stand implicated in your own words, isn’t that a sign of limousine liberalism?
Here’s a financial overview of the Vatican: http://fortune.com/2014/08/14/this-pope-means-business/
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Another meaning to poor church:
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Vicar of Christ.
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Wow.
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Wowest.
How many championships have the Yankees won? How many converts draw comfort from being big?
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In other news, the “superior paradigm” continues to produce people who openly flaunt stated RC teaching, and nothing is done about it:
https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/parents-outraged-after-teacher-is-fired-because-123657836257.html
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It really is hypocritical for the pope to be lambasting free-market capitalism in the name of Christ while he sits on untold treasures. But somehow everyone gives them a pass.
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Which suggests, DGH, that they no longer sell indulgences because they simply don’t have the need.
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times sure have changed and Paul, (who did not use his right to cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ) would be amazed… sure if one sows spiritual things in you, it is not too much if one reap material things from you (1 Cor 9:11-12) …. but …sheesh
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Maybe there will be a special Vatican edition on the Preachers of L.A. series.
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What you write here makes me want to wretch. I do not understand you. The secularists are ready to go in for the kill, and you continue to rail against the Catholic Church. Sick.
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Mermaid, the Reformation isn’t over. boo!
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Webfoot,
It is RCs driving this, not secularists.
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Not so poor church for the poor.
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A different kind of poverty.
When will the Callers get the call?
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Is the pope considering a move to the Salone camp?
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Does Pope Francis need to visit Cologne?
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Where is the Bishop of Rome’s compassion for the Romans?
Sometimes the rich church (Apostolic Palace anyone?) has to step up for the middle class.
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Pope-mobile liberalism:
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DG –
Re: Cologne
Of the 3.35b euros, 1/3rd is hard (mostly property) and 2/3 non-tangible investments (so roughly 2.2b). If these non-tangible investments are compared to a US university endowment, it would barely make the top 40. Harvard has over 12 times as much.
Cologne took in 573m in the gov-imposed “church tax.” Note that the “Church Tax” is more a Germanic thing than a Catholic thing- from Switzerland to Iceland, 1-2% of income. Lutherans and Calvinists “benefit” from it as well.
By 2k theology, what’s worse – a national church (Presbyerian Church of Scotland), state church (Church of England), having the authorities distribute tax money to churches (Germanic system), state ownership of church property (France, Italy), or a legal system acknowledging church authority in defining morality as the basis of law (not sure who still does this)?
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Kevin, you left out the worst — church as state — Vatican City and the former papal states.
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DG – the former papal states
Been to Ferrara? I’ll take it over Glasgow any day.
Or even Zurich – no matter Zurich’s high standard of living and my 6-generation-back Swiss Reformed family ties.
Although it appears Zurich has for some time had more Catholics than Reformed (possibly more atheists than either).
Wish I could read more than the abstract – I’m not in the academia club, unfortunately.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=234803&fileId=S1062798704000286
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Kevin, there you go, waving the Yankees pennants. Whatever happened to poor church for the Glaswegians?
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D. G. Hart
Posted August 12, 2015 at 9:49 pm | Permalink
Kevin, there you go, waving the Yankees pennants. Whatever happened to poor church for the Glaswegians?
Why not help him out accessing the paper, Dr. Hart? The man is searching for truth.
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Dg-
You have a counter-argument (which I admittedly tried to forestall with the Zurich religious demos)-
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Zurich was a Calvinist city for centuries (I don’t know that this is true, but suspect it is)- its social order and economic success combined with a high level of culture- practically unparalled in Europe- can as fairly be attributed to its religion as Ferrara’s can to the RCC.
Further, the Catholics came late to the city, and whatever benefits individuals brought, they were building on what was already present. Something like half the Catholics there aren’t even Swiss citizens.
And what does Ferrara really have on Zurich? How could a city be much more succesful than Zurich in this life?
Finally, paralleling Glasgow and Ferrara is hardly fair. Ferrara was at the center of Europe’s trade paths when it was being built- which, by the way, was quite a long time ago (what have you done lately except provide socialist theorists?). Glasgow was a fringe city in the European context, and specifically one which grew on trade with the colonies / US. At least pick fair parallels.
And what’s the problem with Glasgow anyway?
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I’m not fully convinced, but it’s a decent argument, no? Really, what impact did the switch to Reformed religion hhave where it was firmly entrenched for centuries on city life? Where is the Reformation strongest today- does it dominate any cities in a relatively pure (‘strict subscriptionist’?) form?
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Kevin, it seems to me the question is what happens to Christianity post Constantine. How does religion fare when the magistrate no longer patronizes it (post 1789)? At that point, it’s not so much cities or polities as demographics. How many people in the citizenry are Christian or Protestant or Reformed or Methodist and do demographics in a democratic society wind up shaping that society in some sense? Indonesia is less than 10% Christian and plus 80 % Muslim. The U.S. is just the reverse. I suspect that some of the differences between Indonesia and the U.S. owe to percentages of the population even though both have been part of the developments of colonialism and imperialism.
Your question has much more to do with the situation between 1550 and 1750 when confessional states still existed. But we’re not there now (even though plenty of modern Protestants and Roman Catholic pine for golden ages).
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DG-
it’s not so much cities or polities as demographics
It makes me wonder why systematic polling wasn’t invented much earlier.
But are there still urban or rural areas of Europe where strict subscriptionists exist in relatively high numbers or densities? The Netherlands, Southeast Germany, Switzerland, Hungary? Or has the Reformed religion in these countries gone at least partly the way of PCUSA?
At the very least, are there any European Universities or other institutions you would say stays faithful to the 3 Forms of Unity?
Are there any specific larger religious bodies in this category, perhaps with a significant educational presence? The Econe (where the SSPX’s HQ is located) of the Reformed, if you like.
And does ‘strict subscriptionist’ indicate NAPARC but exclude PCUSA on grounds of, well, observancy?
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Kevin, modernity changes everything. I don’t know enough about Europe to give examples.
But I would ask you to consider that Protestant colleges that are generally conservative are far more Protestant than Roman Catholic universities are Roman Catholic. Why is it that the latter hire non-Roman Catholics? Hiring RC’s at evangelical colleges is unheard of.
The point is not to assert Protestant superiority. It is to suggest how much modernity (and the university is a very modern institution) affects “tradition” religion.
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Tourism back in the day.
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Underground Pilgrim is not buying poor church for the poor:
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So it’s a poor church because its annual budget is half Notre Dame’s and its banks assets are only in the billions:
#shrugsalwayssilencereform
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Even the poor church for the poor has to worry about laying off its own staff and calculates accordingly:
Poor church for the poor has to pay the bills just like those greedy capitalists.
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