The discussion of Larycia Hawkin’s situation continues.
Rod Dreher thinks Wheaton is right to protect its theological borders since it has refused employment to Roman Catholics:
Wheaton does police its margins carefully. Catholics are not allowed to teach there, not because Wheaton’s leadership think Catholics are bad people, but because they do not believe a faithful Catholic can affirm the institution’s standards. If I were a professor, as an Orthodox Christian, I couldn’t teach there either. Do I think that is excessive? Probably. But I admire Wheaton’s willingness to take a hard stand, even when they are mocked by outsiders. It requires the kind of courage and confidence that one doesn’t often see among Christian churches and institutions these days, and that will be desperately needed in the years to come, by all of us.
But Noah Toly, one of the first Wheaton faculty wonders if the goal posts move when Wheaton talks about theological borders:
The standard to which Dr. Hawkins is being held is that of “theological clarity” in embodying the identity of the college and Statement of Faith. It is immensely important to recognize this. Faculty may hold various controversial positions within the bounds of the Statement of Faith. The more complex those positions, the more they demand a sort of clear articulation – otherwise, they invite misunderstanding. The standard of theological clarity is not, in and of itself, problematic. But the operationalization of that standard is fraught. (Adam Laats’ commentary on this is good, if slightly overstated.) Is the same level of nuance, subtlety, complexity, and elaboration required of everyone? Or, given the insistence that theological clarity is particularly important when we participate in various movements and initiatives, is the same level of nuance, subtlety, complexity, and elaboration required regardless of the political, social, and cultural affinities of those movements? Has the college itself transparently offered faculty and other constituents the same level of nuance, subtlety, complexity, and elaboration that now seems required of us?
Exactly. This is why I hope Wheaton does not eliminate Hawkins from its faculty. The college is mainly “evangelical,” but faculty have hardly agreed on the meaning of the institution’s minimalist statement of faith.
Dreher also invokes a piece by Alan Jacobs written almost a decade ago when Wheaton let go a faculty member who converted to Roman Catholicism. Jacobs wondered if Wheaton was wise to rely on its own brand of conservative Christianity:
…throughout much of American history and late into the twentieth century, evangelicals and Catholics had little to do with one another. They came, by and large, from different ethnic groups; they lived in different neighborhoods and even in different regions of the country; they went to different schools—in short, they were socialized into American culture in dramatically different ways. Throughout much of its history Wheaton College’s leaders would have reacted with horror at the thought of Catholics on the faculty—but they would have been highly unlikely to entertain that thought in the first place. Catholic scholars would have been equally unlikely to think of teaching at Wheaton. Duane Litfin is right to say that Wheaton is getting hammered for taking a position that, as recently as thirty years ago, scarcely anyone on either side of the Reformational divide would have questioned.
But times have changed. And here is where the correctness of Hochschild’s position comes in. He is not the only Catholic to look at Wheaton’s Statement of Faith and think, “Yes, that suits me very well.” Having served on hiring committees a number of times in Wheaton’s English department, I have seen dozens of applications from Catholic scholars who see nothing in Wheaton’s self-description that would rule them out.
But I sure wish Jacobs had considered where Roman Catholics may be coming from when looking at Wheaton’s doctrinal affirmation. After all, their bishops’ ecumenical discussions on justification have been with the most liberal sector of Lutheran communions:
Acting as it does as a summary and analysis of five decades of Lutheran-Catholic dialogue, 2015’s Declaration on the Way: Church, Ministry, and Eucharist will undoubtedly be a helpful touchstone in future ecumenical discussions between the two traditions. For that reason, the representatives of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Bishop’s Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) who authored the work are to be commended. The document is worthy of careful reading.
Of course, it is also important to note that the synthesis presented here represents an understanding of Lutheranism not necessarily shared by all churches who claim the name. The Lutheran side of these dialogues has been primarily represented by churches of the Lutheran World Federation (LWF). Other Lutheran churches, like those represented by the International Lutheran Council (ILC), may not agree in every respect with the Lutheran position as presented in these past dialogues, even as they praise other elements of the discussions.
Meanwhile, the bishop responsible for identifying doctrine infallibly helped to produce a video that has him walking along side religious expressions far more objectionable than the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
So Francis melts all the way down to Lennon and McCartney, all we need is love. Are all the trads singing along? Love , love, love is all we need. Think with your papal audacity, trads and he ain’t in Malta, of this you can be certain. Love is all, love is all we need, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Sean,
Yes I for one feel the Westboro approach to ecumenism is a promising way forward.
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I maybe a simpelton, but I believe in simplicity.
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James Young the manichean. It’s either the pope or Westboro Baptist.
After seeing that video don’t you feel like crawling into a hole (without your blankie)?
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Clete, it’s ok. You can be part of the prophetic chaos. It’s ignatian after all. Francis will affirm your dissension. This was part of the Vat Ii elevation of religious conscience and lay charism. Let your buzzcut flag fly.
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Clete, of course, he did send Burke to Malta, so, maybe just mumble under your breath.
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Darryl,
Why would this video make me crawl into a hole? Havent you read the history of the RCC and past popes? THINK
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well…. maybe any ‘bad advice’ or ‘bad information’ (other post) will be cleared up this year
one way or another…
at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 210 -11
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23
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James Young, So you really are a fool for the — wait for it — Bishop of Rome.
I had THOUGHT better of you. Look where charity takes you.
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Okay, 30 years ago seems long. But even then Gordon College knew that Protestantism was different from Roman Catholicism. From Gordon College’s explanation of terminating Thomas Howard from the faculty:
So what’s up with Islam?
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I too hope that Hawkins retains her position. Perhaps it’s also time for Ryken and Jones to go the way of Chip Kelly. These two clowns have shown an amazing lack of administrative deft in handling this issue.
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Why Wheaton wouldn’t look to the Vatican for help:
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Bobby, don’t you mean Jeff Lurie?
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Pope Francis,
Since I’m a child of God already, then I can believe whatever I want. Thank you for that confirmation.
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Salvation outside the church:
But what if these persons did not reduce their carbon footprint?
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Does Pope Francis need more philosophy?
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and ‘course certain ‘bad advice’ or ‘bad information’ or vague-ery may help preserve the physical body …who wants to die……
“He was devoted to preaching Christianity. That’s why the militants killed him,” he said.”
http://www.christianpost.com/news/islamic-state-executes-christian-convert-154483/
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Dr. James White ( Alpha and Omega Ministries and elder at Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church ~ 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith), posted a Dec. 22, 2015 Dividing Line “Do Christians and Muslims WORSHIP the same God?” Dr. White provides an in depth discussion, and I am sure you are aware that Dr. White is a major apologetic debater.
Wheaton said,”No,” and that was an appropriate statement they took. Of course, they have been accused of religious bigotry and everything else in the process, and I want to explain to my Muslim friends why that is not religious bigotry at all. It is simply maintaining consistent Christian biblical beliefs. One thing is for certain, the question should force many Christians to consider just how central the Trinity is to their worship.
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When you insist on saying “the church” (instead of churches) and then teach that this “the church” administers “the means of grace”, then it becomes pretty important to say which church is the church. And pretty cool that a college does not distribute grace.
http://www.the-highway.com/articleApr06.html
Michael J. Glodo—With which of the following statements are you in greater agreement?
1. “Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God.”
2. “Away from the church one cannot hope for any forgiveness of sins or any salvation.”
For the average evangelical Christian the first statement may lack some balance, but the second sounds downright Romish. If this describes your reaction, then your ecclesiology is closer to the author of the first, Lenny Bruce, than to the author of the second, John Calvin (Institutes 4.1.1).
“Bruce, satirist of organized religion and nemesis to hypocrisy, a comedian notorious for his vulgarity and impiety, nevertheless expressed a common contemporary assessment of organized religion, while Calvin’s statement seemed to betray his role as one of the primary catalysts of the Protestant Reformation.”
Glodo—The person who says, “I’m a member of the Kingdom of God, not organized religion” is inherently contradictory. How do we know that such a person is truly converted? For that matter, how does he or she know? They have refused Christ’s appointed administration of his Kingdom and, thus, stand apart from his kingship.
Glodo–For this reason, one cannot possess assurance of salvation indefinitely if he remains outside of the Church . He may have saving faith, but have none of Christ’s means of assuring him of it. Paul wrote, “But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother” (Galatians 4:26, NASV). Hence, Cyprian wrote, “No one has God as his father without the Church as his mother.”
mcmark—But isn’t this concern about individual assurance of salvation way too revivalistic and baptist in the first place. Why do we need to bother asking for some “profession of faith” from one parent when we already know a child has descended from earlier generations of those who have been given grace by means of water?
Luke 2: 48 When His parents saw Him, they were astonished, and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for You.” 49 “Why were you searching for Me?” He asked them. “Didn’t you know that I had to be in My Father’s house?”
Luke 3: 8 Don’t start saying to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones!
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According to the anti-puritanism of old school Kuyperians, we need less discretion by college and church leaders, so that church courts (and college faculty decisions) are done by the book.
William Young—Thesis V: Doctrinal knowledge and ethical conduct according to the Word of God are sufficient for the Christian life, without any specific religious experience of conviction of sin and conversion, or any need for self-examination as to the possession of distinguishing marks of saving grace.
Hyper-Covenantism is marked by the neglect of, and even hostility to, experimental religion. For an understanding of what this entails, we must distinguish between what is objective and what is subjective in religion. The opening sentences of the preface to Archibald Alexander’s classic, Thoughts on Religious Experience, state this distinction clearly and concisely: “There are two kinds of religious knowledge which, though intimately connected as cause and effect, may nevertheless be distinguished. These are the knowledge of the truth as it is revealed in the Holy Scriptures, and the impression which that truth makes on the human mind when rightly apprehended.”
Young— British Calvinists sometimes warn against holding the “doctrines of grace” without the “grace of the doctrines,” a warning identical in content with that of the inspired apostle in II Tim. 3:5. The historic Calvinist distinction and correlation of the Word and the Spirit, so eloquently enunciated by Calvin in Institutes I.ix, comes to expression in an emphasis on a subjective experience of grace rooted in the truth revealed in Scripture. In opposing Anabaptist fanaticism, Calvin did not err by reacting to an opposite extreme of denying or disparaging experimental religion.
Young— Kuyper also refrained from adopting such an extreme repudiation of experimental religion. His followers, however, in their opposition to Anabaptism have not always been successful in maintaining as balanced a view as that of their master. The presumptivist view has encouraged talk about the covenant which, if it does not quite rule out in theory experimental religion, in practice discourages it by laying exclusive emphasis on doctrine and morals.
Young—If covenant children are to be regarded as regenerate, then there is no need to tell them, “Ye must be born again.” Indeed, it would appear that there would be no need for these words to be addressed to Nicodemus. A theoretical cleavage may be drawn between regeneration and conversion, but in practice the child will be regarded as already converted or as being gradually and imperceptibly converted. The practice of the Christian school and catechetical training will be determined by this view…..
http://www.westminsterconfession.org/the-doctrines-of-grace/historic-calvinism-and-neo-calvinism.php
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McMark,
Wow. To borrow from a sage, ‘you so crazy!’ I wonder if you post stuff like that just to see how many times you can make ones head spin before it pops off.
That article was interesting: regarding the term ‘experimental religion’, I must admit it makes my hackles rise but gets my adrenaline flowing at the same time.
I loved where it stated that it’s the hyper-covs that display antinomian tendencies.
Classic.
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Today’s piece in Time reveals some email communications that make the Wheaton administration look pretty bad. I think it’s time to bring in DOJ.
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Bobby – The DOJ? The totalitarian impulse is strong in you. Should the Feds get called in on everyone you find “creepy?”
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dgh—“Exactly. This is why I hope Wheaton does not eliminate Hawkins from its faculty. ”
Like me, Hart wants “evangelicals” to get worse, ie, to show themselves as they really are. But how can one still be “reformed” if one disdains all the attempts of Mike Horton and Carl Truman to move “evangelicals” back toward the old right direction? Calvin and :Luther did not merely try to reform “the Reformed”. They worked with the Magistrates to gradually reform the world.
http://time.com/4174229/wheaton-college-larycia-hawkins-muslim-facebook/
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If you want to be ecumenical with some folks, then you can’t be ecumenical with other folks. And if you don’t want to speak peaace to Muslims, then you need to be prepared to kill them. The Calvinist International explains to us why sending your male children over there to kill Muslims is a little bit like Jesus dying for the sins of the elect.
https://calvinistinternational.com/2015/12/23/john-piper-guns-and-civic-responsibility/
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Mark, but if one considers eeeevangelicalism to be completely bankrupt (the e-word is now indicates a political category, as in “Donald Trump has x amount of the evangelical vote”), don’t those efforts start looking a little naive? And isn’t one significant difference between the magisterial reformation and now that we live in the age of disestablishment?
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McMark, no. I don’t Wheaton to look bad and that’s the only way this turns out if Hawkins goes. I live with a Wheatie. This is self-interest.
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zrim—the difference between the magisterial reformation and now that we live in the age of disestablishment?
mcmark—yes, being “reformed” is situation dependent on what you are trying to reform. So what counts as “Reformed” now is not what Calvin and Luther were trying to do. By way of analogy, asking for a profession of faith from one parent is not something Abraham or Moses ever did.
I do agree with Wedgeworth that Piper already gave up the farm when Piper agreed to “natural law” for cops and others who won’t leave the wrath to God. But then of course I agree with both Piper and Wedgeworth.
Wedgeworth– Piper grounds this claim, again, in a theology of exile, saying that the gospel calls us to live “as lambs in the midst of wolves.” ….. But if being a “lamb” does not preclude a Christian from joining the military or the police—if it does not preclude politics as such—then why should it preclude home defense?
Wegeworth—-Piper says, “Jesus died to keep that assailant from sinning against my family.”…. This is a conflation of the forensic and the transformative effects of the Cross, and it assumes that the Cross is a “personal strategy” for “crimes.”…..
mcmark—Well, yes, I don’t like any of that “multiple intentions for the cross” stuff either, when the death of Christ is not defined as the satisfaction of justice for the sins of the imputed to Christ, but “broadened” to include all kinds of other effects—like “making an offer” or “giving God permission to then judge sinners” or other nonsense. But I do find it ironic that Wedgeworth complains about other people confusing the forensic and the transformative. Does he think “the sacrament” is forensic? Does he think that “union with Christ” is forensic?
Wedgeworth—Wouldn’t this actually require that Jesus was giving us a new politics as such, again teaching an Anabaptist rather than Protestant view of Christian ethics?
mcmark—Does this mean that “protestant politics” is not Christian and not new? Jesus as redeemer has nothing to do with “Protestant” ethics, because only Jesus as creator has anything to do with “Protestant” ethics, and “natural law” works for Protestants and Muslims alike? I mean, as long as it’s not new (and not “anabaptist” in suggesting any present exile)…
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I don’t see evangelicalism diminishing. Rather, I see the TGC style of evangelicalism diminishing, and being replaced by something more like an Enns style of evangelicalism. The future of Presbyterianism looks a lot more like the EPC than anything else. And that’s probably not a good thing for Old Lifers, as your movement is largely parasitic off of TGC evangelicalism. You may whine about them, but you attend churches run by them.
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Wasn’t Gordon Clark, way back when, terminated from Wheaton for being, gasp, a Calvinist? Am I remembering that correctly?
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What is a follower of Pope Francis to do?
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Indifferentism and universalism afflict the Roman Catholic church (so why would you convert?):
What do you do when they also afflict the pope?
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So where do you find the pope’s video in the Catechism?
I get it about Vatican 2.
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Wheaton college trustees invited Buswell to become Wheaton’s third president (and first ever not named Blanchard). He was the youngest college president at 31 years old. Over the next 14 years, Buswell oversaw a significant period of growth in both numbers and academic rigor. He guided the college through the process of accreditation. However, Buswell’s staunch Calvinism, fundamentalist separatism, and his reportedly difficult temperament made his tenure uneasy. After years of contentious relations on campus, the Wheaton College board of trustees fired Buswell
George Marsden, Reforming Fundamentalism: Fuller Seminary and the New Evangelicalism
Tim Bayly—If a single book defines the OPC, I’d nominate “Christianity and Liberalism.” And let’s be honest and admit that the CT/Billy Graham/Wheaton crowd would never give birth to such a book–as they’d also never ever give birth to Galatians, for instance. Some want to emphasize the alchohol/tobacco/dispensational angle, demonstrating that the OPC isn’t pig-ignorant, legalistic, or narrow, culturally. Fine. But the heart of the OPC isn’t scotch-drinking, cigar smoking, kilt-wearing, aesthetes. There are many, many simple humble Christians who believe that the church must always be reforming, and most of them have never smoked or worn a kilt or said a word against dispensationalism.
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2008/02/pca-fundamentalist
Rick Phillips —“I have only recently made acquaintance with the Bob Jones style fundamentalists. (I really have no past with fundies, having been raised in a liberal presby context and having been nurtured since my conversion in the Northern Old School — Tenth Pres and WTS)…. My main reaction has been quite positive. Why? Because I have a higher affinity with what they stand for than I do with broad evangelicals. The BJU fundamentalists take the Bible seriously, they trust in the blood of Christ, they are committed to the pursuit of personal holiness, they are zealous in witnessing the gospel, and they have stood firm against gender egalitarianism.”
Rick P—(As an aside, I find that the main problems of the BJU fundamentalists are 1) an erroneous doctrine of sanctification, 2) a doctrine of separation from other Christians that is truly outrageous and extremely detrimental to themselves, and 3) a feudalistic ecclesiology of institutional control that is largely the result of #2.)
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How is it that the looser Pope Francis gets, the stronger the grip of apologists on papal audacity?
That’s not how Ronald Knox saw it:
For Mermaid, Susan, and James Young, the closer they look, the less they see.
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