David Strain makes a very good point about the doctrine of the two thingies:
If the Kingdom is not advanced by ‘the sword’, that is, by means of physical coercion, but the God ordained role of the civil magistrate is to use the sword to enforce the rule of law, how can the Christian’s work as a civil magistrate be the work of the Kingdom?
As part of my duty to follow Scott Clark’s marching orders on covenant theology, I’ll mention his post on parallels between the controversy over Federal Vision today and Machen’s contest with liberalism some eight decades ago:
Like the liberals and latitudinarians on the early 20th century the Federal Visionists of our times use similar tactics against the confessionalists. They have tried to silence the confessionalist critics through shame or through implied or express suggestions of ecclesiastical or professional pressure. When that doesn’t work, the other tactic is to suggest that the confessionalist critics are immoral or somehow disreputable. Just as in the case of Machen, the liberals and latitudinarians would rather have the churches focus on the ostensible bad behavior (or incorrect social views) of the confessionalists rather than upon the deviant doctrine or ecclesiastical practice of the theological revisionists.
When J. Gresham Machen was driven out of the PCUSA, the liberals and their latitudinarian accomplices did not “get him†on a doctrinal charge but on a charge of not playing nice with others. He refused to abandon his support for the Independent Board of Foreign Missions (confessionalists do care about the lost AND getting our theology right) so they charged and convicted him in a sham ecclesiastical trial of being disobedient to the church. In light of the developments, in the PCUSA, in the decades that followed the idea of trying and disciplining a minister for supporting an independent (non-denominational) missions agency is amusing but they were able to get away with it then because they had control of the levers of power and because they had the cooperation of the latitudinarians.
On further reflection about the idea of republication, how could the Westminster Divines have been by implication any clearer than when they wrote the Shorter Catechism? It goes like this:
Q. 39. What is the duty that God required of man?
A. The duty which God required of man was obedience to his revealed will.
Q. 40. What did God at first reveal to man for the rule of his obedience?
A. The rule which God at first revealed to man was the moral law.
Q. 41. Where in is the moral law summarily comprehended?
A. The moral law is summarily comprehended in the ten commandments.
Old Life 
Darryl
Would you agree with the assertion that whenever the law of God was given, reiterated or read before the people of God, they could not but help have been reminded of the covenant of works?
The law is a reflection of the holines and the will of God and thus has perpetual significance. It always requires obedience. Thus the resemblance of the content of Sinai and CoW (moral law)is indisputable. However, would you agree, that this does not necessitate that we take the covenantal arrangements at Sinai and the Garden to be of the same character?
Within the republication camp, you mention there might be some divergence of opinion. T David Gordon’s article articulates utter separation between Abraham and Moses stating “the Sinai covenant itself, as it was delivered by the hand of Moses 430 years
after the Abrahamic covenant, was a different covenant, different in kind, characteristically legal”. It seems to me that this leaves no room for the covenant of grace at Sinai, which many Klineans are clear is the substructure of Sinai. Is ths a fair comment?
Furthemore I’m wondering what else is going on in the republication camp that leads to an almost exclusive emphasis on works at Sinai. If the substructure of Sinai is grace, a point upon which most seem to agree, then I would expect greater discussion of the gracious elements of Sinai. From my limited reading of the histroy it seems that the good number of Reformed theologians who held to republication, spent most of their time dealing with the gracious elements of Sinai, and the works principle was largely viewed in terms of a “subservient covenant”, serving the purposes of the CoG. I concede, I may well have misread the republication camp on this. Are there other factors which lead to this emphasis?
Thanks
Matt
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Ant. But whether were the ten commandments, as they were delivered to them on Mount Sinai, the covenant of works or no?
Evan. They were delivered to them as the covenant of works.
Nom. But, by your favour, sir, you know that these people were the posterity of Abraham, and therefore under that covenant of grace which God made with their father; and therefore I do not think that they were delivered to them as the covenant of works; for you know the Lord never delivers the covenant of works to any that are under the covenant of grace.
Evan. Indeed it is true, the Lord did manifest so much love to the body of this nation, that all the natural seed of Abraham were externally, and by profession, under the covenant of grace made with their father Abraham; though, it is to be feared, many of them were still under the covenant of works made with their father Adam.
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Nom. Then, sir, it seems that the Lord did not renew the covenant of works with them, to the intent that they should obtain eternal life by their yielding obedience to it?
Evan. No, indeed; God never made the covenant of works with any man since the fall, either with expectation that he should fulfil it, 21 or to give him life by it; for God never appoints any thing to an end, to the which it is utterly unsuitable and improper. Now the law, as it is the covenant of works, is become weak and unprofitable to the purpose of salvation; 22 and, therefore, God never appointed it to man, since the fall, to that end. And besides, it is manifest that the purpose of God, in the covenant made with Abraham, was to give life and salvation by grace and promise; and, therefore, his purpose in renewing the covenant of works, was not, neither could be, to give life and salvation by working; for then there would have been contradictions in the covenants, and instability in him that made them. Wherefore let no man imagine that God published the covenant of works on Mount Sinai, as though he had been mutable, and so changed his determination in that covenant made with Abraham; neither, yet let any man suppose, that God now in process of time had found out a better way for man’s salvation than he knew before: for, as the covenant of grace made with Abraham had been needless, if the covenant of works made with Adam would have given him and his believing seed life; so, after the covenant of grace was once made, it was needless to renew the covenant of works, to the end that righteousness of life should be had by the observation of it. The which will yet more evidently appear, if we consider, that the apostle, speaking of the covenant of works as it was given on Mount Sinai, says, “It was added because of transgressions,” (Gal 3:19). It was not set up as a solid rule of righteousness, as it was given to Adam in paradise, but was added or put to; 23 it was not set up as a thing in gross by itself.
Nom. Then, sir, it should seem that the covenant of works was added to the covenant of grace, to make it more complete.
Evan. O no! you are not so to understand the apostle, as though it were added by way of ingrediency as a part of the covenant of grace, as if that covenant had been incomplete without the covenant of works; for then the same covenant should have consisted of contradictory materials, and so it should have overthrown itself; for, says the apostle, “If it be by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace: but if it be of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work,” (Rom 11:6). But it was added by way of subserviency and attendance, the better to advance and make effectual the covenant of grace; so that although the same covenant that was made with Adam was renewed on Mount Sinai, yet I say still, it was not for the same purpose. For this was it that God aimed at, in making the covenant of works with man in innocency, to have that which was his due from man: 24 but God made it with the Israelites for no other end, than that man, being thereby convinced of his weakness, might flee to Christ. So that it was renewed only to help forward and introduce another and a better covenant; and so to be a manuduction unto Christ, viz: to discover sin, to waken the conscience, and to convince them of their own impotency, and so drive them out of themselves to Christ. Know it then, I beseech you, that all this while there was no other way of life given, either in whole, or in part, than the covenant of grace. All this while God did but pursue the design of his own grace; and, therefore, was there no inconsistency either in God’s will or acts; only such was his mercy, that he subordinated the covenant of works, and made it subservient to the covenant of grace, and so to tend to evangelical purposes.
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DGH:
Re: the shorter catechism. There is a big difference in 17th century Reformed theology between the law “as a rule for obedience” and the “law as a covenant of works.” Only the latter, properly speaking, would consitute a republication of the covenant of works. This distinction is clear enough in WCF 19:1-2 and 19:6 (law “as a covenant of works” vs. the law as “a perfect rule of righteousness”). See pages 83ff of the KERUX review for some argumentation on this point, where they make a pretty good case (in my opinion) for this. The catechism is arguing for a republication of the moral law, not a republication of the covenant of works (by implication or otherwise). These are quite different things (at least to 17th century Westminster-era theologians [as well as 18th century theologians], as they make clear in their primary documents). To fail to distinguish these things (as the divines did) is to muddle what they usually made very clear.
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One major difference: the courts of the PCUSA were stacked with liberals. The courts of the PCA and OPC are by no means stacked with Federal Visionaries. So the pressure exerted by the liberals was quite real. Liberals in JGM’s day had the ability through synod action to force a congregation to accept a pastor they did not want.
The pressure exerted by FV’s seems to be of much smaller magnitude.
Another major difference: The FV’s position is that it is returning to Calvin’s original vision of federal theology, one that upholds the visible church as the locus of God’s work.
The liberal position was quite different; they were using supposed natural revelation as a tool to upend special revelation. Doctrinal progress and semper reformanda were the mantras. Rationality, not supernaturalism, was the order of the day.
(Interestingly, the FV also take up semper reformanda, but by it they mean an emphasis on the fullness of the sacraments in the sense of magnifying the supernatural activity in the action of baptism and of communion.)
So while the parallels are interesting, the play is not the same.
(Just explaining, not defending).
JRC
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In response to David Strain, he does great right up till the last paragraph:
Tha’s what I’m sayin’
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Jeff,
In response to David Strain, he does great right up till the last paragraph…
You’re going to think this is so way predictable (that’s a Presbyterian virtue though), but I think Strain’s point is pretty clear and immensely helpful: there are two kingdoms, one civil and the other spiritual and both comport under Jesus’ rule. The former is ruled by law and advanced by power, the latter is ruled by grace and is advanced by weakness. The believer is in that precarious position of having as foot in both, but if he wants to call his police work “kingdom work,†and if by “kingdom work†he means “kingdom of God work†instead of “kingdom of man†work, then he’ll be setting his captives free, which is actually really bad police work. Contrariwise, a pastor should be policing his congregation to see whom he can lock up instead of set free, which is pretty bad pastoring.
The best of both worlds is a believing cop who locks up criminals by day and sets captives free at night on home visits as an elder. Instead of calling it “kingdom work,†he can just say he’s carrying out his vocations the way God designed them. And I don’t know why a “plethora of kingdoms†is such a problem. You’re a butterfly guy, right? The only way to distinguish the Monarch from the Emerald Aguna is if we follow the dictates of natural law instead of special revelation. That was DVD’s point in his recent lecture at WSCal, that there are all kinds of kingdoms in the temporal beyond the State. Which makes sense to me. As a sociology minor I had an amateur theory of “households†but it’s the same idea: we all belong to a whole host of households or spheres (race, sex, martial status, northerner/southerner, American/European, healthy/sick, son/daughter, Neil Diamond fan/Neil Diamond hater), and all those households are ruled by law…not grace. Only the church is ruled by grace. Some talk about “hyphenated- or situated-Christians†which is also helpful.
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Being a Neil Diamond fan, of course, should be regulated by law and not grace. *rimshot*
Strain’s point is clear, certainly. It is helpful to 2k-ers as a way to articulate their side of things. It is, however, not a compelling argument to move a non-2ker OR a non-van-Drunen-2ker over into your camp.
That is, as an argument that aims to grab ahold of me and compel me to become his strand of 2k by virtue of my own assumptions, it doesn’t work.
That said, it was a clever rhetorical piece.
So van Drunen holds to a multiplicity of kingdoms?
JRC
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And anyways, I think that fixing the Oldlife threading system should be considered kingdom work.
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So van Drunen holds to a multiplicity of kingdoms?
Here:
http://www.wscal.edu/conference2010/
“The second thing I would note—and I think this is really significant—is that God has created other social institutions, other cultural institutions which have legitimate authority of their own, and government has no authority to take their authority away from them.â€
Granted, this is to make the larger point about “limited government,†but the interesting thing is that he is also making a point about sphere sovereignty. And an implication about sphere sovereignty is that there are multitudinous “kingdoms†that function the same way any civil sphere does—by law, and by implication, not grace. In the panel discussion (which I cannot locate, sorry), he makes another very good point about how we cannot take the idea of sphere sovereignty without two-kingdom theology. From Stellman:
This issue came up again in the Q&A session, at which time Dr. VanDrunen insisted that as Reformed believers we should be able to have our cake and eat it too, holding to both a two-kingdoms model as well as retaining sphere sovereignty. If we adopt the former only, we can end up collapsing the entire cultural kingdom into a one all-embracing category like the state (with its tendency toward tyranny). On the other hand, if we propound a sphere-sovereignty approach only, we can fall into the error of seeing the church as simply one of many institutions through which Christ exercises kingship, thus trivializing the sacred order. But if we embrace each concept we can have the best of both worlds, with the civil kingdom being understood to be much broader than merely the state, but also including the arts and sciences, sports, and education.
In other words, the only institution that lives by grace and not law is the church.
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Jeff, the quote is at about 30:55 minutes in.
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Eutyches’s Bane,
Both your comment and the pages that you cited to in the Kerux review argue against a straw man. Both attempt to refute the doctrine of republication by claiming that it teaches the Covenant of Works was republished per se. That’s not what the doctrine teaches.
Note how the Introduction to The Law is Not of Faith explains how WCF 19.1 and 19.2 support the doctrine:
“In this regard, the divines saw that the law given to Adam was of a piece with that given to Israel at Sinai. In other words, in some sense, the covenant of works was republished at Sinai. It was not republished, however, as the covenant of works per se, but as part of the covenant of grace, which pointed to the person and work of Christ. In terms of the classic threefold distinction on the uses of the law, the republication of the covenant of works falls under the pedagogical use of the law, that which drives the sinner to Christ by bringing the requirement for perfect obedience before the fallen creature, forcing him to turn to the only one who has been obedient….” (Page 11).
You and the Kerux authors are arguing against a bogey man of your own invention.
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Couldn’t resist this. John Frame v. Kerux. Interesting comment by Frame, an ally of the Escondido guys? 😉
http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/99732.qna/category/th/page/questions/site/iiim
Vern
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It’s an interesting idea, Zrim.
The problem is that Jesus calls us to leave everything for the sake of His kingdom. So where do we locate that command, if the kingdom is found solely in the church? Doesn’t that re-establish the dividing wall between sacred and secular callings?
Or putting it on the other side of things, which items in our church budget count as money spent furthering the ministry of the church?
It’s those kinds of questions that lead me to believe that God’s kingdom cannot be neatly delineated into church only.
We recall that Calvin’s two kingdoms were “spiritual” and “physical”, not “church” and “culture.”
JRC
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Vern, you probably knew this already, but I think Frame’s point is not to form alliances:
“In recent Reformed history, we have had these partisan battles over Van
Til’s apologetics (and now, different schools of Van Tillian apologetics), common
grace, the incomprehensibility of God, supra-/infralapsarianism, theonomy, the
relation between grace and law in the covenants, Shepherd’s view of justification,
nouthetic counseling, exclusive Psalmody, contemporary worship, means of
church growth, redemptive-historical preaching. None of these is resolved in our
Reformed confessions, but partisans act as if they were. They think their view
alone is orthodox, and their opponents are dangerous heretics. Can’t we just
lighten up a bit? Can we never admit our fallibility? Is there not a place, on some
issues, for teachability, even tolerance? Can’t we ever agree to disagree in peace
and love, working together on those matters where we agree?”
Of course, upholding the ideal is harder than articulating it. Nevertheless, I think he’s right.
JRC
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Hi Jeff,
Earlier, you posted, “We recall that Calvin’s two kingdoms were “spiritual†and “physicalâ€, not “church†and “culture.â€
In 3.19.15 of the Institutes, Calvin says, “Therefore, in order that none of us may stumble on that stone, let us first consider that there is a twofold government in man: one aspect is spiritual, whereby the conscience is instructed; the second is political, whereby man is educated for the duties of humanity and citizenship that must be maintained among men….The one we may call the spiritual kingdom, the other, the political kingdom.” (Battles Translation).
Calvin’s distinctions are closer to church and culture, than you may think. Calvin sees the church as the present institutional manifestation of the spiritual kingdom, which God rules as its redeemer, and government as one among many of the institutional manifestations of the civil or cultural kingdom, which God rules as creator and sustainer.
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RL:
Not sure why you are convinced it is a straw man. KERUX has in view not only the editors, but also RS Clark in view, who clearly is convinced that 19:1-2 teaches a full republication (see footnote 77). The review also references page 43 of LNF, not just page 11.
Even if I grant you your point for the quote on pg. 11, you still have to deal with pg. 43, and more especially, RS Clark. The fact is, several Klineans have argued from 19:1-2 that a person MUST hold to republication in order to be confessional. THAT argument (NOT the people who put it forth) is so wrong-headed, I am almost ready to call it stupid.
EB
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EB,
-“I am almost ready to call it stupid”
To insult people under a pseudonym isn’t very brave (or becoming). Own up to your statements and your opinions; be responsible for the things you say.
Matt
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Vern,
Thanks for the tip about Frame. He writes there: “However, among those who appreciate redemptive history there has also developed a rather sectarian, even fanatical group, namely those associated with the publication Kerux. These folks have developed rather fanciful ways of “finding Christ” in OT texts, and they oppose any attempt to “apply” Scripture or to use biblical characters as moral examples. Their sermons are often jargon-laden. Worse, they accuse anyone who disagrees with them of “moralism,” “legalism,” etc. Yours is not the first church that has suffered division over this issue, and I consider it shameful people have made a test of orthodoxy over such a half-baked theory.”
As always, he speaks his mind but I’m not sure it’s loving, you know, as in “Speaking the Truth in Love.”
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Mr. Bane, I don’t see the difference in chap. 19. It looks even more direct than the Shorter Catechism in favor of republication. 19.1 “God gave to Adam, a law, as a covenant of works. . . . 19.2 This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness and, as such, was deliverd by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments.”
You and Kerux may see a big difference, and you may claim one in the 17th century. Do you have the Holy Grail with the divines’ own cliff notes on the Standards?
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Jeff,
The courts of the 1920s were not packed with liberals. There were few liberals in the PCUSA outside New York (does anything good in American Presbyterianism come from New York?). The church was dominated by a moderate middle, neither confessional nor liberal, and some like Charles Erdman and Robert Speer, were known for their evangelicalism, and they turned out to be Machen’s biggest opponents.
BTW, if you’re going to cite Christ in favor of leaving everything for the kingdom so that the kingdom has to be bigger than the church, then are you going to cut out your eye the next time you look too long at an attractive girl? Hyperbole, dude!
Anyway, the church as a spiritual entity and the kingdom of Christ finds very good support in WCF 25.2, and in the Shorter and Larger Catechism on the second petition of the Lord’s Prayer.
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Matt Holst, I’m no specialist on republication so I’m not really the one to be asking. But at the root of the republication idea, as I understand it, is that Sinai is a type of the CoW, so by its very nature it is not of the same character.
As far as the law being gracious, it all depends on what you mean by grace. When I read the decalogue, with its demand for perfect perpetual obedience, I’m not entirely encouraged, unless it points me to Christ.
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The problem is that Jesus calls us to leave everything for the sake of His kingdom. So where do we locate that command, if the kingdom is found solely in the church? Doesn’t that re-establish the dividing wall between sacred and secular callings?
No, it makes the case for both authentic six-day labor and serious Sabbath day rest (antithesis) and against the flattening out of things. I suppose if one thinks “all of life is worship†and “worship as homeroom†is a good thing this all sounds pretty off. And Protestants aren’t monastic’s; just because the Kingdom of God is said to be solely located in the church it doesn’t mean that’s the only place to be 24/7. It’s the place to be one in seven. After all, the fourth commandment does say something about labor.
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Bane,
There is nothing damning on page 43 of the TLNF either. On that page Fesko argued that the formulations of the doctrine of republication as found in the work Calvin and Witsius were widely held among Reformers and post-Reformation theologians. Here’s the paragraph in full:
“One also finds the same legal characterization of the Mosaic covenant even in terms of the republication of the covenant of works, with the Westminster Confession bearing similarities to both Calvin and Witsius. The divines write that “God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works” (19.1) and that “this law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness, and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai” (19.2). While space does not permit a full-blown exposition of these points, it is nevertheless useful to see that Calvin’s and Witsius’s were certainly in the mainstream of Reformation and post-Reformation thought. So, then, whether in Calvin’s more grammatical-historical or Witsius’s more redemptive-historical hermeneutic, one finds that both were making essentially the same point with different emphases: the Mosaic covenant is unique in that it is legal in nature, demonstrating vis-a-vis the ordo salutis man’s inability to fulfill the demands of the law, which drives man to Christ, and in terms of the historia salutis, painting a typological portrait of Christ’s person and work.” (Emphasis added).
So, I don’t think there is anything to deal with on page 43. Honestly, TLNF is not nearly as controversial as the Kerux review makes it out to be. Several times the Kerux review comes very close to being libelous.
As to RSC’s view, the Kerux reviewers cite to a footnote of his in an article he wrote about preaching for a book about pastoral ministry. I’ve let someone borrow my copy of the Covenant, Justification, and Pastoral Ministry, so I can’t view the quote in context. Putting other quotes from the Kerux review in context have shown the reviewers to be either careless or dishonest or both, so I withhold judging RSC’s argument until I can read it in context.
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Hi RL,
Duly noted. Nevertheless, there is a subtle but important distinction between the two divisions, “spiritual and physical” v. “church and culture”. This distinction comes out in Calvin’s belief that the magistrate was obligated to the moral (but not civil) law from Sinai in his governance. The discussion in Inst. 4.20.15-16 is interesting … he comes very, very close to sounding like van Drunen, but with this one difference: for Calvin, the 10 Commandments is the rule, aim, and end of all laws: “Now, as it is evident that the law of God which we call moral, is nothing else than the testimony of natural law, and of that conscience which God has engraven on the minds of men, the whole of this equity of which we now speak is prescribed in it. Hence it alone ought to be the aim, the rule, and the end of all laws.”
Note that all laws ought to aim, for Calvin, at upholding the moral law.
JRC
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This part is not really the contentious part. The issue for me is the notion that Israel also positively merited their tenure in the land by relative obedience. I haven’t read Fesko yet, so I don’t know whether he holds this. But I can say that Kline did.
It is this notion of positive merit that … pushes on the boundaries? … of admitting human merit (as a works principle) before God.
JRC
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What is your opinion of the history given here? Are there any inaccuracies? The article gives the impression that Machen’s court in New Joisie was dominated by signers of Auburn and opposition to Machen’s doctrine. Would you dispute this?
Granted: Jesus uses hyperbole in his teaching. What makes you certain that Luke 14 or Matt 10 or Matt 19 is hyperbolic?
JRC
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Matt:
Well, I guess I tried to qualify the “stupid” statement as being directed at the argument, and not at the people. But apparently that didn’t soften it enough and it caused offense.
I should have thought more carefully before writing that. I retract it, and apologize to everyone whom I have offended or insulted by it.
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Jeff, Re:RL, you know, Calvin may sound like you think he does in an anti-2k way, but why don’t the critics of 2k ever sound like Calvin when he sounds like 2k? In other words, maybe the 2k folk are actually getting a part of the Reformed tradition that biblicists, transformationalists, and evangelicals entirely miss. But do 2kers miss the moral law, how could they if they think natural law overlaps largely with the moral law?
Regarding the Presbytery of New Jersey, it had signers of the Aub. Aff. It would be wrong to say that it was dominated by them. It would also be wrong to say that evangelicals like Erdman had problems with the Affirmationists.
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I agree with you, at least in general. Categories can be misleading, as you know.
Because they haven’t yet articulated a meta-ethic that allows one to “read” the natural law. It seems that they are just hoping that we’ll use the natural law and *poof* it will look like the decalogue.
Also, significantly, REPTers want the natural law to look like the 2nd table of the law only. That may or may not be a good thing, but it is a significant departure from Calvin that I think would be best to acknowledge upfront (it’s obscured by the “paleoCalvinist” slogan)
It’s hard to know the inner workings of the conference, but if we think of 1936 evangelicals as the mushy middle, it sure looks like the liberals carried the day in Machen’s trial. That, more than numbers, speaks to dominance. No?
Of course, we could also think of 1936 evangelicals as crypto-liberals, but that would simply make my point stronger.
I think your concern, though, is that evangelicals of today are opening the door to massive liberalism of tomorrow. In which case I would share the concern, at least as a live possibility.
JRC
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Jeff,
You asked, “What makes you certain that Luke 14 or Matt 10 or Matt 19 is hyperbolic?”
I don’t know if I’m certain that these passages are hyperbolic. But if they aren’t viewed as hyperbole, if they are viewed as literal, then isn’t Jesus reintroducing “positive merit” before God?
Luke 14:12-14: “And He [Jesus] also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, “When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and that will be your repayment. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
If you rake the leaves, you get an ice cream. If you invite the poor, you will be repaid at the resurrection.
In Matt 10:40-42, Jesus said: “Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. The one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and the one who receives a righteous person because he is a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.”
If you rake the leaves, you get an ice cream. If you give a little one a cup of cold water, you will not lose your reward.
Matt 19:16-22: “And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions”
This looks like a straight up republication of the covenant of works to me. Do this to receive eternal life. The obviously implied negative statement is that if the rich young man fails to do these things, he will not receive eternal life. Right?
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Even more so than Charles Eerdman and Speer the man who really stabbed J. Gresham Machen in the back in the 1930’s was Clarence McCartney.
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RL,
Good question. We might also add in here Josh 1.7-8 in which God tells Joshua that he will be successful (the Hebrew is singular at this point) if he keeps the law.
I would argue, as the Confession also does, that good works such as the ones you cite are evidences of faith and are rewarded because their source is in God Himself (cf. Eph. 2.10):
“Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblameable and unreproveable in God’s sight; but that He, looking upon them in His Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections. ” (WCoF 16.6).
So that far from being a reward on a merit principle, there is an entirely different principle going on here: the principle of grace that follows on salvation. It is significant that the crucial element for the acceptance of the works is “being accepted through Christ.”
It is clear (to me) that this is entirely different from a relative merit principle that would reward people, some unsaved, for partially meeting the stated standard.
Now, it may be that in Kline’s treatment of Gen 26 that he has in mind WCoF 16.6. Maybe not. But whether or no, it is unfortunate that he conflates this with a merit principle.
So we note that the mere presence of “if” does not indicate a merit principle at work. Instead, we have to consider the underlying principle as stated. In the case of Deut. 28, the underlying principle as stated is strict merit. In the case of the rich young ruler, it is less clear … I would appeal to Hebrews 3 and James 2 to help interpret this passage and say that the ryr is exhibiting a lack of faith.
JRC
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Jeff, where does the Bible command a meta-ethic for interpreting natural law. One important difference here is that 2kers are not anal. They really do trust that God is control, even when Saddam Hussein is ruling in Iraq. It seems that the 2k critics, the ones who want comprehensive, non-dualistic worldviews — the idealists and planners that traditionalist conservatives actually worry about because comprehensive outlooks so often wind up in ideology and utopianism — are the ones who can’t seem to believe that God is in control even when bad things happen to the Son of God on the cross.
And if 2kers want natural law to look like the second table of the law, they’re only following the 2k critics who somehow think the magistrate can convict for murder but not for blasphemy. Do I really need to trot out again without two kingdoms, two decalogues?
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Jeff:
I think that Jesus is presenting a strict-merit standard to the young ruler–He is republishing the covenant of works. That’s why Jesus can say that “There is only one who is good” in Matthew’s account and “No one is good except God alone” in Luke’s account. I think that Jesus’ republication of the covenant of works in this conversation serves the same goal that the republication served at Sinai: by bringing the requirement for perfect obedience before the fallen creature, the republication forces the creature to turn to the only one who has been obedient.
I want to withhold comment on Kline’s treatment of Gen 26. Having exchanged comments with you in the past, I sense that you have a particular work or passage of Kline’s in mind, and I’m willing to bet that you’ve cited to it in a previous post (probably in the comment section of the “Right Chronology, Wrong Professor Post,” which I haven’t had a chance to read through yet). If you do have a particular passage or work in mind, point me to it. We’ll make more progress that way.
Though you would suspect the opposite from reading the Kerux review, a prominent and oft repeated point in TLNF is the notion that republication means republication of a strict-merit standard. I don’t know if this helps shed light on your understanding of Kline, but this is how VanDrunen in TLNF describes the interplay between merit, grace, and the temporal blessings received under the Mosaic covenant (please forgive the lengthy citation):
“As other essays in this collection also explore, the presence of the works principle in the Mosaic covenant does not make it the only thing present in it. As the Westminster Standards teach, the Mosaic Covenant is an administration of the covenant of grace, and thus God administered redemption to his OT people through it. As I discuss below, the Mosaic works principle itself served redemptive-historical, typological purposes. In light of what I argued about Romans 2 at the immediate end the previous section, I would note that the Mosaic law (reflecting the natural law) clearly demanded perfect obedience: the love of God with all of one’s heart, soul, and might (Deut. 6:5), the keeping of the whole commandment given by God (Deut. 11:8), the keeping of all of the commandments always (Deut. 11:1). This accords with Paul’s explicit interpretation in Gal. 3:10: a curse upon all who do not do all of the things written in the law. Because both the works principle and redemptive grace were administered in the Mosaic covenant, God did not enforce the works principle strictly and in fact taught his people something about the connection of obedience and blessing by giving them, at times, temporal reward for relative (imperfect) obedience.” (Emphasis in the original).
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Yes, I am thinking of something specific. Take a look at Kingdom Prologue, pp. 309ff. It’s long; one significant quote is here, with which I fully agree:
But he then changes tack when it comes to the land promise in the Abrahamic covenant. On p. 333 (too long to quote here) he splits the AC, in a move eerily reminiscent of dispensationalism, into an eternal life promise and a land promise. The eternal life promise was by grace through faith; the land promise operated according to strict merit.
And he finds in Abraham’s actions, such as his military conquest with the king of Sodom, a merit principle at work in Abraham wrt to the land, confirmed for him by Gen 26.
That’s the idea I have in mind. It appears to me that Kline goes too far in arguing
Works led to reward … so … merit!
when (1) the Confession clearly states that our works lead to reward, yet without having a meritorious ground of themselves, and (2) Abraham’s track record measured under strict merit is presented in the text of Genesis as lousy. (“Do I have to be your ‘sister’ again?!”)
Kline fixes (2) in the same way that van Drunen does, by saying that grace causes the works to be evaluated by a softer, relative standard.
I think this is well-intentioned but misses the point of (1). The republication of the Law at Sinai functioned always only negatively, just as it functioned for the rich young ruler. It was “2nd use” of the Law.
There is no “4th use” of the Law that says, “We perform works that God evaluates by a softer standard, leading to reward based on merit.”
Instead, the works that we perform are evaluated as if we were in Christ, through the lens of justification, and rewarded on that ground.
In other words, Kline on p. 319 needs to have words with Kline on p. 324.
In other other words, WCoF 16.6 is at odds with the notion of “reward for relative merit.”
(Just my opinion. I recognize that Kline was brilliant and all, so it may well be that I’m missing something.)
JRC
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A meta-ethic means a procedure for determining what is right and wrong. So it’s not a matter of a command, it’s a matter of practice: if one wants to use the Natural Law, then great … how? That’s what I’m asking.
Oh, you’re dangling that in front of me aren’t you? Won’t bite. Must … restrain … snappy comeback … 🙂
I’m glad to hear it, but the line of reasoning is confusing. As well you know, Reformed thought (with the exception of the Clark school) has traditionally distinguished between the providential or hidden will of God and the preceptual or revealed will of God. God is in control in terms of His providential decrees (WCoF 3.1). Separately from this, He has also revealed His preceptual will to us in the Law.
So God’s being in control, even when Saddam is ruling, is neither here nor there to the question, “What should Saddam do, given that God is in control?” Or again as I said last year, “We don’t obey Christ in order to make him Lord; we obey Him because He already *is* Lord.”
So we come back once again to the question, “How should the magistrate act?” Does he look to the Decalogue for the general equity thereof, or does he look to Nature? Or some combination of both? Or are the two identical, and if so, then how do we know this?
JRC
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A meta-ethic means a procedure for determining what is right and wrong. So it’s not a matter of a command, it’s a matter of practice: if one wants to use the Natural Law, then great … how? That’s what I’m asking.
But, Jeff, this doesn’t seem to really answer the question of where the Bible demands a meta-ethic or scriptural framework for interpreting natural law. It seems to simply assert, again, that epistemological enigma that we don’t know what we know without being told how to know it. More tabula rasa.
But the Israelites didn’t shake in their sandals at the foot of Sinai when Moses descended because they were being informed for the first time that stealing and adultery were wrong (who shakes at new knowledge?). They quaked because their obedience was being used to ratify the covenant, and they knew their disobedience would make hay of their reward and ground their punishment. And the point about Hussein is the same one Jesus and Paul make about rendering unto Caesar who is appointed by God. The instruction is to submit because he has been appointed for your own good, not to question whether his actions meet the litmus test of the meta-ethic-scriptural-framework. I realize that sounds counter-intuitive to the American ear trained to examine the civil magistrate to make sure he’s on the up-and-up. But there’s just no category for that in the NT. All there seems to be are categories for authority and submission. Hussein is God’s appointed man as much as insert-your-favorite-American-leader-here. 2Kers really, truly believe that. If 2K critics are being honest, they must admit they really don’t see it that way, one is probably less authoritative than the other.
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Zrim, if your meta-ethic is just “let your conscience be your guide”, then you can just say that. It was my understanding that Natural Law theory was something different.
One which is less authoritative than the other what?
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Jeff,
Yes, the theory of natural law is different from the dictates of modern autonomy. One is grounded in God, the other the individual, one idolizes the conscience, the other considers it fallen but as sufficient to use as any other created faculty. But the question for you still seems to stand: where does the Bible command a meta-ethic for interpreting natural law? Doesn’t it actually have a command to obey the law, as in “do this and live, don’t and die”?
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My point was, it’s a confused question.
If you say, “We are going to use the Natural Law”, then the next question is, “How will you go about it?”
So it’s not a matter of the Bible commanding or not commanding, it’s a matter of asking, “What does your program look like in action?”
So when DGH asks, “Where does the Bible command a meta-ethic for interpreting natural law?”, it’s like asking, “Where does the Bible command a hermeneutic for interpreting Scripture?”
I mean, we can stumble along without a hermeneutic … we’ve all seen *that* before … but in the end, the hermeneutic is just the method for understanding.
Now maybe DGH meant, “Where does the Bible command this or that meta-ethic for interpreting natural law?” implying that there’s liberty in our interpretation.
In which case, I’ll grant the liberty … but I’d be happy to have just *one* example of a working meta-ethic.
I’m not sure what you mean by the last question. There is a command … but it came by special revelation, not general …
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Jeff, On a meta-ethic, Ecclesiastes forbids one. As I keep saying, Ecclesiastes is the transformationalists’ epistle of straw.
On the magistrate, why don’t you ask about he laws of the land or the constitution? Why is it always the Bible? It’s like a Sr. VP saying in response to a question about for whom he works saying, “I work for the Lord.” Well, actually, you work for the president. And if that president (or law) is illegitimate, then maybe you don’t take the job. But just because you’re a Christian doesn’t mean that you can do an end run around established law and authority.
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Missed that passage. So: we’re going to use the Natural Law, but an un-named passage in Ecclesiastes forbids us from asking *how* we’re going to use the Natural Law?
Yikes, man.
Because no-one here has been making the case that we disobey the laws of the land. If one did, rest assured I would join you in a little Romans 13-ery.
Consider the context. The question is: How should the Christian magistrate function? Obeying the laws of the land? Yes. But as it turns out, the laws of the land are not a complete set. And crafting the laws of the land is not exhaustively guided by the Constitution.
So … ?
JRC
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If you say, “We are going to use the Natural Lawâ€, then the next question is, “How will you go about it?â€
Really? When I tell my daughter to set the table it is usually considered bad form to respond with, “I need a meta-ethic, Dad. Just how would you like this done?†Has sort of a disobedient tone to it, doesn’t it? But I have found the most succinct and effective form of verbal discipline came from my own mother who said, “You know how to behave. Do it.†It’s my wife who can spend inordinate amounts of time explaining the why’s and wherefore’s. Personally, I find that a potentially exasperating form of discipline, to treat someone like s/he is really that stupid. Hey, isn’t there something somewhere about exasperating one’s kids?
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Jeff:
How do you think the Christian Magistrate should function? Let’s pick from issues facing our leaders presently. Show me how the Bible instructs the Christian Magistrate in any of the following situations:
1. Are political campaign contributions by individuals and corporations speech as protected by the First Amendment? Should there be a limit as to how much a person or corporation can contribute? What should that limit be? Should a sitting president openly ridicule a panel of life-tenured Supreme Court Justices in his SOTU address?
2. Should the “9/11 mastermind” Khalid Sheik Mohammed be tried in a criminal court or a military tribunal? What procedural safeguards should be required? A jury of peers? A right to counsel? Can he be sentenced to death? Should his trial be open to the public?
3. When sentencing a criminal whose crimes were motivated by drug addiction, when is rehab an appropriate alternative to imprisonment? Should the victim have a say in determining the punishment?
4. What should the fine be for speeding in a school zone?
5. What grade of copper tubing should be required in the plumbing of new buildings?
How does your biblical meta-ethic inform these decisions?
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RL, I’m still working through these issues, so I’ll give a general idea of an answer, but I’m not going to have complete specification. I’ll leave out the secret Bible code numerology that instructs us on campaign contribution limits. 😉
First, I don’t take Scripture as exhaustive. It provides norms, which function positively as goals and negatively as checks. The means of achieving those norms are subsumed under Christian liberty. For me, the means will be highly data-driven, but your mileage may vary.
Second, there is a distinction to be made between individual behavior and societal law. Killing another man in revenge is wrong; enacting the death penalty on a proved murderer is probably not (unless the improbable reading of Rom 13.4 as “police force” is sustained). I favor personal theonomy for all.
Third, I take as basic the Confession’s teaching that the Mosaic Law has expired as the law of nations “except for the general equity thereof.” Thus, I do not favor public theonomy.
So that said, I would suggest that the president’s remarks of last night are the easiest, and are covered by Proverbs. That’s not a matter of public policy but rather of personal behavior.
For #1, there are certain Scriptural norms that do apply: the rule of law matters (e.g. Prob 31.4-5), so I would tend to take an approach that defers to precedent. The issue, if I understood, in the recent “Hillary Movie” case, was whether corporate speech is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.
The primary argument of the majority is that “money == speech” is settled law; that corporations are persons under the law; so that the 1st Amendment trumps McCain-Feingold (I’m working off of a popular understanding, so feel free to correct me). And I believe that the mode of expression was at issue: if we can ban the showing of “Hillary”, then we can ban books, or ‘Net postings, or whathaveyou.
The dissent was that corporations are different from flesh-and-blood people, and that a lower standard of 1st Amendment protections applies to them (with settled precedents also appealed to).
Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the various precedents cancel one another out — that the state of the legal question is quite open, and that you and I are sitting amongst the Nine Old Persons and giving them advice.
I would ask then, “Are there Scriptural norms that should direct my thinking here?”
One of those would be the necessity of not favoring either the rich or the poor. So I would have to consider whether my ruling would tip the scales of speech in favor of one constituency or another (IMO, McC-F favored established news organizations over others).
There would likely be other norms.
Having considered those, I would then consider how to craft a ruling that would sustain those norms, to the best of my ability.
That’s about the best I can do.
What would you do?
You’ll notice, though, that a key theme for me is to separate “ought” from “is”; that is, “ends” from “means.” Scripture speaks much more strongly to ends than to means.
JRC
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It’s interesting as an historical footnote to this discussion to recall that the Magistrate can’t help consulting biblical/natural law norms when he/she consults the law of the land. Scholars of legal history recognize that our Anglo-American legal system was decisively influenced by biblical Christian ethics from top to bottom. Since the advent of the Court of Chancery in the 12 century (and especially since the 14th) until the modern era, the Lord Chancellors of England were churchmen. Their legal decisions cited Scripture. Their opinions were often persuasive authority to the common law judges and so their laws of equity and conscience over time influenced not only the law of equity but the common law. So that by the time of Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, there was blatant confusion of the two kingdoms in that Blackstone felt the need to provide biblical justification or support for many of the laws on which he commented.
When the English settled America, the common law/equitable principles of Great Britain were imported into American law. Of course, modern law has evolved and no longer adheres strictly to old common law. But to this day, it’s interesting to see the vestiges of Christian influence stubbornly surviving. For example, if you look at state code books containimg statutes written in the 19th century that copied statues enacted in the 18th century, some of the old theological categories and language remain. (Ex: employment law codes that refer to the “common callings.” Or old causes of action like “alienation of affections,” which originated in the old form books written by churchmen. The cause of action allowed a spouse to sue a homewrecker who lured his/her spouse into adultery. The cause of action was an effort to establish a legal remedy that put the force of law behind the seventh Commandment.)
Accordingly, much of our American law, especially equitable principles (that originated from the Lord Chancellor’s pen) is shot through with Christian values that incorporate much of Christian ethics unwittingly. At least in the case of the Anglo-American legal system, then, the Magistrates over the last 800 years were not groping in the dark and finding natural law; they were to one degree or another explicitly embracing Christian/ecclesiastical/Scriptural norms. And to some degree still unwittingly do, despite the fact that Christian norms are fast losing their grip on our culture.
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CVD, Any chance you want to throw in the contributions of the pagan Romans to legal developments in the West, not to mention the Roman Catholics?
Why all this boasting?
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Jeff, have you ever considered Ecclesiastes? All under the sun is vanity. There is a doubleness built into the preacher’s reflections and it doesn’t look good for those who overestimate this world or its signficance.
If the Constitution is not exhaustive, how so is the Bible when it wasn’t given to be a book of laws for the state? Anyway, how would a Christian magistrate on your view serve a Mormon constituency other than by going for something you share in common with them, not by going to the book that separates you from them?
I continue to wonder how you are not making the world safe for theonomy.
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DGH, I have great respect for your intellect, so that increases my frustration when you ask “If the Constitution is not exhaustive, how so is the Bible when it wasn’t given to be a book of laws for the state?”
after I said,
JRC: “First, I don’t take Scripture as exhaustive. It provides norms, which function positively as goals and negatively as checks.”
Can we agree that I have said that Scripture is *not* exhaustive?
Thanks,
JRC
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I think a Christian magistrate would definitely start with what is shared in common. But if push comes to shove, if the choice is between “common ground” and a law that is manifestly unjust (know by its flat contradiction with Scripture), then common ground might have to give way. No?
JRC
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DGH, don’t understand your post or where you see boasting. I don’t believe the credit for Christian contribution to the legal order of the West goes to the churchmen who contributed to it. I’d hope that it would give ground for praise to God who in his mercy and providence suffused the states of the Western world with a moral grounding to law, which was the intent since the divine origin of the state (Gen. 4:15ff). It’s noteworthy that states and legal systems that did not flower in the ground of a Christian (or Jewish) cultural context lack most of the moral fiber of the Western legal systems that did. Fundamentally, they often lack respect for human dignity, liberty, and human rights.
I believe we 2K advocates should also speak with an eye to historical accuracy. We rightly speak of natural law grounding the city of man and rightly want to avoid confusing the two kingdoms, as the English historically did. We sometimes define natural law to be the moral order inscribed in the world and especially in human nature, an order that is known to all people through their natural faculties (especially reason and/or conscience) even apart from supernatural divine revelation that binds morally the whole human race. Then we speak as if natural law, alone, contributed to the West’s moral order. And we say the Magistrate should not look to scriptural norms. Without significant qualification, those kinds of assertions are historically naive. The Magistrates of the Anglo American legal system, as with much of the Western world, have long looked to scriptural norms every time they opened their law books, whether they knew it or not.
I would suggest that we can remember from this that natural law,without the influence of Christians, does not always guarantee a salutary legal or moral order, and historically it has not. I’m a strong 2K advoacate, and don’t suggest that we return to churchmen sitting as heads of courts of equity or law. Nonetheless, it is instructive to note that, where Christian ethics shaped the law, the legal system and moral fiber of the culture became superior to legal systems in non-Western cultures. I would suggest that this should encourage Christians, in their individual capacity as citizens of the city of man, to work where they can to help maintain or uplift the legal/moral order through their voting and other actions as private citizens. This position would distinguish my 2K position from that of more radical 2K advocates who advocate Christians not vote according to their scripturally informed conscience, as for example, where some advocate Christians violate the 2K doctrine by casting a vote for Prop 8 or engaging in any form of political activism. Natural law, on its own, without the salt and light of Christian influence, has not in fact produced in most non-Western societies that lack a Christian tradition a just legal order or a moral order that is of the kind God is pleased to see prevailing in the City of Man.
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CVD, I understand your point but you do not seem to concede that prior to English common law there was Plato, Cicero, Augustine, and Aquinas. Protestants merely added to what was already cooking in the West. And for those who want a pure Reformed approach to everything, including politics, it is very hard to square that with the way that Protestants appropriated what they received from pagans and idolaters.
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DGH: Anyway, how would a Christian magistrate on your view serve a Mormon constituency other than by going for something you share in common with them, not by going to the book that separates you from them?
Jeff: But if push comes to shove, if the choice is between “common ground†and a law that is manifestly unjust (know by its flat contradiction with Scripture), then common ground might have to give way. No?
I think we’re getting close to the heart of the matter. A society that welcomes all sorts of people and also invites them to participate in government cannot ever justify it’s policies (laws, wars, court rules, etc) by resorting to a claim of epistemic privilege without courting unending cultural warfare. Over time, the government will turn from an instrument of cooperation based on consent to one of control based on coercion. And so the battle is on. Isn’t that what we see now?
Evangelicals insisting that only a Christian informed by the bible can properly govern. Many Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, think that government should be run by Muslims guided by their sacred writings. We also hear claims to exclusive knowledge based on gender, sexual orientation, race, and class. These dominate our political discussion. Does the phrase “wise Latina” ring a bell? There’s no discourse. There can’t be in an environment in which it is taken for granted that moral knowledge is exclusive and that the government can wield its sword based on this exclusive moral knowledge. There can only be struggle–the only way to avoid the tip of the sword is to be the one wielding it.
My answer to Jeff has to be an emphatic No! You present a false choice between “common ground” and biblical morality. The doctrine of Natural Law teaches that though it may be actively suppressed, there exists a common morality among men. While still acknowledging that sin has both darkened the mind of man and dulled his conscience, the doctrine of common grace teaches that God has still granted great knowledge and skill to the unregenerate when it comes to science, philosophy, and culture. This should give us great confidence that we can build a society and a government based on cooperation.
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Jeff, and so what exactly is the justice of polygamy? Some OT saints practiced it. And it is a problem and certainly a no-no for church officers. But if Sean Kemp had married all the women with whom he had fathered a child, wouldn’t that be more just than what we have now?
The point is that we don’t generally turn to the Bible for justice. Sin? yes. Grace? yes. But justice — especially the idea of what is fitting, is something that comes from observing nature. That is why Aristotle was so brilliant. He wasn’t turning to the Bible.
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Yes, Jeff, the Bible is not exhaustive. And can we agree that the Bible is not a textbook of jurisprudence, political theory, or public policy?
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I would suggest that we can remember from this that natural law, without the influence of Christians, does not always guarantee a salutary legal or moral order, and historically it has not. I’m a strong 2K advoacate, and don’t suggest that we return to churchmen sitting as heads of courts of equity or law. Nonetheless, it is instructive to note that, where Christian ethics shaped the law, the legal system and moral fiber of the culture became superior to legal systems in non-Western cultures.
If superior legal systems and moral fiber are the result of Christian influence, what exactly is the problem with having “churchmen sitting as heads of courts of equity or law�
This position would distinguish my 2K position from that of more radical 2K advocates who advocate Christians not vote according to their scripturally informed conscience, as for example, where some advocate Christians violate the 2K doctrine by casting a vote for Prop 8 or engaging in any form of political activism.
I wonder if you’re misreading what some 2K advocates are actually intending to convey. Nobody is suggesting withdrawal from political engagement. But as long as you characterize things this way it’s the old-fashioned ruse of saying, “If you don’t care like I care then you don’t care.†Fubar. All some 2Kers are suggesting is that one employ a greater measure wisdom when it comes to the all too familiar two-dimensional games of culture war and power plays. That goes equally for those on either side, for example, of something like Prop. 8.
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DGH, I concede the contributions of the classical western tradition, including pagans, to our legal system and culture. My point was more narrowly focused on the Anglo-American legal system. Though I’m not a scholar of legal history, I found Maitland’s history of the English legal system compelling, and he’s generally recognized as the leading authority. His take is that the Greek and Roman tradition had little influence on the Anglo-American legal system. Most of the flesh on the bone — the development of the common law and equitable principles, the principles of due process, the jury system, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, presumption of innocence, the forms of actions, the dignity of the human person, notions of what is fair and just — developed after the Norman Conquest through the Court of Chancery, where the Lord Chancellor was an ordained minister and often a trained theologian.
It does seem reasonable to assume that the Greek and Roman tradition established a framework and set of assumptions within which the specifics developed. I take it as undisputed that much medieval theology borrowed from these traditions.
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Zrim, it’s one thing to have an official clergyman of the official state church designated as the Lord Chancellor (head of the Court of Chancery) deciding cases and making law with scriptural footnoes, quite another to have a Christian lay person vote, write a letter, speak to a neighbor, send a check to a candidate’s campaign, serve on a PAC, or call their Congressman, speak out in condemnation of abortion, vote for Prop 8, all the while making decisions guided by a conscience formed by Scripture.
Yes, there are bloggers and pastors who in the name of 2K say condemn those actions as a confusion of the kingdoms. One well known such person in the 2K camp endorsed gay marriage. The rationale seems to be that in a pluralistic culture, Christians should resign themselves to unbelievers having their way with the law. If they want legal abortion and gay marriage, it is fundamentally wrong for us to oppose those efforts in any way, at the ballot box or by word or pen. I respectfully disagree.
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CVD,
I voted no on Prop. 8 ( http://jedpaschall.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/rethinking-proposition-8/ ), and I have caught a lot of flack for this. I certainly do not believe that my vote constituted letting unbelievers have their way with the law, I saw it as an issue of equal rights in a manifestly plural society. Are other Christians free to disagree as a matter of conscience? Of course. But I think it was a horrific blunder for so many churches to make official condemnation of the Prop. let the voters decide.
*Abortion is an entirely different issue, and I believe that a natural law argument is sufficient for the pro-life cause to make a sound legal argument for banning abortion.
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Jed, I respect your view. Many Reformed friends agree with you. I put marriage in the same category as abortion, a natural law issue. Marriage is a creation ordinance. In addition, Paul in Rom. 1:26-27 refers to relations that are “contray to nature.” This passage is often cited by proponents of natural law (of which I count myself one) as a proof text for natural law. I just offer that for consideration.
I agree churches should not take an official position on any ballot issue. The church qua church should not involve itself in politics. But the individual Christian is not under such disability.
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This analysis is insufficiently radical. The Bible isn’t a textbook, period. It has some didactic sections, but it is a narrative that tells the story of salvation.
Along the way, it includes instructions about “ends” — how God’s people should function in their lives. Their lives, not merely their churches. (I know you agree, I’m just being emphatic).
So to the extent that Christians’ lives intersect with jurisprudence, political theory, or public policy, then to that extent the Bible potentially has something to say about it.
It’s a fallacy to say, “The Bible isn’t a textbook of X; therefore, it does not speak to X.” The most obvious counterexample would be the ad absurdum:
“The Bible isn’t a textbook of 1st century Palestinian history; therefore, we cannot use it to say that ‘Jesus was raised from the dead’ is a historical fact.”
The “textbook” argument is just not sound.
JRC
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Historically, can you identify governments that have *not* been instruments of control based on coercion but *have* been instruments of cooperation based on consent?
It’s a lovely ideal, don’t mistake me; but I question whether taking your view would in fact lead to cooperation based on consent.
Certainly, what I have seen of the “plurality” movement has not been cooperation based on consent, but rather the pushing of a particular ideology and a particular meta-ethic (namely, utilitarianism) on those who would rather just be left alone.
So expand on this: if my views lead to endless conflict, do yours lead to a better place? If so, when and where?
Again, I’m not saying that fighting is desirable. I’m just questioning whether your rebuttal (“but that leads to fighting!”) has any teeth.
Fantastic. Tell me how it goes down: how does one use the Natural Law to build a society and government based on cooperation?
JRC
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CVD,
I am all for individual Christians vocalizing their opinions. I also agree that there is a natural law argument against gay marriage. I think this where the complexity comes in though. There may be natural law arguments against the exercise of certain modes of free speech, but I maintain that the First Amendment is a fair law. Is it possible that just because there is a compelling NL argument that the NL precedent must necessarily be applied as a matter of law in the political system? I would maintain that there is an argument of necessity in the case of abortion, but not for gay marriage. Admittedly I am still sorting through the good and necessary consequence as a Reformed newbie, but this is where I stand right now and I am willing to own it.
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…it’s one thing to have an official clergyman of the official state church designated as the Lord Chancellor (head of the Court of Chancery) deciding cases and making law with scriptural footnoes, quite another to have a Christian lay person vote, write a letter, speak to a neighbor, send a check to a candidate’s campaign, serve on a PAC, or call their Congressman, speak out in condemnation of abortion, vote for Prop 8, all the while making decisions guided by a conscience formed by Scripture.
Yes, those are different things. One is primary involvement, the other more secondary (and heavy on the activism). But you have suggested that superior systems have come by way of believers being primarily involved in the actual crafting of state and policy (and, by implication, when believers are not crafting then these things are inferior). So, it would seem to follow that if we want superior systems we should in fact want churchmen “deciding cases and making law with scriptural footnotes,†wouldn’t it? I have no problem whatsoever with believers being primary agents, but I’m not at sold that our very presence makes things superior. Some might call that pretty arrogant and self-satisfied. So if we’re going to say “this is one thing, but that’s another,†I would rather say it’s one thing for one to be involved crafting law, another for one to think his work will always yield something superior simply because he’s him and the other isn’t.
Yes, there are bloggers and pastors who in the name of 2K say condemn those actions as a confusion of the kingdoms. One well known such person in the 2K camp endorsed gay marriage. The rationale seems to be that in a pluralistic culture, Christians should resign themselves to unbelievers having their way with the law. If they want legal abortion and gay marriage, it is fundamentally wrong for us to oppose those efforts in any way, at the ballot box or by word or pen. I respectfully disagree.
I do, too, CVD. But I can live with misguided pro-lifers who simply want to push back as hard as Roe shoved. I’m not about to pull out the big guns for the sake of my states’ rights persuasions and tell them that that their federalism implies impiety the way they tell their choice-interlocutors are the devil’s viceroy’s. And I’ll try to keep a reign on suggesting that throwing uncareful support behind the pro-life movement flirts with idolizing the highest temporal good, life itself (that thing Jesus said must be laid down to even live). But 2K affords us to be able to disagree, and strongly, on certain civil matters. Just because someone agrees with someone you disagrees with it doesn’t mean he thinks “unbelievers should have their way with the law.†When Machen opposed Prohibition along with certian other unbelievers, and certain other Christians supported it, was he saying that “unbelievers should have their way with the law”?
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Don’t let anyone fool you … no-one’s got this all worked out.
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Jed:
Gay marriage should be opposed because it not only offends natural law, but it offends a fundamental creation ordinance that is a critical foundation to human life and society, in my view, as Dr. Peter Jones of Westminster Seminary has argued persuasively. He argues that it is not merely sinful, but an overthrow of creation at the most fundamental level, a frontal assault on God unlike any other. The same can’t be said of every sinful act or law. Jones argues that gay marriage is therefore a greater evil than abortion. That trumps equal rights.
Wisdom plays a role here. It’s too late in the day for Christians to argue for, to take some examples, replacing no-fault divorce with fault divorce, too late to argue for laws against adultery or fornication or reinstating the civil cause of action for alienation of affections (even though you could argue on natural law grounds for all). The culture here has moved too far south. But it’s not too late to argue for preserving traditional marriage.
I don’t understand your First Amendment argument. The FA is, with only a handful of exceptions, a guarantee against government restraint, not private. There are natural law arguments against deceptive and fradulent speech, and our law imposes sanctions against such speech under certain circumstances. There are natural law arguments against rude speech, but I wouldn’t advocate for laws against rudeness. We have to employ wisdom.
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CVW,
I don’t fundamentally disagree with Dr. Jones’ assessment of the nature of the offense of gay marriage. What I am not convinced on is whether or not it trumps equal rights. The only real power the government in the marriage issue is that of a property contract between consenting adults. This is why I see it as a civil rights issue. Would I view a state-sanctioned gay marriage as a valid one? No. But I am not up in arms about the designation because in our legal system the term doesn’t carry the same legal weight that it does in Scripture.
As to the preservation of marriage in our culture: I’d like to see it happen in the church first. I can’t help but think that if we did a better job of this in-house we wouldn’t have a better effect on marriage in the broader culture.
I think you fairly articulated what I was getting at with the FA – we don’t unilaterally apply natural law, rather use wisdom in applying it on a case-by-case basis.
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Jed wrote re: same sex marriage. “I saw it as an issue of equal rights in a manifestly plural society.” CVanDyke wrote “Gay marriage should be opposed because it not only offends natural law…. it is not merely sinful, but an overthrow of creation at the most fundamental level, a frontal assault on God unlike any other.” And, “But it’s not too late to argue for preserving traditional marriage.”
I agree with Jed. Same sex marriage has been a fact in my Province for 61/2 years, and 41/2 years in the whole country. Those who married persons of the same sex were living with their partners prior to their ability to legally marry. They were in same sex relationships then as they are now. When the issue first arose, I was not in favour, but then realized that my marriage to my late wife was before God as well as the state. I thought of all the heterosexual marriages where partners were unfaithful to each other, persons who had been married numerous times, marriages such as that of Britney Spears that lasted mere hours, as well as polygamous marriages by certain Mormon and Muslim groups.
I realized my marriage was not hurt by those and that my commitment to my wife before God had nothing to do with other marriages. Therefore, fear not, TRADITIONAL marriage is alive and well. Christian marriage is not affected by worldly marriage. Christian marriage is before God. Marriage for the state is merely an administrative issue. Two kingdoms works.
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Wout:
Glad to hear life and marriage up north is good.
I don’t believe two kingdoms theology requires Christians not oppose gay marriage, and wisdom says we should. Same sex marriage is productive of much harm. It’s harmful to children, harmful to the moral climate of a society, and establishes new legal entitlements and threats to religious freedom (under U.S. law as interpreted by our courts) that can be inimial to the liberties of Christians and church related organizations. When the government places its imprimatur of approval on something, it legitimaizes and normalizes it, in public perception. Sociologists call this the pedagogical and symbolic function of state action. That’s why the change in law is sought. We’re worse off for it.
This isn’t intended as a brief against same sex marriage, but in support of my broader point that 2K not be pushed beyond its boundaries to hold that it disables individual Christians the way it does institutional churches.
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Guys, I promised not to “beat this drum” more, and I’ve fallen into doing it … so let me cease my participation here. RL, DGH, I’ll take note of any further thoughts you have, but please don’t take it amiss if I don’t respond.
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CVD:
“Same sex marriage is productive of much harm.”
I don’t have any political or theological point. As a colleague, I just wanted to point out the classic lawyer syntax of this sentence. Only a lawyer would say “gay marriage is productive of much harm” instead of “gay marriage hurts society.” I think it’s a byproduct of reading centuries of case law.
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This isn’t intended as a brief against same sex marriage, but in support of my broader point that 2K not be pushed beyond its boundaries to hold that it disables individual Christians the way it does institutional churches.
If it’s done right then it won’t, because that’s part of the point of 2K–to protect liberty of conscience. If liberty is trampled that’s a pretty good sign that it isn’t 2K anymore. So if I abstain from voting on Prop. 8, or if I refuse to sign the pro-life petitions, or otherwise refuse to get in lock-step behind warrior rhetoric and tactic, that means my conscience mayn’t be bound. 2K says that you have the right to lobby me on the phone to keep Adam and Steve permanantly single, and I have the right to hang up. And we both have the right to claim the other is contributing to the injury of society, but neither of us may imply impiety. That may only happen when one of us confuses justification with sanctification.
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CVD said,
Wisdom plays a role here. It’s too late in the day for Christians to argue for, to take some examples, replacing no-fault divorce with fault divorce, too late to argue for laws against adultery or fornication or reinstating the civil cause of action for alienation of affections (even though you could argue on natural law grounds for all). The culture here has moved too far south. But it’s not too late to argue for preserving traditional marriage.
If I understand John Witte correctly it seems he is arguing for a governmental enactment of dual laws of both civil marriage and covenant marriage. From what I understand some states have already enacted this dualism. Is it your opinion that it is too late in the day to allow this dual aspect? How, if at all, would this dualism affect the culture?
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Jeff, you may have signed off this discussion, but I do think that when you describe the sphere of the Bible in reference to the truth that “Christians’ lives intersect with jurisprudence, political theory, or public policy, then to that extent the Bible potentially has something to say about it” you have taken a strange hermeneutical turn. It is like saying that Shakespeare writes about law, English monarchs, and Italian merchants and so readers of Shakespeare should use him in figuring out politics and economics. Shakespeare has lots of wisdom. But if you were to base politics or economics on him, I think you’d be a little nutty.
The Bible is about God, man, sin, and redemption. It is not about society and markets.
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CVD, you wrote that one well-known advocate of 2k “endorsed gay marriage.” I think this is borderline slanderous regarding 2kers, and it smacks of the demagogery in which Dr. K and his attorney have engaged. If you are referring to Miss Irons, I would not say that she is a proponent of 2k or well known other than through Dr. K’s mischief.
I also wonder what you would say about someone whose response to gay marriage advocacy is to restrict the benefits attached to hetero marriage, thus making marriage less attractive to gays. Wouldn’t it be possible to use that argument to scare-monger with those who trumpet family values and Christian marriage?
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RL, I plead guilty. Poor syntax. Only lawyers write that way. I try to edit out that kind of thing from letters and briefs but don’t edit my blog entries very carefully.
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DGH, you gotta get out more. I sat across the table from a sem prof who argued for same sex marriage on 2K grounds. I’ve heard it from URC pastors who are stout 2K advocates. I’ve heard it from friends and colleageus who criticized me for working to oppose same sex marriage. I’ve read it on this blog site from bloggers who voted against Prop 8, thus supporing the Cal. Supreme Court’s mandating of same-sex marriage, on equal rights and 2K grounds. Quite frankly I don’t think you’re serious.
Re your proposal to restrict benefits of existing marriage, I’d don’t know what you have in mind and would have to hear a specific proposal.
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igasx, personally I believe dual marriage tracks are more problematic than civil unions and traditional marriage. It’s problematic in that I don’t think we want to countenance anything called marriage that is same sex. And it’s problematic in that the courts are more likely to find an equal protection violation to a first class and second class kind of marriage. The California court already seized this argument to condemn traditional marriage. The argument was that having opened the door to same sex civil unions, California cannot restrict marriage to different sex couples.
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CVD, I may not get out as much as I need to, but claiming that someone has said something across the table from you or that people have posted comments — none here that I know has advocated gay marriage; that’s not the same as debating the merits of a particular law or policy — is very different from saying that a prominent 2k person has endorsed gay marriage publicly. If that has happened in print, I would like to see the argument. But your characterization makes it seem that gay marriage is something that many (and important) 2kers advocate. It does resemble baiting.
I can’t say more about the other side yet because the statement by a 2k critic about reducing the perks for hetero marriage have not yet gone public. But when they do I’ll squeek.
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CVD,
I suppose equal protection could be a problem depending upon how the laws were framed. If both homo and hetero unions had an opportunity for covenant marriage then I would think the equal protection problem would be alleviated. If only hetero’s were allowed covenant marriage and both hetero and homo were allowed civil unions then maybe the equal protection problem would surface. Even if homo unions were allowed to participate in covenant marriage it would have a significant positive pedagogical impact on society in that we have revived what has been lost since most American Christians have no clue about the duties of covenant marriage and treat their marriages as simply civil unions.
Additionally, I think you and Peter Jones are wrong in assessing marriage as a greater creational mandate than life. All other mandates flow out of being created in the image of God and would be superfluous without it.
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Jed:
The only real power the government in the marriage issue is that of a property contract between consenting adults.
I’m sympathetic to your overall position, but that statement just isn’t accurate. Here are some other benefits of marriage: the right to make medical decisions on behalf of spouse, the right to determine where a predeceased spouse is buried, certain child custody rights (varies by state and can be quite complex), the right to not testify against spouse in criminal matters, the ability to sue for wrongful death (loss of consortium), etc.
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RL,
The correction is duly noted, thank you. These other benefits are still contractual, and I do not see a problem with states granting gays these rights. The most sticky issue is obviously child custody and adoption laws, which is fair, but hopefully 2k-ers can develop a rational NL response to that particular issue in public discourse.
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BTW,
I am not advocating gay marriage like it’s a good thing. I am only stating that as a principal of civic equity the prohibition of gay marriages on religious grounds subverts the notion of separation of church and state, since it seems like something the church has taken a concerted interest in squashing.
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Jed,
I didn’t think you were advocating for gay marriage, and wouldn’t accuse you of it. I’m a Rothbardian on this (and most other) political issues–liberty, equality, and justice would be best served by government involving itself with marriages as little as possible. This would be the case if the benefits of marriage flowed directly from a private (“contractual”) relationship between the spouses (as it did for most of Western history).
But that’s not how it is. Government has stepped in and decided to give benefits to married people that the couple couldn’t have obtained through private contractual dealings. For example, two people could enter a binding contract concerning burial plots, distribution of their property to their children, and other matters concerning their relationship vis-a-vis one another. But the government gives them rights beyond this. People aren’t generally free to contract to not testify against one another in criminal matters, but the government grants this right in marriage. People aren’t generally free to agree to give themselves a tax break, but they gain this in marriage. The list could go on. The government did all this to encourage marriage.
Shouldn’t those who oppose gay marriage also oppose inter-faith marriages? If some marriages honor God and others don’t, shouldn’t the churches be making sure that the government isn’t simply encouraging marriage in a broad sense or do they believe that gay marriage is the only marriage that is an affront to God? It sounds a lot to me like compulsory prayer in school, which inevitably forces underage atheists (and other non-Christians) to commit acts of idolatry.
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RL,
I should have qualified my BTW – CVD was claiming he knows 2k-ers who “advocate” gay marriage, as if it is a desirable union. I seriously doubt any 2k proponent actually advocates gay marriage, but there are at least a few who see no value in denying gay marriages legal status. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t misunderstood.
I am with you 100% on gov’t being over-involved in marriage, but aren’t these kind of impositions the province of government? I can think of several areas that government has horned in on that I would just assume be left alone.
I had to chase down the Rothbard reference, seems like a pretty interesting dude. I have to read more, but anyone associated with the Austrian School is bound to pique my interests. So much to learn, so little time.
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Jed,
If you’re looking for an accessible, current, and comprehensive libertarian jurisprudence, I strongly recommend Randy Barnett’s The Structure of Liberty: Justice and the Rule of Law.
If you want to read a study in how far we have drifted from our Constitutional moorings (at least as envisioned by the Founders) with advice on how to begin a Constitutional renewal, read Barnett’s Restoring the Lost Constitution.
Barnett is an award-winning law professor at Georgetown Law, so these are serious works, but I can tell you take these things serious, so I recommend them to you.
One note: If you google his name, I’m sure you’ll find a lot of free works online (law review articles, etc). In many such works he uses the phrase “polycentric social order” without explaining it. It’s basically a highfalutin’ way of saying “federalism.”
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RL,
Thanks for the resources! As an aside this line in his 7/17/2007 WSJ op-ed sums up why I made the move from the Republican Party to the Libertarian Party:
“First and foremost, libertarians believe in robust rights of private property, freedom of contract, and restitution to victims of crime. They hold that these rights define true “liberty” and provide the boundaries within which individuals may pursue happiness by making their own free choices while living in close proximity to each other. Within these boundaries, individuals can actualize their potential while minimizing their interference with the pursuit of happiness by others.”
As it concerns the gay marriage debate, I think that so many Christians have not fairly contemplated the nature of “the boundaries within which individuals may pursue happiness by making their own free choices while living in close proximity to each other.” My gay (and gay sympathizing) friends and coworkers clearly understand my biblical convictions on marriage, and where there is profound disagreement there is also deep respect for the liberty of conscience and choice, it’s the only way we can co-exist without an ideological jihad. It’s this uneasy peace that has opened a lot of doors for me to testify to the truth and relevance of the gospel, where a concerted opposition to liberty with other conservatives would have closed them.
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RL and JP, before you go out and purchase a subscription to Reason magazine, I would offer a word of caution on the libertarian front. I myself am registered as a Libertarian, mainly to avoid the weak-kneed “independent” status and to register my complaints with the two major parties. But as much as libertarianism gets right about the problems of centralization, it often stumbles (in its current forms) with persons and their social relations. So don’t forget about traditionalist conservatives, like those over at Front Porch Republic, who also don’t like the GOP but are smart about a whole lot of other matters, like, as Wendell Berry put it, what are people for?
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DGH, I am not sure I follow, could you elaborate a bit on the Libertarian deficiencies regarding persons and their social relations?
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Jed:
I took it as a given that you, a conservative Christian, do not personally endorse homosexuality. I know many like you who oppose homosexuality on biblical grounds yet endorse legalizing same-sex marriage on 2K and/or civil liberties grounds. I disagree but of course understand the distinction.
I wonder how your libertarian views would address so-called morals-based legislation. Historically the police power of the state was thought to include the power to legislate to uphold general morality. (The Supreme Court appears to have struck that state power, finding morality not a “rational basis” to sustain some classificaiton schemes. The court seeems not to have considered that much legislation is designed to uphold morality as conceived by the lawmakers.) Some libertarians argue against morals based legislation as a wrong intrusion into private decisions. For example, it is unlawful to discriminate in the provision of public accommodations on the basis of race or gender (among many other bases). These laws, which are both federal and state, are based on a moral conviction that such discrimination offends moral sensibilities. My clothing store now not only cannot refuse to sell based on skin color; it cannot offer free tailoring to men but charge women for tailoring. It is argued by supporters of anti-discrimination laws that that discrimination against women is immoral. I’m just curious about how the libertarian view would see these laws. Support, condemn, something more nuanced?
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CVD,
Fair question. I do think that Libertarians have to account for the overlap between law and morality better than they do currently. For example, the assertion that morals based legislation is a wrong intrusion into private decisions as an off-hand dismissal of any legislation with moral connotations is in itself a moral assertion that should be subject to argumentation in the public square. As a general rule I do see a lot of merit in anti-discrimination laws because they seek to maximize liberty for a much broader segment of society, even if the liberties of some who would prefer to discriminate are minimized. Generally I am in favor of government that maximizes personal liberty while maintaining order and mitigating as much collateral moral damage as possible. However, since we live in a plural society with so many competing value systems, moral collateral damage is a given since there will be ideological “winners” and “losers” on many important issues. I am not sure how you get around that from any political vantage point.
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Jed,
That’s interesting that you legitimize legislation that aims to “mitigate collateral moral damage” while maximizing liberty. I need to read more in libertariansim. Most of the writers/speakers I’ve heard or read don’t think law should have any moral aim or goal since that is a private decision. They would base legislation on maximizing market efficiency, or necessary infrastructure maintenance, etc., and don’t like anti-discrimination laws. Maybe there are different species of libertarians.
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CVD,
I made the move to the Libertarian party because it best represented my economic views and convictions on liberty. However, I have only made this move since the ’08 elections and some of my views may not be 100% libertarian, but I am comfortable with my current alignment.
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Jed, I would probably share all or most of those views. My only hesitation on libertarianism is I’m troubled by the writers/speakers I’ve read or heard who seem to have a coldly a-moral view of the world. I need to study more in this area. Thanks.
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CVD:
You know there are different species of libertarians. I think these anti-discrimination statutes violate a person’s right to contract and associate with whomever he wants (and this includes the right to not contract and not associate with whomever he wants). By the way, these anti-discrimination laws were about as effective at promoting racial harmony as the old anti-sodomy laws were at quelling gay relationships; they accomplished little, if they accomplished anything at all. The federal versions of these laws were (and remain) also a clear violation of the Constitution.
What cases do you have in mind when you say that SCOTUS has “struck” the states’ ability to legislate for public virtue? Lawrence v Texas? In that case, the Court struck that anti-sodomy law only after it found that the defendant had a fundamental right to engage in a private sexuall relationship with a member of the same sex. Finding that such a fundamental right exists, as you know, triggers a higher standard of scrutiny than a mere rational-basis review, since fundamental rights are protected against state interference by the 14th Amendment. And, as I’m sure you know, the state in Lawrence v Texas conceded that the case was a matter of private morality, not a matter of public virtue. That is, they conceded that gay sexual relationships should be banned simply because they are wrong. That argument can never fly. We would have no judicial review of any legislation if all that was needed to justify it was that the legislators thought it was the right thing to do. That would undermine Constitutional democracy as we know it.
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RL:
Thanks or the clarification of libertarianism. Will have to read more.
I had in mind Lawrence v. Texas and the trajectory from that case. As you’ll recall, the majority in Lawrence held that “public morality,” which for a century had sufficed as a state interest that could sustain a statute under challenge, was not a “legitimate state interest” at all. In his dissent, Justice Scalia recognized the death of morals based legislation and warned that State laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity are likewise sustainable only in light of Bowers’ validation of laws based on moral choices. Bowers, which Lawrence overruled, was in the long line of cases that traditionally found public morality a legitimate state interest.
The law reviews and subsequent cases have recognized that after Lawrence “public morals” is no longer a legitimate state interest and a basis to sustain even rational basis scrutiny. For example, the Fifth Circuit struck down Texas’ sex toy ban holding that “morality is an insufficient justification for a statute” and “interests in ‘public morality’ cannot constitutionally sustain the statute after Lawrence. Reliable Consultants, Inc., v. Earle, No. 06-51067, 2008 WL 383034 (5th Cir. Feb. 12, 2008).
I take it that a libertarian philosophy would herald this development as a net positive. If not, I’ll stand corrected. But at least my libertarian colleagues are joyful.
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Jed, my objections to libertarianism concern the radical individualism that haunts its current manifestation. It is one thing to be anti-big government. It is another to let the sovereign individual be big government. What is often missing in libertarianism is a decent account of persons as social creatures, and so the importance of families and other mediating institutions for civil society. Heck, I’d even favor strong state government over strong federal govt. Anti-federalism is a different way of being anti-big government that avoids libertarianism’s individualism.
Here’s a pretty good article.
http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=501
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Great concept, and many thanks for taking the effort to publish it; I’m sure otheres benefited too. It really opened my eyes for some new conclusions that I hadn’t thought of before.
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