Liberty and Christianity go hand in hand. Liberty comes from God. Tyranny is given to man by man via the devil.
If you want a practical, biblical warrant for the above: we are told to spread the Gospel, i.e. the Word of God. How is this better possible, in an environment of liberty with all the rights we see in, for intance, the Bill of Rights, or in an environment of tyranny, where the state controls information, controls gatherings, controls speech, controls travel.
It’s very clear, liberty and Christianity go hand in hand. Liberty comes from God. Don’t be embarrassed by it. It’s OK. Freedom is good.
“I’m completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.” —George Carlin
The church that conflates its identity with the state is no doubt the kind of institution that “screws us up enough on its own.”
Carlin is good church/state contrarianism. But Twain is still king of unintentional Calvinism:
When Roosevelt declared that “In God We Trust†should be stricken from the coin, as it “carried the Name of God into improper places,†Twain said he found the motto to be one that is “simple, direct, gracefully phrased; it always sounds well—In God We Trust. I don’t believe it would sound any better if it were true.â€
>Seriously though, I threw up a little in my mouth.
Is your loathing a loathing of freedom? Mere self-loathing? Or both?
The naivete of Reformed Christians regarding the world (or just the ignorance of Reformed Christians regarding worldly matters such as politics and economics and war) never ceases to surprise me.
Christian, you have to at least concede that this comingling of church and state is a classic confusion of the two kingdoms. It couldn’t be any more blatant. I’m all for patriotic events, and I believe America has on the whole been a force for much good in the world. But America is not the Kingdom of God. To have a church, the visible manifestation of the Kingdom of God, sponor a patriotic civic display of civic symbols implies a fusion of the spiritual and temporal, the kingdom of God and the national state. How is a Christian who is not an American supposed to react to an event that implies Christ’s endorsement of one nation?
Do you really think this event has anything to do with liberty? It’s about pandering to a bunch of retirees in Florida who miss the Lawrence Welk Show and uncritical patriotism–the kind of patriotism that leads America into foreign adventures from Cambodia to Kabul. What does the church gain by mixing itself up with this nonsense?
I cannot help but notice that this bizarre event is being sponsored by the self identified “new” Presbyterian Church. At least they are honest about that.
As an Anglican who is friendly to traditional Presbyterianism, I also have to note the psuedo-liturgical appearance of such celebrations. Could somebody please send them a copy of Richard Baxter’s Savoy liturgy so they dont have to make up stuff to fill the time in church?
This is not a surprise from a church with a staff member called, “Minister of The Cultural Mandate.” I’m not making that up. Check it out. Personally, I thought that was something most of just did with our wives. (Joke! — relax!) Still and all, you have to admire the culturally-relevant graphic design — who they are trying to reach: those who grew up on “The Music Man?”
“Is your loathing a loathing of freedom? Mere self-loathing? Or both?”
No, I love freedom. But last I checked, Jesus freed me from sin and death, not oppressive taxation. I do, however, loathe Christ’s Church displaying nationalistic preferences. As for self-loathing, you betcha! I am a sinner, after all.
“The naivete of Reformed Christians regarding the world (or just the ignorance of Reformed Christians regarding worldly matters such as politics and economics and war) never ceases to surprise me.”
Who would you prefer? Chuck “I-wouldn’t-know-accurate-history-if-it-bit-me” Baldwin? I am actually fairly ignorant of politics, economics, and war, but I wouldn’t say I am naive; rather, I’m not sure what Christ or the Scriptures have to do with these subjects. Sullivan is right, this kind of display, just like the American flag next to my church’s pulpit, implicitly says that America is intrinsically better than other countries, and that her church is as well.
So…is this a group of folks who left Coral Ridge to start a “new” work? Looks like they have only been around for a few months, and are pretty close to Ft. Lauderdale.
The comments speak for themselves. This is why us street Calvinists are never surprised when another seminary goes liberal. The devil controls insitutions. It’s too easy for the lowest common denominator to take over via man fearing and all the respecting of persons that goes on. I am surprised, though, continually, at so many self-identified *Reformed Christians* being so ignorant of the world and so naive regarding things like liberty and tyranny. You can’t be a follower of Christ and be a dope regarding the world. Or a dupe of the devil and his kingdom. At some point you have to get a clue. It’s all involved in spiritual warfare. If you have no discernment, which comes from the Holy Spirit, you are a puppy on the freeway.
And if I saw another country celebrating their national heritage in a Christian church, and that country had a history of championing liberty over tyranny then there’s no problem. Liberty comes from God. Christians know that. Tyrannies come from man and the devil and tend not to even allow Christian churches to stand.
I love the “you betcha” above too. You people are in chains and arrogant about it. Liberal Christians wouldn’t know the devil if he had you by the throat. Which he does.
Christian: you speak sincerely, with conviction, naively and ignorantly. Being one who has gone the route of dispy-culture-warrior, theonomic-conquest-warrior (never a milque-toast – Jesus IS Lord of ALL), I recognize your comments to be rooted in rather shallow ground.
I’m sure you do not think so, and please don’t hear me as harsh (merely responding in tenor to your challenge). Yet seriously brother, these positions are bankrupt of the real power of Christ’s rule over all men. Neither the Church nor the State experiences the fullness of its particular grace when we seek to comingle them.
Render unto Caeser that which is his (and only his), or else you will never be rendering unto God (the Church) what is His.
19. That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the invisible things of God as though they were clearly perceptible in those things which have actually happened [Rom. 1.20].
20. He deserves to be called a theologian, however, who comprehends the visible and manifest things of God seen through suffering and the cross.
21. A theologian of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theologian of the cross calls the thing what it actually is.
22. That wisdom which sees the invisible things of God in works as perceived by man is completely puffed up, blinded, and hardened.
I suspect that this event is an attempt to continue the political emphasis of D. James Kennedy.
The commenters may or may not realize that this “New Presbyterian Church” is a recent break off from Coral Ridge PCA of people displeased with Tullian Tchividjian and his refusal to mix politics into his sermons, among other things.
>Being one who has gone the route of dispy-culture-warrior, theonomic-conquest-warrior (never a milque-toast – Jesus IS Lord of ALL), I recognize your comments to be rooted in rather shallow ground.
Being one who could smell the stench of theonomy and could see the unbiblical ball of tangled yarn of dispensationalism before I ever read a classical Reformed confession I’d suggest you didn’t have discernment, and you may still be missing it. You probably should entertain the real possibility that not everybody is a dupe to what you’ve been a dupe to and think about what you might be missing.
Clearly, there’s nothing wrong with being thankful for liberty. But suppose that your church contained 10% resident alien population: Vietnamese, Korean, Mexican, other.
Is it right to insinuate that a part of being a Christian, or of worshiping God, is to celebrate America? Is the kingdom of Christ located in this country, or that?
Keep in mind that DJ Kennedy’s position was that America is the New Israel. Are you comfortable with that conclusion?
Christian,
I too appreciate freedom, and am very glad to be able to live in a democracy here in Canada. I am also a Christian who (without using the 2k terminology) have always assumed that position naturally. I vote for a particular political party in elections and care about what happens in my neighbourhood. I respect the Queen as my head of state. I am a Canadian who is part of Canadian society. I am also a Christian who is part of THE kingdom, but who lives temporarily in this secular society. The state is the state and the church is God’s.
As a Canadian I can acknowledge the flag as a symbol of my country, but by the same token would find it a violation in the church. Patriotism is fine for me as a Canadian citizen, but it has nothing to do with me being a Christian citizen of THE kingdom.
You equate “liberty” with Christianity. Yes Christ has made us free, and we have Christian liberty. Many Christians not fortunate enough to live in a “free” country would never equate “liberty” with Christianity, if they did there would be no Christians outside of a few western countries.
Yes, enjoy the freedoms you now have as a citizen in your country. You should not forget however, that this is a relatively new thing. It did not appear for all Americans until after a revolution, after a civil war, after slavery was abolished, after women were allowed to vote, and after all races received the right to vote. However, Christians, whether slave or free, have always been citizens of THE kingdom in good (worldly speaking) times or bad.
Be proud of being an American, and blessed to be a Christian, but don’t confuse the two.
Oh, man. Where do you think human rights come from? Man? They come from God. *What man gives man can take away.* What God gives no man can take away. Liberty comes from God, tyranny from man. The fact is this *embarrasses* you all. You are embarrassed by the fact that the United States is founded by Christians upon truths that *come from God and not man.* This makes you grin and mock and get all embarrassed and want to start reciting Howard Zinn’s dumb book as if it were inspired poetry. American exceptionalism is real. It makes liberals cringe and also it makes them get wickedly angry. American exceptionalism is real because our foundation is upon God. The world hates us *AND TURNS OUR GLORIES INTO SHAME* over and over – as the psalmist says the world will do – because we represent the force of liberty and the rights that come from God on this dark planet.
If there is a Vietnamese person in your church they came here to escape tyranny in their own land. I can just imagine the look on their face as you explain to them how evil America is and apologize to them for America being so evil. They’ll think you are a lunatic. And if they are ungrateful themselves, still unregenerate, they will exploit this lunacy and ignorance and wicked stupidity in liberal Americans, to try to harm this nation, and many immigrants do just that. But the ones who know true evil and who are able by the grace of God to be grateful they will look at you as if you are a very sorry lunatic.
Chinese immigrants were largely brought over to America essentially as slave labor for the railways. They were treated like dung and America didn’t want them to stay, even at one point banning the Chinese women from immigrating (many were smuggled over anyway as prostitutes). God bless America.
It was the Christian missionaries who cared for the Chinese. Not this self-righteous, self-important whitewashed “land of the free.”
Now, I’m thankful to God to enjoy American freedoms (not much different from most of my freedoms in Canada which I was also thankful for), and recognize much good has come out of it. But when you’ve experienced God’s good gifts from other not-as-great nations, and from peoples not-so-Christian, maybe it’s easier to see an idol for what it is.
Patriotism is a good thing, but patriotism on steroids is idolatry. Like spouses and parents, our respective countries are very good things. I really like mine, not because they are superior to others but because they are mine. But they are temporal, fleeting. Try applying your sense of patriotism to the fifth commandment. What you end up with is a son who actually, objectively believes the “World’s Best Dad” tee shirt means he is literally God’s chosen father amongst fathers. Or think of when Michael Scott actually believes his “World’s Best Boss” mug means he’s the world’s best boss. It’s funny for good reason.
As for 2K or any kind of K, this is perhaps worth a look outside of Presbyterian circles: a Mennonite College is causing heated discussion with its decision to play an instrumental version of the anthem before sports games… they didn’t do so before and last year ended up being critizised on FOX News for it 😉 Interesting debate. http://www.mennoweekly.org/2010/2/1/goshen-begin-playing-national-anthem-athletic-even/
Old Life 
Point taken.
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But isn’t Jesus an American?
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Liberty and Christianity go hand in hand. Liberty comes from God. Tyranny is given to man by man via the devil.
If you want a practical, biblical warrant for the above: we are told to spread the Gospel, i.e. the Word of God. How is this better possible, in an environment of liberty with all the rights we see in, for intance, the Bill of Rights, or in an environment of tyranny, where the state controls information, controls gatherings, controls speech, controls travel.
It’s very clear, liberty and Christianity go hand in hand. Liberty comes from God. Don’t be embarrassed by it. It’s OK. Freedom is good.
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If it is any consolation most theonomists I know abhor such idolatry.
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Mind numbing.
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“I’m completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.” —George Carlin
The church that conflates its identity with the state is no doubt the kind of institution that “screws us up enough on its own.”
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Does one have to have the Patriots Bible to get in?
Seriously though, I threw up a little in my mouth.
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Chris,
Carlin is good church/state contrarianism. But Twain is still king of unintentional Calvinism:
When Roosevelt declared that “In God We Trust†should be stricken from the coin, as it “carried the Name of God into improper places,†Twain said he found the motto to be one that is “simple, direct, gracefully phrased; it always sounds well—In God We Trust. I don’t believe it would sound any better if it were true.â€
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>Seriously though, I threw up a little in my mouth.
Is your loathing a loathing of freedom? Mere self-loathing? Or both?
The naivete of Reformed Christians regarding the world (or just the ignorance of Reformed Christians regarding worldly matters such as politics and economics and war) never ceases to surprise me.
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Christian, you have to at least concede that this comingling of church and state is a classic confusion of the two kingdoms. It couldn’t be any more blatant. I’m all for patriotic events, and I believe America has on the whole been a force for much good in the world. But America is not the Kingdom of God. To have a church, the visible manifestation of the Kingdom of God, sponor a patriotic civic display of civic symbols implies a fusion of the spiritual and temporal, the kingdom of God and the national state. How is a Christian who is not an American supposed to react to an event that implies Christ’s endorsement of one nation?
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Christian:
Do you really think this event has anything to do with liberty? It’s about pandering to a bunch of retirees in Florida who miss the Lawrence Welk Show and uncritical patriotism–the kind of patriotism that leads America into foreign adventures from Cambodia to Kabul. What does the church gain by mixing itself up with this nonsense?
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Big band. One can never have enough of big band music.
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I cannot help but notice that this bizarre event is being sponsored by the self identified “new” Presbyterian Church. At least they are honest about that.
As an Anglican who is friendly to traditional Presbyterianism, I also have to note the psuedo-liturgical appearance of such celebrations. Could somebody please send them a copy of Richard Baxter’s Savoy liturgy so they dont have to make up stuff to fill the time in church?
LikeLike
This is not a surprise from a church with a staff member called, “Minister of The Cultural Mandate.” I’m not making that up. Check it out. Personally, I thought that was something most of just did with our wives. (Joke! — relax!) Still and all, you have to admire the culturally-relevant graphic design — who they are trying to reach: those who grew up on “The Music Man?”
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It looks like the main minister of that church was a graduate of Westminster California…when worlds collide.
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“Is your loathing a loathing of freedom? Mere self-loathing? Or both?”
No, I love freedom. But last I checked, Jesus freed me from sin and death, not oppressive taxation. I do, however, loathe Christ’s Church displaying nationalistic preferences. As for self-loathing, you betcha! I am a sinner, after all.
“The naivete of Reformed Christians regarding the world (or just the ignorance of Reformed Christians regarding worldly matters such as politics and economics and war) never ceases to surprise me.”
Who would you prefer? Chuck “I-wouldn’t-know-accurate-history-if-it-bit-me” Baldwin? I am actually fairly ignorant of politics, economics, and war, but I wouldn’t say I am naive; rather, I’m not sure what Christ or the Scriptures have to do with these subjects. Sullivan is right, this kind of display, just like the American flag next to my church’s pulpit, implicitly says that America is intrinsically better than other countries, and that her church is as well.
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So…is this a group of folks who left Coral Ridge to start a “new” work? Looks like they have only been around for a few months, and are pretty close to Ft. Lauderdale.
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The comments speak for themselves. This is why us street Calvinists are never surprised when another seminary goes liberal. The devil controls insitutions. It’s too easy for the lowest common denominator to take over via man fearing and all the respecting of persons that goes on. I am surprised, though, continually, at so many self-identified *Reformed Christians* being so ignorant of the world and so naive regarding things like liberty and tyranny. You can’t be a follower of Christ and be a dope regarding the world. Or a dupe of the devil and his kingdom. At some point you have to get a clue. It’s all involved in spiritual warfare. If you have no discernment, which comes from the Holy Spirit, you are a puppy on the freeway.
And if I saw another country celebrating their national heritage in a Christian church, and that country had a history of championing liberty over tyranny then there’s no problem. Liberty comes from God. Christians know that. Tyrannies come from man and the devil and tend not to even allow Christian churches to stand.
I love the “you betcha” above too. You people are in chains and arrogant about it. Liberal Christians wouldn’t know the devil if he had you by the throat. Which he does.
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Chris, COL (chuckle out loud). But Robert Preston always did something for me in a red band uniform.
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Christian: you speak sincerely, with conviction, naively and ignorantly. Being one who has gone the route of dispy-culture-warrior, theonomic-conquest-warrior (never a milque-toast – Jesus IS Lord of ALL), I recognize your comments to be rooted in rather shallow ground.
I’m sure you do not think so, and please don’t hear me as harsh (merely responding in tenor to your challenge). Yet seriously brother, these positions are bankrupt of the real power of Christ’s rule over all men. Neither the Church nor the State experiences the fullness of its particular grace when we seek to comingle them.
Render unto Caeser that which is his (and only his), or else you will never be rendering unto God (the Church) what is His.
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From Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation:
19. That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the invisible things of God as though they were clearly perceptible in those things which have actually happened [Rom. 1.20].
20. He deserves to be called a theologian, however, who comprehends the visible and manifest things of God seen through suffering and the cross.
21. A theologian of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theologian of the cross calls the thing what it actually is.
22. That wisdom which sees the invisible things of God in works as perceived by man is completely puffed up, blinded, and hardened.
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I suspect that this event is an attempt to continue the political emphasis of D. James Kennedy.
The commenters may or may not realize that this “New Presbyterian Church” is a recent break off from Coral Ridge PCA of people displeased with Tullian Tchividjian and his refusal to mix politics into his sermons, among other things.
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>Being one who has gone the route of dispy-culture-warrior, theonomic-conquest-warrior (never a milque-toast – Jesus IS Lord of ALL), I recognize your comments to be rooted in rather shallow ground.
Being one who could smell the stench of theonomy and could see the unbiblical ball of tangled yarn of dispensationalism before I ever read a classical Reformed confession I’d suggest you didn’t have discernment, and you may still be missing it. You probably should entertain the real possibility that not everybody is a dupe to what you’ve been a dupe to and think about what you might be missing.
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Christian:
Clearly, there’s nothing wrong with being thankful for liberty. But suppose that your church contained 10% resident alien population: Vietnamese, Korean, Mexican, other.
Is it right to insinuate that a part of being a Christian, or of worshiping God, is to celebrate America? Is the kingdom of Christ located in this country, or that?
Keep in mind that DJ Kennedy’s position was that America is the New Israel. Are you comfortable with that conclusion?
JRC
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Christian,
I too appreciate freedom, and am very glad to be able to live in a democracy here in Canada. I am also a Christian who (without using the 2k terminology) have always assumed that position naturally. I vote for a particular political party in elections and care about what happens in my neighbourhood. I respect the Queen as my head of state. I am a Canadian who is part of Canadian society. I am also a Christian who is part of THE kingdom, but who lives temporarily in this secular society. The state is the state and the church is God’s.
As a Canadian I can acknowledge the flag as a symbol of my country, but by the same token would find it a violation in the church. Patriotism is fine for me as a Canadian citizen, but it has nothing to do with me being a Christian citizen of THE kingdom.
You equate “liberty” with Christianity. Yes Christ has made us free, and we have Christian liberty. Many Christians not fortunate enough to live in a “free” country would never equate “liberty” with Christianity, if they did there would be no Christians outside of a few western countries.
Yes, enjoy the freedoms you now have as a citizen in your country. You should not forget however, that this is a relatively new thing. It did not appear for all Americans until after a revolution, after a civil war, after slavery was abolished, after women were allowed to vote, and after all races received the right to vote. However, Christians, whether slave or free, have always been citizens of THE kingdom in good (worldly speaking) times or bad.
Be proud of being an American, and blessed to be a Christian, but don’t confuse the two.
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Oh, man. Where do you think human rights come from? Man? They come from God. *What man gives man can take away.* What God gives no man can take away. Liberty comes from God, tyranny from man. The fact is this *embarrasses* you all. You are embarrassed by the fact that the United States is founded by Christians upon truths that *come from God and not man.* This makes you grin and mock and get all embarrassed and want to start reciting Howard Zinn’s dumb book as if it were inspired poetry. American exceptionalism is real. It makes liberals cringe and also it makes them get wickedly angry. American exceptionalism is real because our foundation is upon God. The world hates us *AND TURNS OUR GLORIES INTO SHAME* over and over – as the psalmist says the world will do – because we represent the force of liberty and the rights that come from God on this dark planet.
If there is a Vietnamese person in your church they came here to escape tyranny in their own land. I can just imagine the look on their face as you explain to them how evil America is and apologize to them for America being so evil. They’ll think you are a lunatic. And if they are ungrateful themselves, still unregenerate, they will exploit this lunacy and ignorance and wicked stupidity in liberal Americans, to try to harm this nation, and many immigrants do just that. But the ones who know true evil and who are able by the grace of God to be grateful they will look at you as if you are a very sorry lunatic.
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Chinese immigrants were largely brought over to America essentially as slave labor for the railways. They were treated like dung and America didn’t want them to stay, even at one point banning the Chinese women from immigrating (many were smuggled over anyway as prostitutes). God bless America.
It was the Christian missionaries who cared for the Chinese. Not this self-righteous, self-important whitewashed “land of the free.”
Now, I’m thankful to God to enjoy American freedoms (not much different from most of my freedoms in Canada which I was also thankful for), and recognize much good has come out of it. But when you’ve experienced God’s good gifts from other not-as-great nations, and from peoples not-so-Christian, maybe it’s easier to see an idol for what it is.
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Christian,
Patriotism is a good thing, but patriotism on steroids is idolatry. Like spouses and parents, our respective countries are very good things. I really like mine, not because they are superior to others but because they are mine. But they are temporal, fleeting. Try applying your sense of patriotism to the fifth commandment. What you end up with is a son who actually, objectively believes the “World’s Best Dad” tee shirt means he is literally God’s chosen father amongst fathers. Or think of when Michael Scott actually believes his “World’s Best Boss” mug means he’s the world’s best boss. It’s funny for good reason.
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As for 2K or any kind of K, this is perhaps worth a look outside of Presbyterian circles: a Mennonite College is causing heated discussion with its decision to play an instrumental version of the anthem before sports games… they didn’t do so before and last year ended up being critizised on FOX News for it 😉 Interesting debate.
http://www.mennoweekly.org/2010/2/1/goshen-begin-playing-national-anthem-athletic-even/
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