This frank and open conversation about multi-site churches among Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald, and Mark Dever is, from this Old Schooler’s perspective, down right scary. (Thanks to one of our readers.) It shows how words like “missional” and “video-campus” have undermined any clear understanding of ecclesiology at the Gospel Coalition. For instance, if I were an overseer at GC, I would have spiked this video and not let it go public. It is not fit for aspiring pastors or evangelical congregations if only because the views are so far from a biblical understanding of the church and — ding, ding, ding, ding — worship. But for some reason the folks at GC believe this is a valuable exchange about the work of the local church. Who’s in charge of quality control, or does a celebrity’s presence make it good?
Props go to Dever, though, who around minute 6 asks the question that should haunt all celebrity preachers — “What happens when you die?” That is a concern about which an ordinary pastor does not have to worry, as long as he has a good set of elders and as long as his congregation belongs to a presbytery. Shepherding is not rocket science since the objects of ministry are — well — sheep. Feeding a flock certainly has its challenges. But God calls other men, he equips a variety of teachers and pastors to provide training, and the recipes for sheep food are basic — word, sacrament, and discipline.
I do not know how you feed or care for a real live human being through a television screen. MacDonald and Driscoll not only need to read the pastoral epistles. They need to read Wendell Berry on how to care for sheep and for human beings.
Old Life 
Reformed Forum had a discussion last June on Multi-Site churches that was quite stimulating.
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I think that the problem here is that of two models in collision; the denomination versus the mega-church. If you look at the wider evangelical world most mega churches appear to be run as family business (for all intents and purposes). I think some people understand this (often subconsciously rather than consciously), which is why a lot of transition plans involve trying to morph the church into a denomination when the founding pastor retires.
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very scary conversation, flippant conversation. Driscoll is too cool for school.
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You know all this would be solved if we all just self fed. (wink)
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The affinity to the electronic is causing many of these ecumenical coalitions to lack permanence. Isn’t this the danger, though, of radical congregationalism? You’re a floating atom that’s free to join or leave organizations. You can go to a Reformed Baptist church that’s in “friendly association” with the SBC (to get the benefits of seminary), yet the congregation feels a stronger loyalty for the Gospel Coalition.
How are churches supposed to train up the next generation with systems like that?
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I heard a presentation recently on multi-site churches in which the presenter kept insisting that what they were doing was so “new” and “fresh” and “cutting-edge.” When he was finished I turned to the guys sitting next to me and said, “This isn’t new; it’s called a denomination.”
Upon further reflection, It occurred to me that there was a big difference between multi-site and denominations; in the multi-site model, the senior pastor at the main location gets to run things. (Which may actually make it less like a denomination and more like Rome.)
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Based solely upon this discussion, James MacDonald and Mark Driscoll have far too high a view of themselves. Why do they want their multi-campus model to go away when they die? The only difference between now and then is that they will no longer be around. The message is clear: THEY are so important that it would foolish not to take advantage of THEIR astonishing gifts.
Paul, on the other hand, wrote: “What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each (1 Corinthians 3:5).” Fifteen centuries earlier Moses said essentially the same thing in Exodus 16:8.
It is also interesting to listen to Mark Driscoll’s use of personal pronouns. For example, “I’ve got campus pastors”. What is he, the Pope?
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Pope? If not at least a medieval Bishop over his “diocese”.
Slightly off-topic but it would be nice if more Presbyterians read the Westminster Directory for Church Government.
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“sheep food” — nice phrase.
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What’s really bothersome here is that Driscoll claims to be an introvert. He and I were born on the exact same day, which makes us both Libras. And, as everyone knows, the introverted and restrained temperament of a Libra is such that we go out of our way to not rock the boat. How does all that square with unrestrained and boat-rocking sex talk in sermons? (If appealing to common sense and Presbyterian comportment don’t work maybe astrology and pop-psychology will.)
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Zrim! You’re talking astrology crap on DGH’s blog?
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As a former member of MacDonald’s personality cult, I can testify to the sway he holds over his congregations. Most members are so enamored with his public speaking – I admit, he’s a phenomenal public speaker, not a preacher – that the associate pastors mimic everything about him, including his Canadian accent. You’re from Kentucky, not Toronto, stop saying oot and aboot! I have friends from that church who moved away five years ago and have church-hopped since because “no one is like Pastor James.”
I was at Harvest when, in the midst of construction on the second site, a struggling church asked Harvest to take it over. MacDonald assured us that they had to do a video feed since the church had just fallen into their lap, but once things settled down they would install a senior pastor and the church would be autonomous. Six or seven years have passed. I guess they can’t find the right senior pastor.
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Dr. Hart,
Does Mark’s “Together for The Gospel” and His 9 Marks Ministry count?
Isn’t Mark’s Church in the 800+ range? Let’s throw out all the Multi-Site and Multi-Service stuff out, Can a Pastor know & feed a church of that size?
I’m not picking on Mark, because Mark Dever is one of the few of my former SBC brethren that I still respect. I know his people at least get fed by his preaching.
Coming from that background into the OPC, there is a monumental difference being at a church where my Pastor actually knows and feeds me VS The Pastor/CEO Model at your local Large/Mega Church. I’m saying this having served as one of the under shepherds in that model, As the Director of Young Single Adults, of a department that ran about 250-300 people. I hardly knew my Pastor.
I guess another question that can and should be asked, can Confessional Presbyterians be “Together for The Gospel” or in a “Gospel Coalition” with folks where a large portion of them would define “The Gospel” and “Church” as something you do?
God Bless
Joe
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I’ve been to Harvest Bible Chapel a couple times. They had a short clip in a service once about how a family heard James Macdonald’s preaching on the radio and they just had to move to the Chicago area so they could go to his church and ‘sit under his preaching’. It felt really bizarre. Why did they even show that clip?
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Zrim, name-dropper.
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Can the next roundtable be moderated by a pastor of 75 congregants who can lead the same men in a discussion on how to pastor the flock? Poor misguided Paul, who wasted so much talent going from house to house!
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Richard, I’d respond but Libras are above that.
dgh, I’ve also served Mary Travers a hamburger and Doc Severenson a dufflebag. If it helps, he was in nothing but his blue Speedo’s.
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Zrim, TMD.
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James MacDonald is on our local radio station. Frankly I can’t even stand to listen to him. His theology is erroneous and his whole manner is akin to sacrilege. I find his demeanour and handling of the word of God to be very offensive.
Mega-church issues and other errors aside….why are supposedly Reformed people even sitting down with this guy? To my mind he’s a destroyer of Biblical Christianity and a mocker of the God of the Bible.
I never thought very highly of Dever…but what in the world is he doing sitting down with someone like this?
Thanks for posting this.
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John A. To your question: why is he even sitting down with someone like this? Because they are fellow members of the gospel coalition. More than that, they are both council members which means they seem to be the magisterium of said coalition.
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Kevin DeYoung now has a post on his part of the GC blog stating his reasons for why he doesn’t support the multi-site model any more.
Though going through them I was struck by how subjective they sounded.
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John A. Why is it that you have never thought highly of Dever? I have never read anything negative about him.
I couldn’t stand to watch much of this video. They way they wouldn’t even let Dever get a word in at the start annoyed me.
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Mark Dever certainly has a lot of respect in the Reformed Baptist – and even Presbyterian – community. However there seems to be some inconsistencies. I remember listening to Dr Dever and Dr Hart’s interview recently and was thinking that Dr Hart’s conversion was being called into question. That may not have been the intent but I thought Dr Dever came on a bit strong at the beginning of the interview. It seemed to improve as the interview went forward. I guess that’s just his interview style. But now this. For someone with a high esteem for the church – and ecclesiology in general – Dr Dever has some odd bedfellows. This seems to be a trend in RB circles – coalitions, networks, and fellowships. Never a denomination. That way you can claim your ‘independence’ cake and get the benefits (?) of eating at the same time.
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He’s a Baptist, so in general I’m afraid I don’t agree with his theology.
He seems quite proud of the fact that he led a Congressional session in prayer…..which in and of itself doesn’t necessarily mean anything…but it usually speaks volumes.
The two combined are from my perspective, enough for me to disregard him.
I can’t recall at the moment, but I remember taking issue with some his 9 marks….not all of them were quite as Biblical as he would argue. That’s a can of worms isn’t it?
I’m not saying he’s all bad….I suppose it sounded that way. But I at least knew he was better (or should be) than to sit down with someone like MacDonald. They’re members of the same coalition? Time to break off. Why would they sit down with an Arminian, Dispensational, Mega-Church pastor/comedian? What kind of coalition is that?
To my mind the whole Reformed world is shifting at the moment and the ‘new’ leaders…Dever would be one of them…are not at all representational of what I would call historic Reformed Christianity. That said, in the end….what does the Bible say? As one who used to care very much about being ‘Reformed’…it’s hard to be encouraged when looking at the contemporary leaders of the movement.
Just for the record…I’m not a Presbyterian in any shape or form…so my issues are not in regard to polity. I too would look unfavourably on coalitions, networks, fellowships…and denominations. (smile)
I realize I’m in the minority.
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Scott,
I think Mark would consider himself a Calvinistic Baptist not make the mistake of hijacking the “Reformed” adjective in front of Baptist, like some Baptist do. Dr. Hart could tell us that for sure.
Dr. Hart & Mark Dever are good friends. As someone who did interviews on a video show, It was always harder for me to interview friends or someone I knew well because it’s too easy for it devolve into inside conversation between to friends. I think that was Mark’s way of laying out where Dr. Hart was coming from before he discussed Dr. Hart’s current books at time. Mark’s influence is mainly in Baptist and Bible Church circles, I would imagine most weren’t familiar with Dr. Hart.
Mark’s church, Capitol Hill Baptist Church is part of SBC [see below] I think “Reformed” Baptist are just following trend of the broad evangelical church in general , the rise of Non-denominationalism.
from Capitol Hill Baptist Church’s web site
The SBC
A Southern Baptist church since its founding, Capitol Hill Baptist Church is in friendly cooperation with and contributing toward the causes of the Southern Baptist Convention. As with all SBC churches, CHBC understands that its association with the SBC is entirely voluntary. We are thankful for the resurgence of biblical values in the SBC in the 1980s and are pleased to contribute to its causes, including the efforts of the International Missions Board (IMB) to take the gospel to all corners of the earth.
The contributions of CHBC and other churches ultimately pool in the SBC’s “Cooperative Program.†Churches both numerically small and great may involve themselves closely in gospel work by helping to fund seminaries, support missionaries, and publish teaching material. Our association with the SBC is a strong one. Each year, CHBC gives hundreds of thousands of dollars to SBC missions, sends a number of members to SBC seminaries, and sends trustees to serve on a number of SBC boards.
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John A.
Listen to the Reformed Forum’s interview with one of the Director of the GC.
What he did there was grab certain folks from their annual organizational meeting put them room and recorded this and other exchanges. This exchange was the GC Folks creation and their intention to pit two differing views on Multi-sites. Do I think they purposely stacked the deck against Mark here though, because the Multi-site seems to be more accepted trend in the GC. After all, why only One Mega Church when you can have many of them? Your church branding might reach the new Giga Church plateau that way.
I actually read on the blog of a former SBC Mega Church Singles minister, who was starting a church plant, that he ready to go because he had his Church branding in order.
Dr. Hart, your comments about the niffy logos in the original post has more merit than you originally intended .
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Driscoll thinks he is being radical, but he’s really just perpetuating celebrity culture. When he moves on, his congregations will need another cup of celebrity-java to stay awake.
It must be hard for Libras to contain their charisma.
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What books of Berry’s bibliography in particular do you refer to?
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Actually, “Michael,” I have no problem keeping my Libra-charisma under a bushel because my inner Presbyterian is way stronger than my Libra.
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“After all, why only One Mega Church when you can have many of them? Your church branding might reach the new Giga Church plateau that way.”
Some of this mentality – not specifically as demonstrated here but more widely – strikes me as more close to the spirit of Elmer Gantry than is actually comfortable.
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This has been alluded to already, but I wanted to draw it out more. It’s my estimation that a key motive for multi-site churches has outreach ‘potential’ in mind more than anything else. These churches are fiercely independent, yet they want to leave as big a footprint towards being missional as possible. They’ve seen how the SBC and other coalitions fail to unite and bind churches in lasting ways. Here is where Presbyterianism would lend itself as a wonderful alternative. But being fiercely independent, these churches instead devise a way to get the numbers necessary while not giving (in their minds) anything up. The multi-site church model provides them with a unified vision, heaps of cash, and no hierarchy they have to work with. Isn’t this shift just the latest attempt to bypass a more reformed understanding of ecclesiology and polity?
I was impressed by Dever’s questions and replies. Agree or disagree, I’ve always appreciated what I’ve read of his. I listened to a response from the video conversation by John Piper at the DG website. His church has been using the multi-site model for some time now. I was surprised he didn’t give a defense of the model. Closest it came was at the end where he said they will continue to use it because the Scriptures don’t forbid it.
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Are they not brothers? Are you treating them as brothers? Are you saying they are heretics? Trying to better understand what and why you are so harsh?
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T, I scold my children whom I love. To be sure, I don’t love Driscoll, Macdonald, or Dever because I have only met their pixelated representations. But this does give me a chance to write “Driscoll’s pixels.”
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Here’s a link to a panel discussion Southern Baptist Theological Seminary did on multi-site churches. It’s interesting that the only one taking a critical look at the multi-site model is a pastor (Greg Gilbert) from Capital Hill Baptist church, where Mark Dever pastors. Very nice to see how he was calling for a sort of regulative principle in determining New Testament ecclesiology.
Audio is here: http://www.sbts.edu/resources/chapel/chapel-fall-2009/perspectives-on-multi-site-churches/ (There’s a video link off the page too).
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At around the 36-37th minute one of the pastors admits, “Its a lot easier to start a site and replicate what you’re doing rather than have everyone buy into a new leader.”
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