Like the moth drawn to the candle flame, I will once again comment on the apparent discrepancies of Carl Trueman, the Lord Protector of Westminster Seminary, whom I hope will not do to me what happened to Charles I. What has to be striking to many readers is that Trueman is critical of many of the quirks of people with whom he is associated. He has been rightly critical of celebrity pastors but is connected to parachurch organizations that thrive on such celebrity. He has been critical of inspirational conferences as a form of binge-and-purge-spirituality but speaks at such gatherings. He is also critical of God-and-country Republicanism but dedicates his most forceful expression to a God-and-country pastor-scholar. Yet, when he has had the chance to comment on authors who share his perspective on these matters (and others), Trueman will sometimes dismiss them as peculiar and idiosyncratic.
Be that as it may, the English historical theologian who admires Oliver Cromwell has a set of important observations about the phenomenon of urban-love that has swept up much of the conservative Presbyterian and evangelical world for the last two decades.
First he wrote this about the romanticization of the city that lurks in the urban-ministry model:
This superiority of the urban at an economic level has been reinforced with a veritable arsenal of cultural weapons, from the linguistic (e.g., city life is often described as `authentic’ while that in the suburbs is `artificial’) to the ethnic (city folk are seen as quick, sharp, savvy, sophisticated; country folk as slow, thick, simple – think accents, whether Mississippi or Gloucestershire). One could easily make the case for the existence of an urbanism which parallels Edward Said’s orientalism. Now the church is apparently on the bandwagon: missions to the city have a cool, hip status; missions to the bumpkins and the yokels (that’s English for `redneck’) not being quite so sexy. The secular aesthetic receives biblical sanction through baptism by a dodgy hermeneutic.
It is a real, practical, pastoral shame that influential churches are jumping on this urban-aesthetic bandwagon. Not that cities are not important. As I said, they are important because they contain lots of people. And, of course, almost by definition, big influential churches are in the cities because of the concentration of resources. But the suburbs are important too (and not simply for the faux urbanites who commute from thence for their urban church experience on a Sunday); and the countryside has its reached and its unreached. They may not be as cool in secular terms, and I would certainly not want to portray them as superior to or more authentic than the city in a way that some do (let’s not forget that as Marx romanticised the industrial proletariat, so the Fascists romanticised the feudal countryside); but it would be good to see the obsession with cities as some kind of eschatologically unique or superior entity disappearing from the trendy reformed discourse, to be replaced by much less contentiously significant biblical categories: those who see the cross as foolishness or an offence, and those who see it as the power of God unto salvation. It would also be good to see suburban and rural pastors being given their due as well.
Then he followed up with a pertinent post on the dangers of mulit-site churches:
These are sad days, when the biblical models of church and pastoring are being swept away by the avalanche of numerical success allied to personality cults and corporate values. The Apostle Peter clearly likens pastoring the church to shepherding, connects this shepherding to Christ as the great shepherd and, by implication, to the kind of quality of relationship Christ has with his sheep (1 Pet. 5: 1-5; cf. Jn. 10:14). Can multi-site, out-of state ministries even approximate in the vaguest and most attenuated way to this? Is there even a debate to be had here? Is there a single one of these megachurch outfits that isn’t basically identified with one or maybe two big personalities? Is that not a warning light that something may be amiss? And isn’t it about time that somebody who carries real weight in the young, restless and reformed world spoke out about this kind of ecclesiastical madness? Or are we so steeped in the celebrity/corporate/megachuch culture and so mesmerisied by numbers that nobody sees the problems any more?
All of us have our inconsistencies and some of us have two-kingdom theology and Christian liberty to explain them. But as long as Trueman does not let his associations with celebrity pastors and presence at inspirational conferences prevent him from incisive critiques of the American church, I’ll continue to appreciate his observations even if few of his associates seem to be paying attention.
Old Life 
Who was it that said consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds? Dr. Trueman has his inconsistencies as do we all in the present age. Yet, he is within the world of the trans-denominational Reformed big city the resident dissenter-curmudgeon. This allows him to speak truth to power at present. Over time he will either be absorbed into that amalgamated city or be gradually marginalized within it so that he will have to go outside the city to the wilderness of disgrace. In the meantime this curmudgeon is grateful for his Jonah-like prophecy to and in the city. To borrow from a Hank Williams, Waylon Jennings, Earnest Tubb trio song, “Why don’t we let that boy alone and let him sing his song?” Soon enough he will either be an urbanized or move to the country and watch with Abraham what happens to the city.
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Trueman may have set up a straw man. At the “megachurch” where I’m a member (BBC Mpls, Downtown campus), the responsibility for pastoral care is encouraged at the small group level. Pastoral care is rarely supplied by a preaching pastor for a church of any size.
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Trueman: The Apostle Peter clearly likens pastoring the church to shepherding, connects this shepherding to Christ as the great shepherd and, by implication, to the kind of quality of relationship Christ has with his sheep (1 Pet. 5: 1-5; cf. Jn. 10:14).
Boy, doesn’t the church need to hear the above and seriously be thinking it through.
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Gary, does each small group have a pastor? Maybe your point is an argument for limiting the size and scale of congregations. Mom and pop is always better than Walmart.
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Gary H.,
“Pastoral care is rarely supplied by a preaching pastor for a church of any size.”
Really?
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Darryl, Aren’t there better targerts than WTS’s Carl Trueman? (Trueman on Protestant Urbanism). Like REAL enemies of the Gospel?— Post Modernists, many leftists and others who make war on Christians and the Church. Lets ALL take another look at Psalm 133 and hide it in our hearts! In Christ, Old Bob, WTS,1954. PS. How do you find time for all those postings and nearly countless comments? Careful, OB, don’t shoot at your great Christian Buddies!!!
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Gary. You do realize many churches have just 1 pastor don’t you? Preaching aside and shepherding is the primary job for a “pastor” for a church of any size.
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Regarding mom and pop and Walmart, I have a question for Darryl or anyone. I am Walmart’s biggest fan. I love its low prices, I like the culture of thrift, I like to see all these happy people at my wealth level or slightly higher/lower (so I superficially judge) buying mostly reliable products from China and all over the world. Sam Walton seems to me to have done more to alleviate poverty in the US than the fed. govt. ever will. I cannot understand what I take to be the local-this/local-that prejudice against Walmart and that type of place.
So my question: isn’t it possible to commend and appreciate mass-scale commoditization when it comes to the marketplace, to be a thoroughgoing individualist, a Hayek, Bastiat free market sort of libertarian, and yet consistently hold that such thinking has no place in church life and ecclesiology? I contend that being radically individualistic in all areas EXCEPT ecclesiology helps me maintain the lines more easily. Is this naive? If I cultivate some intellectual and emotional distance from every organization that wants me to join its “community” (and the list of petty and ridiculous associations claiming that title is massive), won’t I be less likely to mistake it for the only eternal community, the communion of saints? The easy way in which supposed communities are formed has devalued the whole concept. Perhaps this is more a threat to sound churches than people buying and selling with some alleged level of disconnect from the ultimate sources of their products.
I realize this is a little off topic but it was prompted by Darryl’s “mom and pop is always better than Walmart” comment. I agree with that in church matters, but not in the marketplace. Thoughts?
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Old Bob, aren’t there better targets than old Darryl?
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Old Bob – did you miss that DGH actually gives an “atta boy” to Carl in a round-about, wait for it til the end kind of way?
As an example of what happens to a mega-church when The Leader steps down, one only has to look at R. Shuller’s Crystal Cathedral in California. Shuller was unsuccessful in passing the torch to his son. After only a couple of years the Shuller son gave up on leading the Cathedral and moved on.* Now, Shuller’s daughter is the Director of Mission & Ministry: the top named “staff” person after Dad, who’s still hanging around. In fact they list a variety of directors or chairs of this & that, the only “pastor” listed is a lady who is “pastor of community missions.” Basically the CC is so big its possible to say it’s not even a Church any longer. That is not due only to size, but it’s an obvious factor.
* I forget the details, my folks where members for a time, but (no disrespect to mom) I just couldn’t stay attentive when she told me of the goings on.
-=Cris=-
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Cris, Old Bob and I go way back — to when he was young Bob.
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David Noe,
There are some fundamental problems with the Wal-Mart business model and its micro and macro economic impacts. I’ll start with the good. Wal-Mart has been a pioneer of supply-chain management and has revolutionized how we get products to the end user efficiently and cost-effectively. The problem is that Wal-Mart’s logistical mastery has been leveraged to destroy local economies, and regional manufacturing because Americans are duped into thinking that cheap products with a built in accelerated obselecence are the best way to meet their material needs and wants.
The fact is, big box retailers, Wal-Mart being the worst culprit have driven the cost structures for manufactured goods so low that local and even national manufacturers cannot compete, hence the glut of Chinese goods in Wal-Mart stores. Cheap goods in and of themselves are not a bad thing, they are actually a good thing, but when cheap goods destroy living wages and standard of living, they have an enslaving effect. Wal-Mart shoppers often must shop there because they can no longer afford to buy their groceries, clothing and home goods elsewhere. They can’t because when Wal-Mart moves to town it drives down local wages and local production. If I own a restaurant next to Joe’s Independent Supermarket and Al’s Sporting Goods, and Wal-Mart comes to town (or more likely 3 miles out of town since city council shot it down), how will my restaurant fare when Joe and Al have to close shop. How will the community fare when Joe and Al and I, who have paid employees livable wages, disappear? Sure new jobs will move to Wal-Mart, but ones without benefits and at basement level wages. How do local factories fare, what happens to those jobs?
Wal-Mart does offer cheap products but unfortunately they come at a steep price for local economies. I’ll try to dig up some stats, but they are staggering – almost everywhere Wal-Mart moves the local standard of living drops. So there is a point where the cost of cheap goods isn’t cheap anymore. Some of the other big-box retailers fare a little better, but that has to do with distribution agreements with local producers and the fact that they manage to pay their employees wages that they can live on. The Wal-Mart economy and Hayek’s insistence on low debt and high savings doesn’t jive. Broke people can’t save, and Wal-Mart is guilty on many counts of destroying local economies.
I am all for free-markets, but the reason why Wal-Mart’s succeed is because American’s are misinformed about the true cost of cheap to their economies. I can’t knock those who shop at Wal-Mart because they can’t afford anything else, but Wal-Mart has done to local communities is almost as unconscionable as what today’s megachurch culture has done to local churches in Protestant Christianity. At least we can rally around the latter of these realities right?
If you are interested there is a good documentary on the Wal-Mart problem called Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price and to be fair there is a pro Wal-Mart documentary that tries to combat some of the PR damage that the above film did. It’s called Why Wal-Mart Works: And Why That Drives Some People C-R-A-Z-Y
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DG, you could dub him Carliver Truewell.
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DGH:
Some time when your in town for a few days you should let me treat you and Carl to a beer, all 3 of us together in fact!
Brad: Carliver Truewell – I like that!!
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But Cris, I can drink a lot.
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Gary H:
“Pastoral care is rarely supplied by a preaching pastor for a church of any size” makes as much sense to me as “Hitting the brakes is rarely supplied by a steering driver for a car of any size.”
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Darryl, I believe you may be transgressing the 9th. Skinny, sensitive guys like yourself usually can’t do what you claim.
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DGH – skinny AND sensitive! For some reason that just strikes me as too funny.
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Brad, if we drink (and eat) enough we can.
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Jed,
Nice post with good economic analysis
Darryl,
I wonder if Rick Warren and John Piper would admit to imbibing in excess and gluttonous behavior on a public site!! It might scar their apparent holiness and lessen the amount of revenue pouring into their ministries. That’s what keeps me coming back to Old life.
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Jed,
I am curious as to Ben’s reaction to your post- being the theonomist that he is. At least Ben takes his Pastoral role to his flock seriously and does not delegate untrained and unqualified church leaders to do the dirty work of Pastoral care.
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I am also wondering if Ben would be reluctant to speak his economic viewpoints from the pulpit and even on a public web site.
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Dr. Hart turned me into an agrarian localist by encouraging me to read Wendell Berry.
…and I would never call Pastoral Care “dirty work”.
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Ben (Or Johnny Y for that matter),
Was there a response to something I had written that I missed?
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It is very easy and not necessarily smart to make critical comments in these blogs about men such as Carl Trueman. But the points made by Dr. Hart resonate with those of us who find Carl’s thinking of late becoming more eclectic, more catholic in the sense of drawing from and supporting a broader stream of thought. This confuses a simple observer like me, who once saw him as perhaps something of a standard bearer for the confessional church, especially as he is part of the WTS and OPC.
While Carl has written of ‘personality cults’ and ‘corporate values’ he seems to suggest on another level a liking and empathy for the very folks at the heart of this phenomena who claim some kinship with Calvin. But in virtually every aspect of ecclesiology, and with the quotes above in mind these personalities (CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll come immediately to mind) seem to defy any modelling of their churches, corporate strategy and practise on a Reformed confessional basis. Let’s not give such men and their organisations like DGM the ‘nod and wink’ of support if we truly and humbly believe that the Presbyterian model is the most faithful to Scripture and church government. So, maybe I am the only one who finds Carl’s approach more fragmented in terms of who he has an affinity with, and I may deserve a rightful demolition job and correction in terms of what I have written but there is some excellent points made in the main concerns of Dr. Hart.
Finally, and on a completely different note, I see Dr. Hart that in the last week that band we enjoy – Yes – has shipped it’s first new album in nearly 10 years and it is arguably the band’s best work in many a decade; who said that that the world and all talent belongs to the young?
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Paul, thanks for the tip about Yes. It’s hard to imagine the band without Anderson but I’ll give it a listen. As for Carl, maybe he would have benefited from more Yes and less Zeppelin.
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David, Jed’s comment about sums it up. The consequences of vast scale and low prices for local economies can be staggering.
Jed, great reply. Thanks. Please supply us with the stats sometime.
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Ben,
Perhaps “dirty work” is the wrong way to put it- it can get messy and emotionally and spiritually taxing. It also can be quite thankless at times from what I understand. Maybe theonomists have model congregants who are not as prone to wonder as most sheep are prone to do. I could say more but I better stop before I get myself in trouble.
As a Lutheran pastor once said- pastoral care will cause one to get dirt under his fingernails. That was why I reference it as “dirty work.”
“Holiness always has dirt under its fingertips.” (Bill Cwirla- Lutheran Pastor)
This comes from the parable of the good Samaritan. Jesus is not the good person who helps the guy in the ditch on the side of the road. Jesus is the guy who is in the ditch because of our sins. Jesus came to the earth to take our sin upon Himself- He dirtied himself in order to save us from ourselves.
In Luther’s early interpretations of this parable he thought Jesus was the good guy who helped the guy in the ditch while the others passed him bye. Later, he changed his mind and thought the better interpretation was that Jesus was the guy in the ditch. Taken in the context of Law/Gospel the latter seems to be the best interpretation of the text.
This is a law parable with a law question attached in the middle of it. The priest was unable to help the guy because it was against the law for him to do so, not necessarily because he did not want to. The key phrase in the parable is justifying himself. Never try to justify yourself before God- it is a losing battle. We have no righteous standing before God except through what Christ did for us and he dirtied himself in order to accomplish that for us. So, holiness always has dirt under its fingertips. He identified, became incarnate with us and actually came to earth in order to be up close and personal with us. Think about that for a minute. Almighty God and maker of the universe condescended to us in the form of a man and was spit on and ridiculed for our sake. He could have destroyed us all but weathered the humiliation and won our salvation for us. The proud and self-righteous cannot stand this. Those who think they are something end up being nothing. If that does not shake up your world nothing will. We are bombarded with the opposite type of thinking in the culture 24 hrs a day. The riff raff love this stuff- the proud, self-righteous and those who are “moral” in their own eyes cannot stand it.
.
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Jed,
An Austrian or Chicago school economist would not analyze the Walmart situation like you did- and most theonomists that I know of adhere to the Austrian school.
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A very controversial essay by Joseph Schumpeter (an Austrian schooler) is entitled “The Creative-Destruction of Capitalism.” You can probably google it and find the essay online. Jed, you would enjoy reading it.
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Here is a little backround information about Schumpeter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction#Schumpeterian_Creative_Destruction
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And now for something less important. Paul’s musical reference got me to thinking. What acts correspond with some of the representative lights from the constellations Five-ish Points Major and T.R. Minor?
NT Wright is Lady Gaga.
Keller is definitely Bono. Or Elton John.
Piper is Michael Bolton…the importance of being earnest.
CJ Mahaney…no, just dropped by his label.
Al Mohler is Lawrence Welk.
Mark Dever – two words: smooth jazz.
RC Sproul IS Tom Waits.
Lig Duncan is a poppy country act with crossover appeal.
Carliver Truewell just barely broke in to the Top 100. Does lots of session work with the big boys, gets invited to the big parties.
Green Baggins – the Pixies?
DGH – some of the critics were initially impressed by this dark singer-songwriter. Now he has a cool website and creepy groupies. Losing cred with those in the know. Skunk at the garden party.
Wes White – struggling regional act, but gets lots of downloads on iTunes.
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Before the bishop went glam:
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Regarding Jed’s comments on Walmart:
I have read that kind of analysis many times and find it unpersuasive, and contra Yeazel I have a lot of sympathy with the Austrian school and none with theonomy.
A few points about the economic analysis first.
When Jed writes “Americans are duped into thinking that cheap products with a built in accelerated obselecence are the best way to meet their material needs and wants” I find this patronizing of Joe Twelvepack rather than helpful. When it comes to critcizing the megachurch movement, we have a standard, the Scriptures and secondarily our confessions, by looking to which we can rightly say that persons are being duped, deceived, etc. Good 2k thinking, however, on the topic of so-called local economies (which are, incidentally, extremely difficult to define even long before the days of Walmart – any time something is imported, like beer from the brewery in the next town, there goes the local economy) ought to err on the side of finding wisdom in the everyday decisions of average persons, because we believe there are natural law, self-preservational ideas at work in their decision making calculus. In other words, we ought naturally to think that they are more capable of choosing what best conduces to their worldly maintenance and happiness than we are.
Another point. Jed writes “Wal-Mart does offer cheap products but unfortunately they come at a steep price for local economies.” Isn’t it more accurate to say that the “local economy” changes from one serviced by an individual proprietor to one owned by a corporation? There still is an economy, people are still buying things locally, i.e. near where they live. It is just that the ownership of the institution peddling the goods has changed. Isn’t it to fetishize geography to insist that the owner live nearby? It is at least different in kind from insisting that our pastor live nearby.
Jed writes: “Wal-Mart shoppers often must shop there because they can no longer afford to buy their groceries, clothing and home goods elsewhere.” This strikes me as simplistic and again patronizing. Do we know the motives of Walmart shoppers? And are the comparisons in mind really apples and oranges? It is a very common move in debates of this type to mistake choice for compulsion. We know that many people shop at Walmart. We assume that they do so because they “must”. Is that assumption made because WE don’t like to shop there or is there some evidence others are under compulsion?
Jed writes: “I can’t knock those who shop at Wal-Mart because they can’t afford anything else, but [what] Wal-Mart has done to local communities is almost as unconscionable as what today’s megachurch culture has done to local churches in Protestant Christianity.”
To me this misses the point in two ways. First, it again assumes that Wal-Mart shoppers are under some kind of compulsion and cannot prefer to purchase their products there than elsewhere. This may be to mistake our (Jed’s) preference for theirs. 2k thinking again, natural law analysis, should err on the side of respecting the non-theological, worldly preferences of others. In other words, since the optimal way to procure material goods is an area on which the Scriptures are largely silent (apart from prohibitions of theft, exhortations to thrift and industry), Christians should be especially careful in the application of moral judgments to the kingdom of this world in the way its denizens buy what they want and need. If the retort is “we ought to try to support local economies as a way to love our neighbor” I don’t think this holds any theological water. Everyone is our neighbor not just those in geographical proximity, and Christian freedom, a core part of 2k thinking, necessitates that we don’t tell one another how best to love our neighbor when it comes to shopping choices.
More importantly, and this was my main point, I contend that there is ontologically no such thing as a “local community” other than the church. For Jed to write that what “Wal-Mart has done to local communities is almost as unconscionable as what today’s megachurch culture has done to local churches in Protestant Christianity” is to confuse two things that ought never be compared. Where I shop, when I shop, how I shop, how much I pay, etc., these issues are not part of the eternal communion, the communion of saints. Where I worship, when I worship, how I worship (and maybe how much I worship), these are properly the business of my ecclesiastical authorities and of eternal significance.
Here’s the nub/hub/crux: the “local” movement with respect to church as reflected in DG’s posts and some of Trueman’s articles seems to me wholly biblical and right. We must prefer congregations where our pastors and elders know us, where we know by name all or the majority of the congregation, where the service of the Lord is not a celebrity event piped in on a big screen, etc. It’s a mark of our times that these points even need making. But when the local movement with respect to shopping and eating choices is treated as a similar kind of phenomenon, or more precisely one that springs from similar motivations, then I get uncomfortable. I have heard the argument that it is naive to get my electronics at Best Buy and my coffee from Costco but worship with 150 confessionalists rather than at a satellite campus of some megachurch. Aren’t there two kingdom issues involved in these assumptions?
Alright, blast away!
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I think was we see happening with CT is something very common and very human. We all tend to be hurt by our critics and to take refuge in those who defend and support us. That’s one dynamic. The other is that getting included in the “in group’ is very seductive, as virtually all of us can remember from our HS days and later our ecclesiastical lives.
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David, while I appreciate your sympathies with the common man and your rejection of some of the assumptions that go with common views of Walmart shoppers, I’d only encourage you to think about this In a town of some size would it not be more humane to have ten different shops selling various wares, owned by people in the town, than it would to have a large store three miles from downtown with an owner three states away? For the sorts of concerns that go with new urbanism and for reasons that Americans find European towns charming, Walmart is a speed bump sure to ruin the front end. I would be hard pressed to persuade Christians to avoid Walmart as a spiritual issue. But love of neighbor does mean something when it comes to support the businesses that my actual neighbors own.
Plus, Jed’s point about the economics of Walmart or any large corporation are not to be missed. Towns and local authorities usually subsidize places like Walmart by paying for roads, sewage, water, and the like because of the apparent tax revenues. But if a Walmart kills off other tax payers, then what has the “development” done?
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Dr. Hart,
To be fair couldn’t you say the same for Dr. Horton?
Dr. Horton has been very critic of the Seeker, Mega Church, Church Growth Movements, etc.. in his books and on the White Horse Inn. [and rightfully so]
Yet he too is chummy with Tullian Tchividjian and the Gospel Coalition folks too. TGC has recently released two video clips with Dr. Horton, Matt Chandler and Keller. I think you will quite disappointed with the Church & Culture clip. Dr. Horton starts well but he doesn’t really challenge them, when neither of them are really honest on how Culture driven both of their ministries are. You do search for Michael Horton on TGC site , you find quite a lot material on there.
He and his White Horse Inn co-hosts had chance to express their problems with the Seeker, Mega Church, Church Growth, Multi-site Movements when they taped a live broadcast during the Rick Warren make over party at the Desiring God 2010 National Conference. But they chose to do a show on Textual Narcissism instead.
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2010/11/28/whi-1025-textual-narcissism/
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I DO go back a lot, Darryl: WTS 1954. I go back a lot, now in these many comments to a subject probably overlooked in all the topics introduced since beer w. Carl, Darryl and another commentor. I know that Scripture allows drinking “for our stomach’s sake” and that God “made wine to make glad the heart of man”. Not a sin! But in a list, pro and con for teetotaling for Christians, the pro list in very much longer!True story: When I was at WTS in the early 1950s,my best student friend teased me about my dry stand. Years later he became an alcoholic. Much pain followed in his recovery! My wife of 58 years and I raised 3 sons and a daughter who now have been blessed with 25 grandchildren. My example has helped avoid booze in refrigerators and bypassing drinking with friends. Darryl says, “I drink a lot”. I love Darryl and am glad if he won’t follow the path of my friend. “Nuff!
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Not that I deserve in the least to be included among the worthies above who were given music identities but I was pleased that a friend bestowed on me such an identity that fits very well.
And Bill Smith is Bob Dylan –aging sage and nobody quite gets what he’s saying 🙂
I added that now that I am in my dotage I may start mumbling so that no one will have a clue what I am saying, much less what I mean. I think this could be very effective at presbytery meetings.
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Joe, fair points.
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Old Bob, why do you assume I am drinking anything but sarsaparilla?
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William H., is that the pre- or post-conversion Bob Dylan?
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If my neighbor owns shares of Walmart common stock, am I not loving my neighbor by shopping at Wal-Mart? In fact, if several of my neighbors own common stock of Wal-Mart I could be loving several neighbors at once by shopping at Wal-Mart 🙂
If someone already mentioned this I apologize, I have not read all the posts. I am obviously being somewhat tounge in cheek to make a point but sometimes Wal-Mart owners may be 3 yards away and not 3 states.
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Old Bob, props for using the t-word to describe your views and practices. My teetotalers seem to think it’s a slur when I use it (what’s that about walking and quacking ducks?). But have you considered that pathology owes to more than substance use? Which is to say that both non/teetotalers become pathological and temperance doesn’t ensure aginst it. I’m sure you have.
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John Y,
Thanks for the feedback, a couple of observations:
An Austrian or Chicago school economist would not analyze the Walmart situation like you did- and most theonomists that I know of adhere to the Austrian school.
No the Austrian School wouldn’t, but the Chicago school’s analysis would be different still. The problem is that I haven’t heard of any of today’s Hayekian economists refusing to drive on roads built by Keynesian policies, or older Libertarians sending their social security checks back on principle either. True Austrian schoolers wouldn’t approve of interest rates at zero, making the cost of money cheap and disincentivizing savings either. I am not against Chicago or Austria, rather I am of the opinion that an eclectic approach to economic policy works best, and that means employing Keynesian policies when it comes to certain social programs and public works as economic stimuli that aides in commerce.
A very controversial essay by Joseph Schumpeter (an Austrian schooler) is entitled “The Creative-Destruction of Capitalism.” You can probably google it and find the essay online. Jed, you would enjoy reading it.
I have read it, and we studied Schumpter in a few of my business classes. There is some merit to Schumpter’s premise, and the fact is markets progress and some become obsolete. No one disputes this. However, one of the things that Dr. Hart said in response to one of my gushing Libertarian responses on this blog stuck with me, and that is Libertarians do not always deal with people as human persons in the most humane ways. The problem with certain modes of capitalistic destruction is that first, it is not necessary as it undermines local (municipal all the way to national) economies by destroying means of production and shipping it elsewhere where goods can be produced cheaper. The factory worker who supports his family has little to no control over this. Instead, corporate execs seeking to maximize profit and policy makers enact the policies that hurt local economies in a way that the average worker and the local market in which he works have little to no recourse in preventing. Whole towns bust over this. I can’t help but think these sorts of destruction are unhealthy for the economy as a whole.
If we as a society embrace the free market system, which I think is a good thing, then we must also be prepared to deal with the human element of creative destruction so that we can keep homes and communities in tact. This requires a commitment to the health of the whole system, and I believe justifies certain kinds of government programs geared to economic redevelopment. I am not addressing the welfare system, because that system is broken, but we have little alternative in areas like the Rust Belt, and manufacturing centers such as Detroit since we haven’t adequately contemplated what happens when these markets collapse as a result of larger economic forces and policies.
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David,
Thanks for the response, however I fear we are far apart on issues of public policies. As a 2K advocate, I certainly wouldn’t want to deprive others of the freedom to chose where they shop, but I think your analysis is lacking in what happens to local (in this case municipal and mid-size regional) economies when the keys are handed to large conglomorates like Wal-Mart. I seriously doubt from your answer that you have looked into the economic ramifications of the business practices of companies like Wal-Mart. I’d really encourage you to do some further research here.
The rub is in our views of what being a good citizen looks like in the secular realm. I am of the opinion that human flourishing should be maximized throughout the system in terms of political freedom and in terms of economic prospects. The fact is, our economic system produces profound inequality, and the gap between the haves and the have-nots is growing at alarming rates. This isn’t good for the system, and it is largely due to a lack of regulation on systems that can become oppressive if left unchecked. This cuts to the hear of why we are in the current economic mess we are in today.
Now to the substance of your response:
When Jed writes “Americans are duped into thinking that cheap products with a built in accelerated obselecence are the best way to meet their material needs and wants” I find this patronizing of Joe Twelvepack rather than helpful.
Joe Twelvepack might be deficient in terms of service standards and product offerings, but this is a gross mischaracterization of the average small business. It is awful hard for a substandard small business to stay in business because competitive forces ensure that if Joe does a bad job, Jim will open a business next door and run circles around Joe. Joe will then be faced with a choice, run his business better or close shop. But local businesses can only thrive in an environment of strong local economies. When local economies thrive local business thrive because there is sufficient money in the local market to ensure that there will be customers for each business that offers quality products and services. If Al’s local textile and clothing factory closes down, leaving a glut of unemployment in the local market, Joe, Jim, and the rest of the local businesses suffer because money leaves the local markets, and if Al is big enough, it can so badly effect the local economy that many businesses close shop, and the flow of money through the local economy evaporates.
New scenario: Wal-Mart comes to town, because the local government opened the coffers to ensure that Wal-Mart’s site requirements are met, new roads, traffic signals, utilities, all feeding a single store front on the outskirts of the downtown area. Wal-Mart’s supply-chain is predicated on cheap foreign goods, and clobbering local suppliers on price cutting margin’s to razor thin figures (which is exactly what they require for their domestic vendors). Vendors that don’t comply are dropped at a moment’s notice, and Wal-Mart just brings in more Chinese goods. Since Wal-Mart offers so many goods at prices that no local retailer can compete with, they go out of business. Slowly but surely, a once thriving Main St. with many storefronts held by family owned business slowly close their doors. Local grocers cannot compete. All of the sudden when those businesses close up shop, foot traffic downtown dies, restaurants go out of busniess, repair shops go out of business. And what happens is local tax revenues die due to local businesses going the way of the do-do. This is only compounded because the city cut tax-breaks to bring in Wal-Mart, and their other revenue streams are drying up.
Employees at local patronages no longer have work, and are forced to take jobs at Wal-Mart at minimum wage or significantly underpaid management positions. Benefits are scant since Wal-Mart ensures that few employees qualify for their benefit programs. They even have offices set up to funnel their employees to Medicare, Medicaid and other state health programs, and encourage low wage earners to utilize food-stamp programs to help them make ends meet. All of these further tax social programs, but Wal-Mart is insulated from these issues as they make outstanding corportate profits. Local communtities are now buying foreign and non-local products, and the profit is leaving their communities and going to Wal-Mart’s corportate centers hundreds if not thousands of miles away. The kicker is that the goods Wal-Mart sells are often produced in countries without protective labor laws, so you have no idea who was exploited to ensure that your DVD player was only $59 and your case of tube socks were only $6.
Sure the goods are cheap, and for buyers who have the choice to buy cheaper goods even when they can afford more expensive ones, Wal-Mart is a great option. But many who shop there now have lost their local jobs, thanks to the shady competitive practices of Wal-Mart, and they can only afford the cheap stuff. For them Wal-Mart is the only store in town that they can afford to shop at.
Peter Drucker, whose Business insights are hard to top (his impact on the church growth movement is lamentable however) insists that businesses are organs of society and as such they are duty bound to seek its good. Good businesses can and should seek healthy the health of the overall economic system so that they can thrive over the long term. This means focusing not on profit maximization, a concept he loathes, but rather profit optimization. Optimizing profits means setting price at levels where distributors and vendors can make profit while maintaining healthy companies, it means not leveling main street to benefit one big-box retailer. It means that Wal-Mart should enter a market as a competitor, not a destructive force.
You are certainly free to shop at Wal-Mart, and I am not here to impinge on your freedoms here. Each man is free to act according to his own conscience, and I am not here to call it a sin. However, for me, being neighborly means trying to do what is best for my neighbors and their businesses. It changes where I shop and how much I consume. One of the saddest things I see in the Reformed world is how readily intelligent people open their kimono to the free-market in such an unthinking way. Free-markets are good things, but they aren’t an unqualified good and they certainly shouldn’t be baptized under 2k doctrine or theonomy or transformationalism, because we end up treating people like consumers and not citizens when we reduce the good of society to the wealth that can be generated by a few in a free-market system. It needs to be monitored and regulated in a way that minimizes human suffering instead of turning a blind eye to it and chalking it up to “Creative Destruction”
/ rant.
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William S,
Let’s just hope you haven’t taken Dylan’s song on Time out of Mind, “It’s Not Dark Yet” as your personal anthem just yet!
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Jed,
Thanks so much for taking the time to write that out – much to think about.
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No problem Todd, thanks for the feedback.
Here’s an interesting quote that Hayek apostles need to consider, he was not against regulating markets for the welfare of society, his approach was different than Keynes though. G.R Steele has an excellent article comparing the two economists…
The fact is, if the personal rivalry between Keynes and Hayek wasn’t so heated they could have synthesized many of their ideas, and we could have benefited more from the best of their economic theories:
Retrieved from Scottish Journal of Political Economy v.40 Feb. 1993 “Philosophical Perceptions and Precepts of Political Economy: Friedrich Hayek and John Maynard Keynes” by G.R. Steele
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Jed said: “I am not against Chicago or Austria, rather I am of the opinion that an eclectic approach to economic policy works best, and that means employing Keynesian policies when it comes to certain social programs and public works as economic stimuli that aides in commerce.” Right on brother, I am with you here. That is the conclusion I came to after taking my Business and Econ classes at Calvin and it is the opinion of one of the Professors I had there who I still converse with frequently. I was really into this stuff when I was at Calvin and we discussed Schumpeter frequently too. And I agree with your assessment of him too. Good stuff- you are getting my economic juices flowing again. After the hazards of working in a family business I have lost my passion for economic theory. I did just find and get a really good job recently so my passsions are beginning to return again. There may be hope for economic recovery in my personal life again.
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Jed,
Where are you taking your econ and business classes at? It seems that we have been influenced by similar type economic thinking. However, the Austrians were not discussed much at Calvin and were thought of as out of the loop of serious economic thinking. Most disregarded their ideas on the gold standard and their thinking on the abolishment of the Federal Reserve System. There is no way to quickly get economies out of down turn business cycles without the Federal Reserve, monetary policy and increased government spending. They also are very much against any kind of government regulation in any markets. This has proven to be very dangerous in differing economic markets. Sometimes it works in certain markets but in critical markets that have huge effects on lots of people it usually does not. There is a lot of varying empirical data on these types of issues so it is very difficult to come to any solid conclusions. Things have become so international now that this even adds more complications to economies of various countries. I do not follow the issues in economics these days like I did when I was going through business school. I was reading the editorial sections in the Wall Street Journal and economic journals a lot in those days. I would also follow some of the best economic thinking from each political party and from the various schools of economic thought. Most politicians would jump on the bandwagon of the parties favorite economic theororist. What made Clinton unique was that he really did try to synthesize the economic thinking from the various schools of economic thought. He eventually got persuaded to deregulate certain markets which in hindsight he probably should not have (especially banks and finacial service companies). It was a good idea at the time but eventually was abused and caused havoc. Enough said!!
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Joe,
Fair points made, but perspective would be good here. Carl Trueman & Micheal Horton are not even in the same hemisphere of the typical Neo-Calvinist/ GC folks when it comes to the theological issues of many who frequent this blog (myself included) have concerns over. All that said there is some good stuff at the GC (like Horton & Trueman), even though I share many the same concerns of the more Old School types about much of what goes on there. I guess I’m not sure what the expectation is of these two men when they are invited to these events or taping/programs. I have seen nothing from these two that would cause major concern, not even the taping of WHI from the DGC you site and I’m no fan of DGC. That WHI episode you site was a great program and contained items that the DGC/Piperites would have found hard to swallow. I would have much bigger issues with the typical GC crowd. (Piper/Driscoll/Keller, etc.)
These words have great wisdom whether its Trueman, Horton or anyone…………….”All of us have our inconsistencies and some of us have two-kingdom theology and Christian liberty to explain them. But as long as Trueman does not let his associations with celebrity pastors and presence at inspirational conferences prevent him from incisive critiques of the American church, I’ll continue to appreciate his observations even if few of his associates seem to be paying attention.”
My 2 cents…..Let’s cut em (Trueman & Horton) a bit more slack until there is more cause for Keller/Piper like concern.
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David @ 6:15:
>> Jed writes: “Wal-Mart shoppers often must shop there because they can no longer afford to buy their groceries, clothing and home goods elsewhere.” This strikes me as simplistic and again patronizing. Do we know the motives of Wal-mart shoppers? And are the comparisons in mind really apples and oranges? It is a very common move in debates of this type to mistake choice for compulsion. We know that many people shop at Wal-mart. We assume that they do so because they “must”. Is that assumption made because WE don’t like to shop there or is there some evidence others are under compulsion? <<
You've obviously not spent anytime outside a big city or suburban surroundings. Here's my observation. The Wife and I live in suburban Philly – a mere 9 miles from WTS – many options in terms of retail and business. We are both in healthcare, I'm a systems analyst. The Wife (an RN and Nurse Practitioner) is a VP of Info Services and some clinical depts like Radiology & Cardiology (Yes in the workplace she would outrank me). The Wife is at a hospital in semi-rural SC (comes home every other weekend). In the SC location there is a Wal-mart SuperCenter, and not much else left. Two other grocery stores hang in there, but the small, local shops (Main St) are almost non-existent. The only other game in town is a Lowe's, which covers the stuff Wal-mart doesn't. That's it.
We are pretty sure that many in this SC community would welcome options and choices, and indeed would welcome local ownership of small businesses and especially a stable middle class that comes along with those business opportunities. The Wife's hospital would in turn benefit from a local population that has money and/or health insurance so that the hospital is not constantly hemorrhaging money. We can see in SC what Jed has described so well in his posts, and see it in the lives of real folk.
-=Cris=-
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Getting back to the original post, three cheers for Trueman, and for Horton, for being willing to say things that make their mega-hosts at mega-conferences squirm. [Full disclosure… I’ve worked for Horton and WHI in the past.]… and for accepting every invitation they can to get their message to the widest possible audience. No doubt, there are compromises that an organization like White Horse Media must make to reach a wide audience… But Horton (and his Lutheran and Baptist co-hosts) don’t pretend it’s the church, they carefully distinguish it from the church, and they encourage at every opportunity those who hear or read their stuff to submit to a local church. I know Horton better than Trueman, but I’m pretty sure Carl would be mostly in agreement on that score. Ecclesiology… some got it, some don’t.
I’m an urban church-planter of a confessionally Reformed, Word and Sacrament, Law and Gospel church in the heart of Washington, DC (we now worship in Teddy Roosevelt’s old church). I don’t fetishize the city… there was no United Reformed Church for 200 miles, so we wanted to be central to metro DC, which put us downtown. But there are a lot of people here, and their church options are poor… unfortunately, it seems that too often confessional folks swing to the opposite end of the pendulum and avoid the city.
And our plan is to start planting suburban churches up and down I-95 corridor as soon as we are big enough to pay our bills, so I can keep shepherding the souls under my care.
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And on the other intertwined thread, I’m not naive about the impact of WalMart, but I’m inclined heavily to David’s point of view. I’m no economist, but my question is what’s so special about Main Street? Isn’t that just another historical, economic moment, a model that we have particular, romantic notions of. Sure, I like to visit. But everyone on the anti-WalMart side seems to simply assume that the loss of mainstreet is a net loss. I haven’t heard the argument for the small town main street as an ideal.
Well, what about the little farming villages that pre-dated Main Street? What about the purely subsistence farmers, prior to trade, prior to canals and other transportation infrastructure? It all seems a little bit arbitrary.
I’m not saying we should be as arbitrarily pro-WalMart, but it is fueled my consumer choices. The fact of the matter is that a lot of those many Main Street stores were peddling a limited selection, and some of it of inferior quality to what we get from China. Does the fact that it was locally manufactured make that crap better? Must we buy it because it’s local?
As has been noted, context is everything. WalMart’s impact on a suburb is totally different than their impact on a small town, but there are so, so many tradeoffs, pros and cons, that the two extremes of this debate seem mostly to focus on the areas that are of greater interest to them.
I’m also suspicious that the most aggressive anti-WalMart materials have been generated and funded by labor groups who oppose the organization for obvious reasons, and it seems to me that these labor groups don’t have a spotless record of supporting the best results for local communities, consumers, or the laborers they purport to represent. Doesn’t mean the materials are false.
Sometimes I go to the local hardware store, sometimes I go to Home Depot. Depends on what I need, how much time I have, how far I want to drive, etc. In many, many situations the smart small business can figure out how to provide superior value in enough circumstances to stay afloat.
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E. Burns,
DGM, TGC, T4G are basically the same folks, Piper is involved in all three and many of the keynotes speakers speak at all three or have in the past.
I would say as many as 80% of the pastors and laity that attend and speak at these conferences are involved in the pragmatism that Dr. Horton has written about in the Christless Christianity books and/or in Modern Reformation. All the co-hosts of the White Horse Inn have criticized these movements and methodologies in their WHI podcast.
Because the controversy of Rick Warren speaking there that year, Warren was the focus of that year’s conference, no matter the title. While I’m not say that a program on Textual Narcissism wasn’t a useful program, It didn’t address the Elephant in the room or the cancer destroying these folks churches or denominations.
While not as familiar with Dr. Trueman’s work, outside of his blog posts and lectures on iTunes U. I’m with Dr. Horton’s.
I will stop listening to the WHI or reading Dr. Horton, NO. But, I do think they dropped the ball here.
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E. Burns,
I have read your comments about Carl Trueman and Mike Horton, and just want to thank you for helping me to a more balanced view of these men and their approach to how they interact with others in what WHI has termed the Village Green. I equally though value Joe’s comments, and while we must be ready to ‘cut some slack’ I still contend watchfulness is still a priority in countering the cult of personalities which is embedded in the contemporary scene.
I see, in relation to this, that CJ Maheney is stepping down from the Presidency of SGM to take stock and answer some issues. Hopefully as such men have less of a high profile others will follows suit and write less, speak less at headline conferences, and generally get their heads down to be less known (if at all) ministers of the Gospel and pastors of the flock entrusted to them.
Oh, and Brad I think your comments on the music types for Christian celebs was one of the funniest pieces I have read in OL for some time – such writing makes this blog the best.
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Brian Lee,
What in that broadcast at the DGMNC made folks squirm? I didn’t hear it.
“[Full disclosure… I’ve worked for Horton and WHI in the past.]… and for accepting every invitation they can to get their message to the widest possible audience. No doubt, there are compromises that an organization like White Horse Media must make to reach a wide audience…”
If you make compromises to speak at a conference, Are you REALLY getting YOUR message out to the widest audience? Or does that lead to confusion when they hear or read your unfiltered message later? Or does compromise become what your about?
[Note: I AM NOT saying the WHI Folks are now comprised, just trying to flesh out Brian’s logic here]
While I applaud for Dr. Horton for not filtering his comments and thoughts against the Social Gospel and culture transformationalism at the Lausanne Conference that year. I just think he & his WHI co-hosts dropped the ball at the DGMNC, where their criticism against the kind of pragmatism which these folks are involved and promote would have done the most good.
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Jed, rant on.
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Brian, ecclesiology does not grant license for doing whatever you want with the parachurch. And if you’re going to critique those aspects of the parachurch that currently make it thrive, maybe you give up some of your involvement.
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Brian, as someone who has lived in Escondido (and was reared in Levittown) and now lives in a hyper-small town, I can say that small towns are better. It provides a way of life that is more human. One simple piece of evidence. You don’t need a locomotive to get around in a small town. Even mothers push their children in carts to purchase flowers and milk. Whenever you don’t need a machine to complete an ordinary transaction, it may not be the garden of Eden, but it is something on a human scale. In Escondido if you walk for a loaf of bread, you not only look like an immigrant but you risk your life. How does a pedestrian ever cross five lanes of traffic?
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It doesn’t matter much at this point I suppose, but to Chris’ comment about where I’ve spent “anytime”. I grew up in a very provincial and parochial area of rural Michigan and was part of the less than 2% of the U.S. population whose family earns its living from production agriculture.
My only point was that affirming both local church and NONlocally owned/sourced shopping preferences is entirely consistent. Lumping them together on alleged necessity, however, seems problematic. After reading more of his comments I don’t think Darryl was saying there is a necessary connection, though I hear others making those claims. Mom and pop thinking beats Wal-Mart every time in terms of what church culture should be. But the same does not have to be true for commerce. In the passionate Pro-Mart vs. Con-Mart discussion that point may have been lost.
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David, if your interested in provocative an intelligent Con-Mart perspectives, I’d encourage you to follow the contributors over at Front Porch Republic.
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Well said Dr. Hart at 3:34am. I completely agree.
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What I was trying (clumsily) to say earlier is that, in my opinion, the most effective and consistent pastoral care ought to take place in small groups. Considering the priesthood of all believers, we should not expect the head pastor to supply all the pastoral care/shepherding for a whole church. (But then I suppose that will open up a debate that asks to define pastoral care/shepherding).
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The driving/walking dichotomy, although related, is really a different issue from the city-suburb/small town division. It’s really an American issue. When a culture has the phrase “walking city”, something else is going on. As someone who lives in the suburbs of a relatively large city (population wise, for Britain) which has a relatively small central business district (or “downtown”), my experience is that whether one is in the city or suburbs or small town there is human interaction and our pavements are well used. Indeed it is in the rural areas that one finds disproportionate levels of driving. Americans don’t walk not because they’re in the city or suburbs but because Americans don’t walk. Maybe the reason mother pushes the pram to the shops is because father has taken the car to work?
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Translation for above comment – “pavement” is sidewalk in the Britain. In the sticks where I live “pavement is the curbless asphalt swath the we drive on. No sidewalks (ditches don’t count).
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Alexander, sometimes Americans don’t walk because developers did not consider that people might walk. Even in the leafy suburbs around Westminster in Philadelphia, you can find very pleasant sub-divisions from the 1950s that have no sidewalks. And this was before every school child needed to be chauffeured to school and turned rush hour into a daily nightmare.
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John Y,
I am taking classes at U of Phoenix, but that is only because I turned down Harvard, and Wharton first. Seriously, the program is alright, some real strengths and real weaknesses. As far as the Econ classes, the instructors have been compotent, but the real advantage is the resources available to UoP students on our electronic libraries. It’s fairly extensive and I can access almost any peer-reviewed journal related to business out there.
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Jed, no offense, but isn’t U.P. the Walmart of higher education? (I know, none of us is consistent.)
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Brian,
I do think you bring up some fair points here, I am not sure we agree, but it makes for good discussion. In the interest of full disclosure, I’d consider myself a staunch localist when it comes to politics. Globalism and a huge interest in national economic realities need to be synthesized in a way that works at a local level as much as possible. Anyway here goes my response:
The schtick about Main St. isn’t about Main St. but what it represents which is smaller communities in the American political economy. If Main. St. gave way to another iteration then we would be talking about that. But, Main St does hail back deep into our European roots and carries with it the notion as the town square where not only economics are in question but the ideals of local cultures. Surprisingly the New Urbanists are very interested in preserving Main St. as a smaller but highly relevant mode of urbanism. I’d commend the work of a thinker like James Kunstler, not necessarily his progressive politics but his notions of place are worth paying attention to both in traditionally urban centers and as well as Main St. Here is one of his presentations at one of the past TED conferences that is worth taking a look at Kunstler on Suburbia (Note: there is some profanity in the presentation).
The problem isn’t with big box stores per se. Some manage to fit in smaller and mid-sized markets quite well. So long as these retailers do not destroy working wages they can minimize their negative impacts on the local economy. Places like Home Depot and Lowes have also helped in bringing more small contracting to local economies as well, and they have left the door open for niche hardware stores that focus on superior service and knowledge in certain aspects of the hardware market. Wal-Mart on the other hand has had more of a negative impact on the local economy.
I am not a union apologist, they have often priced themselves out of the market. But I can understand the pull on workers to organize when they aren’t offered livable wages. In other markets such as car manufacturing Toyota and Nissan have managed to offer wages that protect them from unionization, I am sure Wal-Mart can do more to figure out it’s labor issues. But strong, high-functioning local economies may still want to think twice before allowing a big-box competitor in. They need to make sure it works for them, and the numbers need to be there to back that. Wal-Mart hasn’t had the same problems in markets such as Germany because they made sure Wal-Mart did just this, and they have managed to be a solid economic contributors. This is more about accountability, because some businesses won’t always police themselves. The public should be more wary. Sadly out current political atmosphere is lacking in this respect, especially when voting for American Idol contestants gets more run than some elections do. In some senses we get what we deserve, but we should be better about taking a stake in what happens in our communities since this can have as much effect as larger happenings at the national level.
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Brian,
Now to some of the issues more germaine to DGH’s post, I am very interested in how confessionalism is received in a more urban setting. Keller gets a lot of run in the Reformed world for championing urban ministry, but I am more interested in how you take confessionalism into a more urban setting. What are the challenges, in what ways is it easier to take confessionally Reformed churches into an urban setting?
In the end, confessional Christianity is as necessary in urban settings as it is in rural and suburban ones. I hope that God helps your ministry grow in DC.
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DGH,
Sigh… sadly I missed my chance to attend Smalltown U the day I enrolled at the illustrious Moody Bible Institute fifteen years ago. A wife and a couple of kids later and I was helpless to resist the lure of night classes and a quick path to degree completion. I really do feel conflicted about attending, but I am too far in to change course.
If had the chance to change, I’d have found an interesting major like viticulture or lit. or something at the Cal. Poly San Luis Obispo on the central coast. What a great place to go to school, but with the good surf and the good wine in the area I may never have gone to class.
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DGH,
In Escondido if you walk for a loaf of bread, you not only look like an immigrant but you risk your life. How does a pedestrian ever cross five lanes of traffic?
Live closer to Grand Avenue, and stop buying bread, and figure out a way to be independently wealthy so that you can eat at Champions or that french bakery across the street for breakfast, RO Sullivans for lunch, and Vincent’s for dinner six days a week.
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“I can say that small towns are better. It provides a way of life that is more human.”
For a little less than a year I lived in a rural farming community. The kid next door was always screaming at the topic of his lungs, his parents probably just glad he was out of the house. It seemed likely he was torturing animals to build his resume for a more devastating future. We were pretty sure his mousy mother was getting beaten on a regular basis.
In the next closest house (a 1/2 mile away) lived a very pleasant couple that attended our church for a while. And a few times we had pleasant (there’s that word again) conversations with them. It was odd, though, that they had no history. It was as if they were born 32 years old. After a while it was quite evident they were avoiding any comments about their lives prior to living in the community. We concluded they must have been on the witness protection program or they were very pleasant fugitives from the law.
Then we attended a party with three other couples. It started off well enough, but then there were a few off-color jokes. Now, I’m not especially squeamish about such things, but the jokes seemed to have a theme and a direction. We started wondering if the idea was for everyone to leave with someone else’s spouse. Yeah, we left early.
So that’s my rural (not actually in-town) experience. It wasn’t quite the post card experience I had anticipated. Plus, I think I’m quirky enough that I need a large population base so I can have a mathematically significant chance at similar-quirk-fellowship. And speedy internet.
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dgh- Do Americans not walk because developers didn’t consider they would walk, or did developers build “sidewalk”-less suburbs and exurbs because Americans are so in love with the car? Do Americans actually want to walk? One example I read about in the local Charlotte, NC paper when I was over was about a petition to lay a “sidewalk” on one side of a street in a residential area: such a proposal required the consent of every household- on both sides of the street! I don’t think it ever materialised…
There is an element of the chicken and the egg, but Britain loves the car and we still walk- and use public transport!
As to supermarkets: they are one of the primary factors in the improvement of living standards in the West. Intstead of food accounting for most of one’s weekly budget, it’s now cheap as chips. Nor do we (or rather, wives) have to traipse from one overpriced store with no choice to another overpriced store with no choice, so as well as saving money, having more choice, we save so much time. Supermarkets are convenient, better stocked, better priced. The reason Main Street failed in America, is the same as over here: people wanted a better selection at a cheaper price and supermarkets gave it to them. In doing so they did immense good for society.
Now, that doesn’t mean the behaviour of any particular supermarket is virtuous. I don’t know enough about Walmart to comment in any great detail. But the attacks on Walmart are attacks on the supermarket model: Walmart is just the easiest target. And a lot of the attacks tend to be made by people who have the means and the money to shop at farmers’ markets and boutique food emporiums. Most people don’t.
I should declare an interest: I actually work for a supermarket chain. And I can tell you that we make a big deal about sourcing our food from British sources, from ethical sources, using free range sources. This can make our goods more expensive, but a lot of people are willing to pay higher prices for such goods. But the crucial thing is that there are still the cheaper options available for those who don’t care about such things, or who can’t afford to. Supermarkets reflect the tastes of the public, hence the push on fairtrade and free range goods. It’s not a one way exchange.
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I would also add that supermarkets emply a lot of people. The wages may not be the best, but one small supermarket can employ more than all of a local main street put together. And during periods of economic downturn, such as we have been going through, supermarkets are the type of business that can stay afloat (people always need to eat) and so they’re often one of the best places to go looking for work if unemployed, and there’s far less chance of one being made redundant if already working there.
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Jed, SLO also has a good brewery. See what you’re missing?
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Jed, our one regret about our time in Escondido is that we did not live in the historic neighborhood. I’m a huge fan of the bungalo and grids resonate with decency and order. But the problem is that to get to Grand you either have to cross 2nd Ave. from the East or Valley from the West. That’s at least three lanes of one-way traffic, and those people don’t like jay-walkers.
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Alexander, there is a reason Americans are overweight, no doubt. But no sidewalks in a Leave-it-to-Beaver development from the 1950s? Did these developers really think that fossil fuel would last forever? Do the owners of Supermarkets and Walmart? If it becomes expensive, really expensive to deliver goods to Walmart’s stores, the model may not be so infallible.
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Joe, Brian & all,
Yep, I’m well aware that “DGM, TGC, T4G are basically the same folks” and that… “Piper is involved in all three and many of the keynotes speakers speak at all three or have in the past.”
I also agree that most probably………”80% of the pastors and laity that attend and speak at these conferences are involved in the pragmatism that Dr. Horton has written about in the Christless Christianity”
It has also got to be true that all the key players at DGM, TGC, T4G have to be aware that Trueman & Horton types are not exactly pipe organs for DGM, TGC, T4G. But to their credit they invite them anyway. Like any invited guest these fine gents use their manners and don’t piss all over their host by picking a fight. That is not the same as comprimise and nothing heard there “would lead to confusion.” In fact everything on that program is consistant with Horton’s and the White Horse Inn’s MO that they have had for 20 years.
This below linked episode of the White Horse Inn was recorded at The Gospel Coalition conference in Chicago. Joe, I think you will be happier with this one.
They specifically talk about about a pro 2k view and the dangers of pragmatism and the dangers of embracing a “transform the world” type of transformationalism. Man alive if we get overly critical of the guys on our theological team we play right into our critics who say we are just grumpy theological nit pickers. I would challenge anyone to listen to this program and tell me where it is not in keeping with a Confessional, 2k, “Old School Reformed” type of theological perspective. ???
What more do you want these guys to do, punch John Piper & Tim Keller in the mouth?
Joe , I love ya, I have sent many a folk some of your blog links and I get (and agree) with your concerns that these leaders stay on top of things, but in this case I think it wiser to just…………Cut em some slack.
Listen here
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2011/07/10/whi-1057-the-great-commission-the-great-commandment/
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I suppose that urban love is preferable to the alternative, urbophobia. The outer regions must not be neglected. However, given the choice, and absent other criteria (like ready core groups), urban centers would seem to be more attractive for church planting because you can draw from a higher population and the urban centers tend to have more influence on the surrounding area and nation.
Riley
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Alexander,
So, you work for a UK supermarket chain? Which one? I like EH Booths, the local chain which is still family owned and even promotes slow food. You mention the priority of choice in the supermarket ethos – that is very true. But the share price is the commanding factor, and you and I know that supermarkets will flog just about anything as long as it helps the share price and profit which helps it. So the base line is fair trade food is sold alongside food from just about anywhere as profit is perhaps driven by meeting all the types of customers, irrespective of food sourcing such as apples from New Zealand. So, if I go into Tesco there will probably be more trash nosh (sweets, biscuits, pies, cake etc.) and the such like as these sell well and help profits. And then there is the incessant push on alcohol. We both know that Britain has a serious alcohol abuse problem, and the supermarkets are part of the supply problem as they just supply want folks want.
Tesco is Britain’s parallel with Walmart, but more insidious and cunning in that it now wants not only to dominate out of town shopping but the high street too with it’s high priced mini stores popping up every where. And then the local butcher, fruit and vegetable shop and others are hammered out of existence. Morrisons is now flogging garden plants and trees next to the shopping carts, and what do the poor shop assistants know about the plants? Garden centres and their knowledgeable staff will feel the pinch as a result of the supermarkets wanting to have their finger in every pie.
Ask most farmers what they think of the super market chains – it is not favourable. Milk prices from the supermarkets have not been fair to the farmer, and folks should start to make right pricing and fairness to the suppliers a priority. But we both know that the Brits are obsessed with cheapness and this will continue to dominate our mindset.
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Brian- Does every country need to be able to produce all its own food? British farming produces some great food, but why should we be beholden to it for everything?
Some industries die out in some countries: in the West, this is most noticeable in manufacturing. We can no longer keep up and I see no reason to keep pumping money into an industry that is uncompetitive and not very good just to keep it afloat. As a previous poster said, we’re being very arbitrary as to the period we wish to preserve.
In the neighbourhood where I live there is a biggish Sainsburys, an ASDA superstore, a mini Tesco and Co-op all within 20 minutes walk from my door and we still have a local butcher and an independent baker.
I agree about the pushing of alcohol, but what’s the problem with “trash” food? People like to eat it, it’s their choice. At the end of the day people want choice and if it comes down to only eating strawberries when they’re in season or all year round, I choose all year round.
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Sorry, my last post was meant to be addressed to Paul (UK).
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E. Burns,
I was only bringing this up and mentioning Dr. Horton merely to point out that Dr. Trueman isn’t the only one from within our circle that is doing this.
What slack do I need to give? No where here or on my blog have I suggested that people should stop listening to the WHI or stop reading Dr. Horton etc…..
No need for violence, but if your critic of a movement be a critic. Don’t change your message merely because the cool kids invited you to their table.
Thanks for reading my blog, I’m taking a semi-break until Sept… I will be still posting blubs with links to good posts, but not as frequently. I’ve been suffering through a really bad series of inner ear infections since January. The infection and fluid build up are gone now, but now I’m dealing with the aftermath of it and what this has done to my equilibrium, For the last month to 6 wks, I have been experiencing bouts of intense dizziness and light headedness. My Doctors have me on meds for vertigo right now. The meds seems to be working, no bouts or drizzy spell since Sat. 7-9-11.
Plus I work for a water purification plant, which is very stressful right now. Here in Texas, we are in midst of a severe drought and the demand for water is insane right now, my three weeks of vacation starting in August can not get here fast enough.
When I start writing posts again, I have several books I want to review and several ideas for some articles as well.
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E. Burns,
Also I noticed that the program you mentioned is the latest one, I haven’t listened to it yet
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Joe,
You are right you have not suggested a cutting off of these men. I guess my point is we are hearing different things. I don’t see how one could objectively say they (Trueman or Horton)………….”changed their message merely because the cool kids invited you to their table.”
I think for example the WHI topic of textual narcissism was just the next one on the list they recorded that day and it was a fine program at that. I think you will be impressed by the latest WHI recording I referenced as it is right up our alley. All the more as it was at a Gospel Coalition Conf., yet I don’t hear them pulling punches or tossing soft balls so to speak. I hear them doing what they have done for 20 years.
On another note, my wife is from TX and we have many friends and family there. Great folks, but you guys can keep that heat. 🙂 I like being there as long as the air is on and the pool is cold in the back yard. 🙂
Brother, I pray the Lord bring you continued healing and His grace and peace to you. I will be looking for your posts come September.
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Alexander,
Just a few words to respond to your questions about food sourcing, shopping habits etc. “Trash food” is all the pies, cakes, sweets and the like we Brits consume in ever greater quantities. I am no food fascist, but as a nurse and seeing patients in a hospital I know the harm over indulging in these sugary delights is doing to us, ranging from diabetes to the problems of heart disease. A flour mill I use in Cumbria (The Mill, Little Salkeld) is the opposite of much of what the supermarkets provide. Family run, it uses UK wheat, grinds the grains on site using a water powered mill, and best of all sells products which they and I know are good from the source to the consumer. The cost is much higher than alternatives found in supermarkets, but I know that the farmer, producer and seller get a decent price.
Britain should aim to be self sufficient in food production. Dependence on our Russian friends for wheat is not a good policy, and we have a daft notion that we are a rich nation which can import much of what we need.
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Jed said: “If had the chance to change, I’d have found an interesting major like viticulture or lit. or something at the Cal. Poly San Luis Obispo on the central coast. What a great place to go to school, but with the good surf and the good wine in the area I may never have gone to class.”
Confessionalists can get away with saying things like that but those who oppose the confessionalist view may label you as a “creepy Hart groupie.” I could not resist commenting on that post and noticed that no one had said anything about it yet. I find your comment, Jed, honest and refreshing and we no longer have to pretend to be something we are not. The underlying poser no longer is of any significance- just like the celebrity pastor.
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E. Burns,
Their program at the Gospel Coalition, “The Great Commission & The Great Commandment” is more representative of what they should be talking about when they have the opportunity to talk about this type of Evangelical crowd.
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John,
I think the last time I was a groupie of any kind it was probably when I slummed around the indie rock scene in Chicago. That would have been a decade and 40lbs ago when I was waaay cooler.
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When I think of DGH and CT in the same context (as this blog post does), the movie “Grumpy Old Men” always comes to mind.
DLW
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