Several years ago I read a piece by Timothy George, part of the working group’s reflections on Catholics and Evangelicals Together, on Protestants needing to get over some of their hangups about the virgin Mary. It was the same day where I heard a sermon, in Berkeley, California, as I recall, from Philippians where Paul recommends Epaphroditus to the new church:
I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me. (Philippians 2:25-30 ESV)
I was recently reminded of Epaphroditus during a fine sermon in Belfast on the concluding verses of Philippians. I was struck before and more recently by this command to “honor” Paul’s co-worker. Whatever the Greek may mean, I thought it interesting that Paul commends Epaphroditus and does not even mention Mary in any of his epistles (unless the Mary referred to at the end of Romans was the mother of Christ). In fact, after the narrative sections of the New Testament, Mary is absent.
I understand this may reflect a certain biblicism on my part but I do wonder how the veneration of Mary squares with practically no instruction about her status, even by Peter, the rock and all that. I also find hard to fathom how Peter and Paul would react to the idea of Mary as the “mediatrix of all graces.” Perhaps a failure to venerate Mary or regard her as a player in the divine economy of redemption, combined with a reminder to honor Epaphroditus is in keeping with Mary’s own piety:
My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name. (Luke 1:46-49 ESV)
Mary apparently knew that it was God doing great things, not herself, just as Paul recognized the beyond-the-call-of-duty efforts of Epaphroditus were worthy not of veneration but honor.
Old Life 
Yes indeed! Brings to mind one of my favorite scripture passages, Luke 17:10 (and, of course, the preceding verses). In fact, I had this inscribed on my father’s grave marker, ex post facto, when my mother was buried later on top of his casket in a military cemetery.
The congregation to which we currently belong sends many missionaries throughout the world and I like to think (hope) that they go forward with the same attitude of humility, for it is not ours to determine who will believe and who will not.
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Expect the Called to Communion dudes to arrive around 8:00 a.m. tomorrow. They are taking the red eye tonight.
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To quote Tevye….Tradition!
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Hi OLT Guys, I see that my brother Erik has 67% of the comments so far on 11/28 posting. A bit high! Even for him! Now with Old Bob’s wisdom, here, he is down to 50%. Old math Prof. here! I met Tim George when he spoke at chapel, Covenant College. Chatted later. Sorry, Darryl, for another autobio. Said it before, I think: Another Tim, our son, has been teaching Biology @ CC since ’95. Love Mr. George, and his non-relative mate, Robbnie George of Princeton. Love the Georges’ efforts, along with the late Charles Colson, Manhattan Declaration. As a lifetime OPC guy I find many great Roman Catholics. “Get over hangups about Jesus’ Mom”? Right! I see many hangups @ OLT and some in our Only Perfect Church! C’mon, let’s take on some REAL enemies of our Lord. Not each other! Love, Old Bob. P.S. We are loving it here with 400+ co-generationals. Alexian Village was started 800 years ago by RC “Fathers”. Check us out on web, and memorize Psalm 103. OK?
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Old Bob, who are the enemies? Would those be the tax collectors and sinners?
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Old Bob – “Love Mr. George, and his non-relative mate, Robbnie George of Princeton”
What the heck does that mean?
Old Bob – “Alexian Village was started 800 years ago by RC “Fathers”.
What?
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Bob,
So basically we should not worry about Catholics and fight against the people at MS-NBC? Last I checked it was mostly Catholics stealing our members, not liberals.
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Old Bob, first you defend the Manhattan Declaration and Glenn Beck. Now the veneration of Mary? I’m not even sure Peter Lillback would go there.
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Erik, Old Bob may have found the mushrooms at the village.
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D. G. Hart: Erik, Old Bob may have found the mushrooms at the village.
RS: You are a cold-hearted man. Funny at times, but cold.
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Richard, you are a warm hearted man, not very funny, but warm.
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We are told by advocates of ECT (Timothy George) that we cannot insist on justification by legal imputation as gospel because to do so would call into question the salvation of all those people before the Reformation.
I agree in part—if we say that you must believe in Christ as the justifier of the ungodly to believe the gospel, then we certainly ARE calling into question the Christian status of all those who condition grace on something they do. We will no longer be able to form “conservative and moral” alliances with those who hate the gospel.
If the Reformation should have never happened, then it is clear that we should stop using Reformation language to describe our relation to God. If Reformation language is only a situation gospel, then we should indeed kiss the pope’s foot and bow down before Mary.
The “new perspective” tells us that in the NT the gospel is opposing Jewish privilege and is not opposing human merit (enabled by grace). In other words, as long as you say that God makes you different by grace and not by being Jewish, then there is no need to get picky about HOW you talk about the righteousness of Christ. As long as you don’t talk about your ethnic roots, then it will not matter so much if this righteousness is in you or in the finished work
But if it does not matter one way or the other, then why is Timothy George so anxious for us to repent and become more sacramental and “catholic”? Why the many wordy attempts to re-educate us protestants so that we will not talk about “faith alone” and “Christ alone”?
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McMark, Now I finally know someone in the “white knuckle” crowd. (that woud be you and Sean. Or are your shoes too tight?
Quick question: McMark, are you going to expound on 2nd Peter chapter one verse nine? Or do you only like the Scripture passages you “think” bolster your fringe theology? Why can’t you comment on verses that on surfice readings seem to contradict your theory regarding assurence?
Keep pressing on!
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mark mcculley: We are told by advocates of ECT (Timothy George) that we cannot insist on justification by legal imputation as gospel because to do so would call into question the salvation of all those people before the Reformation.
RS: Not to mention all those after the Reformation as well.
McMark: I agree in part—if we say that you must believe in Christ as the justifier of the ungodly to believe the gospel, then we certainly ARE calling into question the Christian status of all those who condition grace on something they do. We will no longer be able to form “conservative and moral” alliances with those who hate the gospel.
RS: That is also true. But be careful in saying that those who believe that grace conditions them to do what they do is the same thing as those who believer that grace is conditioned by what they do. The two positions are far, far apart. Even as far apart as the Gospel and the anti-Gospel.
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Nate Paschall: Richard, you are a warm hearted man, not very funny, but warm.
RS: Such a cruel and cold thing to say to someone with a warm heart who loves warm humor.
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ERIK: I just meant that Robbie and Timothy have the same last name—George. Alexian Village?— as I said, look us (them) up on line. MICKELMANN: Enemies? For starters— those who mess up our Father’s and His Son’s (John 1: 3,10 and many more Scriptures) beautiful Creation. Like those bad guys who support legalized murder of very young, old, infirm Image bearers of God etc. Those who change the beautiful God-word: “marriage”. Like Obama and his kind. Thank you Richard Smith. As I once promised and then broke my word, I want to concentrate more on our 4 “kids”, mates, 25 grandkids and other kinder, gentler friends than many @ OLT. Darryl I regret that you and your better half (so true!) may not have the TLC of great descendants in you dotage as Elaine and I have. Wow! Maybe some of the OLT scrappiness has rubbed off on Old Bob? Love, OB (not BM)
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Veneration hogwash. There’s a lot of worship and devotion and consecration and superstitious gobbledygook going on with Mary in Rome. Again, just because the CTC can parse RC dogma to within an inch of it’s life and declare it all coherent and unobtrusive of the Jesus’ office doesn’t mean it’s so. Particularly when the ‘community of faith’ or ‘response of the faithful’ continues to be one of the MAIN DRIVING forces in recasting and reformulating RC doctrine. That’s why you have an evolution(development that isn’t really developed but was already there in COMPLETE form, just waiting to be unerringly declared and codified, for now, until greater consensus is reached later) of the understanding of the role of Mary. It’s like former protestants become RC doing scriptural legibility, including exegesis, but then having to admit if you don’t share their metaphysical assumptions(thomism) or ontological orientation of salvation(thomism), well, then, the exegesis doesn’t matter too much cuz catholics aren’t LIMITED to the LEXICAL tradition. I.e. Tradition and the magisterium trumps scripture. We didn’t read scripture before 1965 and they still don’t much. Makes me mad at Mary and it’s not her fault but the RCers.
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If my Bible church grandma can live in the Masonic Home I guess I can’t hassle Old Bob about living in the Catholic seasoned citizens community. Pragmatism seems to increase with age, which may not be such a bad thing. It’s worked for Pat Robertson & Billy Graham.
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Hey Erik, When my sweet old Mom was 100 and I was 77 (2004) I asked her, “Mom, how does it FEEL to have a 77 year old KID???” “Bobby, (she never stopped addressing me thus) “Being your Mom is about like it ALWAYS was—- You have a LOT to learn!” Did I already share this with OLT? Be that as it may— Erik, if you have a grandmother living at a Mason place, or anywhere else, Can you guess what my Old Mama would say to YOU?! Have you considered that your mind and new life in Jesus may be too narrow as well as very new? Hey, Maybe our exchanges should be not at all or via E-Mail? Love (honest) Old Bob
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Hey again, Erik— Billy Graham’s latest book “Nearing Home” had so much earthly and heavenly wisdom for old folks like my Elaine and me. Isn’t he 94? Billy, the Georges, Bob and Erik perfect Christians? Nope! But sometimes you and Darryl give that impression. Keep “Nearing Home” in mind as hopefully you get to be a lot older and a lot wiser.
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Bob, how could I ever think myself perfect since you keep reminding me (even more than my wife) of how much I don’t measure up to your sanctified standards?
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Bob – Do you think Billy considers Mormonism a cult again now that Romney lost?
“Erik, if you have a grandmother living at a Mason place, or anywhere else, Can you guess what my Old Mama would say to YOU?! Have you considered that your mind and new life in Jesus may be too narrow as well as very new?”
I have no idea what this means.
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Erik Charter quoting Bob Morris: “Erik, if you have a grandmother living at a Mason place, or anywhere else, Can you guess what my Old Mama would say to YOU?! Have you considered that your mind and new life in Jesus may be too narrow as well as very new?”
Erik Charter: I have no idea what this means.
RS: Bob just told you to grow up in a nice way as you are rather narrow minded in need of maturity. By the way, no need to fire at me I was just trying to interpret what was said as (if DGH is correct) Bob may be out hunting mushrooms and be done for a period of time.
Bob Morris quote 1: “Bobby, (she never stopped addressing me thus) “Being your Mom is about like it ALWAYS was—- You have a LOT to learn!”
Bob Morris quote 2: Keep “Nearing Home” in mind as hopefully you get to be a lot older and a lot wiser.
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What is this the Old Bob and RS show? if it is ( and they make a perfect dynamic duo) they should take their show on the road.
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Old Bob & Richard – I love it when guys tell me to grow up at 43. It makes me feel so young! I have already changed my picture to Kip who lives with his grandma. Who do I change it to next, an infant?!
Just so I get this straight — I am too narrow minded about my theology (dealing with Catholicism & Mormonism, for instance) but too broad minded in my politics (not embracing talk radio hosts, Fox News, or whoever Bob likes). Since when are you broad minded toward Catholicism & Mormonism, Richard?
The point Old Bob misses is he cuts breaks & passes judgment on the wrong people because his politics trump his theology. I know 80-year-olds don’t change, though, so I cut him some slack. Is this really what he learned at Machen’s Westminster, though?
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And I know you’re not firing at me but just interpreting, Richard, but why do you give Old Bob a pass?
Old Bob – “As a lifetime OPC guy I find many great Roman Catholics. “Get over hangups about Jesus’ Mom”? Right!”
If I said that I would get about 27 Bible verses from you in minutes!
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Hi Fellows! I taught math for 31 years, 16 in the University System of Georgia. I was so encouraged when not a few students over the years told me they knew that I cared about my students and gave clear explanations. They said such things AFTER grades were given! 🙂 I am so glad that Richard Smith understands me. Sorry that those youngins, Erik, 43, and Darryl, 57?, often don’t. Elaine and I have a grandson aged 35, PhD Philos.prof ( U. of So. Florida) and another, lawyer, 29, in ATL Both grads of Notre Dame grad school! (Ravi Zacharias advised philosopher Michael to go to ND. He had also been accepted @ Emery, U. of Chicago and Yale.) When I tell anybody that we have 25 grands and 4 g.grands and this ND thing, they are SURE that we are RC. Even Erik and Darryl fall for this! Really, Darryl, do you think Old Bob thinks he is already fully sanctified? Have a HART! I think I should finally give up on OLT and spend my time with folks who understand me. If I do, I will miss you, Richard. Maybe others will understand me and be nice to me? I must say I will not miss the scrappers @ OLT, Hasta la vista, (Maybe), Amour, Viejo Roberto. (?Comprehende ustedes Espanol todos mis amigos?)
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Just reread some of Erik’s latest comments. Confirms my long suspicion that HE is sometimes Very in need of clarity! OB
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I’m fighting the urge to write a sit-com in which Erik marries Old Bob’s daughter, loses his job, then has to move in with Old Bob.
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Erik Charter: And I know you’re not firing at me but just interpreting, Richard, but why do you give Old Bob a pass?
RS: Right, not firing at you at all. Will try to explain the apparent pass below.
Erik Charter quoting Old Bob – “As a lifetime OPC guy I find many great Roman Catholics. “Get over hangups about Jesus’ Mom”? Right!”
Erik Charter: If I said that I would get about 27 Bible verses from you in minutes!
RS: I would agree with Old Bob that there are many great Roman Catholics, but that is different than saying that Roman Catholicism teaches the true Gospel or that all those great Roman Catholics are truly converted. I find that there are many great guys out there (in a general way) that are basically pagan. I thought that was in line with 2K theology.
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Bob M., I understand you. And I disagree with you.
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M&M, that needs a treatment, and then a meeting, but I’d watch.
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rs: be careful in saying that those who believe that grace conditions them to do what they do is the same thing as those who believer that grace is conditioned by what they do. The two positions are far, far apart.
mark: Is the distance that between “in my own strength” and Pelagianism? I am NOT saying that all Roman Catholics are Pelagians. I am saying that all who place their faith in what they think grace has done in their souls (by water baptism, by infusion, by impartation, by “created grace”, by “new nature”) are NOT trusting what Christ got done on the cross and are not Christians. Those who find assurance in grace conditioning their dispositions are not in submission to the rule of Galatians 6 to glory only in the cross.
Not all false gospels are the same. But the non-Pelagians who don’t put all their trust in Christ’s finished satisfaction of the law are just as condemned before God as the Pelagians.
Galatians 2 The life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
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Richard – Your last paragraph has restored balance to the force. I agree with you. I am merely pointing out Old Bob’s inconsistency in what he accepts and what he condemns. There are a lot of nice political liberals and 2k adherents, too, but he has nothing good to say about them because they disagree with his politics.
MM – Is she a looker? I would have a hard time living in the 800 year old Alexian Village. Too drafty.
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I envision a kind of “Brideshead Revisited” or “Downtown Abbey” meets “Mama’s Family” or “All in the Family”. Old Bob is Archie Bunker and I’m Meathead.
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MikelMann and anyone else following Old Bob’s persecution. (Thank you, Richard Smith for your great defense and explaining my views to the youngins) I am afraid Mikelmann will hane to revise his sit-com drastically—-Our only daughter is 5 years olderthan he, has 9 kids! Three of the 9 are married. She has one granddaughter. Wanna hear about their great lives? No I’d better not—Darryl has warned me that I am too autobiographic. Then why does HE say so much about himself and a bit about his better half? Black pots and kettles? Another problem for the sit-com: Eric is far too juvenile to live with us at Alexian Village. BTW this place hasn’t been here in TN since 1200 A.D. Alexian Brothers met 800 years ago in Germany to help needy folks of all kinds. Sorry, Old Bob was hard to understand that time! Another sit-com problem for MM— Elaine and I live in a 1 BR apt. and so wouldn’t welcome him as a former son-in-law. Other good reasons like I don’t think Elaine would like the way Erik treats Old Bob! Gotta go meet for lunch with NICE older folks, Love OB
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Erik, you can choose Ben Stiller or Owen Wilson for your part. For OB, I wish the Chief Inspector Dreyfus guy was still alive.
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“Our only daughter is 5 years olderthan he, has 9 kids! ”
No way I’m taking that on!
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Old Bob, what’s with the bios every time you comment? I think it’s terrific that Christ has blessed you so greatly, but to give us the rundown every time does not exude much humility. It comes across as chest thumping. But I am afraid that Erik is right, Billy Graham has been playing the politics trumps theology game for some time. 2000 years ago the Jews were looking for a political answer to the Romans’ rule, the Christ came instead. American evangelicals are still looking to politics for answers and we have been misled time and again.
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