First the story:
In mid-December, six-year-old Isaiah Martinez brought a box of candy canes to his public elementary school. Affixed to each cane was a legend explaining the manner in which the candy symbolizes the life and death of Jesus. Isaiah’s first-grade teacher took possession of the candy and asked her supervising principal whether it would be permissible for Isaiah to distribute to his classmates. The teacher was informed that, while the candy itself might be distributed, the attached religious message could not. She is then reported to have told Isaiah that “Jesus is not allowed at school,” to have torn the legends from the candy, and to have thrown them in the trash.
Such is the account of Robert Tyler of Advocates for Faith & Freedom, who is serving as media spokesman for the Martinez family. Organizations such as Fox News and Glenn Beck’s The Blaze latched onto the story with purple prose and pointed commentary to rally the base. The Daily Caller described the teacher as having “snatched” the candy from Isaiah’s hands, “and then—right in front of his little six-year-old eyes—ripped the religious messages from each candy cane.” Fox News said “it takes a special kind of evil to confiscate a six-year-old child’s Christmas gifts.”
Turns out the teacher in question is a Christian and her former pastor explains what may have happened:
Such behavior would be entirely unbecoming of Christians even if the teacher in question were all the things she has been called. In fact, she is herself a pious and confessional Christian, though it would be impossible to discern as much from the coverage of much Christian media.
I know this because I was present at her baptism; I participated in the catechesis leading to her reception into the theologically (and, overwhelmingly, politically) conservative Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod; I preached at her wedding; my wife and I are godparents to her children, as she and her husband (who is himself on the faculty of a Christian university) are to our youngest. Needless to say, I have complete confidence that her far less dramatic version of events is much the more accurate account.
Some will say that precisely as a Christian she should have had the courage of her convictions and allowed the distribution of a Christian message in her classroom. And yet, precisely because she is a catechized Christian, perhaps she understands that in her vocation she serves under the authority of others.
Perhaps it was wise in the litigious context of America’s public schools to confer with and defer to the supervising principal. Indeed, a lawsuit arising from virtually identical circumstances is still, ten years on, bogged down in the courts. If the answers to the pertinent legal questions are not immediately obvious to the dozens of lawyers and judges involved in this previous case, one can hardly expect them to be self-evident even to an intelligent primary school teacher. Thus, those critics who have dismissively counseled her simply to “read the Constitution” betray (in addition to a lack of charity) either an unhelpful naivety or a willful ignorance.
Of course, if you want to score points in some sort of publicity competition, demonizing this woman is not a bad strategy, though why Reformed Protestants also resort to such behavior (yes, I’m thinking the BeeBees and Rabbi Bret) is another question. But if you want to think through the layers of significance in such occurrences, maybe it’s better to check if as in this case the teacher belongs to a church and what her pastor thinks.
Old Life 
Back in 2000, at a Christmas party for our fledgeling church plant, a lovely evangelical woman asked me to read “The Legend of the Candy Cane” to the assembled group. As I recall, it declared that when those nasty Puritans banned Christmas, one godly candy maker made the first candy cane as a means of secretly affirming Biblical doctrine. I declined on the grounds that it was a) demonstrably historically false, since such sugar based candies were not available in the 17th century and b) a scurrilous slander against Puritans who, while they may have had issues with Christmas, would have been very happy to allow said candy maker to speak openly to his neighbors about such doctrines as the Trinity and the substitutionary atonement. She responded huffily that she didn’t care whether the story was true; she liked it. The couple never came back to our church afterwards…
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For the sake of accuracy, if anyone cares about precision, it was at a Fox News opinion blog
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/07/teacher-tells-6-year-old-jesus-is-not-allowed-in-school/
which isn’t synonymous with “Fox News.” Further, the story about the woman does not appear to be inaccurate–she did what they said she did. that she’s a baptized Lutheran isn’t terribly relevant. in fact, the First Things article asserts she was acting out of her religious beliefs! Apparently hers are fine, but not the kid’s.*
As for Darryl’s habitually selective outrage at the right, in this case Fox News, the question of whether he is a Chomskyite was perhaps unfair, but not unreasonable. His socio-political targets are pretty much the same as MSNBC’s, excpet MSNBC’s a little less hostile to catholicism.
_
* “If the answers to the pertinent legal questions are not immediately obvious to the dozens of lawyers and judges involved in this previous case, one can hardly expect them to be self-evident even to an intelligent primary school teacher.”
Right. So put a lid on it, sister. Baby Jesus is no threat to the republic.
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Wow! Kudos to that pastor — I’ve never seen better representation of 2K (or use of the religious word “confessional”) in public before!
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And that story reminds me of the “12 Days of Christmas is Christian Code” myth. See Snopes
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I hear far better Christian music when I go to my kids’ public school chorus concerts than I do on my infrequent visits to evangelical churches.
Regarding the story – are we relying on the eyewitness testimony of a six-year-old? I have a six-year-old and he’s a great kid. Let’s just say his mastery of the facts is not always reliable. Earlier this football season he heard Megatron had quit the Lions. He had me mail a letter he wrote to see if it was true. We haven’t heard back.
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My son would bring up Jesus during class in his public high school. He was fond of teaching his classmates Reformed resistance to tryanny.
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igasx
Posted January 17, 2014 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
My son would bring up Jesus during class in his public high school. He was fond of teaching his classmates Reformed resistance to tryanny.
Excellent. Tell them about it here.
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Tom- pearls and swines and running against the wind.
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How about “do unto others”? I’ll teach my own child religion, thank you, rather than have him learn candy wrapper religion from whatever his respected teacher may pass out. Anyway, this kid could could have given candy to kids before or after school. If his parents were trying to instigate a conflict then shame on them for putting their child and teacher in that position.
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igasx, do you blurt out Jesus in the middle of business meetings, negotiations, and other workplace gatherings?
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Counselor- in terms of authority proscribed in our laws, which comes first, natural rights or prohibitions?
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igmeister, not the point. There are better and worse times for types of speech. People who don’t observe such distinctions are bellicose or a little off.
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GAS-X, what, no modeling of submission to authority? But maybe you and the little gassers rated more liberal than conservative when it came to questions about children and authority and self-control and self-expression.
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Not the point, counselor? Is the Reformed faith a “Miss Manners” school of etiquette? I thought it was about authority? Why the spin?
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Zrimsky- he learned proper respect and the fall of man. Those are not dialectical. He also learned sentimentality is a poor excuse.
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Ma relates to me now how I had the entire kindegarten class in a stir because I told them they were all going to hell, upon finding out they didn’t have Jesus in their heart. She found out when the avowed atheist (friend of my mom) called her and told her to stop that Andrew from upsetting her daughter.
Need I say it? Everyone together now, “the more things change..”
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Well, gas, since you lead with calling people here “swine” I understand this whole conversation is an uphill battle. But, Great Communicator that you are, you haven’t forthrightly answered any of my questions.
But here’s another angle: school teachers, whether public or private, are not proper purveyors of religion. The church is. Parents are. But schools have plenty to do and are not well-suited to do such a thing. Sorry if I missed where Christ established the school to baptize and make disciples of the nations.
Sure we could have free speech run amok where the JW kid passes out tracts, another child praises Allah and the teacher promulgates the teachings of a Pentecostal sect. Does it matter whether the candy wrapper message was a little bit of sweet Pelagianism? It should, but you have the culture warrior’s reflex that foes to battle bereft of such details.
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So he’s in favor of candy cane messages but not sentimentality. I’m gonna get a bag of popcorn for this one.
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Free speech run amok? That JW tract is the same as yelling “fire” in a crowed theater? C’mon man! The funny thing is that your cultural restrictions are just as “culture warrior” as the most hardcore Christian dominionist.
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If you want legalities, there are forums that are pretty much totally open but most have limits, so the idea that free speech means you can say anything you want anywhere you want is simply false. But it’s too bad when Christians need the raw restraint of the law rather than being governed by wisdom and a healthy sense of time and place.
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MM- I don’t want to make you feel as if I left some important question unanswered. I assume that you want to know what limitations I use in various business and social settings? I “blurt” out many things. The extent to which I mention Jesus depends on whether I think it is pertinent to the conversation. I’m not prone to be worried about surface level appearances. If I were prone to surface level piety I’d probably convert to Romanism.
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Counselor- my point is that I want to be sensitive to our laws. Our laws stipulate a hierarchy of rights and power. But you seem willing to dismiss our laws for some other notion of that hierarchy. Whose using wisdom? I thought conservatives were for institutions?
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” If I were prone to surface level piety I’d probably convert to Romanism.”
So now the candy cane Jesus on a fortune cookie paper is deep piety, and the contrary is Romanism? You’ve jumped the shark. I know you are all about the culture wars but I thought you could do better than this.
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Mighty Jehovah was reincarnated as Barney the Christosaur.
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Tom vd, Mockery equals outrage? Are you a girl?
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MM- I believe you’ve been watching too much Carville. Nice smear. Fear the culture warriors who stand over the poor candy cane holder telling him of his lack of etiquette, education, and sophistication. ” Be quiet little boy- you shall be ruled by philosopher kings”
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From the letter of the child’s parents’ attorney:
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Mr. Pfitzer reaffirmed that Isaiah was not permitted to hand out religious messages on school property, but could hand out the messages off campus as students left the school. By that time, only ten minutes were left in the school day. Alexandra then spoke to Ms. Lu who instructed Alexandra to take Isaiah outside the gates of the school just before the end of the school day in order to distribute Isaiah’s Christmas gift as children left the school. Alexandra then took Isaiah outside the schoolhouse gate and he attempted to distribute his Christmas gifts to the students from his class amidst the end-of-day scamper.
______________
So the child was permitted to leave school early to get a good spot to pass out the candy tract outside of the school. Maybe the teacher wasn’t on a mission from the devil after all.
Part of the problem here is the gullibility and mob mentality of culture warriors. Thus their reaction:
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The trolls who inhabit online comment boxes were less restrained. The teacher was a liberal, communist, dictator—not only hateful and anti-Christian, but devil worshiping. Amid calls for her firing and observations that a worse fate awaits her in the afterlife, temporal punishments ranging from the obscene to the criminally violent were repeatedly suggested. Isaiah’s teacher has now become the regular recipient not only of hate mail, but of personal threats that have prompted her school to hire on-site security.
__________________________
For comments from the mob, see http://visiontoamerica.com/16580/teacher-destroys-students-candy-cane-gifts-and-says-jesus-is-not-allow-in-school/
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iggy, “you shall be ruled by philosopher kings.”
Right, an LCMS female public school teacher. Scary.
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diggy, scary indeed that she succumbs so easily to philosopher kings in contradiction to the basic foundation of U.S. law.
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igas, is compassion a Christian virtue? Here’s a LCMS teacher and let’s – counter to warrior impulses – charitably say she is trying to be a good teacher and obey the law. This family forced the teacher and the administration into a sticky situation in which they had to make a quick decision on how to avoid violating either the free exercise or establishment clauses. (And they used their child to do create the difficult situation.) The teacher went to her superiors for directions on how to handle the situation and she followed those directions. But then she arranged it so the child could leave early to pass out the candy canes in a place that did not create any dilemma.
You and your peeps owe her an apology. And congrats, parents, you’ve divided your child from his teacher and have guaranteed the school teacher will have ongoing distress from both potential litigation and the mob with pitchforks.
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MM – Sorry if I missed where Christ established the school to baptize and make disciples of the nations.
Erik – That was on his little-reported trip to Holland.
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MM – The trolls who inhabit online comment boxes were less restrained. The teacher was a liberal, communist, dictator—not only hateful and anti-Christian, but devil worshiping. Amid calls for her firing and observations that a worse fate awaits her in the afterlife, temporal punishments ranging from the obscene to the criminally violent were repeatedly suggested. Isaiah’s teacher has now become the regular recipient not only of hate mail, but of personal threats that have prompted her school to hire on-site security.
Erik – Wow, Baylyblog is on the story already.
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GAS-X, but what has he learned about turning cheeks, walking second miles, and handing over tunics? Texts that rule the land may give him warrant to resist tyranny, but the Bible doesn’t. But I think this is the part where you hang candy canes on Paul’s Roman citizenship.
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gasx, you and your peeps created Todd Starnes.
___________
Starnes sells us what we want to hear. We want to believe that we are the underdog. And Starnes sells us that story, wrapped in language of patriotism and faith. For our own good, we need to reject and denounce hucksters like Starnes. For our own wisdom, for the witness of the Church, and simply because lying is wrong. Starnes should not have a job as a journalist, but more importantly, we should not support him by sharing and promoting his deceptions.”
_______________
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christandpopculture/2013/12/todd-starnes-sold-us-a-war-on-christianity-we-bought-it/
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D. G. Hart
Posted January 17, 2014 at 9:02 pm | Permalink
Tom vd, Mockery equals outrage? Are you a girl?
You call me tom vd and then ask that question?
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MM- nice use of sentimentality where we can weep over how cruelly the parents divided their child from his teacher. But I get the impression that if this particular case involved adults in a governmental situation trying to exercise their free exercise rights you would still side with the philosopher kings. My peeps are individuals protected under the Constitution not philosopher kings.
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As to the issue, it was not misreported. Why the teacher felt she had to strongarm the kid with culture war is the real mystery here.
Forget the legalities, which are foggy. The harassment of the child was unnecessary.
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Tom, it gets a reaction, that’s the point. Those of us middle and second borns (though I hate tacking that way) will never stop. Get used to it, you’ll only provoke him.
We’re not a church, we’re a blog. We all get to act like Brother Martin when we get the urge..
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And careful how you tack. You started calling me names (shall I link?) 100% unprovoked. I’m not sinless. But surprise, neither are you.
Wade carefully, yo.
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“As to the issue, it was not misreported.”
You would only reasonably know it was true if you were there or you have interviewed both sides. A good example of how culture warriors, who see themselves as quite aware, are actually quite gullible. It fits your narrative, you believe it.
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So Tom has Veracity Disorder, who’s to judge?
Yeah, I found “veracity” on my Word thesaurus gizmo.
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Tom- I believe it’s far foggier as to the teacher’s intent in that statement. “Jesus is not allowed in school” could have been said with resign or regret. We don’t know. What we do know is that people are allowed to speak freely and exercise their religion.
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mikelmann
Posted January 17, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink
“As to the issue, it was not misreported.”
You would only reasonably know it was true if you were there or you have interviewed both sides. A good example of how culture warriors, who see themselves as quite aware, are actually quite gullible. It fits your narrative, you believe it.
Actually, it was the teacher who was thugging on behalf of the culture war. Why she felt she had to harass a 6-yr-old over something this petty is the real question.
As for the constitutional question, whether we must have a Naked Public Square is far from settled. My own take is that “neutrality’ isn’t neutral, it’s anti-religion. Pluralism was the founding intention. And that includes Muslims and JW’s, of course. Proselytizing is the “free exercise” guaranteed by the First Amendment, and the 6-yr old was NOT “establishing” religion.
As for the non-legal approach, this was BS. The teacher was out of line, imposing HER religious/constitutional opinion on the kid.
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Media is always a big problem. The more I try to follow the news, the worse it’s gotten.
Reformed don’t care about. What churchman doesnt have enough on his plate in his own church.
Like duckbeard, we as Christians must see these things as they are, products of our connected age. Nothing to see here.
And yep – pastor of the church. Darryl drops in the three. How typical.
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I get it, Gas. Combative behavior is virtue and both prudence and common consideration of others is sentimentality.
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Andrew Buckingham
Posted January 17, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink
And careful how you tack. You started calling me names (shall I link?) 100% unprovoked. I’m not sinless. But surprise, neither are you.
Wade carefully, yo.
You mean calling you “Captain Spaulding*” because you’re always saying adios after you drop in and write a comment, as though you aren’t staying for the reply?
That was teasing. You’re comparing that to making people’s names into “venereal disease” and “dumb” and “youloses,” etc.? EVERY TIME you reply to them? C’mon, AB, that’s an insult of any intelligence present. It’s schoolyard [stuff].
I’m fascinated at this point, especially some people signing their real names and reputations to it.
_________________
*”Groucho’s theme: “Hello I Must Be Going”
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Tom, I told you what you already know. Remember, the third graders enjoyed Buckingham for all the ucks yucks they could get.
That catholic sister may have been tougher, but just get back to the issue. If it honestly bugs you, just don’t mention it. Rememeber, it will get him fired up. You’ve been warned.
Hail Luther.
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igasx
Posted January 17, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink
Tom- I believe it’s far foggier as to the teacher’s intent in that statement. “Jesus is not allowed in school” could have been said with resign or regret. We don’t know.
Could be. That’s a good point. But there is so much thuggery going on that if I/we/the country leapt to this conclusion, it’s hardly unreasonable.
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/johnransom/2014/01/12/obama-picks-on-someone-his-own-size-little-sisters-of-the-poor-catholic-nuns-n1777583/page/full
And if 2Kers don’t want to stand up for their own religious rights* that’s fine, but being MIA when it comes to those of others is crap.
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*Per your original comment, which has been marooned in a sea of other stuff
igasx
Posted January 17, 2014 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
My son would bring up Jesus during class in his public high school. He was fond of teaching his classmates Reformed resistance to tryanny.
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ps Tom, you caught on to my tactics here quick, I’ll admit. But hey, it could be worse. We could moderate comments. For all the garbage out here, you gotta admit, you’re still here. Yo.
Peace.
PPS if the back’s gettin’ better, do get out to the range. If your weather is anything like us 4 hours north of you, remember, all these other guys have good reason to crab.. (sorry, I took us off issue. I’m eating popcorn, in my lazy boy, watching you big guns now. Honest).
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MM- ask that question to Jeremiah, Amos, and Jesus. Let me know how prudence works into it.
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Tom said: ‘ And if 2Kers don’t want to stand up for their own religious rights* that’s fine, but being MIA when it comes to those of others is crap.’
AMEN!
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Hey gas,
For me, it’s an issue of where to draw the line. I said a few comments above the media is the problem. I recall watching Benghazi unfold. I watched as say, for example, Rice spoke about it. I remember that live.
My point is, I don’t know who to believe. 2K ain’t the gospel (sorry folks, let the tomatoes fly!) but it’s hugely helpful for the church. I think Christians are free to disagree with 2kers, but my point a few comments up is that the workers of the church have their plates full already, and don’t need the media filling us all with ideas that our overworked pastors need to be culture warriors as well. Quite frankly, I don’t know how they do it, or how we keep finding such good men to staff our pulpits.
We need not give them more reasons to be shooed away.
Peace.
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Andrew Buckingham
Posted January 17, 2014 at 11:07 pm | Permalink
Hey gas,
For me, it’s an issue of where to draw the line. I said a few comments above the media is the problem. I recall watching Benghazi unfold. I watched as say, for example, Rice spoke about it. I remember that live.
My point is, I don’t know who to believe. 2K ain’t the gospel (sorry folks, let the tomatoes fly!) but it’s hugely helpful for the church. I think Christians are free to disagree with 2kers, but my point a few comments up is that the workers of the church have their plates full already, and don’t need the media filling us all with ideas that our overworked pastors need to be culture warriors as well. Quite frankly, I don’t know how they do it, or how we keep finding such good men to staff our pulpits.
We need not give them more reasons to be shooed away.
Peace.
I don’t have a problem with “conscientious objectors.” In fact, I admire the Anabaptist tradition [even though they’re freeloaders, let’s face it].
My biggest ire is for 2K-type “conscientious objectors” to the culture war who criticize others who have taken a stand. It you’re going to sit it out, then sit it out.
Because if you’re going to side with the secularists, the “strict separationists,” then you HAVE chosen a side in the culture wars anyway, so just be honest about it.
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Tom, 2k is a fascinating topic (i mean, just check out this blog!). As much as that is true, booze and movies await. Why lie.
I won’t be back for a while 🙂
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Andrew- I agree for the most part that Pastors do not need to be involved in cultural issues except to point out the sins of the immediate zeitgeist. The lines of the battle have been drawn so that the extremes of both sides smear anyone who does not hold to the strict orthodoxy of their side with the caricatures of the other side.
In this case, where I make the case that submitting to authority, the supposed crux of the proposed 2k thesis, is being subverted in this case because of a denial of a basic foundational law, I am tarred as some sort of Christian cultural warrior. I’m upholding their thesis yet tarred as a heretic.
?
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thanks, gas, for the reply. im off trying to find a good movie (ive got a few of dgharts line up, if i need to). peace to you and yours.
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degas (hey, I’ll just let that autocorrect stand): make distinctions. You aren’t a prophet or the Savior. And this isn’t Israel.
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MM- maybe not, but I am human just like them… or is there a particular personality required in this dispensation?
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Would it be legitimate for you to lie on your side 390 days (Ezekiel), marry a “harlot” (Hosea) or slay the followers of others gods (Elijah)? Do you really think the key is personality types? You know better than that.
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MM- those examples prove my point. You seem to think that wisdom is reduced to prudence. They’re not synonyms. God, in his providence, used non-prudent actions as the wise course to his plan. What’s to say he doesn’t use non-prudent actions today?
Was it prudent for MLK to put so many black people in harm’s way? Was it prudent for Mandela to stay in prison rather than accept a deal and an early release? and the list goes on and on.
Certainly, prudence can be an aspect of wisdom but equating prudence with wisdom is neither prudent or wise.
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gas, everyone’s got their opinions out here, makes this stuff fun. I see what your doing with words here. Again, fun. Nice connecting with you today at OLTS. See you around, have a nice day.
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PPPS tom,
At least you are brave, unlike some papists, though its hard to fault them for the way the treatment goes around here. What can we say, small churches are desperate, that ken fellow says we a Napoleonic psychially challenged. Whatever, you think he knows? Enjoy you day, I want to see you be brave, yo yo…
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Gotta end on a high note:
Next up to the tee (as said over the loud speaker) is………
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Tom, lots of people go by initials. Why you even do in your email address.
Butch up, brah.
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iggy, Bill O’Reilly and Glen Beck as peeps. For sure.
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Tomvd, harassment? Outrage? We’re not talking about Syrian Christians or African-Americans, you know.
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iggy, so now you believe in continuing revelation (i.e., Jeremiah, Amos, Jesus)? Can you say delusional? Sure you can.
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Tomvd, speaking of freeloading, you don’t think you’re loading for free with all of your theological opinions about Christianity even though you don’t identify with or belong to a Christian communion? Your lack of self-awareness is formidable.
And why exactly is it wrong to criticize folks in the culture wars when you believe those folks are actually trivializing Christianity — or worse, making idols out of cultural symbols? Was it wrong for MLK Jr. to invoke the OT prophets on behalf of equitable race relations? Some say it was because that wasn’t the meaning of Scripture. What you don’t get is that the so-called culture wars harm the church’s ministry. But how would you understand that since theology is only a game show.
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iggy, here are the lines:
Your lines are like your opinion, man.
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So I’m a CO from an undeclared, unofficial, unsanctioned war — which has no draft? As DGH has ably shown there was a time when Big Rome declared Americanism a heresy. Maybe that’s your war, DamTomKens.
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” God, in his providence, used non-prudent actions as the wise course to his plan. What’s to say he doesn’t use non-prudent actions today?”
Igsteramous, how is it that you’ve (presumably) walked into a church every Sunday for x years and you don’t understand the difference between yourself and a prophet? They had a special commission from God to pronounce covenantal blessings and curses, and are not role models. It has nothing to do with personality or prudence – they had special calls. Anyone imitating them doesn’t have a theological clue and is rightly considered psycho.
You wield the name “Jesus” like some do a gun, which is to say in an offensive way.
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Candy canes affixed with a religious message. Sounds like an item belonging in Hank Hill’s box-o-lame. I think I am more horrified with the parents and their bait and switch Christianity. Jesus must be good, I got a candy cane out of it.
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And what happens in Dearborn, MI (where Muslims are numerous) when little Achmed brings everyone a choclate-covered Koran? What if your kid is in public school in Utah? What standards do you want applied then.
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Rumspringa reveler, cheers. Good monikers welcome.
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IggyStop, if you want a role model think of the New Testament elders. Oh, there aren’t many narratives about elders? BINGO!
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2K = Mr. Incredible. Culture Warriors = Syndrome.
“When everyone (all of life) is super… no one (where) will be.”
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No you just didn’t.
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Sorry, I’m not on good terms with incrediboy. I’m recovering AA. Ask Muddy, we’re (butt) buddies.
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I didn’t just what? Drop the mic and walk away?
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Baby brother, chill. I’m still looking for my morning Lithium..
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iain said:
____
Back in 2000, at a Christmas party for our fledgeling church plant, a lovely evangelical woman asked me to read “The Legend of the Candy Cane” to the assembled group. As I recall, it declared that when those nasty Puritans banned Christmas, one godly candy maker made the first candy cane as a means of secretly affirming Biblical doctrine. I declined on the grounds that it was a) demonstrably historically false, since such sugar based candies were not available in the 17th century and b) a scurrilous slander against Puritans who, while they may have had issues with Christmas, would have been very happy to allow said candy maker to speak openly to his neighbors about such doctrines as the Trinity and the substitutionary atonement. She responded huffily that she didn’t care whether the story was true; she liked it. The couple never came back to our church afterwards…
_____________
I can’t detail how or when I got here, but I am now in a place where I find this heart warming.
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It’s me, not you, AA. Anons done been gratin’ on me. I found my lithium, amazing how just thinking it lowers ny heart rate. Mind over matter mumbo jumbo..
Playing popcorn here.
Popcorn: rumspringer
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And if 2Kers don’t want to stand up for their own religious rights* that’s fine, but being MIA when it comes to those of others is crap.
Tom, 2kers regularly point out how 2k is all about protecting all manner of sectarians and false religionists. It’s the neos and theos you’re warm to that have issue with letting them have a full share in the republic. How close are you really reading?
https://oldlife.org/2010/09/point-of-order-even-for-covenanters-2k-is-confessional/
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Tom, and here:
https://oldlife.org/2009/12/do-kuyperians-ever-listen-to-kuyper/
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I welcome both golfing ans non golfing homo sapiens to weigh in and help a helpless chap. I mean, I saw the movie with my kids, but the scene did not have the same effect.
I’m dense, and with a full head of hair, won’t be wearing hats anytime soon. Unless you want to golf?
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I mean, sorry guys, but I’m going personal now.
CtC clenched my jaws. They aren’t reformed. Their quitters. Nothing ontologically wrong with that. But we do we these guys say, and they backstab. The more things change?
I’m out.
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MM- Let me see if I understand. The OT myths (I use myth here as “traditional story” not “false belief”) are a mode of representation belonging to an earlier stage, a pedagogic stage of revelation, but at this point we should not be enticed by the content because that distracts from the meaning of the Confessions. With the full development of the Confessions we can discard the simple notions of the OT myths as transitory moments which find their ultimate truth in the Confessions.
Having thus moved through historical-redemptive history we have arrived at a knowledge of the universal ends. The Church’s role is to raise the level of consciousness towards those ends. Though individual human action is a means it must be intermingled with the higher notions of the Church. The Church guides the consciousness of the Elect to attain prudence and wisdom in the things of the Confession.
Likewise with the State. The actual State procedures should be in accordance with the nature of things and whatever the State deems as prudent and wise is how it should rule. The State itself should act as a guide towards wisdom and prudence. Individuals within the State should follow the lead of what the State deems prudent and wise.
Thus for the elect, we should follow two paths towards a higher level of prudence and wisdom; those things taught by and for the Church and those things deemed prudent and wise by the State.
Am I tracking here?
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Is anybody going to answer this good question?
Chortles weakly
Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:16 am
And what happens in Dearborn, MI (where Muslims are numerous) when little Achmed brings everyone a choclate-covered Koran? What if your kid is in public school in Utah? What standards do you want applied then
mark: There is no difference between being patronizing and “respecting the sectarian witness” of those who think of as parasites. When Romans 12 commands us to leave the wrath to God, does that mean we are freeloaders on God’s wrath? When Romans 13 to submit to them, does that make us freeloaders on them? Does that give us permission to become them?
If we depend on salvation apart from our works and based completely on Christ’s work outside of us, does that make us freeloaders? If we depend on grace alone in the one kingdom, why do we need to be more “prudent” than that in the other kingdom? Why would any Christian NOT have an objection to overcoming evil with evil?.
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gas, let’s simplify. You know that, though we follow Christ’s character we do not imitate all he does. He was prophet, priest & king, and his activities were consistent with those offices. We hold none of those offices, so we don’t throw over money tables, we don’t definitively declare judgment, and we don’t arrange our lives so we will be crucified. Likewise the activities of the prophets were consonant with their offices. They could declare judgment and grace with authority and they were sometimes called upon to do things that would be sheer presumption, folly, or sin if we did them.
Are we tracking?
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mark mcculley
Posted January 18, 2014 at 4:11 pm | Permalink
Is anybody going to answer this good question?
Chortles weakly
Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:16 am
And what happens in Dearborn, MI (where Muslims are numerous) when little Achmed brings everyone a choclate-covered Koran? What if your kid is in public school in Utah? What standards do you want applied then
If that’s @ me, I’m a pluralist–what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
BTW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school
Un-American, eh?
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Zrim
Posted January 18, 2014 at 10:59 am | Permalink
Tom, and here:
https://oldlife.org/2009/12/do-kuyperians-ever-listen-to-kuyper/
“What is striking for all good Kuyperians is that Abraham Kuyper himself rejected the original language of Article 36 and refused to let anyone claim he was less of a Reformed Protestant for doing so.”
Dang right. Whose Calvinism is it, anyway?
I think you’re playing into Mr. van Damme’s hands. Catholicism is plain–Catholicism to you, Christ’s Church to them—belongs to the magisterium via apostolic succession.* Councils, the pope, the cardinals who elect the pope.
____
*”Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”—Jesus Christ, c. 33 CE
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I believe we are tracking. When you say, ” the activities of the prophets were consonant with their offices” it tracks with belonging to an earlier historical stage. And, ” He was prophet, priest & king, and his activities were consistent with those offices” tracks with reaching a point in history where we have arrived at a knowledge of universal ends. Having been raised to that level of consciousness we avoid the “sheer presumption, folly, or sin” of those transitory moments for prudence and wisdom.
What about the correlation with the State or the concluding thesis?
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Tom, what’s any of this have to do with the claims of Catholicism? Your claim was that 2kers aren’t interested in protecting the religious rights of others, yet that is exactly what the theos oppose about 2k revisions of the standards. You also suggest that if 2kers aren’t particularly moved to assert their own rights it’s fine–somehow I don’t believe you, Mr. Resistance Theory.
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gas, you could add a second layer of consideration, i.e., the fact that the prophetic denunciations were largely application of the covenant of Sinai, but it should be enough to recognize the fullness of what it means to have the calling of a prophet, and that you do not have that calling. Just recognize that certain offices entail certain unique actions and authority.
The other stuff you have looks like goobledy gook. Why is this not enough? Are you holding on to the idea that it is proper for you to do whatever a prophet might have done? Cuz if you are then you can look forward to being arrested or being put in an institution.
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I’m just trying to understand your 2k thesis. If it’s merely, “we’re not prophets”, that’s pretty trivial. You seem to imply there are all sorts of implications to that but yet not willing to spell it out?
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You are the one who used the prophets as a model for behavior. I responded by asking you to consider that the prophet has an office and calling that you do not have. Anyone, 2k or not, should recognize this. And I don’t think it is trivial is you erred by using the prophets as your role model.
Having to retrace our conversation is tedious, so get to the point. It seems you are requiring a justification for things like politeness, respect and consideration.
What kind of church do you attend?
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I don’t know how to get more pointed than asking what’s your 2k thesis. Apparently it has something to do with not being prophets. I proposed a way to understand how that leads to 2k but all I get is mumbling about offices and politeness?
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Igas, you’re a clever fellow, what with discovering the outrageous ideas of being reasonable and civil with a school teacher – as well as the entire idea of “office” – are clever 2k novelties. Over and out.
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I recently read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Homespun-Gospel-Sentimentality-Contemporary-Evangelicalism/dp/0199988986
Apparently it has infected the Reformed faith as well.
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Well, that was disappointing but what do you expect from a guy with a handle like igasx? He popped over here from the Bayly blog, right? But at least we had a prophet among us.
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iggy, the book’s description:
I can’t recall how many times OL has been criticized for sentimentality.
Not.
If that is a sign of your power of discernment, those closest to you should be very afraid.
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diggy, I’m not polite, that’s my problem, so sayeth the minion.
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iggy, just one more non sequitur. They should still be afraid.
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The last week may be an all time low for inane commenters and comments. Even I am speechless. I can get this level of discourse on Yahoo.
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Matthew 22: 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
mark: Was the Lord Jesus a “freeloader” on the “common goods” because He had no coin to give to Caesar? Does the Lord Jesus not having a wife make Him a bad example for those of us who have a family and who are really human and who live in the real world with real sinners?
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Martin Luther: I will not oppose a ruler who, even though be does not tolerate the Gospel, will
smite and punish these peasants without offering to submit the case to judgement. For he is
within his rights, since the peasants are not contending any longer for the Gospel but have
become faithless, perjured, disobedient, rebellious murderers, robbers, and blasphemers,
whom even heathen rulers have the right and power to punish….
If he can punish and does not, then he is guilty of all the murder and all the evil which these fellows commit, because, by willful neglect of the divine command, he permits them to practice their wickedness, though he can prevent it, and is in duty bound to do so. Here, then, there is no time for sleeping; no place for patience or mercy. It is the time of the sword, not the day of grace.
Therefore will I punish and smite as long as my heart bears. Thou wilt judge and make things right.’
Thus it may be that one who is killed fighting on the ruler’s side may be a true martyr in the eyes of God…On the other hand, one who perishes on the peasants’ side is an eternal brand of hell…
mark: You see, the problem is anabaptist revolutions, not reformed revolutions, certainly not German princes aligned against emperor and pope. Though the earth in theory is the Lord’s, to be practical it must be kept from the parasites and given to the nobility, who even now have it in their power to make history go in the right direction, the way God would want it to….
Click to access Martin%20Luther%20-%20Against%20the%20Robbing%20and%20Murdering%20Hordes%20of%20Peasants%20(1525).pdf
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Igasx,
I don’t think the core of this issue (of the candy canes in the original post) for American Christians is as much about 2k vs. Culture Warriors, it honestly, at least for confessional Christians boils down to the 9th Commandment –
Q. 77. What is required in the ninth commandment?
A. The ninth commandment requireth the maintaining and promoting of truth between man and man, and of our own and our neighbor’s good name, especially in witness-bearing.
Q. 78. What is forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The ninth commandment forbiddeth whatsoever is prejudicial to truth, or injurious to our own or our neighbor’s good name.
It seems to me that this teacher was placed in a difficult circumstance, and made the best choice she could in a situation that might carry important legal ramifications regardless of what she does with the candy canes and their Christmas message. For it, her name has been dragged through the mud, and she has endured threats and public shaming from many professed Christians who frankly are more worried that they express moral outrage over the vagaries of the “war on Christmas” than they are about upholding this woman’s good name, who is a Christian herself. At least her pastor gets it, and defended her reputation.
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Good point Jed. I agree completely.
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iggy, that was the point of the post. A pastor knows better than Fox News and blog commenters. You folded your entire position here.
Are you sweet on Jed?
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igasx must have sobered up.
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I blame Westminster and the effect it has on hangovers.
Works for those of you who get them. Must be rough. Yo.
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diggy, i was responding to all the sentimental tropes thrown at me after I related how my son expressed his first amendment rights in high school.
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Gas, your son rocks.
Enjoy church today, if that’s your thing.
Nice to “meet” you.
Peace.
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GAS-X, favoring submission to authority over right fighting is sentimental trope? Your son may have the default backing of ‘merica but not enough props are going to Isaiah and his teacher who actually have the Bible on their side.
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Heh heh, look at how mikelmann carries on for a page of exchanges then Jed says the same thing and gets gas. Jed should be an ambassador. Maybe to North Korea since I think Ambassador Rodman is in rehab.
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Zrimsky- your line about Isaiah and his teacher almost put a tear in my eye. What I do appreciate in your tropes of submission to authority is your honest admission of your hatred of ‘America’s constrained vision of authority for an autonomous unconstrained vision.
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GAS-X, do you also accuse Peter of sentimental trope when he instructs subjects to honor not only the gentle but also the unjust authority (for it is a gracious thing in the sight of God)? But how rich for the stander-upper for candy canes to accuse of sentimentality (psst, God didn’t choose candy but Word and sacrament to convey the gospel).
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Z- poor Isaiah-age 6- is being judged for his theology? Regardless- Isaiah’s freedom to expresses his religiosity in the secular realm is protected by authority.
p.s. Peter didn’t use a trope
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Lawsuits and controversy in general tend to change policies and practices. Look for emails from the schools next December that announce the discontinuation of gift exchanges.
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Neither did he press his rights to hand out redeemed candy.
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Jed should be an ambassador. Maybe to North Korea since I think Ambassador Rodman is in rehab.
Riiight, let’s appoint the bipolar guy as ambassador to a rogue nuclear state, we’d be in better hands with Rodman on full tilt with a bar full of his own vodka. I might start WW3 just out of sheer boredom, or after a 3-day bender of Cohen movies, Korean BBQ, some good laughs, and kimchi with Kim Jong Un. Trust me, this only ends badly – especially if the Dodgers push over $300 mil in payroll.
Mudsworthy, do we need to start subjecting drug tests to Old Life commenters? Sheesh.
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Jed, first rule of golf, never blame yourself. So I dig when one blames ones psyche. Our bi polars can work for us. Or not. I’m conflicted…
Word, bro. Keep keeping it real in the hood yo. Word..
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Jed, it’s COEN — no h.
Seeeees.
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“Jed, it’s COEN — no h.”
Bill Murray learned that the hard way
http://abcnews.go.com/US/social-climber-bill-murray-made-garfield-mistake-walking/story?id=21589777
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Jason Stellman is among usas we can be among them as well. Keep your children close.
I finally get you all, out here, in blogdom.
Popcorn time here. Yo. Is this when confetti should fall all around me? Queue the clown song?
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Another hint for Murray should come from they told Terry Gross recently about working with cats:
http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/251638952/the-coen-bros-on-writing-lebowski-and-literally-herding-cats
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Darrell,
Duly noted, I will make sure that I check my spelling on all names – last, first, middle. The OL spelling bee trophy is something I have only dreamed about.
— Judd
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But there is only one orange, marmalade tabby cat named Maverick that I know of, and he was given that wonderful name before some Alaskan governor went and screwed that up. A good name is hard to come by..
OLTS WEB BOT 9000: Alert - Sameless Self Promoting Feline Owner, Propping Up His Prized Creature. He Will Be Punished Via Shock Through Cell Phone. Rendered Unconcious for 24 Hours. Success. End Transmision. Self Destructing In 3..2..1.LikeLike
Ged Asshall, good.
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Speaking of the Coen’s, has anyone seen “Inside Llewyn Davis” yet?
It’s at the Des Moines Art House but I haven’t made it there.
I like the casting of Adam Driver. He steals the show in “Girls”.
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Jed, it’s just that you flubbed one of the Important Names. And when we have and Old Life conference, make sure you pronounce “jay gressum maychun.”
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Erik, I saw it. I’m still trying to figure it out. But if you love cats. . .
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D. G. Hart
Posted January 18, 2014 at 8:14 am | Permalink
Tomvd, speaking of freeloading, you don’t think you’re loading for free with all of your theological opinions about Christianity even though you don’t identify with or belong to a Christian communion? Your lack of self-awareness is formidable.
And why exactly is it wrong to criticize folks in the culture wars when you believe those folks are actually trivializing Christianity — or worse, making idols out of cultural symbols? Was it wrong for MLK Jr. to invoke the OT prophets on behalf of equitable race relations? Some say it was because that wasn’t the meaning of Scripture. What you don’t get is that the so-called culture wars harm the church’s ministry. But how would you understand that since theology is only a game show.
Your Martin Luther King example refuted your own argument. When you get in a hole, stop digging.
As for “making idols,” it’s a stretch–if not a perversion–to call the reverence for unborn life and for the very definition of marriage given by Jesus himself* “making idols.”
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Zrim
Posted January 18, 2014 at 6:35 pm | Permalink
Tom, what’s any of this have to do with the claims of Catholicism? Your claim was that 2kers aren’t interested in protecting the religious rights of others, yet that is exactly what the theos oppose about 2k revisions of the standards. You also suggest that if 2kers aren’t particularly moved to assert their own rights it’s fine–somehow I don’t believe you, Mr. Resistance Theory.
Of course it’s fine to offer the other cheek instead of fight. But when it comes to a duty to protect other people, well, Jesus didn’t say “And if a man rape your daughter, offer him your wife as well.”
Do you believe that’s what he meant?
As for the American revision of the WCF in 1788, that’s for you to sort out I suppose. But if the right to religious freedom is not defended–and better we do it for each other rather than merely ourselves–then it’s meaningless, and you could have saved the ink.
Furthermore, the American revision went on to affirm the principle of religious freedom and asserted that the civil magistrate had a duty to protect that liberty, even including the freedom of infidels: “It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretense of religion or of infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury.”—DGH
As for the Catholic bit, Catholics don’t have the same theological autonomy that Kuyper claimed [although there is leeway given on some subjects, where the nonnormative is not necessarily heretical].
You wrote
“What is striking for all good Kuyperians is that Abraham Kuyper himself rejected the original language of Article 36 and refused to let anyone claim he was less of a Reformed Protestant for doing so.”
To which I replied
Dang right. Whose Calvinism is it, anyway?
I think you’re playing into Mr. van Damme’s hands. Catholicism is plain–Catholicism to you, Christ’s Church to them—belongs to the magisterium via apostolic succession.* Councils, the pope, the cardinals who elect the pope.
____
*”Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”—Jesus Christ, c. 33 CE
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¿Whose Calvinism?
Shock therapy seems to have failed. Yo.
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Tom, you’re simply repeating yourself and glossing over the point about the revisions (which had everything to do with protecting the religious liberties of others). But to not resist a persecutor is not the same as handing wives over to rapists. You’re sounding like the early antagonists who portrayed communion to be a form of cannibalism. Come on. 2kers want pastors to forgive criminals but sheriffs to lock them up. We’re not the Anabaptists who want judges to suspend punishments on men who mow down their kids’ classrooms.
You also said, As for “making idols,” it’s a stretch–if not a perversion–to call the reverence for unborn life and for the very definition of marriage given by Jesus himself* “making idols.”
On the contrary. In Luke 14 (and elsewhere) we are told to hate not only our families but also our very lives should they come between us and him—the cost of being a disciple. IOW, the highest provisional goods of life and family can indeed become idols. Jesus may have defined marriage but he’s going to dissolve it in the hereafter, and the only way to eternal life is to lose temporal life, all of which has a way of dialing down the brouhaha. Sure, life and marriage are worth preserving, but they fade away in the long run. It’s called putting temporal life in perspective of eternal life.
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D.G. – Erik, I saw it. I’m still trying to figure it out. But if you love cats. . .
Erik – So it’s from the “A Serious Man” wing of Coen as opposed to the “Fargo” wing. Darn.
Kind of like Paul Thomas Anderson has the “Hard Eight/Boogie Nights/Magnolia” wing and the “Everything After Those” wing.
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Zrim
Posted January 20, 2014 at 4:51 pm | Permalink
Tom, you’re simply repeating yourself and glossing over the point about the revisions (which had everything to do with protecting the religious liberties of others). But to not resist a persecutor is not the same as handing wives over to rapists. You’re sounding like the early antagonists who portrayed communion to be a form of cannibalism. Come on. 2kers want pastors to forgive criminals but sheriffs to lock them up. We’re not the Anabaptists who want judges to suspend punishments on men who mow down their kids’ classrooms.
You also said, As for “making idols,” it’s a stretch–if not a perversion–to call the reverence for unborn life and for the very definition of marriage given by Jesus himself* “making idols.”
On the contrary. In Luke 14 (and elsewhere) we are told to hate not only our families but also our very lives should they come between us and him—the cost of being a disciple. IOW, the highest provisional goods of life and family can indeed become idols. Jesus may have defined marriage but he’s going to dissolve it in the hereafter, and the only way to eternal life is to lose temporal life, all of which has a way of dialing down the brouhaha. Sure, life and marriage are worth preserving, but they fade away in the long run. It’s called putting temporal life in perspective of eternal life.
Then why did Jesus even bother talking about marriage? And do you think he was indifferent to murdering the unborn? Hiding behind certain verses and ignoring others is an injustice to the Bible.
As for “making idols,” it’s a stretch–if not a perversion–to call the reverence for unborn life and for the very definition of marriage given by Jesus himself* “making idols.”
If you’re indifferent to all the affairs of this world, and are convinced you’re elected to the next, then what’s the purpose of God even putting you here in the first place?
Biblical nihilism.
I’m OK with anyone’s theology if it’s for themselves. If a man rapes your daughter, and you think God wants you to offer him your wife as well, well then that’s your faith. But for the rest of us defending our homes and families, please have the pluralistic decency to stay the hell out of the way.
You might be wrong about what Mighty Jehovah wants. Mighty wrong.
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Tom, take a breath (again). But I suppose one man’s perspective is another’s “hiding, ignoring, indifference, and nihilism.” Tim Bayly and Gilbert Tennent on line two for you.
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Tom,
I don’t think that Zrim would necessarily disagree with me here, if I might add something to your recent comment. How Zrim understands his 2k convictions in practice, or more specifically his 2k ethic is a) informed by 2k thought by Hart, Van Drunen, Horton, et. al. However, Zrim sees no place for resistance to authority up to the point where the church is able to operate its calling without state interference – meaning he would defy an order to not congregate on the Lord’s Day, or some related scenario. Zrim and I do not see eye to eye here, but I think this is genuinely informed by how he reads Scripture. I am not sure that all of us who hold to 2k in some form or another would agree with his ethic.
For example, the fact that much of contemporary Reformed 2k teaching relies on a Reformed understanding of Natural Law, which I would call a modified Thomistic view (not everything Thomistic equates to contemporary 2k teaching), as passed down through various proponents of Reformed Resistance Theory. The fact of the matter is the ethical questions over whether to resist the magistrate or not, or to what degree are very complex, even for those of us who agree broadly with the 2k paradigm (Bryan are you reading?). If you read Van Drunen, for example, you would see a NL defense of the pro-life position, and a call for social engagement on the issue.
All this to say, I do believe that there are qualified instances where the Christian can conscientiously resist the Magistrate. Obviously such instances are not desirable, but they do exist, inasmuch as the individual conscience can bear it before God. I will qualify this by also stating that we American Christians are probably, by virtue of cultural conditioning, far too quick to jump to resistance without first exhausting lawful options of dissent. But, so far as such options are exhausted, I think that the Christian must be able to reason through a hierarchy of ethical principles, wherein he seeks to uphold the highest order of ethical values – namely the love of God and neighbor – in highly complex, often confusing ethical dilemmas.
I think that 2k also understands that as time bound, culturally bound creatures, we might not always get these issues right, which is why we are more hesitant to come down so hard on the perceived failures of Christians in the past. It is difficult to know how future generations will regard such decisions, and in the absence of us actually being faced with such dilemmas, many of these discussions boil down to mere speculation, nothing else.
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MikeyMahan,
Jed, it’s just that you flubbed one of the Important Names. And when we have and Old Life conference, make sure you pronounce “jay gressum maychun.”
I get it, I just made hamburger of an OL scared cow, but damn if my Kohenburger didn’t taste good, especially at 1 AM last night when I typed the comment. Some of us still have to work the occasional night shift… it’s all this ass-haole is saying. If I slept on my otherwise earth-shattering comment, I might have got the Coen’s right, but might have missed the opportunity to nuke LA over a $300mil payroll, even if it was in my imagination. Doesn’t Chavez Crater have a better ring to it than Chavez Ravine? Of course I might just be bitter seeing Adrian Gonzalez in Dodger blue.
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Zrim
Posted January 20, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink
Tom, take a breath (again). But I suppose one man’s perspective is another’s “hiding, ignoring, indifference, and nihilism.” Tim Bayly and Gilbert Tennent on line two for you.
Answering anything and everything with Luke 14:26* [or any isolated passage] is disingenuous. The argument stands unrefudiated.
____________
*“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”
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Erik, I’d say its more from the Barton Fink, True Grit side of the Coen’s spectrum. Which is still pretty good. Noah Millman — who’s a smart guy — thinks its one of the best picture of the year.
Did I say it has a cat?
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Jed @5:55
Well said.
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Jed Paschall
Posted January 20, 2014 at 5:55 pm | Permalink
Tom,
I don’t think that Zrim would necessarily disagree with me here, if I might add something to your recent comment. How Zrim understands his 2k convictions in practice, or more specifically his 2k ethic is a) informed by 2k thought by Hart, Van Drunen, Horton, et. al. However, Zrim sees no place for resistance to authority up to the point where the church is able to operate its calling without state interference – meaning he would defy an order to not congregate on the Lord’s Day, or some related scenario. Zrim and I do not see eye to eye here, but I think this is genuinely informed by how he reads Scripture. I am not sure that all of us who hold to 2k in some form or another would agree with his ethic.
For example, the fact that much of contemporary Reformed 2k teaching relies on a Reformed understanding of Natural Law, which I would call a modified Thomistic view (not everything Thomistic equates to contemporary 2k teaching), as passed down through various proponents of Reformed Resistance Theory. The fact of the matter is the ethical questions over whether to resist the magistrate or not, or to what degree are very complex, even for those of us who agree broadly with the 2k paradigm (Bryan are you reading?). If you read Van Drunen, for example, you would see a NL defense of the pro-life position, and a call for social engagement on the issue.
All this to say, I do believe that there are qualified instances where the Christian can conscientiously resist the Magistrate. Obviously such instances are not desirable, but they do exist, inasmuch as the individual conscience can bear it before God. I will qualify this by also stating that we American Christians are probably, by virtue of cultural conditioning, far too quick to jump to resistance without first exhausting lawful options of dissent. But, so far as such options are exhausted, I think that the Christian must be able to reason through a hierarchy of ethical principles, wherein he seeks to uphold the highest order of ethical values – namely the love of God and neighbor – in highly complex, often confusing ethical dilemmas.
I think that 2k also understands that as time bound, culturally bound creatures, we might not always get these issues right, which is why we are more hesitant to come down so hard on the perceived failures of Christians in the past. It is difficult to know how future generations will regard such decisions, and in the absence of us actually being faced with such dilemmas, many of these discussions boil down to mere speculation, nothing else.
Thx for the considered reply, Jed.
However, pointing behind the vanDrunen curtain will not do. You’re talking about yet another version of Calvinism and a recent one, and it’s a little much to ask outsiders to keep up with your zigs and zags*. [That you’ve improved on Aquinas–or Reformed resistance theory–is quite a claim.]
Further, “resistance to the magistrate” is way too abstracted here. Not Palin, not the Baylys or any other “neo-Calvinist” Kuyperians [whatever you call anti-2kers] is shooting abortionists or stoning gays. But when you 2Kers can’t even stand up against Obama for the Little Sisters of the Poor, well, what will you stand up for?
The custom around here is to bag on the GOP while remaining silent about the Dems’ assault on our country’s traditional Biblical values**. Well, lemme submit this–the GOP are our magistrates too! And you can elect more of them!. There is no Romans 13 problem here. We just don’t have to roll over to the Obamaite agenda.
Neither is an overtly political endorsement of pro-life or traditional marriage candidates necessary. All the Church–your church, the Catlcks, the EOs, whathaveyou–needs to do is inform the conscience of their congregation. My objection is to [Pontius] Pilatism, washing our hands of this blood of this world. That’s not Biblical.
___________
*The 1788 American revision of the WCF, for instance, section 20 iirc. First you’re political, then you’re not.
**Now, if you believe the left-liberal agenda is what the Bible counsels, fine. I’m not debating conscience.
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” If I slept on my otherwise earth-shattering comment, I might have got the Coen’s right, but might have missed the opportunity to nuke LA over a $300mil payroll, even if it was in my imagination. Doesn’t Chavez Crater have a better ring to it than Chavez Ravine? Of course I might just be bitter seeing Adrian Gonzalez in Dodger blue.”
OK,Jed,you were right. Don’t apply for the Ambassador to North Korea gig. Rodman’s head might be in a better place.
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Jed, agreed. One caveat for civil resistance though: leash laws.
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PS. Jed, thanks for taking the Red Sox’ albatrosses. We wouldn’t have won the 2013 World Series without Magic’s help.
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Tom, nobody is making Luke 14 say anything and everything, but not engaging it is weak. But the same Lord who commands hatred of life and kin also commands their love and honor (as in the fifth and sixth commandments). 2k tries to account for that kind of dual citizenship of heaven and earth, not hide and ignore.
As to your constant complaint that OL bags only on the right:
https://oldlife.org/2010/05/why-evangelicals-arent-conservative/
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On Noah Millman being smart:
But what I would say in response is that virtually nobody has a “coherent” worldview. I’m pretty sure I don’t. And it’s only a certain sort of personality that feels a psychic need for a worldview characterized by coherence. I might even go further and say that some religions are more prone to seek that particular grail than others. I’d certainly rank Catholicism far higher on the “seeks coherence” scale than, say, Judaism, or the LDS Church, to say nothing of faith traditions like Hinduism that don’t even have a clear mechanism for defining the boundaries of inclusion and exclusion, and that hence by definition cannot provide that kind of coherence…I myself don’t like crowing self-righteousness of any variety, religious or atheistic. But I’m also skeptical of coherent world-views.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/millman/another-round-on-atheism-with-ross-douthat/
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Tom – The custom around here is to bag on the GOP while remaining silent about the Dems’ assault on our country’s traditional Biblical values**. Well, lemme submit this–the GOP are our magistrates too! And you can elect more of them!. There is no Romans 13 problem here. We just don’t have to roll over to the Obamaite agenda.
Erik – Have you considered the possibility that national politics is for the most part a fool’s game and is for show? The two parties identify an issue, line up on each side of it, and raise a ton of money from their backers’ outrage. Great scam if you’re the one on the receiving end of the money and power.
When you’re one of 300 million people good luck having an impact on national politics.
Plus, we’re a blip on the radar compared to your Catholic friends. They split their vote. If you can influence 1/100th of them you’ll have a greater impact than if you impact all of us. Most of us already vote Republican anyway.
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Brief Commercial Break:
I’m working on a real estate licensing course and just ran across this nugget of wisdom:
Contract Forms
Because so many real estate transactions are similar in nature, preprinted forms are available for most kinds of contracts. The use of preprinted forms presents three problems:
1. what to write in the blanks,
Indeed…
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Zrim
Posted January 20, 2014 at 9:00 pm | Permalink
Tom, nobody is making Luke 14 say anything and everything, but not engaging it is weak. But the same Lord who commands hatred of life and kin also commands their love and honor (as in the fifth and sixth commandments). 2k tries to account for that kind of dual citizenship of heaven and earth, not hide and ignore.
As to your constant complaint that OL bags only on the right:
https://oldlife.org/2010/05/why-evangelicals-arent-conservative/
You had to dig back to 2010, and in fact, it does bag on the right. But I’m glad you brought it up
shows the error. The GOP are our magistrates too! And we can elect more of them. It’s always been the hole in Darryl’s 2k rap and he’s still never been able to answer it.
As for Luke 14, you’re asking it to do a lot more heavy lifting than it was designed for. Asking any isolated verse to do that much heavy lifting is in my opinion an error, be it the Bible or any historical writing.
The meaning seems pretty obvious, in harmony with “And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”
Hell, if you can pluck your own eye out, you can certainly tell your family to bug off. That one’s easy. As even you allow per “Honor thy father and mother,” Luke 14 isn’t really about your family.
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Erik Charter
Posted January 20, 2014 at 9:07 pm | Permalink
Tom – The custom around here is to bag on the GOP while remaining silent about the Dems’ assault on our country’s traditional Biblical values**. Well, lemme submit this–the GOP are our magistrates too! And you can elect more of them!. There is no Romans 13 problem here. We just don’t have to roll over to the Obamaite agenda.
Erik – Have you considered the possibility that national politics is for the most part a fool’s game and is for show? The two parties identify an issue, line up on each side of it, and raise a ton of money from their backers’ outrage. Great scam if you’re the one on the receiving end of the money and power.
When you’re one of 300 million people good luck having an impact on national politics.
Plus, we’re a blip on the radar compared to your Catholic friends. They split their vote. If you can influence 1/100th of them you’ll have a greater impact than if you impact all of us. Most of us already vote Republican anyway.
And the man the Samaritan helped was just a blip too. Fortunately for the priest and the Levite who passed him by, they didn’t get his blood on his hands and offend God by becoming unclean. I mean do you guys actually read the Bible? Sometimes I wonder.
And you didn’t really address my point that in a democracy, Romans 13 doesn’t oblige us to roll over to “the powers that be.” WE are the “powers that be.”*
As for the Catholics, perhaps you should talk to them too. The thing is, my argument is against Pilatism, washing the blood of the world off our hands, not voting this way or that. I don’t know what to say to a Jim Wallis except his Barney the Christosaurism seems kind of expedient so as not to piss off his lefty friends. Lukewarm water.
_______
*BTW, that was actually the Calvinist Resistance theory justification for the American revolution–parliament was not their legitimate ruler, the Continental Congress was their duly empowered magistrate. For the record.
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Tom – And the man the Samaritan helped was just a blip too.
Erik – You make my point for me. Better to use my time and money to actually help a real person where I live than to send my money to some politician in Washington who I think is going to solve America’s problems.
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The banter here is thought provoking and (sometimes) funny.
But, since I have affinity to root for underdogs…I root for you, TVD. You have raised substantive and important points on the whole 2K thing. Keep it up!
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Petros
Posted January 20, 2014 at 9:41 pm | Permalink
The banter here is thought provoking and (sometimes) funny.
But, since I have affinity to root for underdogs…I root for you, TVD. You have raised substantive and important points on the whole 2K thing. Keep it up!
Merci, P. You got it. Some folks hereabouts flatter themselves that I’m writing to/for THEM. As if they’ll change their minds. As if I need the abuse!
The discussions are “colloquies,” to be read by anyone who can bear them, to strengthen their convictions, or their doubts. Test all things, hold fast what is good. Especially theologizing!
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Erik Charter
Posted January 20, 2014 at 9:37 pm | Permalink
Tom – And the man the Samaritan helped was just a blip too.
Erik – You make my point for me. Better to use my time and money to actually help a real person where I live than to send my money to some politician in Washington who I think is going to solve America’s problems.
Making it either/or is a false choice. Some things are too big for one man. If you of the 2K persuasion have dealt with the German church and what it did/should have done in opposing the rise of Hitler, we need to know. I believe I’ve asked you before but don’t recall ever receiving a reply.
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tomvd, do you understand how lame it is to call attention to your own high five? You are almost as clueless as Bryan Hal Cross.
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MM,
PS. Jed, thanks for taking the Red Sox’ albatrosses. We wouldn’t have won the 2013 World Series without Magic’s help.
Don’t thank me, I am a lifelong Padres fan, the Dodgers’ insistence on becoming the Yankees of the west has not been good for the NL West. It’s a shame, they were such a classy organization under the O’Malley’s. But, with a strong club in the Giants, and improved Diamondbacks and Padres teams, I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that their bloated payroll will lead to a division title.
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Tom, once again, all spoken like a real cultural Protestant. No wonder you have so much against the confessionally Protestant OL. Oh, and there’s the Hitler card, which is my cue. 2kers have as much chance with that one as Reformed do with the infallibility card.
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Tom,
However, pointing behind the vanDrunen curtain will not do. You’re talking about yet another version of Calvinism and a recent one, and it’s a little much to ask outsiders to keep up with your zigs and zags*. [That you’ve improved on Aquinas–or Reformed resistance theory–is quite a claim.]
All I see here is an assertion but not much by way of explanation – can you expand on why you think this is the case? I think a close reading of Van Drunen in NL2K, or even the historical works of Muller, it’s not much of a stretch to see how 2k scholarship (as distinct from blogging) has demonstrated a strong link between the Natural Law developments in Reformed Scholasticism and contemporary 2k Christ/culture constructs. Of course there are deviations due to our own cultural and historical situations, for example there wasn’t a separation between church and state in the time of the magisterial Reformation – even though the trajectory of NL theory would lead to that development in the 18th century.
As to your other points, it seems to me that you are conflating 2k as an ethical framework with a particular political agenda, or lack thereof on the part of some 2kers. I don’t think that you are going to hear any 2ker demand that 2k entails any particular political allegiance, since individuals are at liberty to be politically involved (or not) as their own conscience allows, within the framework of NL and the areas where Scripture speaks to our civic duties. I think you will constantly be disappointed with 2k if you want it to be an instrument of conservative politics, or resistance to the excesses of the political left.
With that said, you are also making huge assumptions here regarding the political involvements of some of the 2k proponents here. I think the Obama presidency, like the Bush one before it, has been a hot mess. The executive overreach of Obama has been nothing less than disturbing to me, and maybe others here. But, what does meaningful resistance look like? To me it is not of much use at all to lend my efforts to an already caustic, and ultimately destructive culture-war. Where I show dissent is at the ballot box, where I seek to put the most competent candidates in office – as a registered Libertarian, I don’t have allegiance to Republican or Democrat, and have voted for individuals from both parties. In the upcoming presidential elections, I will support the candidates who I think can repair some of the real damage done to our Constitutional liberties, and can give attention to some of the glaring economic problems on the home-front.
At the end of the day however, I don’t put much stock in political solutions. Some genuinely better the world for a time, and many others fail to deliver. To me, the far more important issue is the spiritual mission of the church – since I believe that the only truly lasting solutions to the human condition come through God’s work in and through his people. The present age is a passing one, and the age to come is where the real action is, and it transcends the politics of our time. This doesn’t mean I am politically disengaged, it just means I try not to make more of it than it is, since I believe God is sovereignly working his will in the world regardless of who he appoints as our temporal rulers.
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Tom,
Hitler? Really? That’s the best you can do?
Tell me about the makeup of Hitler’s support when he was democratically elected. What do you know about it?
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Tom,
What is your opinion of the Deacon in the Bayly’s church who went on a rampage at an abortion clinic with an axe?
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Tom,
And would a rock-ribbed fiscally & socially conservative guy like you have been in favor of the harsh treatment that Germany received at the hands of the victors after WWI or not?
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Tom’s demands on my time and energy (“why didn’t you do anything about x?”) have me feeling like Robert Stack:
Is there no place in the world for someone who just wants to mind their own business and muddle through life?
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I Thessalonians 4: 11 and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, 12 so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.
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But there’s a time for doing and for not doing. Not doing what is not commanded depends on not turning the word “covenant” into “an administration of the one covenant”.
Exodus 32: 26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, “Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me.” And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. 27 And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.’” 28 And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And that day about three thousand men of the people fell. 29 And Moses said, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, so that the Lord will bestow a blessing upon you this day.”
The seventh day being administrative and accidental, but sabbath in every nation being the essential timeless “moral law” of “the one covenant”….
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This is precisely why the public school system is no place to send your children. As for the media, they are right behind politicians in believability and accuracy!
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