What If We Are In Communion with Celebrity Pastors?

Published on by D. G. Hart

Carl Trueman takes stock of the celebrity pastor phenomenon and calls on the revived Presbyterians to spend some of their leadership capital (is Tim Keller paying attention?):

But here is the rub: If there are people out there who still believe that there is such a thing as reformed evangelicalism as a trans-denominational movement, if they believe that this movement will play a key role in the future of the church, and if they believe that they are important leaders in this movement, then they need to speak directly, clearly, and firmly to precisely these issues. You cannot be a leader without leading publicly on the major issues and major personalities of the day who impact your movement and your chosen constituency. It is not enough to say ‘That person is no longer one of us’ when you helped to create a culture in which accountability is not transparent and where your public silence encouraged the big names to think they could do what they wanted and not be held publicly to account. That is where today’s problems started.

That accountability question has always been the Achilles’ Heel of the evangelical parachurch movement. Now that there are huge sums of money involved, that question is far more pressing and yet far more complicated than ever before. We who are associated with the so-called reformed evangelical movement, whether because we want to be or because others just make the connection, now look as corrupt and worldly as the despicable televangelists of a previous generation.

I’ll see Carl’s rub and raise him one. The problem is not one simply for the heavy artillery in the Gospel Coalition. This is also a Presbyterian and Reformed problem. The reason is that some Presbyterian ministers are celebrity pastors and these celebrities are accountable (supposedly) to the assemblies of their communions. So what are officers in the PCA, for instance, to do with someone like Tim Keller who needs, as Trueman argues, to speak directly and precisely to the issues involved in the recent controversies surrounding Mark Driscoll and others? But this is not merely a PCA problem. It is also one for folks like Carl and me, who are in the OPC and are in fellowship with Keller and the PCA, or for men like Scott Clark and Mike Horton, who are in the URC and in fellowship with Keller and the PCA.

I don’t know what the answer is, even though I have tried to point out the dilemmas posed by a prominent PCA pastor’s poor ecclesiology. But if connectionalism is one of the aspects of Presbyterian church government, then all of us, celebrity or not, are connected to the problem of celebrity pastors.

61 thoughts on “What If We Are In Communion with Celebrity Pastors?”

  1. That accountability question has always been the Achilles’ Heel of the evangelical parachurch movement. Now that there are huge sums of money involved, that question is far more pressing and yet far more complicated than ever before.

    At the risk of sounding glib, we rest in Christ and his completed work, and press on unafraid of what glory awaits us who do so.

    The questions raised here are good to ask, yep. Thx

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  2. This argument goes back to at least the First Great Awakening. When Gilbert Tennent is really enthused about the visiting George Whitefield and other ministers in his Presbytery are less excited, what are they to do?

    Fame is a runaway train and there is little anyone else can do about it once it gets rolling down the track at full speed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Tennent

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  3. If the masses are really excited about you (as evidenced by the amount of money you are making from your book sales) and no one in your inner circle will question you, why in the world would you listen to other people in your Presbytery or denomination? They’re just jealous of your success, after all.

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  4. DGH: “I don’t know what the answer is, even though I have tried to point out the dilemmas posed by a prominent PCA pastor’s poor ecclesiology. But if connectionalism is one of the aspects of Presbyterian church government, then all of us, celebrity or not, are connected to the problem of celebrity pastors.”

    It’s hopeless, the lawyers are in charge. A classmate of mine landed a now prominent publisher as a client 20 or so years ago. Then, it was just one of his several media clients Now, he pretty much devotes full time to this client, ably assisted by a boat load of eager beaver associates. To his client “celebrity pastors” are simply properties, and they surely wouldn’t let any pipsqueak denomination interfere with their ownership rights.

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  5. Usually the way these things end up is the charismatic leader’s downfall is poor financial decisions (Jerry Falwell, Robert Schuller, Oral Roberts) or poor sexual decisions (Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart). There are a few exceptions (R.C. Sproul & Billy Graham come to mind), but then the question becomes, what is their legacy? With Sproul, his son appears to be going to the fringes of Reformed theology. With Graham, his daughter seems to be the most talented heir, although Franklin has done an admirable job with humanitarianism.

    The best Presbyterian & Reformed ministers are the ones who either labor in obscurity by choice or who conduct their writing and scholarly work with little fanfare — Michael Horton comes to mind. These guys show up at Presbytery/Classis, do the scutwork of ministry, and God uses that to build the church.

    Part of the problem with partnering with non-Reformed/Presbyterian ministers is, what mechanism even exists to correct them if they go astray? Who is over Marc Driscoll? Anyone who would attempt to correct him from within his church would be labeled a Judas or a usurper. Do P&R people consider these potential problems when they enter into the “partnership”?

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  6. Celebrity culture? What celebrity culture? http://www.challies.com/resources/john-piper-the-infographic And doesn’t each new story about Pastor Mark feel like sand running through the hour glass as Dorothy, I mean Pastor Mark runs out of time?

    Celebrity culture is essentially hero culture, and hero culture involves an error in both human nature and spirituality. Yeah, I suppose it would take at least an essay to speak to that, but it’s as if certain men are invulnerable to the daily ups and downs of other men and fly above the clouds while we can only look up and wonder what it’s like. And if you throw in the idea that the church primarily moves forward through famous men, you start building up a mythology of the man, you hide his faults, you surround him with fawning yes men and you diligently practice denial, all of which set ups dangerous and potentially scandalous situations.

    Whose sermon was most important this week, your pastor’s or that famous online guy? If it’s the latter, you’re in the grip of celebrity culture.

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  7. “It’s hopeless, the lawyers are in charge. A classmate of mine landed a now prominent publisher as a client 20 or so years ago. Then, it was just one of his several media clients Now, he pretty much devotes full time to this client, ably assisted by a boat load of eager beaver associates. To his client “celebrity pastors” are simply properties, and they surely wouldn’t let any pipsqueak denomination interfere with their ownership rights.”

    Always, it’s “shoot the lawyers.” But lawyers are just errand boys – grocery clerks – who do as they are told. It’s called agency, and I’ve yet to hear a baseball player complain that Scott Boras got him too much money.

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  8. Always, it’s “shoot the lawyers.” But lawyers are just errand boys – grocery clerks – who do as they are told. It’s called agency

    Publicans indeed are laborers in society, just like the rest.

    Meh. To have a job these days, and one that pays, has it’s perks. I say, let others talk. As for us, we keep calm, and combox on..

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  9. “Always, it’s “shoot the lawyers.” But lawyers are just errand boys – grocery clerks – who do as they are told. It’s called agency, and I’ve yet to hear a baseball player complain that Scott Boras got him too much money.”

    My friend doesn’t represent the pastors, he represents, in your analogy, a team owner. Their profits are multiples of what they pay the talent, who are typically locked into multi-year, multi book deals.

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  11. What’s amazing to me is that the LCMS and WELS denominations dwarf most of our NAPARC denominations and yet don’t seem to create celebrity pastors. What’s their secret?

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  12. Man, I thought I was going to make a relevant comment on a non-Lutheran discussion, then Joel speaks up.

    We have “celebrity” pastors in the confessional side (can’t speak for the “missional” folks). Usually they are known because of a blog or they are exceptional guests on Issues, Etc. Sometimes they speak at conferences (synod-sponsored or just in a church). But define “celebrity.” I mean, who in the broad American culture knows any of our guys? Not even Veith (and he’s not a pastor).

    The general comment I was going to make was it’s on the parishioners/congregants to be content in their vocation. And that means under the pastor God has given them. Some of our celebrity pastors are better orators, and dare I say even preachers, than my own pastor, but he’s my pastor. He preaches the Gospel faithfully and I am sinning to start wishing he were better at this, that or the other, like so-and-so. It’s like wishing for better parents or a better spouse.

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  13. Maybe your denomination(s) should disassociate with all others/those which cause a problem. After all, there’s presumably a reason why the OPC exists and and your in it and not, for example, the PCA. It can be hard enough maintaining discipline in one’s own denomination, why expose yourselves to the errors in those in which you have no authority?

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  14. Joel/Katy,

    Lutheranism, being more sacramental and less word based, does not lend itself to celebrity pastors. The sacrament is at the center of Lutheran worship, not the pastor and his (perhaps novel) exegesis of Scripture.

    That and the fact that Lutherans tend to be more dignified and highbrow than other Protestants, which leaves them less susceptible to the cult of celebrity.

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  15. One of the fastest growing churches in Central Iowa is a relatively conservative ELCA church, Lutheran Church of Hope. What’s interesting is that their growth does not seem to revolve around a celebrity pastor. Mike Householder, basically their founder, keeps a low profile. You can barely even find his name on their website.

    http://www.hopewdm.org/

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  16. We also need to shorten up the time frame it takes to make these calls. Marky Mark should take about 15 minutes, if that, before you light the fuse. There’s no virtue in suffering needlessly, and we owe it to our less jaded brothers to spare them wasted years.

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  17. Erik, I don’t know how this fits into your conservative/liberal evaluation, but have you ever seen liturgical painting?
    ——–
    William _____, a gifted artist who genuinely and passionately loves the Lord. William, along with his wonderful family, have been active participants in the life and ministry at Lutheran Church of Hope in West Des Moines for well over a decade. During that time, I have seen William’s faith grow tremendously, starting with the opening of his heart to God’s unconditional and inspiring grace, poured out for us through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Responding to this life-changing grace, William has found alignment between the gifts God has blessed him with, and the call of God on his heart.
    More specifically, William has developed a beautiful ministry in which he allows the Holy Spirit to lead him in prayer and painting during worship, as an expression of his faith. The visual impact of William’s work, which develops throughout the service and follows the theme of what is being proclaimed, adds a depth and breadth to the experience of God for so many, ultimately leading them to a more intimate experience of God during worship.

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  18. I don’t see that OPC folk are connected to celebrity pastors except through NAPARC. As a PCAer I’m pretty hacked off that Lig, Tim, and a host of lesser lights have all but effected our merger with the acronyms.

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  23. MM,

    “call of God on his heart.”
    “allows the Holy Spirit to lead him in prayer and painting during worship, as an expression of his faith.” “adds a depth and breadth to the experience of God”
    “more intimate experience of God”

    [facepalm]

    Not the Book of Concord, that

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  24. We could stop going to all the conferences. They appear to be the circuits of the celebrities that come together in promotional units, with resources and name-power to promote a school, or a publishing company, or whatever. For example, rock bands play in bars to sell beer for their host, by bringing a bunch of fans together to buy stuff. Conference speakers speak in conferences to sell stuff for their host too. That intentions are all good, is granted.

    The conferences are as much (or more) about the speakers as it is about the cause for which they have gathered. I think of the Reformed community’s high-profile “leaders” as relevant to Christians who are looking for religious fascism. By religious fascism, I simply mean a theological/cultural ideology that becomes driven by cult of personality rather than cult of document.

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  27. I think this has it all: celebrity, GC-ish alliance, and a cruise. Zrim, there’s still time to sign up. Overcome the World by a celebrity cruise!
    ____________
    MARVEL AT GOD’S CREATION
    Vacation with us on our 2014 Alaska Study Cruise, May 30-June 6. Marvel at the majesty of God’s Creation as you visit the ports of Ketchikan, Juneau, Skagway and Victoria, British Columbia and view the amazing ice formations and wildlife in Tracy Arm Fjord and the Inside Passage

    RENEW YOUR MIND
    Together we will look to God’s Word as Dr. R.C. Sproul is joined by Drs. Michael Morales and R.C. Sproul Jr. to unfold the essentials of proper biblical interpretation and the role of the Bible in the Christian life as they consider the theme of “How to Study the Bible.”

    BONUS: WEST COAST CONFERENCE
    Those who cruise with us will receive complimentary registration to our 2014 West Coast Conference in Seattle on June 6-7 immediately after the cruise. Drs. Steven Lawson, Stephen Meyer, Albert Mohler, R.C. Sproul, and R.C. Sproul Jr. will speak on “Overcoming the World”.
    _____

    PS. C’mon guys, grow up! No booze cruise jokes.

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  28. I will say, though, in passing. You would have thought the dude could have cleaned himself up and gotten a haircut for such a momentous occasion as this conference, now available to all with a connection to the world wide interweb. Live and learn, friends.

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  32. Back when Schopenhauer and Hegel were both teaching at the University of Berlin, Schopenhauer couldn’t stand Hegel. He would purposely schedule his lectures at the same time Hegel was lecturing. The first day Hegel would get hundreds of students and Schopenhauer only a handful. By the second day all of Schopenhauer’s students were gone.

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  34. If I can get Hart back to Central Iowa I plan to market a cruise on the Skunk River & Squaw Creek, if there’s any water in them. Kind of like those European river cruises, except the only thing to look at is corn fields.

    If there’s no water will just walk down the middle of the river/creek beds, hanging on his every word.

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  36. Erik, the next time you get Hart to lecture in Iowa, make sure you announce early and often. I think it would have been a great time for me to visit back home! I don’t know if I can get the good RPC folks in Indianapolis to go along with any conference plans here… Maybe the Mad Hungarian has some sway further south.

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  37. Joel,

    O.K., but what about all the people I don’t want to come?

    I’ll leave a note for you in the jelly jar down by the third fence post in the meadow.

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  38. Hey, whaddyaknow, the Des Moines Register has an article on Hope (ELCA)
    ____________
    The heartbeat of Hope’s story and vision can get lost in the large numbers, church leaders say: 16,800 members, a full-time-equivalent staff of 114 and an annual operating budget of $7.95 million, according to a 2013 annual finance report.

    But they say two other numbers are more critical: No. 1 is Jesus, and the other is the roughly 1,500 volunteers who serve the congregations each week. The identity of each congregation is determined by a central focus on salvation through Jesus, they say, combined with the volunteers who deliver that message and an ever-widening array of outreach services. The result often trumps traditional notions of what a church does and looks like.

    Hope’s pastoral staffers say the Apostle Paul, founder of the early church, established Hope’s approach with a letter to the Corinthians in Greece: “I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.”

    Hope Senior Pastor Mike Housholder puts the approach in simpler terms.

    “Whatever gets the Jesus thing going is what we want to do,” said Housholder, 49. “We hold a high view of Scripture, but we have a very free and open view of expressing ourselves in worship.”

    .. Hope also offers 134 other programs and courses, including support groups for divorcees and addicts, vacation Bible school, job fairs and art gatherings. The specialized programming alone draws more than 4,000 people to Hope churches during the week, said Chris Gunnare, Hope’s chief operating officer.

    These resources, customized to each congregation’s needs, are part of what fuels Hope’s growth, its top leaders say.

    “I don’t get to decide if we’re going to be a redwood in the forest, or a tiny little bonsai tree,” Housholder said. “God makes the decision of how big this church is going to get, and I think it would be unfaithful to get in the way of that.”

    … The message is delivered through every possible means: traditional services with liturgy and hymns, webcasts online, contemporary treatment — incorporating YouTube videos and a 10-piece rock band performance — and its exhaustive list of programs and services.

    The willingness to adapt and reinvent worship style is a vital factor out of many that turned Lutheran Church of Hope into a redwood tree years ago, leaders say. They think it also explains why the “bonsai trees” that Hope plants mature quickly.

    “You have to listen to culture,” Hope’s Gunnare said.
    _________

    What the Register failed to report was that our church recently painted the sanctuary and we’re saving up money to replace our 30 year old carpet. So there.

    “If your church is over 200 you’re doing something wrong.”

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  39. Erik, that’s easy, just offer free cigars and whiskey at the door, and they should be offended enough to just leave.

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  41. Trueman:

    That accountability question has always been the Achilles’ Heel of the evangelical parachurch movement.

    Darryl Hart:

    I’ll see Carl’s rub and raise him one. The problem is not one simply for the heavy artillery in the Gospel Coalition. This is also a Presbyterian and Reformed problem.

    Ah. The problematic term here is “parachurch.”

    Protestantism itself–especially “Calvinism”–is itself a “parachurch.” Martin Luther and Henry VIII merely sought to “reform” [Roman] Catholicism.

    But by any measure, Calvin and Calvinism and its successors began a new church, with its “reformed” theology, and then made great inroads into “Lutheranism” through Philip Melanchthon then into Henry’s church after he died.

    Even the “Greek” schism over the papacy didn’t institute a new [“reformed”] theology–aside from the question of the Pope, the two churches exist side-by-side, recognizing each other’s sacraments and “apostolic succession.”

    Protestantism–and theologically Lutheranism and Anglicanism may still enjoy some level of apostolic legitimacy—is indeed a parachurch by any measure.

    Jean Calvin instituted a new theology for better or worse, Reformed theology, commonly called by its adherents the “Reformed faith.”

    Any problem with that summary is solicited by the great minds and scholars of history–ecclesiastical history or otherwise–at this here theological society. As for the faith claims–that those here gathered hold the truer or truest understanding of what Jesus Christ and Paul of Tarsus actually believed and taught—that is stipulated in advance.

    It’s calling one reform/restoration movement a “parachurch” while exempting oneself from the same standards and critique that puzzles me.

    IOW, whose Calvinism is it anyway? As I read more and more of your history, more yours than even John Calvin’s.

    http://tinyurl.com/nuyjm6n

    Help me out here. I have no problem with the reform of the reform of the reform but in the end all but one of us is a heretic and one by one by one, our church will oblige us to leave.

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  42. Tom,

    Here is a blog I created for the kind of discussion I think you want to have. Of course, DG can respond to any or all of what you wrote. But you are asking for us to give a justification of our religion. Well OK, fine. Just don’t expect OL to have to do that in one com box, or blog post. Because calling the reformed faith a parachurch is silly. I’m happy to flesh out why.

    So click, go to my blog, which is a link back to a post “development of doctrine, Protestant style” here at OLTS, and let me know your thoughts on the OL article, by using my combox. I only ask you not use vulgar language. If you use broken HTML, thats OK. I created the blog as a way for people to use it as a kind of “sand box.” Only if you want to. No pressure. I’ve no great insight. Just an ability to share about my religion, and the awesome savior behind it all, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    Grace and peace.

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  44. Joel
    Posted March 16, 2014 at 8:44 pm | Permalink
    Erik, that’s easy, just offer free cigars and whiskey at the door

    I know not his the convo got to this point of offering hard liquor at the entrance, but interesting idea. Maybe presbytery could implement something like this as they open their stated meetings. I’m working to have our presbyters start a day early, but on the golf course. The idea being, a presbytery wide golf tournament before the business starts could help grease the gears before they get to the nitty gritty of Xtianity. And stuff.

    Consider my ideas a work in progress. There’s a way forward for any logjam. I simply put forth my ideas, here.

    Yo.

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  46. Tom,

    I’ll see your Jean Calvin and raise you Jean Stapleton, Jean Renoir, Jean Valjean, Mr. Green Jeans, Billy Jean, Little Jeannie, and I Dream of Jeannie.

    Taking much of the interesting and funny Old Life conversation private has caused these comboxes to go to the dogs.

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  47. The book alluded to at the end of this post,’Engaging with Keller’, is a worthy read, perhaps one of the best and least publicised books of 2103. There has not been even a squeak of a response to the authors’ essays from the Gospel Coalition. The book is not a populist attempt to jump on the tail coats of Mr Keller and made me wonder how Presbyterian Keller really is; much of his time seems to be spent with charismatics and evangelicals.

    Over here in Britain I wonder how the South East Gospel Partnership with their allies in The Proclamation Trust and The Good Book Company now view their near adulation of Mark Driscoll who they had over here just a couple of years or so ago? Do they still think he is kind of Reformed and equally cool and cutting edge? Perhaps not as they now have other more nuanced (and young!) stars like Kevin DeYoung to invite and have speak at their meetings.

    If Presbyterians don’t maintain a clear and winsome line between their confessional and creedal stance in contradistinction with the chaps at T4G and the GC then they will follow them into blunting if not losing all their forebears gave to the world from Europe to even the distant islands of Indonesia – read all about it in the History of Calvinism (after you have read Engaging with Keller).

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  51. O Paddy dear, and did you hear the news that going round?
    The shamrock is forbid by law to grow on Irish ground;
    St. Patrick’s Day no more we’ll keep, his colours can’t be seen,
    For there’s a bloody law against the wearing of the green.
    I met with Napper Tandy and he took me by the hand,
    And he said, “How’s poor old Ireland, and how does she stand?”
    She’s the most distressful counterie that ever yet was seen,
    And they’re hanging men and women for the wearing of the green.

    Then since the colour we must wear is England’s cruel red,
    Sure Ireland’s sons will ne’er forget the blood that they have shed.
    You may take a shamrock from your hat and cast it on the sod,
    It will take root and flourish there though underfoot it’s trod.
    When law can stop the blades of grass from growing as they grow,
    And when the leaves in summer-time their verdure dare not show,
    Then will I change the colour that I wear in my caubeen
    But ’till that day, please God, I’ll stick to wearing of the green.

    But if at last our colour should be torn from Ireland’s heart,
    Our sons with shame and sorrow from this dear old isle will part;
    I’ve heard a whisper of a land that lies beyond the sea
    Where rich and poor stand equal in the light of freedom’s day.
    O Erin, must we leave you driven by a tyrant’s hand?
    Must we ask a mother’s blessing from a strange and distant land?
    Where the cruel cross of England shall nevermore be seen,
    And where, please God, we’ll live and die still wearing of the green!

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  59. I was once worshiped with an independent baptist church, which was sponsored by an American fundamentalist mission, and met in a room in the Tullamore Dew distillery …

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  61. “On Monday March 17, twenty former Mars Hill pastors sent a letter to the executive elders and Board of Advisors and Accountability of Mars Hill Church with an invitation to enter into a process of mediation designed to lead to mutual repentance and reconciliation. According to former Mars Hill pastors Dave Kraft and Kyle Firstenberg, the pastors want to bring in specialists in conflict resolution to facilitate the process.” http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/19/twenty-former-mars-hill-pastors-seek-mediation-with-mark-driscoll-and-mars-hill-leadership/#sthash.VG7L7Phk.dpuf

    This is what you get when you’re kind of a church and kind of a business: a letter that may or may not be acted upon and conflict resolution specialists to sort it out. Who has standing to do what? What are the ground rules of engagement? What are the consequences? I’m liking the OPC Book of Discipline more and more.

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