All Roads Do Not Lead to Redeemer NYC

Published on by D. G. Hart

Finally an acknowledgement by the Allies that not everyone is cut out for life in Manhattan under the oversight of Presbyterian elders. In an interview with authors of a book on how to prepare kids for college, we receive the following candor:

College is more expensive than ever. But with regard to future earnings prospects, it’s also more significant than ever. In June 2013, the unemployment rate for non-college grads was 7.6 percent, but for college grads it was about half of that (3.9 percent). You’ll see this pattern, in good times and bad, over the last few decades. And the “earnings premium”—the additional money that a college graduate earns relative to a non-college graduate—has been steadily increasing. In 1979, high school graduates were paid 77 percent of what college graduates made; today they make about 62 percent.

This doesn’t mean every high school graduate should immediately pursue a bachelor’s degree. Associate degrees in health care and technology-related disciplines lead to high-paying jobs (and require less educational expense to access). Moreover, economists expect “middle skill” job openings—those requiring more than a high school degree but less than a bachelor’s degree—to increase. The skilled trades are also in demand (think welders, electricians, heavy equipment technicians, and so on). So it’s not a matter of “four-year college for all,” but having some kind of advanced degree or certification is increasingly important.

In other words, not everyone can afford to experience Christ’s kingdom in NYC unless he or she can graduate from Harvard or Swarthmore — and then find a high-paying job. Forget about it if your degree is from Bucknell.

104 thoughts on “All Roads Do Not Lead to Redeemer NYC”

  2. Chortles: It’s implicit in the use of the phrase “… and so on.”

    e.g. “The skilled trades are also in demand (think welders, electricians, heavy equipment technicians, [pastry chefery], and so on).”

    So to answer your question, yes.

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  4. Can a welder or an electrician really enjoy a French Baguette with Camembert cheese from Dean and Deluca? Can someone with an associates degree in Heating and Air Conditioning really appreciate NYC’s museums, art galleries, Shakespeare in the Park, and Jazz at Lincoln Center. If your paycheck forces you to shop at your local Key Food or Supremo then you’ll never experience the exquisite desserts, organic coffees, and Swiss truffles at Whole Foods. And wouldn’t your life be quite diminished? Whither the art/art history major?

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  9. It’s a sad day when where one studies counts for more than what they studied. This has a great linkage for me with what I’m reading right now in John Kotter’s book “Leading Change” as it relates to the culture of an organization and how it tends to hire within it. In that case, might be worth breaking mom and pop’s bank to get the degree/certificate/whatever from NYC, even if only to get the “cultural” edge.

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  10. “In other words, not everyone can afford to experience Christ’s kingdom in NYC unless he or she can graduate from Harvard or Swarthmore”

    Stripped of the source, how would you even guess what their intentions were? It seems like mostly bland restatements of fairly obvious advice.

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  11. Chris E., I didn’t say what their intentions were. I am pointing out that not everyone can acquire the privilege to live in NYC and to go to Redeemer NYC you need to have a certain degree of income and privilege. I wish someone out there would pay attention to that inconsistency in TKNY’s brief for Manhattan as the locus of salvation.

    p.s. the link is now in the post.

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  12. Parachurch (read: TGC) have their role and place. But the propensity for them to bite off more than they can chew, believe they are something they are not, etc etc, means the best option is to ignore their existence and be thankful for those (read: DGH) who expose their inconsistencies and nonsense.

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  13. ” I am pointing out that not everyone can acquire the privilege to live in NYC and to go to Redeemer NYC”

    Why do they need to go to NYC? There are plenty of cities everywhere. If you don’t like TGCs focus on cities, that’s fine – but they are not inconsistent according to their own measures, at least not here.

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  14. Chris, hi there.

    but they are not inconsistent according to their own measures, at least not here.

    Just me. But I kinda thought that’s what Darryl was sayin’ in his original post.

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  20. One thing that’s bogus about all this is lack of family friendliness. We’re not all childless, dual-income, urban hipsters nor did we aspire to be back in the day. Not many people are going to be able to go Buckleyesque and combine the NYC apartment with the family home in Stamford to hang out in on the weekends. I frankly have no interest in financially supporting a minister or ministry that attempts to do likewise.

    Most Christians want to locate someplace where they can make a decent income and have a reasonable cost of living — Omaha, Kansas City, Charlotte, Dallas, Des Moines, Albuquerque, Grand Rapids, Nashville. In doing this, mom might even be able to stay home, have 3-4 kids, and devote a lot of time and attention to them. Dad might actually have some time to help out because he’s not working all the time.

    New York City is a fun place to visit, but it’s not a place that most people need to aspire to live. It’s just not realistic unless you have inherited a lot of money or are making a lot of money — and that can take a heavy toll on Christian living and family. And these folks ain’t talking about Staten Island or Queens — they’re talking about Manhattan. It’s just unnecessary.

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  21. “But Erik, but Erik, Christians have to be in a place to influence the movers and shakers.”

    No, Christianity has never advanced through movers and shakers. If anything, it just screws Christianity up. Catholicism and the Roman Empire being the prime example.

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  22. For the record, I’m the knucklehead around here who sticks up for Dr. Keller. Why? I appreicate his views on science, and he got to me first. DGH entered the picture in OPC Sunday school, summer 2012 with “Fighting the good fight.” Been an addict ever since. I appreicate Reason for God, even if his Trinitarian formulations in that leave something to be desired. More could be said. Just (all about) me.

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  23. “Most Christians want to locate someplace where they can make a decent income and have a reasonable cost of living — Omaha, Kansas City, Charlotte, Dallas, Des Moines, Albuquerque, Grand Rapids, Nashville. In doing this, mom might even be able to stay home, have 3-4 kids, and devote a lot of time and attention to them. Dad might actually have some time to help out because he’s not working all the time.”

    GET OUT OF MY HEAD.

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  24. In lockstep;

    “From its inception, Redeemer Presbyterian Church has envisioned permanently locating in the urban core of San Antonio. Here lies a great mixture of people and a growing, dynamic place. After ten years of ministry, Redeemer already anchors a wide array of ministries that serve our growing, diverse membership, and seeks to extend the Gospel across the entire city. Yet the possibility of making an even greater impact is now before us. At a time when churches are leaving the city or declining amidst its urban challenges, our vision to be in the city for the city could not be more important!”

    Somehow urban cores never means the barrio or projects, but instead, the re entrenchment of white yuppies to the recently converted lofts and hipster bistros next to where the Junior league meets. Way to go, Ohio.

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  25. Erik, but still, NYC is home for somebody and some of those have to be Christians and of those there have to be some who in response to the calls to transform it must say, “Why? What’s wrong with it? I heart NYC the way it is.”

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  26. Sean,

    And the truth about even urban hipsters is that most of them want to get the hell out of there once they start having kids.

    Let’s see, would I rather my sons interact with the bum, the tranny on the corner, and the two gay dudes out walking their poodles, or would I rather they play in our backyard, join a little league team, and ride their bikes up and down the street until dark.

    This isn’t complicated.

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  28. I knew the voice of reason (read: Zrimsky) saw the point I was making.

    Now, back to Keller bashing. Much much more fun, yo.

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  29. Good point, Erik. Although, the gay guy walking his poodles in my neighborhood is a really good guy and is terribly kind to my elderly parents. If I had kids, they’d get to know him.

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  31. These folks miss (or ignore) the point that part of what frankly makes the urban setting appealing to people are the sub-Christian aspects. Where are all of the derelicts and degenerates going to go when the cities are transformed? Farms? Vans by rivers?

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  33. My wife had her own little culture war in microcosm experience at KMart yesterday. Cashier was a male transvestite. Customer in front of her was rude and wouldn’t look him in the eye. Customer leaves and cashier has a hissy fit to my wife and neighboring cashier about man. Wife just took it all in without comment.

    And this is only a mid-sized city.

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  34. Zing, kent. I told my dad he raised me a Piperian (see fair oaks dot org for the church (Concord, CA) of my yute, from birth till college), the church is a “Converge Worldwide” congregation. My dad knew of Piper ans likes him. He had no idea Piper was associated with Fair Oaks, even though my dad was an elder in that when he was my age.

    My dad is still very active in that community. Just (all about) me and dear ol’ pops. Yo..

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  35. EC: And the truth about even urban hipsters is that most of them want to get the hell out of there once they start having kids. Let’s see, would I rather my sons interact with the bum, the tranny on the corner, and the two gay dudes out walking their poodles, or would I rather they play in our backyard, join a little league team, and ride their bikes up and down the street until dark.

    PGR: Come to Portland and you can do all of the above, though our backyards are small since most homes are bungalows. Great public parks, though.

    True, a lot of hipsters do flee once they have kids (Do hipsters have kids, though? Do they have to turn in their chunky glasses and white belt when children arrive?) These folks did their evangelical wanderjahr. Move along, please.

    But I see just many who are starting families – even square headed Dutch from the midwest, no less – come to Portland to raise their families in our tragically hip, ‘burg. Some want to change the world, but most like mild winters and cheaper West Coast living.

    Transexuals and gays? Some my children talk to some they don’t. Little League? Those are some deviants! I’ve seen far more disturbing scenes at Little League games (parents and coaches acting like asses) than from my lesbian neighbors, or the dude who wears a dress at our grocery store.

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  36. In our little corner of Little Geneva we have the best of both worlds: backyards and bikes, and cohabiting gays and poodles.

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  38. I’m right there with you, Zrim. Let’s golf someday (emotiocon).

    Anyway, I steal fro. The best:

    In full agreement, here, personally:

    I don’t know what the answer is, even though I have tried to point out the dilemmas posed by a prominent PCA pastor’s poor ecclesiology. But if connectionalism is one of the aspects of Presbyterian church government, then all of us, celebrity or not, are connected to the problem of celebrity pastors.

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  39. Pat – I’ve seen far more disturbing scenes at Little League games (parents and coaches acting like asses) than from my lesbian neighbors, or the dude who wears a dress at our grocery store.

    Erik – There is some truth to what you say about Little League. The parents are indeed the problem.

    We have a local guy in a dress. He stands in front of City Hall, opening the door for people. My biggest beef with him was when he sat in a coffee shop downtown with his junk exposed, traumatizing my young son. Cops said they couldn’t do anything about it. Now that’s ridiculous.

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  40. The hard part about Little League is you have the extremes of people who act like pussies about everything (“Oh we can’t have anybody get out or keep score. It will damage the boys’ self-esteem”) and people who take it too seriously (Vic Morrow’s character in “The Bad News Bears” being the classic example). The answer is in between, just like in the rest of life.

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  41. I can’t handle the balancing act any more so I’m done coaching. If I do it again it will only be in a competitive program with high expectations. I’ll actually be one of the more low-key people in that setting.

    For now I just sit in my lawn chair and laugh a lot.

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  42. Erik, as with so many things, if you get your bluff in early the push back is greatly reduced. Until it’s not.

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  43. If you coach a team that is open to the public, here’s what to expect:

    * A kid with ADHD who can’t pay attention and refrain from picking at the kid next to him for more than 10 seconds

    * A kid who cries when you put him in a competitive situation and he doesn’t immediately succeed

    * A parent who thinks you’re operating a babysitting service and leaves you with their kid after practice is over and they’re no where to be found.

    * Divorced parents with girlfriends/boyfriends so you never have a clue if you are actually talking to the kid’s parents or not.

    * A mom who thinks your pushing her kid way too hard

    * A dad who thinks your not pushing his kid hard enough

    * A dad who thinks everyone should play every position equally

    * A mom who is upset you’re not letting her kid be the star that he is

    * Parents with opinions who were too busy, lazy, or intimidated to sign up to coach themselves

    * A few great kids & parents who almost make coaching worth it.

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  44. Erik, it gets very political, as you know. My cube neighbor has kids in little league, I hear all about it.

    We Bucks aren’t very coordinated. More of the hiking kind. So we just blow all that all off, and let others play with sticks and balls in funny uniforms. Except for soccer. Then I get really into it. But nothing else, yet, over here.

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  46. Erik, and can you imagine what the budget line for pastoral staff salaries is at Redeemer NYC? The church better attract DINCs who tithe.

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  50. C-dubs, the hubris is remarkable. I’m not even sure how to regard it anymore. It’s almost Messianic. Tim Keller is an apostle and this is one of his disciples, hear him. And he’ll seek the peace of the city as well. Cuz, well, just cuz, whatever that means, maybe a conference on culture and the arts. We will nestle in among the white and urban and hip and engage you and your children in lent while downplaying confessional and presbyterian distinctions to remain ‘big funnel’ toward all white up and comers and old monied, while remaining aware of the need for a diversity of 1-5% who we wish to be more than token but not too much. We will twice a year prepare our own distinctive Christ Pres(s)? food baskets of dented cans to be delivered to the shelter on Guadalupe street, next to the St. Vincent de Paul mission, to assuage our white guilt and, and assuage our white guilt and declare; “Us too” to our RC friends and church planting partners. Amen. Even the headers on the website scream 60’s prot lib. I expect to see “Up with People” flash across the website at any moment.

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  51. Chortles weakly referenced the staff page at Chris Pres Nashville.

    Reading down the list we come to: Associate Pastor, Missional Living

    What does someone like that do?

    – count how long it’s been since the member’s last short term missions trip? (like the RC’s do with confessions to the priest)
    – check the member’s reading list to make sure TK/Piper/Edwards books makes up at least one of every 3 books?
    – check off the member’s quarterly duty at the local community food pantry?
    – confirm a minimum number of appropriate (ecclesiastically correct) celebrity pastor name drops by each member each quarter?
    – review the member’s progress in figuring out how to do his vocation (accounting, plumbing, stock brokering, facility cleaning) Christianly, complete with vision, mission statement, and core values?

    Really – what does this person do? It can’t just be teaching/discipleship or it would say that, wouldn’t it?

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  53. “Dr. Keller was the first to introduce Scott publicly to our congregation, via this video.”

    ???

    What, did he just airdrop him in with a DVD under his arm?

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  54. “We will twice a year prepare our own distinctive Christ Pres(s)? food baskets of dented cans”

    Maybe throw in some surplus government cheese that granny wouldn’t eat.

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  55. “Reading down the list we come to: Associate Pastor, Missional Living

    What does someone like that do?”

    Have lots of free time.

    I used to play basketball at a megachurch. Nice folks, really nice to let non-members like me play there.

    They, like most megachurches had a huge staff.

    Most of their day appeared to be sitting around on their laptops, occasionally huddling with one another in small groups to drink coffee or eat lunch. Doing some Bible study, doing some strategy, praying.

    In other words, they were doing full-time what the rest of us get done in the time before we get home from work and go to bed.

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  56. I blew my punch line. Should be “in the time between when we get home from work and go to bed.”

    But seriously, one of the worst things you can do to a young guy who is excited about God is put him in an unordained position in a megachurch or a ministry before he has learned to work hard in a “secular” vocation. If he’s not going to pay his dues by going to Seminary, learning biblical languages, learning to preach, etc. you’ve set him back a decade on learning the skills required to make it in the private sector job that he is eventually going to need to feed his family.

    The model of an ordained and theologically trained pastor assisted (and overseen) by non-staff elders is far superior to the model of a charismatic pastor, a massive staff, and rubber stamp elders who couldn’t possibly hope to manage this huge organization because they’re already holding down full-time jobs.

    Why can’t megachurches just be several smaller churches? The answer is probably because the head guru won’t be lifted up as a hero or make as much money.

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  58. Darryl, yeah, he did. He also mentioned that Saul was entrepreneurial which amongst other Pauline characteristics for an elder includes: taking financial risks in the hope of profit. I thought we were supposed to slow play our commitment to real estate and church growth strategies borrowed from the commercial community. What if the IRS is listening.

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  59. “In other words, not everyone can afford to experience Christ’s kingdom in NYC unless he or she can graduate from Harvard or Swarthmore — and then find a high-paying job.”

    Not exactly. The uber-elites need regular joes to keep their kingdom growing. Somebody has to clean the toilets and drive the taxis and deliver the groceries. Does it matter to the in the city for the city crowd that living in The City is too expensive for the average person? Not really.

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  60. Also, it’s important to remember that the city elites are expecting to experience a vastly different kind of city life than the average joe/jane. I grew up inner city in one of the four largest cities in the US. My dad was pastor of an inner city, multi-racial church. My experience of the inner city is NOTHING like what Kathy Keller defends in her article on why to raise children in The City. (http://www.christianitytoday.com/thisisourcity/newyork/Raisekidsincity.html?start=6) My favorite quote to illustrate the difference is this one:

    “wealthy people in cities are always happy to lend their vacation homes to ministry families for weekends and getaways, as long as you are flexible; since ministry happens on weekends, mid-week getaways don’t generally conflict with the owners’ desire to use it on weekends”

    It’s all about who you know, isn’t it.

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  61. Rachel, I liked the closer; Access to the best of the best…… and influencers in every field. It’s straight out of III Timothy. You know, when I was part of a Redeemer plant, we were supposed to keep all the secrets under our hat. I’m not sure what to make of the public displays of the previously veiled intentions. Is it: we’re too big to stop, so sorry for you, but not really. Or is it, we don’t care anymore, stick this in your pipe, we own your presbytery anyway. Either way, I may be in favor of the idea that the gloves are off. I’m ready for a good row.

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  62. Yes, landlord, the purring one said “our best practices.” It was probably the most offensive part of a presentation that was hard to take from beginning to end.

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  63. Among Br’er Sauls’ “creative innovations” at Redeemer-TKNY was the ordination of females to the diaconate contra the PCA Book of Church Order, captured on the video below. Remember the shockwaves this sent through the PCA? Me neither.

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  65. About a missional pastor. I’m not quite sure what that is either. However, this video might help explain.

    Back to the books. Over and out…

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  66. I think the key for the missional pastor is to have the earnest soundtrack combined with a people montage going on as you do your job and simultaneously seek to give it importance and bounding.

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  67. And seeking the peace of the city is like way more important than seeking the peace and purity of the church. Paul was big on that.

    In the interest of full disclosure, one wag in my church said (all about) I was big on the “purity and purity” of the church.

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  69. RGM:” Also, it’s important to remember that the city elites are expecting to experience a vastly different kind of city life than the average joe/jane.”

    Rachel, somehow city life in “The City” always seems to mean areas close to Central Park, Broadway, Greenwich Village, SOHO, and Tribeca. Throw in Chinatown and Jackson Heights for an authentic foodie experience – but be sure to leave the restaurant for home before it gets real dark. “The City” never seems to mean Newark, Irvington, Crown Heights, Corona, or Jamaica. Can people in these blighted areas (no Whole Foods, art galleries, or French-Cuban-Thai fusion restaurants) really be flourishing.

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  71. “wealthy people in cities are always happy to lend their vacation homes to ministry families for weekends and getaways, as long as you are flexible; since ministry happens on weekends, mid-week getaways don’t generally conflict with the owners’ desire to use it on weekends”

    Where’s my barf bag?

    Good luck shepherding (and maybe having to discipline) that rich dude after you’ve sponged off him for a decade.

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  72. I know a guy who used to work for a megachurch.

    He said the lead pastor received list of how much people gave, from largest amount to smallest. Guess which segment of the list he spent his time cultivating?

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  74. Dave – Then there is this story which ran on the BaylyBlog with hardly a comment:

    Erik – That’s cause they’ve banned 96% of potential commenters.

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  75. Andrew – “The City” never seems to mean Newark, Irvington, Crown Heights, Corona, or Jamaica

    Erik – Indeed. When are we going to start hearing about transforming “The Hood”. Or Hoboken.

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  76. I’m really confused about that borrowing the house point. First, although I’m not sure she means it to, it implies that ministry happens on weekends but not on weekdays? What about hospital visitations and Wednesday Bible studies/prayer meetings. Second, are wealthy people in rural areas more “stingy” with their houses? Third, how is it even a selling point in the first place?

    And there’s also a point in there about there being less peer pressure for kids in the city. What does that mean?

    We need to reach people in the city no doubt. But those points about why life in the city is so great are just confusing to me.

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  77. Wives are only of limits if they don’t blog.

    Why oh why did mine start blogging?

    Dont tell anyone, guys..

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  79. You’d think that a man who has written so extensively about finding the idols in one’s life would notice that The City can become an idol.

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  80. Just a side note about why The City is never Newark, etc. My husband is from Pennsylvania, and he says one of the most irritating things about the Northeast is that “The City” always means New York City.

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  81. In in NorCal, it always means San Francisco. Also moderately irritating.

    Meanwhile, going “into Town” always means driving 10-15 min (or more) to get to a population density barely matching a suburb. That’s more like it.

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  82. Kidding folks. But it would be funny if I was really a Tim Keller spy, sent to figure you all out. You know, Vatican style..

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  83. Call me Captain Obvious again, but is it not worth noting that all of the weirdy stuff in Presbyterianism comes out of NY?

    I think DGH may have said something of the sort but I would need your help locating the reference.

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  88. As the Keller plant here at OL, I need quick access to the jabs against the Bishop of NY, Jas. I’ve been doing this a while (sigh).

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  91. Erik,

    Yes, you are correct, the Bayly’s have banned a lot of folks who wish to make comments. I realize that citing them is a little dangerous on this site, but to my knowledge they were the only ones in the PCA who commented on Rev. Scott Sauls and that wedding ceremony. That was my point.

    I really don’t care about the rest of that particular post, just the fact of the wedding ceremony co-officiating with a female minister. I can’t imagine anyone in my presbytery doing something like that yet is some/many presbyteries in the PCA that’s kind of par for the course. Sad.

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  92. Ummm, maybe not telegenic enough. And that doesn’t have to be mean, unless pink hair is your thing

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  93. Dave – I realize that citing them is a little dangerous on this site

    Erik – Yes it is. In fact, I’m going to fine you $20. Send me your checking account number and routing number and I’ll withdraw it.

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  96. Lo, Redeemeritis spreadeth like a plague. Yea, even as far as Louisville, where resideth a pastor who tells us that Jesus died on the cross for cities and for the non-specific needs of the poor:

    “You know your heart is on the right track when you realize that only Jesus’ work on the cross can save your city and ultimately meet the needs of the poor. Find others who realize this, and your mercy ministry will take off.”

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2014/01/10/how-to-start-and-persevere-with-inner-city-ministry/

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  97. But C-dubs, tell me you wouldn’t stand the man up if he invited you to golf with him?

    C’mon! (winky emoticon).

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  102. AB
    Posted April 10, 2014 at 9:22 am | Permalink
    CW, understood. I play for $11 on the kiddie course (executive 9, par3 course here. But don’t tell anyone..

    Busted. ;-P

    Verdugo Hills awaits. 18 manly holes, 18 bucks.

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  103. Tom, a church friend called me this morning to play 9 holes with him and his son, today, while I watched my 7 year old daughter win her soccer game. Alas, I already had a date planned with the wife in Santa Cruz. I told him we would find time soon.

    In two weeks, playing here with work mates, before work, the back 9. It’s where my avatar photo us from. That photo is my first ever golf game in summer of 2010. Don’t get me started on golf dude..

    http://www.santaclaragc.com/

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  104. AB
    Posted April 13, 2014 at 1:18 am | Permalink
    Tom, a church friend called me this morning to play 9 holes with him and his son, today, while I watched my 7 year old daughter win her soccer game. Alas, I already had a date planned with the wife in Santa Cruz. I told him we would find time soon.

    In two weeks, playing here with work mates, before work, the back 9. It’s where my avatar photo us from. That photo is my first ever golf game in summer of 2010. Don’t get me started on golf dude..

    No one needs to get you started on golf bro. It’s like getting Darryl started on Catholicism or Erik started on YouTube. As if we could stop you.

    Like

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