The missus and I are struggling to finish Mad Men. We are almost through with Season Six. A couple nights ago I asked if she agreed with my sense that Mad Men is superior to Breaking Bad only because of the atmospherics — 1960s urban American business culture with all the elegance that used to mark the professions. She did. Today, after a few more episodes, I asked if Breaking Bad was superior to Mad Men because it did not manipulate sex and flashbacks to make up for characters without any interest. She agreed again.
I’m on a roll.
But I am almost to the breaking point with Mad Men after Don Draper’s personification of Marlin Brando in Last Tango in Paris. Draper seems even less of a real character than Walter White. His appeal apparently is his sexual performance but since the writers don’t seem to be interested in dialogue (and they can’t show even simulated sex on AMC), we have to assume that Draper has no need for Viagra, penicillin, or words that actually woo his conquests (even though he’s supposed to be quite the wordsmith with his advertising firm’s clients). The only depth we receive for Don or his times are flashbacks to his boyhood — as if growing up for part of his youth in a bordello explains his insatiable desire (as if my fundamentalist parents could not have come up with that story line) — and scenes from broadcast news telecasts about the Vietnam War, Civil Rights movement, and the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Bobby Kennedy. My peers in radio-tv-film at Temple University could have written a better script.
Meanwhile, the viewing public is clueless:
Rottentomatoes
The Wire 100%
Breaking Bad 99%
Mad Men 97%
Foyle’s War 100%
IMBD
The Wire 9.4
Breaking Bad 9.6
Mad Men 8.7
Foyle’s War 8.4
Amazon
The Wire 4.5
Breaking Bad 5
Mad Men 4.5
Foyle’s War 5
Old Life
The Wire A
Breaking Bad C-
Mad Men F
Foyle’s War A-
Old Life 
Mad Men is a marathon, not a sprint, and I agree that not every arc works equally well. Don’s “Last Tango” redux (can it really be a redux since the episodes take place in the 60s and “Tango” didn’t appear until the 70s?) is not one of his (or the show’s) finest moments. Both Brando’s character and Don used sex to salve their despair, though, and there is something to that notion that rings at least fairly true.
One of the biggest problems with that arc was Linda Cardellini as the mistress. Anyone who has seen “Freaks & Geeks” just can’t buy it. And what’s with Alexis Bledel & Neve Campbell playing similar female roles? New faces like Abigail Spencer as Suzanne Farrell, Laura Ramsey as Joy in “The Jet Set” episode, and even Jessy Schram as Bonnie Whiteside are more effective.
This is Proust or Anthony Powell as inspired by John Cheever, it’s not noir like Breaking Bad or gritty realism like The Wire. This is why I can watch episodes multiple times while I have no desire to do so with the other two. You need to just take the time to soak it in, marinate in it, and laugh at Roger’s jokes.
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Glad to see Foyle’s War ranking so highly in the lists!
In my opinion, it was the pleasant cinematic surprise of the last decade (or two?)
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Erik, you mean if I read Proust Mad Men would make sense? Please don’t make me do that.
Roger is the only character I like. Hank was the only character on BB I liked. I still miss all The Wire’s characters.
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The best season is season 4 when Don is between marriages. “The Suitcase” is the pinnacle.
Likeable characters are not a staple of modern literature and film. Find me the likeable character in “The Sopranos”.
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Forgive me for chiming in, as BB is arguably (IMO) one of the best shows that’s been on television second only to (maybe) The Wire, but surely OL’s rating is not based solely off of the likability of a show’s characters!
That is certainly one aspect of what makes a good show a “good show,” but maybe we ought to evaluate a show’s quality on something more broad and fundamental, like the Six Aristotilian Elements of Drama. Maybe then our eval of a good show won’t be based on the characters that (or how many characters for that matter) “I like.” 😉
Two cents. My interest is piqued when I hear BB or Mr. Walter White…
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Here’s my tiresome, reflex recommendation of Scandi-Noir crime series — the Swedish-Danish production of the “The Bridge” (Bron-Broen) and the Swedish “Wallander.” Subtitles are a beautiful thing. Warning: gray, dark and dour.
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At the risk of creating too-high expectations, I would put Fargo right up there with Wire. I can’t remember any show that I was so eager to see each next episode, except maybe early on in Justified.
Also Chortles, if you’re going to talk Scandi-Noir, don’t forget The Killing. The Seattle-based american one was very good (didn’t see the original). Same with The Bridge’s El Paso version. And also I saw the BBC Wallander with Kenneth Branagh, also very good. But it would be cool to see the original language ones. (The original Girl with Dragon Tattoo movie I did see, that was great too, but I think the American was pretty much as good)
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Erik, ask me about — wait for it — The Wire.
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RubeR, none of the online services have the original of “The Killing” right now, or I would. I’m on the US version of the “The Bridge.” There’s a UK-French version too but it’s not available either.
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Miles, Aristotle to justify a series that could have easily ended after two seasons. As I’ve said, the writers used Walter and his wife like Playdough so they could milk five seasons out of the network. Sorry, much as I LIKE Aristotle, it’s not working for me — HERE!
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CW, started Wallander and like Branaugh a ton but don’t think the missus will go there. Go figure. The Bridge looks like it may have similar problems – serial killers always invite sensation.
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Rube, saw ads for Fargo in the UK. Anything with the Coens’ fingerprints on it is a must.
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DG, but there’s a real Old Life vibe to the Scandi shows, you know — lagom…modest.
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Speaking of modest, the understated “Foyle’s War” theme would make a good one for Old Life’s warrior juveniles.
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As in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l338p2nDzS4
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Mad Men simply sucketh. It’s a soapie about one dude.
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DGH: “a series that could have easily ended after two seasons”
RR: One of the cool things about Fargo is (I won’t link because anything will have spoilers) the producer’s concept is to reboot with new characters each “season”. From the movie, Frances McDormand’s character is not going to see a case like that every year; once in a lifetime, and the rest is boring. If you squeeze too much in, it becomes artificial. I think this may be one reason so many series wear out their welcome, because viewers stop being able to suspend their disbelief that any one person’s life could really have THAT much drama in it. If the point is “just a regular guy, but one day…” at some point the “but then” has to be over and “regular guy” takes over.
Related; that’s why I think it was so cool from Wire that Presbyterialewsky changed careers to become a teacher. Or even the central conceit of “The Wire”. The series was only focussed on wiretapping in the first season, right?
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Disappointed in myself that I missed that first season of “Fargo” on TV. Losing my edge. I had a hard time coming up with the word “closet” today.
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Rube – that’s why I think it was so cool from Wire that Presbyterialewsky changed careers to become a teacher
Erik – Not that he had much choice…
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Reasonably sure this was already posted here somewhere but this thread is dying for it.
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The problem I had with Mad Men (and at a certain point The Sopranos) was that I ceased to care what actually happened to the characters.
The power of BB for me was that even when I ceased to sympathise with Walter, I still felt compelled to watch out of a fascination of the horrible, plus I still wanted to know how Walter would end.
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Mike K., Family Guy is not as good as The Wire.
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Seriously? An “F”? Hart, that is ridiculous. I didn’t even bother to watch the last season of Breaking Bad. I love the fact that Mad Men isn’t dependent solely on events but can have 15 minutes of dialogue and isn’t afraid of silence.
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I enjoy the fact that in “Foyle’s War” and older Brit shows like “Touch of Frost” hardly anyone gets shot and the bad guys usually just shove down the poor unarmed gendarme and run away. You’ve got to go all-in with the British shows. They don’t always mix well with US offerings.
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Sons of Anarchy, anyone?
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Scott P., dialogue? You haven’t seen enough chick flicks. Just last night when Peggy and Jonie are talking about the Avon account the dialogue goes for 40 seconds and just when it might get interesting about office politics, career egotism, and the advertising industry, they cut to another scene.
It is precisely because MM refuses to let characters develop thoughts and express that the show is just one series of Don D. getting laid and his enablers.
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binx, isn’t that just a biker version of Duck Dynasty?
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Re: Mad Men and character development. This is a show about advertising. The point of advertising is to embellish, to present things as being better than they really are. The same is true of many of the characters, most of whom work in advertising. They have money and everything money can buy, but they are profoundly unhappy. They keep striving, keep grasping, but the more they strive and grasp, the deeper their despair becomes. There’s a profound message there about the nature of success and the American Dream, at least as they are conceived of at the highest levels of American society in that time and place.
As far as the sex goes, the problem with PG rated sex is they have to overdo the titillation factor because they can’t show much. If the show was R rated, they would probably cool it because when you can show everything, and you do, it quickly becomes tedious. Mad Men just continues to tease, because that’s all they can do on basic cable.
The suspense is the ongoing story is whether or not Don will find redemption, kill himself, or neither. It’s been hinted at since the beginning with the opening credits. It’s been teased as he sits on the balcony of his high rise, pondering his life. Now we wonder if it’s Ted, not Don, who will jump. Maybe, like with the Sopranos, we’ll get an ambiguous ending, though. We’ll see in 2015.
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Don Draper actually has a lot of similarities to Jimmy McNulty.
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DGH – only if Willie and Jase were running guns and drugs. Jonah Goldberg had a good piece on it in NR a few years back.
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Brando is not a sailfish.
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Erik, I like what you say about MM and it almost redeems it for me. But I don’t really see the striving. I wish the writers would give us more of life in an ad agency the way the Wire gives us a feel for the police force, the mayoral office, the docks, or the public school classroom. It all seems like window dressing in MM so the show can show what the 1960s were like.
A BBC show that gives you the 1960s and much much more is The Hour. Speaking of Jimmie, Dominic West is a star.
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Dr. Hart,
I completely agree with you about Mad Men. I originally liked it, but I think it’s becoming more of a serialized Michael Bay movie for adults. It’s full of sexuality and hype, but little real content. I second your endorsement of The Hour. Dominic West was phenomenal, though I fear he may be starting to get type cast. At least he got a little variety playing Scrooge’s nephew in A Christmas Carol with Patrick Stuart. I wish the BBC hadn’t canceled it after two seasons. I still hold out hope that maybe they’ll do a one off Christmas special to provide resolution.
Foyle’s War is one of my favorite shows too. I guess I’m an Old Lifer when it comes to my television habits too. Michael Kitchen may be one of my favorite actors of all time now. Certainly one of the best contemporary actors. He says so much with so little. It’s fantastic. Of course, I go off the straight and narrow a bit as a David Tennant and Dr. Who fan.
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I agree that the show is at its best when it is focused on the office. I think they do the period stuff pretty well, perhaps the best example being when Roger’s daughter’s wedding intersected with the Kennedy Assassination. Sometimes when they try too hard it gets a bit wooden, though. See Don & Betty leave their litter behind after a picnic. See Megan offer Don a threesome. Yeah, we get it, our parents and grandparents were clods. The Sopranos had the same problem in the episode when they focused on discrimination against Italian Americans (written by Michael Imperioli, I believe). Great art is always subtle, never forced, and it’s a constant challenge for even the best writers to maintain that when the pressure is on to turn out the pages.
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To see Dominic West kick ass in a completely different way, look for the british series Appropriate Adult, also with Emily Watson.
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If I can comment on your own writing, I have liked it all, but I can cite two examples where I think you create art, almost in spite of the subject, in the nonfiction genre. One is the entire work of “Defending the Faith”, which I presume you had a long time to craft, and a second is the chapters in “Between the Times” on OPC missions and the publishing of the Psalter Hymnal. Sometimes things just come together in a special and memorable way and its the same thing for a screenwriter. What makes it come together is hard to quantify, but that’s the nature of great art. It’s greater than the sum of its parts.
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RubeRad,
Thanks for the recommendation. It sounds interesting. I will have to check it out. I’ll add it to my list along with the British miniseries Broadchurch (with David Tennant). Broadchurch has gotten some really good reviews, though it’s being remade for an American audience (which I’m always a bit concerned about).
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Good stuff. As for David Tennant, wife&I just the other night finished The Escape Artist from BBC, but over here it was on I think PBS Masterpiece Theater or Murder Masterpiece or whatever it’s called. Quite good, definitely also worth a watch!
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My favorite MM speculation. I stopped watching it 2 seasons ago because it bored and annoyed me (especially that trip to California storyline)
View at Medium.com
Pete and Peggy were the best/most interesting characters seasons 1-3, maybe 4. Not sure if they still are.
Representing the female vote, Foyle is way more attractive than Draper (and Michael Kitchen is older than my dad).
For great dialogue, the mister and I love Veep, and it’s British counterpart, The Thick of It (same director as the movie In The Loop) Nasty, nasty characters, but so funny. I can’t watch The Thick of It after 10pm because it’s almost completely dialogue-driven, and takes some concentration. Veep is flashier (being American), but equally well written.
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Has anyone here followed the Showtime series “Episodes”? The funniest show I’ve seen in years. Not for the children.
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Katy,
After reading that article, how can you think it’s boring?
Wow, that was good.
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