47 thoughts on “From DGH on Weak on Holiness Submitted on 2014/11/21 at 1:55 pm (PST)”
Mark just learned the cardinal rule of Reformed community: No matter how much you exposit and teach the necessity of the law, one whiff of grace will give someone an excuse for the A-word.
RGM, I thought it was a shot, but – to be honest – I can’t figure what MJ is getting at half the time. And his ham-fisted stabs at humor are even more inscrutable.
Darryl, you block my comments then write meaningless comments to other blogs, here on your blog.
No wonder your Orthodox Presbyterian Church is the doctrinal “pea under the mattress” [which is cool] but not actually the church that Christ instituted.
Your Own Private Idaho. I dig you, man, but you’re ultimately bogus.
I am just thinking out loud here, but maybe if you offered the Dude a heartfelt hug, it might penetrate through the heart of one bound in decades of bondage to the OPC. I am not talking about the brisk Presbyterian hug with three quick pats to the opposite shoulder. I am talking a 15-30 second wrist-lock between the belt-line and the bottom of the rib-cage, while leaning into the nape of his neck with some deep sighs form the depths of your alienated soul.
The Dude might be a hard-ass, but somewhere deep down in there is a lost little kid who just needs some love.
The alternative is some of your comments could have been caught in his spam-box, in which case – what gives with the whining? Maybe you need that hug amigo, in which case I am sure Zrim would be happy to oblige.
Jed, victor delta, tango is paranoid. I haven’t blocked any of his comments (if I blocked any why would I let these through). victor delta, tango hasn’t leased a new modem in 20 years.
The actual illocution of my question was to say, “hi everybody, there’s more than one Darren out there, so …,” yeah, don’t have a point beyond that.
Almost posted as “Darren” as I usually do in the rare times that I comment. The potential for identity hilarity was tempting to see Darren talking back at himself: one side apparently having no sense of humor, the other, apparently having a sense of humor lamer and more arcane than MJ. It might increase the Darren-mystery quotient; but more likely ensure that Darren gets ignored in the reformed blogosphere. Probably not a desirable outcome.
Yes, I think I get the point of DGH’s point. He’s mocking Jones’ efforts at humor by pointing out that some of the theologians generally most revered like Owen were not known for wit. So the two don’t have to go together. Trying to force them together can have unpleasant results. Occasionally DGH has a post that’s abstruse and opaque, but I find those the exception not the trule.
TVD is back and fresh from the “Press Your Luck” tournament of champions; bearing the same wild-eyed accusations he was slinging before he left. I often imagine that you fancy yourself as Moriarty to DHG’s Sherlock. However, I think the comparison is more like Kite Man to Batman.Tell me, which of the ten pockets in your cargo shorts do you like to keep your car keys in? Mine is top right.
I’ve followed this sanctification debate in the PCA for a while. For the life of me, I can’t see what’s at stake. I realize that people may hold to a range of different views on this issue. But I can’t see that any of these views lie outside of the bounds of Reformed orthodoxy. This seems about as important as debating which Faulkner novel is the best.
Some Southern White Republicans (the Neonomians) are worried that some other Southern White Republicans (The Antinomians) are not quite Southern, White, or Republican enough.
That pretty much sums up the debate.
We have the same thing in the URCNA but substitute “Dutch” for “Southern” and throw in Belgic 36.
Maybe I’m old-fashioned, but such uncalled for snideness directed at a lady coming from a representative of collective Darrens makes me want to throw down the glove and issue a disciplinary challenge with a gauntlet across the mannerless knave’s face, in order to restore Darrenic honor.
FirstDarren, I may lack the brain-power to understand when you ask a question, but at least when I choose to be obnoxious, I try to participate in the fun.
I too have been watching this for years in the PCA, it is the PCA’s direction in this which is a reason (not by a long shot the only reason) I am no longer in the PCA. No doubt in my mind that the obessive drive to “be the Gospel” and the lax attitude toward Federal Vision Theology so prevelant in the PCA is tied to all of this. In part I agree with you, left as an adiaphora conversation you would be correct. However, when line has been crossed by many with accusations of Lutheran, Antinomian and semi-Pelagianism all bets are off.
The hubris of those who see themselves as the Keepers of Orthodoxy (those obsessed with rooting out the hole in other peoples holiness) in that holding to their view of this issue lay the way of true Reformed identity or even take it as far as being on the side of true Gospel integrity. At that point there is a lot at stake on this issue.
E. Burns – The hubris of those who see themselves as the Keepers of Orthodoxy (those obsessed with rooting out the hole in other peoples holiness) in that holding to their view of this issue lay the way of true Reformed identity or even take it as far as being on the side of true Gospel integrity.
Erik – It’s also noteworthy that the most zealous holiness monitors inevitably seem to be the guys caught with their ample-sized pants around their ankles at the Motel 6 when the latest prostitution sting goes down.
When we know full well that our own holiness isn’t up to par we often want to obsessively focus on others’ lack of holiness.It’s easier than asking ourselves tough questions.
At the Motel 6, or when their female nurses come into the room.
Also, I pretty much agree with your assessment. I’ve always viewed the PCA as something akin to a de facto wing of the SBC for people who don’t want to commune with blue-collar folk. I’ve spent a fair number of years in the Carolinas. In my experience in the South, you’re far more likely to find Reformational theology preached in a conservative PCUSA church than in a PCA church.
It’s probably not an accident that many of the so-called antinomians pastor wealthier churches. The PCA has always been a very middle-class denomination. In middle-class Southern culture, the church plays a strong explicit role in articulating the moral stance of the community over which it presides. This largely grew out of the fact that there were few other social institutions that shaped the moral conduct of middle-class Southerners.
One sees nothing of the sort in upper-class Southern culture. In upper-class Southern culture, there are a myriad of interwoven social institutions that implicitly govern the moral conduct of their participants. Therefore, the church doesn’t need to take up such tasks, and can content itself with the workaday dispensation of the securements.
In that sense, it’s not that the so-called antinomians are truly antinomian. They simply see no need for the church to take on task of moral reform, especially where a number of other social institutions have taken on that task with reasonable effectiveness. For example, I know two upper-class Southern openly gay men who are both married to women. Neither are particularly pious, although both attend worship weekly at an ECUSA church. I asked one why he didn’t consider marrying someone of the same sex. he replied, furrowing his brow, “Same-sex marriage is so tacky, so middle-class.”
Ross Douthat addresses this point in his editorial “Social Liberalism as Class Warfare”.
That’s probably what allows Lutherans to be Lutheran. They operate in a socially dense culture that contains a lot of implicit cues as to how one is to govern oneself morally. People are permitted to dabble in libertinism because there’s little risk that it will ever become anything but dabbling. The so-called antinomians largely pastor churches whose members come from such subcultures (whether it’s upper-class Southern culture or Lake Wobegon).
The neo-nomians probably aren’t so lucky. They serve people who are only one or two generations away from the textile mill, who managed to pull themselves out of poverty by submitting themselves to the explicit moral cues of pietistic Protestantism.
So, yeah, it’s not really a question about theology. Rather, it’s about whether upper-class and upper-middle-class people belong in the denomination, or whether they should’t just pack their bags for the EPC or ECO.
That reminds me of an interaction I had with the pastor of a large PCA church in Winston-salem a few years ago. In his sermon, he mentioned that Karl Barth did not believe in the Resurrection. After the service, I mentioned that Barth indeed believed in the Resurrection, and that he may have confused Barth with some other theologian. He replied, “I don’t know what Karl Barth believed, and I don’t care; if you have a problem with that, you should probably look for another church.”
Bobby, don’t forget to stir in race and Scotch-Irish vs planter culture. Southern presbyterianism is a thrill a minute. Oh, and talk to Sean about SEC frat culture’s influence on the PCA.
The PCA is a weird place. They’re southern baptist presbyterians. I never did like southern baptists much and I don’t think they much care for presbyterians.
Being an ACC guy myself, I’m not a fan of SEC frat culture. Besides, my French-Scottish ethnicity doesn’t lend itself too well to the growth of floppy bangs.
I was raised in a Southern Presbyterian family, but very much in the Huguenot-Scots sense. I also grew up in Indiana, my grandfathers having moved their families north to take jobs with GM. So, I did not experience Southern Presbyterian culture firsthand. But what I learned via my family was very much of the Stuart Robinson variety.
I still see vestiges of that within the more conservative Southern PCUSA churches, many of jettisoned the PCUSA for the ECO or EPC. But I see little of it in the PCA. By in large, the PCA folk in the South (excluding Florida and Atlanta) seem to derive from those my grandmother would have referred to as “cotton-patch Baptists.” I don’t much care for such people. After all, I’m among those who believes in wearing a suit and bowtie to college football games.
To be honest, I don’t think there were really any significant theological issues that actually underlay the 1973 split. It was more of a cultural divide. The neo-evangelical movement had been brewing for about 15-20 years, and a number of these second-tier PCUS churches were interested in aligning themselves with that movement. So, they left and formed a denomination that would permit them to affiliate more closely with neo-evangelicalism and with like-minded Southern Baptists.
By the way, I attended my first SEC football game ever this season. I went in SEC style…heavily inebriated and clad in nothing but sunglasses, flip-flops, a backwards baseball cap, and a pair of short-hemmed cotton shorts. I was wearing a wife-beater when I left the hotel, but it disappeared somewhere around Miller Lite #6 or #7.
Bobby – y the way, I attended my first SEC football game ever this season. I went in SEC style…heavily inebriated and clad in nothing but sunglasses, flip-flops, a backwards baseball cap, and a pair of short-hemmed cotton shorts. I was wearing a wife-beater when I left the hotel, but it disappeared somewhere around Miller Lite #6 or #7.
Erik – You’re lucky no one mistook you for Tom Van Dyke.
Bobby – I asked one why he didn’t consider marrying someone of the same sex. he replied, furrowing his brow, “Same-sex marriage is so tacky, so middle-class.”
Ugh. Can we just scrap the whole group? Somebody kick Jones in the head on their way out, just cuz, and we’ll start over. This time, west of the Mississippi.
There are some “we are able to obey” boys in the opc also.
Gaffin: We must confront a tendency, within churches of the Reformation to view the gospel and salvation in its outcome almost exclusively in terms of justification…… Sanctification is viewed as an expression of gratitude from our side for our justification and the free forgiveness of our sins, usually with the accent on the imperfection and inadequacy of such expressions of gratitude. The attitude we may have — at least this is the way it comes across — is something like, “If Jesus did that for you, died that your sins be forgiven, you should at least do this for him, try to please him?”
Gaffin: This outlook tends to devolve into moralism. I hope, too, not to be misunderstood here. Surely our gratitude is important. How could we be anything but grateful for the free forgiveness of our sins? That note of gratitude, whether or not explicit, is pervasive and unmistakable in Paul . No doubt, too, all of our efforts as believers are, at best, imperfect and flawed by our continuing to sin. BUT Paul sounds a different, much more radical note about sanctification and the good works of Christians.
Old Life 
Mark just learned the cardinal rule of Reformed community: No matter how much you exposit and teach the necessity of the law, one whiff of grace will give someone an excuse for the A-word.
(Rhymes with “rantinomianism”)
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I really enjoyed his juvenile swipe at the Aquila Report. Such class.
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It is classy, isn’t it, Rachel? And then he runs to mamma and complains when he gets answered in return.
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RGM, I thought it was a shot, but – to be honest – I can’t figure what MJ is getting at half the time. And his ham-fisted stabs at humor are even more inscrutable.
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The old saying – “a conservative is a liberal who got mugged.”
Mark got mugged…
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I’m the CW, I don’t get MJ’s comedic point most of the time.
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Darryl, you block my comments then write meaningless comments to other blogs, here on your blog.
No wonder your Orthodox Presbyterian Church is the doctrinal “pea under the mattress” [which is cool] but not actually the church that Christ instituted.
Your Own Private Idaho. I dig you, man, but you’re ultimately bogus.
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David,
Do you get the point of this post?
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Darren, so what’s the point of your post?
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TomasVonDarryl-detractor,
I am just thinking out loud here, but maybe if you offered the Dude a heartfelt hug, it might penetrate through the heart of one bound in decades of bondage to the OPC. I am not talking about the brisk Presbyterian hug with three quick pats to the opposite shoulder. I am talking a 15-30 second wrist-lock between the belt-line and the bottom of the rib-cage, while leaning into the nape of his neck with some deep sighs form the depths of your alienated soul.
The Dude might be a hard-ass, but somewhere deep down in there is a lost little kid who just needs some love.
The alternative is some of your comments could have been caught in his spam-box, in which case – what gives with the whining? Maybe you need that hug amigo, in which case I am sure Zrim would be happy to oblige.
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Other Darren,
I am asking a question. That’s the point. Is that hard for you to understand? (another question)
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Jed, victor delta, tango is paranoid. I haven’t blocked any of his comments (if I blocked any why would I let these through). victor delta, tango hasn’t leased a new modem in 20 years.
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The actual illocution of my question was to say, “hi everybody, there’s more than one Darren out there, so …,” yeah, don’t have a point beyond that.
Almost posted as “Darren” as I usually do in the rare times that I comment. The potential for identity hilarity was tempting to see Darren talking back at himself: one side apparently having no sense of humor, the other, apparently having a sense of humor lamer and more arcane than MJ. It might increase the Darren-mystery quotient; but more likely ensure that Darren gets ignored in the reformed blogosphere. Probably not a desirable outcome.
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CW~ he’s hard to interpret. But I am thankful for the traffic he’s sent our way 🙂
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That’s just what I want — a sanctification, law-gospel expert who’s hard to interpret.
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FirstDarren,
Yes, I think I get the point of DGH’s point. He’s mocking Jones’ efforts at humor by pointing out that some of the theologians generally most revered like Owen were not known for wit. So the two don’t have to go together. Trying to force them together can have unpleasant results. Occasionally DGH has a post that’s abstruse and opaque, but I find those the exception not the trule.
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correction: “post” not “point” for the second point
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TVD is back and fresh from the “Press Your Luck” tournament of champions; bearing the same wild-eyed accusations he was slinging before he left. I often imagine that you fancy yourself as Moriarty to DHG’s Sherlock. However, I think the comparison is more like Kite Man to Batman.Tell me, which of the ten pockets in your cargo shorts do you like to keep your car keys in? Mine is top right.
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I don’t understand any of this.
Maybe if Tom moved from a rental modem to a rent-to-own modem that would clear things up.
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Jed, with my aversion to whiners and pda (holiness challenged?), not likely. Maybe a hug from a fellow resistance theorist?
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Pope Francis has his interpreters. I have (all about) mine.
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Zrim, this is a safe place you don’t have to repress your feelings here. Feel the warmth of our eeevanjellycal love man.
To the point however, it appears that a change is motto is in order for Ref21:
Ref21: Where we like to have our cake and eat it too.
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Funny tweet I saw today:
Seriously tho, @reformation21 is turning into youth ministry: come for the awkward, stay for the hubris.
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RGM,
Is Rev. Tim Tom, The Roving Rev, contributing?
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Speaking of class, a lot of that coming from RGM herself.
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I’ve followed this sanctification debate in the PCA for a while. For the life of me, I can’t see what’s at stake. I realize that people may hold to a range of different views on this issue. But I can’t see that any of these views lie outside of the bounds of Reformed orthodoxy. This seems about as important as debating which Faulkner novel is the best.
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Bobby,
Some Southern White Republicans (the Neonomians) are worried that some other Southern White Republicans (The Antinomians) are not quite Southern, White, or Republican enough.
That pretty much sums up the debate.
We have the same thing in the URCNA but substitute “Dutch” for “Southern” and throw in Belgic 36.
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Maybe I’m old-fashioned, but such uncalled for snideness directed at a lady coming from a representative of collective Darrens makes me want to throw down the glove and issue a disciplinary challenge with a gauntlet across the mannerless knave’s face, in order to restore Darrenic honor.
FirstDarren, I may lack the brain-power to understand when you ask a question, but at least when I choose to be obnoxious, I try to participate in the fun.
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Bobby,
I too have been watching this for years in the PCA, it is the PCA’s direction in this which is a reason (not by a long shot the only reason) I am no longer in the PCA. No doubt in my mind that the obessive drive to “be the Gospel” and the lax attitude toward Federal Vision Theology so prevelant in the PCA is tied to all of this. In part I agree with you, left as an adiaphora conversation you would be correct. However, when line has been crossed by many with accusations of Lutheran, Antinomian and semi-Pelagianism all bets are off.
The hubris of those who see themselves as the Keepers of Orthodoxy (those obsessed with rooting out the hole in other peoples holiness) in that holding to their view of this issue lay the way of true Reformed identity or even take it as far as being on the side of true Gospel integrity. At that point there is a lot at stake on this issue.
LikeLike
E. Burns – The hubris of those who see themselves as the Keepers of Orthodoxy (those obsessed with rooting out the hole in other peoples holiness) in that holding to their view of this issue lay the way of true Reformed identity or even take it as far as being on the side of true Gospel integrity.
Erik – It’s also noteworthy that the most zealous holiness monitors inevitably seem to be the guys caught with their ample-sized pants around their ankles at the Motel 6 when the latest prostitution sting goes down.
When we know full well that our own holiness isn’t up to par we often want to obsessively focus on others’ lack of holiness.It’s easier than asking ourselves tough questions.
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@Erik
At the Motel 6, or when their female nurses come into the room.
Also, I pretty much agree with your assessment. I’ve always viewed the PCA as something akin to a de facto wing of the SBC for people who don’t want to commune with blue-collar folk. I’ve spent a fair number of years in the Carolinas. In my experience in the South, you’re far more likely to find Reformational theology preached in a conservative PCUSA church than in a PCA church.
It’s probably not an accident that many of the so-called antinomians pastor wealthier churches. The PCA has always been a very middle-class denomination. In middle-class Southern culture, the church plays a strong explicit role in articulating the moral stance of the community over which it presides. This largely grew out of the fact that there were few other social institutions that shaped the moral conduct of middle-class Southerners.
One sees nothing of the sort in upper-class Southern culture. In upper-class Southern culture, there are a myriad of interwoven social institutions that implicitly govern the moral conduct of their participants. Therefore, the church doesn’t need to take up such tasks, and can content itself with the workaday dispensation of the securements.
In that sense, it’s not that the so-called antinomians are truly antinomian. They simply see no need for the church to take on task of moral reform, especially where a number of other social institutions have taken on that task with reasonable effectiveness. For example, I know two upper-class Southern openly gay men who are both married to women. Neither are particularly pious, although both attend worship weekly at an ECUSA church. I asked one why he didn’t consider marrying someone of the same sex. he replied, furrowing his brow, “Same-sex marriage is so tacky, so middle-class.”
Ross Douthat addresses this point in his editorial “Social Liberalism as Class Warfare”.
That’s probably what allows Lutherans to be Lutheran. They operate in a socially dense culture that contains a lot of implicit cues as to how one is to govern oneself morally. People are permitted to dabble in libertinism because there’s little risk that it will ever become anything but dabbling. The so-called antinomians largely pastor churches whose members come from such subcultures (whether it’s upper-class Southern culture or Lake Wobegon).
The neo-nomians probably aren’t so lucky. They serve people who are only one or two generations away from the textile mill, who managed to pull themselves out of poverty by submitting themselves to the explicit moral cues of pietistic Protestantism.
So, yeah, it’s not really a question about theology. Rather, it’s about whether upper-class and upper-middle-class people belong in the denomination, or whether they should’t just pack their bags for the EPC or ECO.
That reminds me of an interaction I had with the pastor of a large PCA church in Winston-salem a few years ago. In his sermon, he mentioned that Karl Barth did not believe in the Resurrection. After the service, I mentioned that Barth indeed believed in the Resurrection, and that he may have confused Barth with some other theologian. He replied, “I don’t know what Karl Barth believed, and I don’t care; if you have a problem with that, you should probably look for another church.”
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Bobby, don’t forget to stir in race and Scotch-Irish vs planter culture. Southern presbyterianism is a thrill a minute. Oh, and talk to Sean about SEC frat culture’s influence on the PCA.
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The PCA is a weird place. They’re southern baptist presbyterians. I never did like southern baptists much and I don’t think they much care for presbyterians.
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Being an ACC guy myself, I’m not a fan of SEC frat culture. Besides, my French-Scottish ethnicity doesn’t lend itself too well to the growth of floppy bangs.
I was raised in a Southern Presbyterian family, but very much in the Huguenot-Scots sense. I also grew up in Indiana, my grandfathers having moved their families north to take jobs with GM. So, I did not experience Southern Presbyterian culture firsthand. But what I learned via my family was very much of the Stuart Robinson variety.
I still see vestiges of that within the more conservative Southern PCUSA churches, many of jettisoned the PCUSA for the ECO or EPC. But I see little of it in the PCA. By in large, the PCA folk in the South (excluding Florida and Atlanta) seem to derive from those my grandmother would have referred to as “cotton-patch Baptists.” I don’t much care for such people. After all, I’m among those who believes in wearing a suit and bowtie to college football games.
To be honest, I don’t think there were really any significant theological issues that actually underlay the 1973 split. It was more of a cultural divide. The neo-evangelical movement had been brewing for about 15-20 years, and a number of these second-tier PCUS churches were interested in aligning themselves with that movement. So, they left and formed a denomination that would permit them to affiliate more closely with neo-evangelicalism and with like-minded Southern Baptists.
By the way, I attended my first SEC football game ever this season. I went in SEC style…heavily inebriated and clad in nothing but sunglasses, flip-flops, a backwards baseball cap, and a pair of short-hemmed cotton shorts. I was wearing a wife-beater when I left the hotel, but it disappeared somewhere around Miller Lite #6 or #7.
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Roll Tide!
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Bobby – y the way, I attended my first SEC football game ever this season. I went in SEC style…heavily inebriated and clad in nothing but sunglasses, flip-flops, a backwards baseball cap, and a pair of short-hemmed cotton shorts. I was wearing a wife-beater when I left the hotel, but it disappeared somewhere around Miller Lite #6 or #7.
Erik – You’re lucky no one mistook you for Tom Van Dyke.
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Bobby – I asked one why he didn’t consider marrying someone of the same sex. he replied, furrowing his brow, “Same-sex marriage is so tacky, so middle-class.”
Erik – Reminds me of Fran Lebowitz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG21S11IciU&list=PLW5pX7m4B6S9po9ZyIB-Wj3VjqHHKoHOX
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Ugh. Can we just scrap the whole group? Somebody kick Jones in the head on their way out, just cuz, and we’ll start over. This time, west of the Mississippi.
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Bobby: I’ve always viewed the PCA as something akin to a de facto wing of the SBC
A fair amount of truth in that. I’ve thought myself the PCA’s majority party could simply be called the Southern Paedo-Baptist Convention (“SPBC”).
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I always wondered who the northern baptists are (Piper’s Bethel?).
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ab,
To hear some tell it, the Northern Baptists are now the Fundamentalist Baptists.
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dv, i don’t doubt it.
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That’s funny. My own PCA experience has been very “not Southern” — small church, doctrinal emphasis.
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There are some “we are able to obey” boys in the opc also.
Gaffin: We must confront a tendency, within churches of the Reformation to view the gospel and salvation in its outcome almost exclusively in terms of justification…… Sanctification is viewed as an expression of gratitude from our side for our justification and the free forgiveness of our sins, usually with the accent on the imperfection and inadequacy of such expressions of gratitude. The attitude we may have — at least this is the way it comes across — is something like, “If Jesus did that for you, died that your sins be forgiven, you should at least do this for him, try to please him?”
Gaffin: This outlook tends to devolve into moralism. I hope, too, not to be misunderstood here. Surely our gratitude is important. How could we be anything but grateful for the free forgiveness of our sins? That note of gratitude, whether or not explicit, is pervasive and unmistakable in Paul . No doubt, too, all of our efforts as believers are, at best, imperfect and flawed by our continuing to sin. BUT Paul sounds a different, much more radical note about sanctification and the good works of Christians.
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@Erik
Unless Tom’s been hitting the gym since his game-show days, I’m not sure that we would be mistaken for each other.
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Bobby,
Tom says ouch.
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I’d just like to point out that Gaffin’s caution was against moralism, not antinomianism.
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