I am starting to post over at Patheos (around 2 times a week) and have written my first entry. It was inspired in part by Tim Challies confusing (but pious) post about Canada’s prime minister:
On February 6, 2006, Stephen Harper stood before the Governor General of Canada and recited the oath of office: “I, Stephen Harper, do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trust reposed in me as Prime Minister, so help me God.”
In the very moment when he recited that oath, he received a new identity: Prime Minister of Canada. That identity includes what the oath calls powers and trust: he received authority to represent Canada, power to make decisions, and responsibility to lead the nation in ways that are best for all Canadians. As a citizen of Canada, I want my Prime Minister to know who he has become, to know what he is responsible for, to know what authority is his. I want him to take on the full identity of Prime Minister and to behave accordingly; if he will not take on that identity, he cannot do his job effectively.
I have never met the Prime Minister and have never been able to ask him, but it is my guess that taking on that new identity is difficult. Though he became Prime Minister in the moment he recited the oath, it must have taken him some time to begin confidently behaving like a Prime Minister. There must have been a period of adjustment where he reconciled himself to all of these new realities—his new abilities, his new title, and his new leadership responsibilities. It must have been strange at first to hear people call him “Mr. Prime Minister,” and to always look to him for direction.
As a Christian, you, too, have received a new identity. Just like Stephen Harper was immediately given a new identity when he recited his oath of office, you were given a new identity in the very moment when you put your faith in Christ Jesus and were justified by him. And just like the Prime Minister, it takes time and knowledge for you to grow into that new identity. All through the Christian life, you will be growing and straining to understand it in better and deeper ways, and to live as if it is true.
This strikes me as a seriously flawed understanding of human identity and its Christian aspects. What happens to Harper as a Christian? Does he give up his identity as prime minister? As chief pol in Canada does he lose his in-Christ status?
Hyphenation may be the solution.
Old Life 
Very good point, Darryl. Harper is a prime minister, just as one is a doctor or a butcher or a baker.
This is not an identity, as “Christian” putatively is. Someday Harper will not be a prime minister.
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Bravo, Darryl. I always enjoy finding and adding valuable content like your new venture at Patheos blog to my feedly reader.
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Welcome to the evangelical channel. Perhaps you should start with a protest of that…maybe there should be a channel for confessional protestants?
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Would you mind telling all your long time readers what caused you to begin blogging over at Patheos? I’m all for your engaging ideas being interacted with by more people. Maybe that’s the reason. I’ve just always found the look of the Patheos site to be so visually unappealing. Your Old Life site looks WAY better.
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All my favorite blogs are moving to Patheos.
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Is identity something like “character”?
How long now have you been “hyphenated”?
Were you born “Hyphenated”?
Does this mean that you sing or don’t sing with the patriots?
Let us swear allegiance to a land that’s free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.
God bless America,
Land that I love,
Stand beside her, and guide her
Through the night with a light from above.
As He died to make men holy,
let us kill to make men free,
While God is marching on
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Good start, but you left out that you’re known in other circles as merely, “The Dude”.
And what’s with Tom being all nice and cuddly above?
Meanwhile I’m channeling him with the Drunk Ex-Pastors.
May need to change my M.O. if he’s made some kind of New Year’s Resolution or something.
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How often poor Muether must hear “Dam#it, John – I AM THE BRAND!”
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Keeping an eye on Christian and Jason on a Journey:
Here’s my problem with Christian’s “agnosticism” (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the behavior of “Jason on a Journey”):
An Agnostic is ideally someone who is just not sure about religion or the existence of God. If you picture a balance with, say, “Christian theism” on one end and “atheism” on the other, the agnostic is in the middle, keeping an open mind, considering all their options.
Christian, however, having come out of Christian theism, is really not in the middle, he’s hedging to one side. Which side? The atheistic side. Why do I say this? Because he is taking moral stands that are opposed to Christian theism — getting drunk, sleeping with women who are not his wife, using pornography — things that Christian theism would say do not show neutrality toward God, but hatred toward God.
Now you might say, “Christian hasn’t robbed anyone” or “Christian hasn’t murdered anyone”. Probably true. What if his girlfriend got pregnant, though? Would abortion be a viable option where it was not when he was a Christian theist? If he really needed money and had an opportunity to steal, would theft be a viable option where it was not when he was a Christian theist?
The truth is, Christian has chosen a side but is not yet bold enough to fully admit it.
He does, however, borrow from Christian morality when it is convenient. For instance, denouncing racism or sexism.
My question is, if you are going to hedge, why not continue to attend worship, just in case? Why not refrain from sex outside of marriage, just in case? Why not avoid pornography, just in case? Why not avoid speaking against Christians, just in case? Why do “agnostics” always seem choose the side of the scale that they do? Is it because they are really not neutral towards God but actually hate Him and are not yet ready to admit it?
Now to Jason on a Journey. If much is still in flux for Jason, why not err on the side of charity toward Calvary Chapel? Toward evangelicals? Toward Presbyterians? Toward Christian piety? Why err on the side of being a libertine and speaking freely with no filter about things many consider sacred?
You guys think you’re just playing around, but you’re not. You’re revealing things, week-by-week, about the state of your souls.
As long as you’re still alive there’s time to change course, though. This is the grace of God in action. Who we are now is not who we have to be forever.
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Erik Charter
Posted January 19, 2015 at 8:51 pm | Permalink
Good start, but you left out that you’re known in other circles as merely, “The Dude”.
And what’s with Tom being all nice and cuddly above?
Meanwhile I’m channeling him with the Drunk Ex-Pastors.
May need to change my M.O. if he’s made some kind of New Year’s Resolution or something.
I expect Patheos Darryl to be a horse of quite a different color. And his comments section as well.
There will be witnesses.
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Tom,
If you show up and behave the self-restraint might actually be worth it.
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Tom,
Have you sobered up since accusing my wife of adultery?
What in the world was that outburst about?
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CW, speaking of John, in case you haven’t read, this is good:
Or, to paraphrase: My church is pretty cool, yo.
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Some sins are easy to admit to because they no longer tempt you.
Other sins, the kind that lead to others that replace those that no longer tempt you, are hard to admit to. They’re core and they don’t go away.
Calvin said that the sin of Adam and Eve was unbelief. You can see how Eve could fall away, she’s a secondary creation. But Adam’s falling away has a banality to it that’s hard to understand, given the relationship that he had with God.
To admit to it, deep down, I mean, can lessen its power over you. Admitting it doesn’t immediately enliven faith again but it forces you to lay down your arms against God and that keeps you from joining a cult against Him.
There are many people in league with others against God for one reason or another but IMO there are very few real atheists in the world.
It’s something along the lines of Koestler when he said that most people who were revolutionaries were trying to make social restitution for “an early attempt to blind their baby brother.”
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Erik Charter
Posted January 19, 2015 at 10:03 pm | Permalink
Tom,
Have you sobered up since accusing my wife of adultery?
What in the world was that outburst about?
I continually underoverestimate the Calvinist sense of humor. Y’all make the Muslims look like Bill Maher.
If any offense was taken, none was ever intended. To put up with you, your missus is surely a saint, her salvation assured.
Best of luck to Patheos Darryl. I imagine the “Jason and the Callers” snark will be missing from his act, the yapping at Bryan Cross and the Called to Communion blog. Which is a shame because that’s the most amusing part of Old Life, the Reformed attacks on Catholicism.
I’m betting Darryl’s going with the self-proclaimed “conservative” attacking Republicans act. The Left-Liberal establishment sucks that spit up, like how Pat Buchanan was on MSNBC.
Now, OPC Reformed theology vs. Catholicism, I’m not sure you want to go there, Darryl, make a spectacle of yourself and your religion, you vs. Bryan Cross. Old Life is Pearl Harbor. At Patheos it might be more like Midway, where the other side shoots back.
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Erik,
I haven’t been listening to any of the DXP podcasts. You seem honestly concerned, but how do you know any of that talk is true?
“As long as you’re still alive there’s time to change course, though. This is the grace of God in action. Who we are now is not who we have to be forever. ”
Lovely( and true).
“Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There’s still time to change the road you’re on.”
But it’s true for all of us. Earthy life is a probationary period for us all.
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Mark,
I want to be like Pete Enns.
I really didn’t give it much thought except to maintain OL as a separate site. Over at Patheos I may be a little more like contemporary Horton.
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Katy,
I am NOT moving. Patheos is simply another outlet.
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McMark, I’ve known since a kid that this world is not my home. That outlook seems to breed hyphenation.
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ec, but at home I’m known as “Donny.”
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Susan, Tom needs some of what you’re smoking.
Funny Tom, no Bataan, Gallipoli, Somme, or Antietam references? Try harder. Your sincerity level reminds me of Tokyo Rose.
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ec, why won’t Jason take on CtC?
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Great to see some more orthodoxy over at Patheos to interrupt their “sign up for our email list” pop-ups.
Bolz-Weber and Enns are thrilled, I’m sure.
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Being pretty sure that Sue doesn’t do irony, please note, all, that she just seriously quoted a Led Zep song. What about all those mortal sins and stuff? Is Jason really in for it in purgatory? Who are Susan, Francis, and Chortles to judge? Protesting minds want to know.
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Erik,
A number of my colleagues who identify as agnostic would balk at your definition. They would say that they are quite sure that it is impossible to know if God exists or not. It is not a way-station on the way to atheism, but rather a commitment to a form of positivism. Essentially, if you can’t know whether there is a God, his existence doesn’t matter (especially for ethical decision making). They would say (and often do) that they have considered the case for God and found it wanting – thus they are no more open to Christian theism than they are Norse polytheism.
I find that tragic, but it is different from the person who claims to be able to make a positive case against the existence of God.
Lots of Christian theists seem to have no problem not attending to worship, having sex outside of marriage, or viewing pornography – avoiding these things is really hard. If you’re drawn to such things (as lots of people are), given our culture, I would say impossible.
Yes. I would say that they are enemies of God and cowards. But I would put a lot of MTD types in the same category. I think Nietzsche recognized this. However, I think I prefer to be surrounding by lost cowards than out and proud haters of God. Maybe that says something about my own cowardice…
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And..
?
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sdb,
Keep in mind the context in which Christian is operating – raised in the church, former pastor. He knows what he is doing.
D.G.,
Jason would say he’s just screwing around. His wife must be so amused, being that he’s pushing 40. She’s probably hoping he grows up sometime between now and when he starts drawing social security.
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Tom,
The fact that you think jokes about wives and adultery are funny says a lot more about you than me.
You need Jesus.
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Susan, do you wish DXP’s success in promoting atheism?
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Let’s stay with Susan’s idiom here. It may just me that she has a “Whole Lotta (more, infused) Love” than we do.
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*be* — sorry, it’s been a long time since I rock and rolled.
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Jason really doesn’t like Presbyterians in spite of his statements to the contrary:
Jason,
You really need to drop the “I like Presbyterians” schtick. You really don’t. I don’t entirely blame you, as you’ve been mostly at odds with most of them for 2 years now, but you just don’t. You’re hostile towards them and to Reformed theology and it comes through in your comments all the time. Intellectual honesty is a critical part of you arriving somewhere that you should want to end up on your journey and part of that is admitting that you really don’t like Presbyterians at this point in your life.
Calvary Chapel is further back in your rear view mirror so you may be remembering more of the good times and forgetting the bad, but you’re not there yet with Reformed Protestants.
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CW, Susan has earned a kool (aid her in her journey? We oldlifers cannot) nickname around these parts. We should advise her to be careful to promote those things she hasmt yet fully grasped (like promoting a podcast has never listened to, simply b/c one guy is a Cath).
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On the contrary. That’s exactly where we should go. If you were Catholic, you would understand why.
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JAS, maybe I need to tatt up?
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ec, The Callers seem too earnest (not to mention logical) to just — ahem — screw around.
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Onto DEP #26 (sigh…) – Recorded awhile back so that they would have something to release while they were on the cruise.
Jason & Christian are discussing the Bible.
Bart Ehrman is apparently Christian’s resident expert that he relies on for distrusting Scripture.
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D.G. – The Callers seem too earnest (not to mention logical) to just — ahem — screw around.
Erik – That’s why “Jason & the Callers” is a misnomer. It’s “Bryan & the Callers”.
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Interesting that Jason is defending Scripture without resorting to an appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
Christian is challenging Jason to read Ehrman. Uh-oh.
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“All the religions we have are man’s attempt to describe the indescribable.” – Christian
Was that from John Lennon’s Yoko One phase?
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Jason & Christian are just gods to a certain type of woman: 35, divorced, 30 lbs. overweight, liberal Christian or former Christian, really ticked off at that lout of an ex-husband. Tell me it’s not true.
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Now they’re back on their moral high horses talking about race and “rape culture”. It was boring the first time, now it’s positively sleep inducing. Zzzzzzzz……
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White, male, middle-aged, liberal Jason is the self-appointed defender of the woman, the minority, the gay, the transgendered, etc.
When he’s not busy selling cars, anyway.
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Jason reports that at Westminster West the Korean guys kicked the white guys asses at Ping Pong.
Maybe the only sports reference the DEP’s have ever made.
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This is like a free online Sensitivity Training Course. If I wanted to mail in a check, who would I make it out to? Love Middle-Aged, White SoCal guys who can explain the plight of the minority to me…
They’re running out of original material and starting to repeat themselves.
#OldMen
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Old Life & Called to Communion reference at 57 minutes in.
Discussion of Jason’s trophy status at CTC and his “downfall” now that he is hosting DEP.
They mention my name and say they like me. That may have changed since this was recorded awhile back.
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They’re starting to formulate plans for a DEP cruise.
Imagine if they’re on the same ship as R.C.
Christian’s ex-wife, Elizabeth, lives in the same house as Christian, two floors above. They’re great friends.
O.K.
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“It was a horrible marriage, but it was not a horrible divorce.”
No word on what she thought about Christian & Jason’s international travels together.
Both are no longer Christians. She’s a Tarot card reader now.
#Trainwreck
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Jason & The Mrs. don’t talk about his conversion much.
Because religion is so peripheral to a marriage…
Pray for the Mrs.
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Don’t tase me, bro, for this, but send them to lib protestantism:
And watch them squirm, regarding what they said at 57 minutes.
And maybe leave the dxp comments on a caller thread (and the listening to the true fans, like Susan?). Or not, whatevs, Erik. Always appreciate your services in this regard, Bergoglio and I, who are we to judge, yo?
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New DEP theme song, appropriate to J&C’s level of intimacy:
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Jason describes arguing for a Catholic position “as devil’s advocate” while out to eat at PCA GA in Memphis “and totally winning”.
May reveal more about the acuity of the average PCA minister than the superiority of the Catholic paradigm (or of Jason).
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Jason explains (yet again) that his desire for riches is virtuous, while the desire for riches by others is less so. (Yawn…)
I’m going to have to start charging for these recaps. If the DEP’s are going to solicit “donations” I should be able to as well.
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He references a figure that is excessive that people shouldn’t need to make in order to live that is exactly what I make.
#GreedyCapitalist
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DGH,
A tear drop underneath the eye should be sufficient.
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They both romanticize poverty and the slacker lifestyle. They need to go hang with Yeazel for awhile and see how the other half really lives.
Jason’s ideal is 50 poor Mexicans getting together for a birthday party. I work with several Mexicans. Poverty is not a willing choice for them. They want to work hard and improve their lot in life just like everyone else.
#Paternalism
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I like what kent said, and it may have pertinence to JATC:
That’s all I got, Erik. Carry on.
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Andrew and CW,
After Erik first mentioned it here at OLTS, I listened to part of *one* podcast. I was mostly interested in hearing about some good news for the Stellman family. What I did hear, I found funny. I didn’t know that Christian was now agnostic or that he was divorced, but those things wouldn’t influence whether or not I listen in, or contribute to the podcasts.
I turned off the podcast as soon as Jason dropped the F-word because there were children near me. Because I didn’t know any of the true things in their lives( beside Jason being Catholic), I didn’t know if the whole thing is purposely enigmatic for effect. They have a friendship dynamic that hard for me too suss. A lot of their material went past me because I felt like I “had to be there” to get it, so I didn’t continue to listen.
The reason I wondered if the
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I understand that you feel more at home with the Lutherans who think they can lose the eternal life (they once had )than with the Baptists who want to talk about this experience they had that one time when they got this tattoo….
But are you “at home with”
Let us swear allegiance to a land that’s free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.
God bless America,
Land that I love,
Stand beside her, and guide her
Through the night with a light from above.
As He died to make men holy,
let us kill to make men free,
While God is marching on
If you can’t be at home with that kind of stable worship community, then one side of your hyphen is not ever going to be as “balanced” as you might want it to be…
Carl Truman is both a Presbyterian and an evangelical (when he wants to be)
but he’s not yet American, I don’t think
it sounds like you have another opportunity to decide who you want to be…
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Christian – Erik,
it amuses me that you think I care in any way what Bryan Cross (or you) think of my responses. As usual, you’re not paying attention very well.
Erik – Christian,
You need to care what Bryan Cross thinks and your not caring what Bryan Cross thinks in no way refutes anything that Bryan Cross or “we” have said.
Jason will get that.
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This looks like a communication breakdown, but it’s been a long time since I rock and rolled. We could talk about love but it’s gonna take a whole lotta love. I’m gonna leave from the land of the ice & snow and pack my bag for the misty mountain – over the hill where the spirit flies. Yup, me and my black dog are going to the houses of the holy.
Erik, thanks for listening to Jason so I don’t have to. Actually I wouldn’t anyway, but it’s nice to know I have a win of omission.
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Muddy,
Your Zeppelin medley is funny.
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MG,
I listen so absolutely no one who isn’t female, 35, divorced, 30 lbs. overweight, liberal Christian or former Christian, and really ticked off at that lout of an ex-husband, won’t have to. That’s 90% of their audience.
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Erik, that reminds me of my first encounter with CD-Host in 2012. As I was exploring these internet blog chatrooms, he said the statistics showed that by far the early days of internet chatroom traffic was inundated with disgruntled mormon wives seeking answer from protestant wives and others as to why their marriages are so unhappy. Something like that, if CD is around, he can clear it up.
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Jason did tell me at bilbo’s blog back in 2012 that he surfs, and that’s why he’s not into golf. Though I have begun to question his integrity in this regard..Christian would know, certainly.
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JAS, that’s easy. I can squirt with the best.
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mcMark, I love God Bless America when Kate Smith sings it before the Flyers beat up the Penguins.
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Caller Tom comes to Jason & Christian’s aid:
Tom Riello
January 20, 2015 at 2:09 PM
Dear Erik,
I have no dog in the fight to defend Christian and Jason, they seem pretty capable of handling themselves. But as one who does listen to the podcast and enjoys their banter about life, culture, politics, and religion, I am not sure as to what gets you so “juiced up”. You seem, as Jason says, quite obsessed about them to the point of creepiness. I don’t know if you think this plays well to the Old Life crowd and thus, you throw these rabbit punches for the “amen” corner or if you really are this consumed by their every word. It is hard to tell what in fact is motivating you. I hope for your sake that you are just playing a role rather than this being representative of who you really are. Regardless the reason, Erik, it reflects poorly on you, and I am confident that you don’t really want that to be the case. Anyway, those are my two cents on the matter.
Erik – Tom,
Someone from Called to Communion talking about creepiness? Oh my.
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@EC Good point at about Christian’s upbringing.
Thank you! I presume you are the 10%?
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Christian,
Now that Jason has called his Called to Communion buddies in for support you had better watch out. There will be no stopping them until you’ve bowed the knee to the Pope. I can see your initiation ceremony now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ
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sdb,
Yeah, the other 10% are male stalkers with various and sundry motives.
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Erik, maybe try leaving less comments over there, it will help avoid the creepiness charge. Or not, and wait till they block you, I guess..
And consider Machen:
Andrew,
(First letting the irony sink in……)
This is an interaction on par with the Baylys. You badger them until you find out who blinks first.
No concern at all about being blocked from sites like those.
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Not sure what you mean by Irony, but we do have a Xtian witness among the pagan (Christian K).
Don’t let me stop you, Erik.
Peace.
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I think Erik is saying you remind him of Calvin in a lot of ways….just not the reformer.
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2014/01/17
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Stephen, I like that, let’s go with your version of what transpired here. Thanks.
And one good comic strip deserves another.
Happy new year, friend.
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“Stephen, I like that, let’s go with your version of what transpired here. Thanks.”
Andrew – What’s the other version?
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*What other version?
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Dudes, let’s everyone chill for a second.
Stephen and Michael certainly need to find twitter, there’s lots to chat about. Version control, good podcasts, all sorts of things. I love how new people keep popping up in these threads. It’s making for an exciting Wednesday.
Do you golf, Michael?
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