Christians, Mormons, Muslims, and Jews worried about the spread of moral relativism in the United States should be encouraged by the sanctions against Penn State imposed this morning by the NCAA (which include vacating all of Joe Paterno’s victories between 1998 and 2011). Granted, Americans show no consensus on gay marriage or abortion, but with slavery and racism now child molestation also is settled. Actually, instead of being relativistic, Americans are morally rigid about most matters. Even pro-choice advocates are emphatic about the moral good of a woman’s right to choose, as well as the immorality of the pro-life position. The problem in the United States is not a lack of morality. It is that most every issue comes in either black or white. This means that a lack of moral consensus among Americans is to put it mildly, contested.
What is less clear is whether Americans are capable of distinguishing among the depravity of various vices the way, say, the Shorter Catechism talks about some transgressions of the law being more heinous in the sight of God than others. The case of Joe Paterno is proof. The overwhelming condemnation of the recently deceased coach would tempt a visitor from Mars to think that Paterno himself had molested the boys who came through Penn State’s football facility. But covering up a felony is not the same level of offense as committing a felony. Just ask Chuck Colson and Richard Nixon.
The laws of Indiana, the site of NCAA headquarters, may be instructive here (even though they played no role in Mark Emmert’s decision to punish Penn State and the reputation of Joe Paterno. Child molestation is a Class A felony in Indiana and is punishable by a sentence of a minimum of six years in prison (according to a 2000 summary). Perjury, on the other hand, is a Class D felony in Indiana and brings with it up to ten months in prison and a possible fine of $10,000. It is fairly clear that Paterno did not commit child molestation. The worst that he did was to lie before the Grand Jury, a difference between a Class A and Class D felony (it would seem to this legally challenged observer). If his offense was simply not reporting Sandusky, Indiana law classifies this as a Class B misdemeanor, which could bring a fine of $1,000 and a prison sentence of up to 180 days.
But this is all based on Indiana law, the jurisdiction where Mark Emmert and his colleagues work. According to one story from last fall, Pennsylvania has no law requiring persons to report child abuse.
What this suggests is that the NCAA is a lot harder on crime than the states themselves which have law enforcement officers with real guns and facilities with real bars and really sharp barbed wire. That may be a good thing, though I can’t imagine Emmert taking away JoePa’s wins if the coach were still alive. (The courage of the NCAA only goes so far.) But it does confirm my impression, after several viewings of The Wire, that justice mediated the state is more forgiving than justice executed outside the law. For anyone who challenged Avon or Marlo, eliminating the challenger’s existence was the only way to maintain order. But inside the agencies of the police, public school teachers, city administration, or journalism, if you violated procedures or lied to bosses, you got a reassignment, a demotion, or at worst lost your job. But unlike Barksdale’s lieutenants who cheated their boss, if you lied to the city editor of the Sunpapers about your source, you lived to see another day.
After today’s actions, the NCAA appears to exhibit a form of justice much closer to drug dealers than to civil authorities. Unfortunately for Paterno, he is not alive to see a day on his calendar that includes a visit to Emmert’s office in Indianapolis.
Old Life 
I see that my heartfelt comment #51? @ “Silence is Golden” was just a hair too early to hit Darryl’s very latest post. I had thought that he might reduce his OLT offerings to weekly. (Pretty big space between “Mark Emmert ….” and ” “Silence is Golden”). Since I have not made any comment in quite a while, I hope all the guys will read my contribution this AM. Love, Old Bob
LikeLike
D.G. Hart: But it does confirm my impression, after several viewings of The Wire, that justice mediated the state is more forgiving than justice executed outside the law. For anyone who challenged Avon or Marlo, eliminating the challenger’s existence was the only way to maintain order… After today’s actions, the NCAA appears to exhibit a form of justice much closer to drug dealers than to civil authorities.
RS: Or to put it more bluntly, as I think in accordance with what you really meant, justice was ignored on the one hand and utterly trampled upon on the other hand. How is it just for one man’s criminal acts (Sandusky) to end up with thousands and thousands of people punished for it? How is it just for Paterno to be treated this way based on one report of one man? How is it just to take away the wins of whole teams for 14 years for this? How is it just for a non-governmental agency (that at least is ostensibly supposed to dispense justice) to take away scholarships and fine people 60 million dollars for a non-football crime? Justice has gone begging in our streets.
LikeLike
Difficult to take the NCAA seriously on just about anything, particularly as it concerns morality plays and revenue. Maybe the IOC is more vacuous. Has anybody ever looked at how the SEC views the black athlete?! Come on now NCAA, when do you do more than pick low-hanging fruit and even then arbitrarily.
LikeLike
Darryl, I don’t think the american public means it when they decry child sexual molestation. It’s probably the most under reported felony going, and as long as it’s out in the ether, people like to armchair QB the issue When it actually intrudes upon their life, then it tends to die the death of a thousand qualifications.
LikeLike
Culture warriors who are Penn State fans must be terribly conflicted right now.
These sanctions are akin to sanctioning all the Colorado killer’s family, friends, and employers since 1998, and somehow deleting all their accomplishments since then. But, wait, no, the NCAA sanctions are worse because there is actually a high level of certainty that the Colorado killer commited a crime.
This is not surprising coming from the NCAA. They really need to dissolve it and use a new governing body.
LikeLike
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy
LikeLike
Rick Reilly “Good and decent men don’t do what Paterno did. Good and decent men protect kids, not rapists. And to think Paterno comes from “father” in Italian.”
Sean: This is simply not true. Almost to a case the predator is believed and protected and the child is marginalized. Unless you’ve got video, this always works this way and even then you can’t get children to testify against adults. Almost never. Good and decent men, won’t follow up on allegations without a ‘smoking gun’ they just won’t do it. Predators are often in positions of authority; coaches, teachers, cops, clergy etc… Which gives them both access and cover. These cases are incredibly difficult to prosecute much less get the behavior stopped. I’m glad it’s getting attention but I haven’t heard a single credible source on the analysis. This is all so much grandstanding and chest thumping. Not to mention INCREDIBLE hypocrisy.
LikeLike
And then there is Mike Krzyzewski on JoePa. Granted, he may change his tune now after the threat of Mike Emmert. But this historic Tar Heel fan may actually root a little for the Blue Devils (that is, if he pays the NCAA any attention).
LikeLike
Having said all that, Joe Pa and the rest of PSU admin, to the extent they did cover up and cover for Sandusky deserve to be removed and should feel ashamed. But, the idea that there are all these people who would’ve handled it differently, and ‘good men’ don’t behave this way is just BS. If you’ve never dealt with this before, with someone you actually know, you honestly can’t get your head around the idea. It takes the best of men/women often YEARS before they even can fathom it, much less BELIEVE that their friend or someone they know, behaved in so grotesque a manner. Now, after you’ve been through this a few times then you learn how to put the pieces together and what are the ‘tip-offs’. For Novices, non-predators or non-victims, it doesn’t even register most of the time.
LikeLike
Richard: http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy
RS: The media demonstrating once again that it has a hard time doing analysis very well. The Freeh report is not as open and shut as the media is making it out to be. The media needs to be reminded that an accusation is only an accusation until there is solid evidence to show guilt. Until there is solid evidence, those who make false accusations (or accusations that cannot be backed with solid evidence) one is liable in civil court. Paterno did tell his boss and the police knew about it and they determined that there was not enough evidence to file charges. One cannot convict Paterno and other people of things that are much more clear now. They were not that clear back then. We cannot use our hindsight to determine culpability for those who did not have it at that point.
LikeLike
Inquiring minds want to know: “In addressing the possible removal of the Paterno name from the library the family helped to fund, one reader — Frank — asked whether the university would also be returning the money it received from the Paternos. After all, if the Paterno name is besmirched and to be sent down the memory hole, wouldn’t the money also be tainted? Shouldn’t Penn State act out of principle and refuse to benefit, monetarily, by keeping some of the earnings this man received during this fourteen year period?” from Butler Shaffer on the LRC blog.
LikeLike
Tar Heel fan? I knew you were a sinner, but I didn’t know it was that bad. Repeat after Dean Smith— we don’t play freshmen, not unless we really really need to.
I do agree with old Roy—every loss is his fault. And the wins, I wonder who gets the credit there?
LikeLike
As a native Pennslyvanian who never did higher education in his home state, I have alway held ambivalent views of Penn State University. I have never desired to go to a game in Happy Valley, though I have been tempted to visit the creamery in State College.
I, though, am sizzling angry over the NCAA sanctions. The police in 1998 decided not to pursure Jerry Sandusky and the allegations in 2001 were passed on by Mr. Paterno to his superiors. For the NCAA to use their charter to extort 60 million dollars in fines, to block bowl bids for four years, to suspend the majority of scholarships, and to change history and vacate the team’s wins from 1998 on is not justice of any sort. Coach Paterno had the highest graduation rates, benched underachieving academic students, and donated over 4 million dollars to the school for their library. He was a man, while not flawless and admitting in hindsight that he should have done more, has achieved a stellar reputation as a coach and as a human being. Now dead, it is a shame that he cannot face his accusers. Now dead, those jealous and vindicative of Paterno are attacking his true legacy.
While I certainly think that serious criminal and civil penalties should happen to Penn State in a court of law, I would almost find it laughable that the NCAA feels that a non-football matter is their domain. What legitimacy and relevancy are they striving for in their case against Penn State? What obvious girdiron issues are they neglecting or failing to follow up to look tough against Penn State? For me, this is a very sad day.
LikeLike
If anyone is interested, you can read the Freeh report for no charge at http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-freeh-report-sandusky-penn-state-20120712-pdf,0,3268802.htmlpage
While there are many points of interest in the report, pages 106-107 gives an insight that one would think might resonate with those who are so quick to blast Paterno and a few others at Penn State. Some members of the Athletic Department asked the attorney who represented Penn State if they could restrict Sandusky’s access to athletic facilities. The attorney informed them that because of Sandusky’s emeritus status and the fact that he had not been charged with a crime his access could not be limited without the University being sued. It appeared that they (members of the Athletic Department) were trying to do something, but because of the laws they couldn’t do it. Now they are blasted for not doing what they wanted to but were told that they couldn’t. The report has many words but virtually nothing regarding criminal conduct of anyone but Sandusky if one keeps in mind the words of the lawyer (from just above) and the fact that these men did not have the benefit of hindsight.
LikeLike
Scott E. Graybill: , though, am sizzling angry over the NCAA sanctions. The police in 1998 decided not to pursure Jerry Sandusky and the allegations in 2001 were passed on by Mr. Paterno to his superiors. For the NCAA to use their charter to extort 60 million dollars in fines, to block bowl bids for four years, to suspend the majority of scholarships, and to change history and vacate the team’s wins from 1998 on is not justice of any sort.
RS: Amen.
Scott: I would almost find it laughable that the NCAA feels that a non-football matter is their domain. What legitimacy and relevancy are they striving for in their case against Penn State? What obvious girdiron issues are they neglecting or failing to follow up to look tough against Penn State?
RS: Amen.
LikeLike
I picked up seasons 2-5 of “The Wire” at a garage sale recently. I’ve got season 1 checked out from the library and am ready to roll.
Part of the reason the state “goes easy” on certain crimes is they realize that it costs money to lock people up. The sanctions that the NCAA put on Penn State don’t cost the NCAA anything.
I agree with you that Penn State is an easier target now that Paterno is dead. I don’t personally have a problem with the severity of the punishment as I think any responsible adult who knew Sandusky was abusing kids should have hired a lawyer, gone to the police, and had their lawyer document that they had turned him in. Way too much looking the other way by men who should have known better while kids were being abused.
LikeLike
An observation my wife made, which I think is true, is that people from Paterno’s generation had a different way of dealing with these things than we do. Not a right way, but a different way. I have heard stories of people from my grandparents & great grandparents generation that confirm that sodomy, molestation, fornication, and adultery are nothing new. In almost every case I’ve heard of things were just kind of ignored, often times to the detriment of those who suffered. It makes you realize that when people talk about the “good old days” of moral America they are mostly full of crap.
LikeLike
“I don’t personally have a problem with the severity of the punishment as I think any responsible adult who knew Sandusky was abusing kids should have hired a lawyer, gone to the police, and had their lawyer document that they had turned him in.”
Erik, what is the relationship between this sin of omission and the sanctions that have been handed down? It’s symbolic and arbitrary moralism at work. Many are punished who don’t have the slightest connection to the sin, and there isn’t even a credible deterrent argument (Report molestation or face sanctions? Really?). How is this just? It would be really simple if supporting the NCAA sanctions is pro-purity and being against them is pro-molestation, but if that’s the case then lets make sports talk show guys our arbiters of morality and justice.
LikeLike
Erik, now minimal moral decency includes spending money on a lawyer?
LikeLike
I don’t personally have a problem with the severity of the punishment as I think any responsible adult who knew Sandusky was abusing kids should have hired a lawyer, gone to the police, and had their lawyer document that they had turned him in. Way too much looking the other way by men who should have known better while kids were being abused.
1. Who is being punished by the NCAA? It is not the people being accused. Is that just? Since Penn State is evidently being held to account by a higher power than they are, I think the NCAA should be punished for not stopping this. Let us go up the ladder in that direction.
2. According to the Freeh report, they were speaking to a lawyer about these things.
3. They did go to the police and the DA refused to file charges because of lack of evidence.
4. Did they know that Sandusky was in fact abusing kids? Sure the signs were there, but they had no real evidence of sexual crimes. We have to go by what they knew back then rather than what we know now.
5. How did they look the other way? They went to the police the first time, though they had no evidence of sexual crimes. They did not think they had evidence the second time. When they talked to the lawyer about keeping him out of the athletic buildings, they were told that they could be sued if they did that. Remember, we are looking at things with information that they did not have at that point and time.
LikeLike
2002: Penn State assistant Mike McQueary told Penn State officials that he witnessed Sandusky having sexual contact with a young boy in the school showers.
2009: An investigation by the Pennsylvania attorney general begins once a boy had told authorities that Sandusky had inappropriately touched him during a four-year period.
How many more boys were abused between 2002 and 2009. 2002 is when responsible people within the football program and the administration should have gone all-out to put a stop to this. I think McQueary saw Sandusky sodomizing a boy, didn’t he?
The reason I say they should have gone to the police with a lawyer is not to protect themselves, but so the police would realize that the complaint was on the record and so they couldn’t just look the other way. When lawyers are involved people pay more attention when they just go on their own.
Civil authorities have the power to file charges against these men if the evidence supports it. The NCAA has the power to punish the Penn State football program down and they are using that power. If Penn State doesn’t like it, don’t play NCAA football. Just have an intramural program.
If Paterno is going to make all of the money he made and get all of the glory he got, then he deserves the shame he received when all of this went on under his watch. That’s the consequence of being a man and a leader.
LikeLike
If you Reformed men are going to be consistent I will await your defense of the Catholic Bishops who covered up for pedophile priests…
LikeLike
“If you Reformed men are going to be consistent I will await your defense of the Catholic Bishops who covered up for pedophile priests…”
All appropriate criminal sanctions should be applied in both cases. But the NCAA punishes people with no guilt. You’re just thinking about bad acts. Now think about justice.
LikeLike
I think the point of the punishment is that the University can not just go on with business as usual, making millions and millions of dollars playing football, as if nothing happened. Players who are there are free to transfer elsewhere with no restrictions. Coaches who are there have either come on after the scandal erupted (they should have been aware that this is coming) or were there when Paterno was the coach. It is too bad that they are caught up in this if they had no knowledge of the scandal, but when you hook your wagon to a leader you rise or fall with him. Ask anyone in the business world about that. Life will go on for everyone, but there will be some justice in the fact that it will go on with Penn State going 3-9 for the next decade vs. going 12-1 and playing in a New Years Day Bowl game. Sandusky’s victims may be able to smile about that.
LikeLike
Eric, what is your principle of justice? “Tooth for tooth” indicates a proportion between misdeed and sanction. Then it is taken to be a good thing when “in those days they shall no longer say:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ But everyone shall die for his own iniquity.” I don’t see either principle in your thinking.
And please, please, connect the dots between the sin and being reduced to a lower-tier Big Ten football team. Paterno is dead and Sandusky will be in prison for the rest of his days. But, somehow, I guess the world is safer from child molestation if a trip to Happy Valley is a easy “W.”
LikeLike
Erik,
How about the NCAA’s culpability due to the ineptitude of their heirarchy, the inherent conflict of interest in how they are staffed, the arbitrarines in how, when and where they execute sanctions, the ‘piling on’ of an situation already adjudicated by the proper authorities, their incompetence to render judgement on a situation already dealt with by those same, properly trained and duly elected authorities. What’s the NCAA’s training in dealing with child sexual abuse? Do they issue a handbook on the how’s, when, where and why’s and offer training in oversight and detection? The NCAA is a ‘political’ institution who are capitulating to populist pressure on the issue, a pressure largely driven by people who don’t have a clue about how to handle this situation and grossly overestimate both their own courage and moral fortitude should they find themselves in the fray. Nine out of Ten people posting, talking and otherwise beating their breast over what happened and how they would’ve done more than Paterno or McQueary are liars or simply naive. In fact, the farther you get away from those institutions that have proper jurisdiction over the matter, the less ‘appropriate’ much less ‘heroic’ the actions taken would’ve been. That’s not conjecture, those are the facts. The NCAA is grandstanding, and doing what political animals do, pander to their constituents. College Football is big business, and they can’t AFFORD to be seen as being impotent in the situation. The reality is, that the emperor has no clothes on.
LikeLike
Erik Charter: 2002: Penn State assistant Mike McQueary told Penn State officials that he witnessed Sandusky having sexual contact with a young boy in the school showers.
RS: But what did he actually tell Paterno? Read the Freeh report and it was not clear as to what McQueary actually told Paterno.
EC: 2009: An investigation by the Pennsylvania attorney general begins once a boy had told authorities that Sandusky had inappropriately touched him during a four-year period.
RS: But this does not show that others had information of actual crimes that Sandusky committed before this.
EC: How many more boys were abused between 2002 and 2009. 2002 is when responsible people within the football program and the administration should have gone all-out to put a stop to this. I think McQueary saw Sandusky sodomizing a boy, didn’t he?
RS: But once again, it is not at all clear that McQueary communicated this to Paterno. McQueary said that he did not actually see penetration, but it appeared that something sexual was going on. The question is not what McQueary now says he thinks he saw, but what did he communicate to Paterno at the time it actually happened.
EC: The reason I say they should have gone to the police with a lawyer is not to protect themselves, but so the police would realize that the complaint was on the record and so they couldn’t just look the other way. When lawyers are involved people pay more attention when they just go on their own.
RS: They had already been to the police a few years before and the DA declined. After the event that McQueary witnessed they talked to the University lawyer. It is also not appropriate to just go around accusing people of serious crimes with no evidence.
EC: Civil authorities have the power to file charges against these men if the evidence supports it. The NCAA has the power to punish the Penn State football program down and they are using that power. If Penn State doesn’t like it, don’t play NCAA football. Just have an intramural program.
RS: In our system of “justice” one has the right to punish thousands and thousands of others for something there is no solid evidence that a few men did or did not do. The fact that the NCAA is using power to do this is not the question, but if there truly men covering things up, it goes to the President of the University. How will the University be punished? Remember, the University is supported by taxes and donations. If one man did something wrong, punish him. If two men did something wrong, punish them. The NCAA is demonstrating an utter lack of regard for justice and as such their indignation at what may have happened at Penn State is nothing more than a public relations ploy. If the NCAA wants to follow the line of power in the academic program to the top, then they would have to impose punishments on themselves.
EC: If Paterno is going to make all of the money he made and get all of the glory he got, then he deserves the shame he received when all of this went on under his watch. That’s the consequence of being a man and a leader.
RS: A man that cannot defend himself at the moment. I guess that is what is known as easy pickings. It is reprehensible to watch people beat on people who cannot defend themselves dues to physical or mental capacities, and it is also reprehensible to watch and read of men who without any real evidence are beating up on Paterno. It is not justice in the slightest.
LikeLike
Erik Charter: I think the point of the punishment is that the University can not just go on with business as usual, making millions and millions of dollars playing football, as if nothing happened.
RS: But what did the University (as a University) do that was wrong and so makes it just to have to pay millions of dollars and be punished by other sanctions?
EK: Players who are there are free to transfer elsewhere with no restrictions.
RS: You are aware that it is not a good time to transfer and it is certainly not an opportune time to be granted a scholarship by another school. They may be free in one sense, but it is not free to move.
EK: Coaches who are there have either come on after the scandal erupted (they should have been aware that this is coming) or were there when Paterno was the coach. It is too bad that they are caught up in this if they had no knowledge of the scandal, but when you hook your wagon to a leader you rise or fall with him.
RS: But remember that Paterno is dead and it is far from clear that he knew enough to make him guilty of anything other than listening to the University lawyer and not wanting to bring a lawsuit on the University.
EK: Ask anyone in the business world about that. Life will go on for everyone, but there will be some justice in the fact that it will go on with Penn State going 3-9 for the next decade vs. going 12-1 and playing in a New Years Day Bowl game. Sandusky’s victims may be able to smile about that.
RS: So Sandusky’s victims can smile that those who had nothing to do with the crime Sandusky committed are being punished and shamed? Your idea of justice appears to be warped. Lashing out at thousands and thousands of people over the crime of one man in order to make a few smile is nothing remotely connected to justice.
LikeLike
The thing that hurts me most as a Cyclone fan is that the Hawkeyes will have an easy win on their schedule. I think you guys are tying yourselves up in knots trying to defend the indefensible. I am friends with the academic advisor to the Athletic Department at a BCS University. I was playing basketball with him the day the original Sandusky story broke and he could have predicted what happened yesteday way back on that day. The reason the NCAA and colleges don’t issue “guidelines” on incidents like this is that it is obvious to even pagans that an old man doing weird stuff in the football team’s showers with young boys is not o.k. Apparently it’s only conservative Presbyterian libertarian-types who can’t figure it out.
LikeLike
Erik Charter: If you Reformed men are going to be consistent I will await your defense of the Catholic Bishops who covered up for pedophile priests…
RS: What football team and what public University is being punished for the actions of some of the Bishops who have not been found guilty but simply given heavy sanctions because of a public outcry? Jerry Sandusky is being punished, though not as he should be. What evidence do we have that Paterno and company actually tried to cover up criminal action that they knew about? Remember, they went to the police and reported it. The DA did not file charges because of lack of evidence. Did the Bishops go to the police even though there was no solid evidence for sexual crimes but simply because there was the appearance of impropriety? Members of the athletic department had a meeting with the University lawyer and wanted to keep Sandusky from using the athletic facilities. They were told that they would open the University to a lawsuit because the man had not been found guilty of a crime. What Bishops went to their superiors and tried to find ways to keep the priests from the people?
LikeLike
Erik Charter: The thing that hurts me most as a Cyclone fan is that the Hawkeyes will have an easy win on their schedule. I think you guys are tying yourselves up in knots trying to defend the indefensible. I am friends with the academic advisor to the Athletic Department at a BCS University. I was playing basketball with him the day the original Sandusky story broke and he could have predicted what happened yesteday way back on that day. The reason the NCAA and colleges don’t issue “guidelines” on incidents like this is that it is obvious to even pagans that an old man doing weird stuff in the football team’s showers with young boys is not o.k. Apparently it’s only conservative Presbyterian libertarian-types who can’t figure it out.
RS: No one is saying that this type of thing is okay. I am saying that there is virtually no real evidence that Paterno and company were involved in covering this up. Instead, they did try to deal with this at a certain level. While it is weird for Sandusky to shower with young boys, you must remember that they did go to the police with this and the DA did not file charges because it was not a crime. You must also know that there is a huge distinction and difference between saying something like this is okay and saying that what the NCAA did was unjust and in fact horribly unjust. If you are ever a bystander or slightly involved in something that appears to be a crime, one can only hope that there is not a major outcry that everybody thinks that they have to save face over and punish you to do so.
LikeLike
Richard says -“You are aware that it is not a good time to transfer and it is certainly not an opportune time to be granted a scholarship by another school. They may be free in one sense, but it is not free to move.”
You must not watch a lot of college basketball. The guys who can play will have no problem going elsewhere. I would guess every guy who is on the two-deep who want to leave will be welcomed with open arms pretty much wherever they want to go. If you can play, you can play.
ISU’s basketball team made the NCAA tournament this year with a team that was mostly all transfers.
LikeLike
Eric, now that you have confessed to being a Cyclone that explains it all. But with Sam Mack “the Knife” robbing the Burger King in Ames, Kenny Pratt running out of a Des Moines Dragons game to avoid arrest, Shady Tim Floyd, and Larry “I like a beer with the coeds” Eustachy, it’s a wonder that you don’t support the death penalty for ISU.
Anyway, the Hawkeyes have played well against Penn State. A victory against a top-tier program is cool. A victory against a hamstrung program somehow loses its luster.
If McCarney was convicted of domestic abuse while he was coach at ISU, would you have supported sanctions against the football program?
LikeLike
“Apparently it’s only conservative Presbyterian libertarian-types who can’t figure it out.”
Well Erik, then i guess that over 99% of the population is Presbyterian liberterian-types. It’s one thing to ‘figure it out’ from your armchair it’s quite another to take action in the moment. Now maybe you’re part of the 1%, so kudos to you. I’ve watched mothers, who’s only reason for living was their child, fail in this situation. I’ve seen grown, very capable men, christians, trained military even law enforcement, turn a blind eye to this situation and threaten violence should you dare to broach the subject with them, again. This is easy from the peanut gallery. This is one of the most, if not the most, difficult situation to navigate from a law enforcement perspective. People regularly fail to act in this situation. That McQueary or Paterno even did the ‘minimum’ is unusual.
LikeLike
Mikel – I think the difference between ISU and Penn State is that Sandusky’s crimes took place “within the program” (i.e. at the football’s team’s facilities) and others knew about it and didn’t go far enough to stop it. Mack & Pratt were athletes, not coaches or adminsitrators. Floyd was not “convicted” of anything to my knowledge and Eustachy was fired by the University. Penn State did nothing to anyone until the lid blew off the scandal. I think that’s why the NCAA reacted differently. If McCarney abused his wife at the ISU football facilities and others there covered up for him you might have an apples-to-apples case. I am not sure what the facts of that case were and I think he was a Hawkeye when it happened (if indeed it did).
LikeLike
Oh – And Kirk Ferentz makes $4 million a year beating 6 hamstrung programs. Embrace it…
LikeLike
Another point I would make is, why would it not be o.k. to punish the entity known as “Penn State Football” for nothing more than having a convicted pedophile defensive coordinator for a generation who abused children in the team’s showers? What is sacred about “Penn State Football” that it deserves protection? Why not let them suffer financial penalties and losing records for years? Any innocent individuals that you are concerned about can just avoid being involved with the program. Somehow the world has gotten by without Arthur Anderson, Bear Stearns, and Lehman Brothers. The people who worked for Bernie Madoff have moved on.
LikeLike
Eric, I personally don’t care a whole lot about football programs but justice (integrity in estabilishing guilt, appropriate sanctions when it is established) does interest me. The media’s consensus on the Penn State sanctions has more to do with affirming their own moral superiority than with any principles of justice. Mob moralism is not Christianity.
LikeLike
Erik Charter: Quoting Richard–”You are aware that it is not a good time to transfer and it is certainly not an opportune time to be granted a scholarship by another school. They may be free in one sense, but it is not free to move.”
EC: You must not watch a lot of college basketball. The guys who can play will have no problem going elsewhere. I would guess every guy who is on the two-deep who want to leave will be welcomed with open arms pretty much wherever they want to go. If you can play, you can play.
RS: I thought this was about a football team and football teams will be starting their pre-season workouts any day now. Nevertheless, I guess it does not matter how many people are troubled and inconvenienced by acts of severe injustice as long as some moral outrage is expressed? C’mon, that is outrageous.
EC: ISU’s basketball team made the NCAA tournament this year with a team that was mostly all transfers.
RS: But at least some of them if not most of them had been there working out with the team even a whole year before this season. It is not quite as easy walking into a new program just as football season is starting. Like I said, this who situation just screams of injustice so some can feel better that some moral outrage has been shown even though it will not punish any real offenders and will not help any of the victims.
LikeLike
Richard: by “acts of severe injustice” and “situation just screams of injustice” you must be referring to the plight of Sandusky’s victims? Your overblown rhetoric would make you a good liberal. I think you are the one whose sense of outrage is out of whack in this instance.
LikeLike
Was Israel wrong to wipe out entire peoples, women & children included, when they were taking possession of the promised land? Is the NCAA’s justice not in some ways mirroring God’s justice?
LikeLike
Erik,
You seem to think that a “confessional libertarian” has no interest in justice, but when pressed on the issues of jurisdictional authority (ie: does the NCAA have the authority to rule over these criminal matters when their charter demands that they keep a level playing field); and especially talionic justice (law of equal measure), which is foundational to 2k NL theory you balk and resort to moralistic invective. Justice requires wisdom and precision; and the principle of talionic justice would mean that the individual who commits the crime is the one who is punished, and possible accessories to the crime – beyond this no individual or group can bear the punishment for another’s crime. The talionic principle is why we don’t punish children for their parent’s crimes, or make them liable for their parents debts. BTW the way that the NCAA dispensed with due process and levied such crippling financial penalties, you can rest assured that the legal side of these sanctions have just begun, and the NCAA may find that it has overstepped it’s legal authority in the civil courts.
The only thing that the sanctions against Penn State have accomplished is to satiate the moral outrage of the mob, almost none of whom are connected to the Penn State program. These sanctions will not assuage the pain of Sandusky’s victims, or bring further healing, but they sure give aid to those who think that the university should get theirs. The people who are connected to the crimes have been punished or are dead, what is gained here? What does this do to the community economically? The university leadership could have certainly done more, but the university is comprised of more than it’s leaders, none of whom were connected to the crime but all of whom bear the brunt of the NCAA sanctions and the social stigma of the whole ordeal. So the innocent are punished to satisfy the outrage of the mob, how is that just?
LikeLike
Erick,
Really?! You’re gonna parallel the sanctioning and jurisdiction of the NCAA with theocratic Israel. I’m trying not to laugh, but has God written on the walls of the NCAA offices with His finger? Does NCAA headquarters sit atop ‘temple land’. Is their a burning bush whose fire doesn’t consume the bush, inside the president’s office? You aren’t serious right?! You just wanna yank someone’s chain here.
LikeLike
Jed – All I have time to do now is point back to my prior comment:
Another point I would make is, why would it not be o.k. to punish the entity known as “Penn State Football” for nothing more than having a convicted pedophile defensive coordinator for a generation who abused children in the team’s showers? What is sacred about “Penn State Football” that it deserves protection? Why not let them suffer financial penalties and losing records for years? Any innocent individuals that you are concerned about can just avoid being involved with the program. Somehow the world has gotten by without Arthur Anderson, Bear Stearns, and Lehman Brothers. The people who worked for Bernie Madoff have moved on.
When Forrest & Jenny got hitched Forrest had Jenny’s father’s house bulldozed to the ground. I think it made Jenny feel better…
LikeLike
“Was Israel wrong to wipe out entire peoples, women & children included, when they were taking possession of the promised land? Is the NCAA’s justice not in some ways mirroring God’s justice?”
Erik, now I hope your’e just messing with us, because if you believe this, you really need to step away from the keyboard for a few years. For making a comment this bad, we’re going to delete everything you’ve done on the internet, anull any rewards you have earned, garnish your wages for the next six years, and collect $100,000.00 from your family members. Also, we’re going to ban internet use in your neighborhood. I think that’s all but we get to increase the penalty if it would play well on talk radio.
LikeLike
But, Erik, the pushed over house didn’t do much to keep Jenny alive or undo her past. Forrest had enough money to buy that dirt farm, fix up the house and then sell it to someone wanting to make a life in Greenbow. Forrest was the man, but feeling good is way over rated (especially compared to those things).
LikeLike
I am being somewhat serious with my comment about Israel and the promised land. I realize there are huge differences (God being holy and the NCAA being – well, the NCAA…). There is a notion, however, that when heinous acts have been committed within a land God had no problem with wiping out all of the inhabitants of the land. Did every member of that group commit the heinous acts? No. Did God wipe them all out. Yes. “Penn State Football” has been the site of heinous acts. Is it only appropriate to punish the 5-10 members of Penn State Football or can a larger penalty be applied? I’m just saying the notion is not without precedent.
As a nation we also dropped two atomic bombs on Japan and many innocent non-combatants perished.
We have a long history of administering this kind of “broad justice”.
LikeLike
Forrest was a very simple man. The bulldozer just made sense to him.
LikeLike
Also – I’ve spent my whole life in a community where the football team mostly goes 3-9 and we’re doing just fine. Record enrollment this fall…
LikeLike
Erik,
That’s taking some pretty serious liberties. I’m not sure there’s any benefit to chasing this rabbit, but even as it regards the atomic bomb there seems to be an idea of proportionality as it regarded the Japanese ideas of honor, never surrender and Kamikaze tactics, that we felt compelled to convince them that we weren’t going to engage that type of war, we were just going to wipe them off the face of the earth if they didn’t capitulate, and at least a portion of the rationale was to preserve life on both sides, particularly ours. Now, how this has any relation to PSU is beyond my comprehension. Scorched earth practices are almost always decried both militarily and in personal relations and rarely necessary or celebrated.
LikeLike
Sean – I agree with you about the reasons for dropping the bomb. After we dropped it, were we attacked by another country like Japan? After Penn State faces the penalties it is facing will another coach or administrator think it is better to cover up for another pervert molesting kids in the locker room showers vs. “embarassing the program” and going to great lengths to get the guy prosecuted and away from kids?
LikeLike
Erik, I’m not sure drawing on a simpleton or God’s wrath will persuade those inclined to think or who accent God’s grace. And the take way from Hiroshima should actually be for those with power to severely limit their whacking ability, not justify scorched earth.
LikeLike
Actually I think Sean was right on with his interpretation. We needed to drop the bomb because of the Bushido ethos of most of the Japanese population at that time. I just finised listening to “Unbroken” and this certainly confirmed the decision for me. Add to that the scenes in “The Pacific” on Okinawa and I’m convinced it was a rational decision. Fighting to the last man would not have been a good thing.
LikeLike
Erik,
The analogy doesn’t work real well with PSU as Japan in WWII and the NCAA as the United States. As Forrest might say; ‘that dog won’t hunt.’ The bigger problem, is that the parallel Japan and United States in this conflict have already squared off and the situation has been decided by the rightful participants. The NCAA’s action is little more than ‘us too’. Plus, it smells like justification for action in a ‘target-rich’ environment. The NCAA bowed to political pressure to say/do ‘something’, and provide reason for their existence as well as try to give credence to the ‘need’ for what they do. They were protecting their ‘product'(college football) while also trying to give justification for their position, and this was ‘easy pickings’. Never mind the rampant ‘bought and paid for’ representation of big time conferences and college presidents at the NCAA and the obvious conflict of interest that engenders or turning a blind eye to the rationale of providing an ‘opportunity’ for the unqualified collegiate athlete who can’t do work beyond remedial reading, writing and ‘rithmetic’ . How about the racial overtones in the recruiting of black athletes in some place like the SEC. How about administrations who shirk their academic responsibilities as regards a student and just make sure the ‘boy’ plays on saturday. Those are all issues within the NCAA’s jurisdiction and competency-charter….supposedly. All that work is really hard and necessarily involves evaluations on their competency and success or lack thereof. That’s not so much, where they want to draw attention or justify their existence. So, they piggybacked upon the work of others, declared victory with the appropriate, tsk tsk shame on you expression, rode the wave of popular sentiment and are back busy trying to figure out the next low-hanging fruit to pick that somewhat falls within their purview but won’t bring to light their actual proficiency or lack thereof, at what they are commissioned to do.
LikeLike
Erik Charter: Richard: by “acts of severe injustice” and “situation just screams of injustice” you must be referring to the plight of Sandusky’s victims? Your overblown rhetoric would make you a good liberal. I think you are the one whose sense of outrage is out of whack in this instance.
RS: No, Erik, I would not make a good liberal as that is a contradiction in terms. However, you do sound more liberal in seeming to think that Sandusky’s victims cannot get beyond what happened to them. My sense of outrage is that there is no solid or real evidence to convict Paterno on and there is no court of law and no standard of justice being used in this matter. So far you have not shown one thing that makes anyone guilty of much less a whole University or even state.
Erik Charter: Was Israel wrong to wipe out entire peoples, women & children included, when they were taking possession of the promised land? Is the NCAA’s justice not in some ways mirroring God’s justice?
RS: I know this has been answered by others, but let us remember that a perfectly just God ordered the Israelites to wipe out all those people. So it was perfect justice being carried out. The NCAA simply has no justice at all. When God ordered Israel to wipe out entire peoples, they belonged to God and as sinners deserved death. He did them no wrong at all. The NCAA cannot claim such rights on Penn State and Pennsylvania as a whole. God is a perfect judge who was present with all the crimes of the people in the lands of those that He ordered to be wiped out. The NCAA did not wait for a court of law to determine if any law had been broken but instead stepped in with a horribly unjust judgment without any real evidence. No, I don’t think that the two situations are parallel in any way.
LikeLike
Sean – Those are fair points. I don’t think I can be conviced that “Penn State Football” is worthy of my defense, however. Maybe I’m just excited that for once all of America can agree on something –“Pedophilia is bad”. Well, 99.9% of America anyway. I’m sure there are some who think Sandusky’s man-boy love is just misunderstood…Give us a generation and people will be talking about those mean right-wing theocrats who needlessly persecuted Sandusky and his employer.
LikeLike
Richard – How many pages of the 267 page Freeh report have you read?
LikeLike
“Before 1998, several staff members and football coaches regularly observed Sandusky showering with young boys in the Lasch Building. None of the individuals interviewed by the Special Investigative Counsel notified their superiors of this behavior.” (Freeh Report, page 40). How many of you get naked in front of young boys? In front of your own children? Would you be angry if an adult male was doing this with your kids and other adults knew about it and didn’t say/do anything — for a decade?
LikeLike
Erik Charter: Richard – How many pages of the 267 page Freeh report have you read?
RS: All of it minus the pages with the references.
Erik Charter: “Before 1998, several staff members and football coaches regularly observed Sandusky showering with young boys in the Lasch Building. None of the individuals interviewed by the Special Investigative Counsel notified their superiors of this behavior.” (Freeh Report, page 40). How many of you get naked in front of young boys? In front of your own children? Would you be angry if an adult male was doing this with your kids and other adults knew about it and didn’t say/do anything — for a decade?
RS: But again, does that in and of itself make it a crime? If they worked out together, it would not be totally strange to take a shower at the same time. I wouldn’t do it, but you must remember that these are showers that are made for several people to take showers at the same time. If it was a regular practice of his, perhaps people were used to it and did not think it led to sex crimes. Taking the shower was not a crime and is not a crime. You want to convict Paterno and Penn State based on odd behavior rather than criminal activity. The fact that so many people saw it sure makes it seem that he was doing this in public and not in secret. The Freeh report is clear that others were not comfortable with this, but they couldn’t do anything about it.
LikeLike
The only thing we know for sure is that if this ever makes it to the Supreme Court, Justice Roberts will be good with the $60 million fine because it could be legally construed as a “tax”…
LikeLike
Erik, does it trouble you at all that from one fairly Reformed angle, Mark Emmert did exactly what Freeh accused Paterno of doing? Acting out of self-interest. Joe acted to protect the program (so they say). Emmert acted to protect the NCAA.
LikeLike
Erik Charter: The only thing we know for sure is that if this ever makes it to the Supreme Court, Justice Roberts will be good with the $60 million fine because it could be legally construed as a “tax”…
RS: As hard as it is to agree with a Cyclone (TIC), that was a good one. A painful reminder, but still a good one.
LikeLike
D.G. – I have no doubt that Emmert is a politician who is responding to political pressure to “do something”. When Joe acted to “protect the program” young boys continued to suffer at the hands of Sandusky. I don’t see who is suffering as a result of Emmert’s actions other than Penn State.
I think the key to the whole issue (which everyone in the country seems to be debating) is, should you punish an “institution” for the acts of a few individuals? In the Penn State case it seems like the individuals involved are being dealt with. They will have their day in court and may or may not be found guilty. I would imagine Penn State as an institution will also have their day in court with the NCAA, although the powers-that-be at Penn State may decide it is politically wise to just take their lumps and move on.
When the audit team on Enron turned a blind eye to fraud the U.S. government decided to indict the whole firm and thousands of people who had nothing to do with the Enron audit lost their jobs. If a similar thing happened at another huge accounting firm the government most likely wouldn’t do it again because they need to keep at least a few large firms in business to compete against each other. Was this “fair”? – Maybe not. Did it serve a positive political purpose? Probably.
One of the criticisms those of us who favor a 2k worldview have of some of our brothers on the religious right is that they demand a level of purity in the common/political realm that we believe is not necessary to demand. I know a lot of Christians who would not vote for Mitt Romney against Barack Obama because Romney is not Ron Paul. It’s not enough for them that Romney is arguably better than Obama, They demand purity because they view their actions in the common/political realm to be as important/sacred as their role in the church/spiritual realm. They wouldn’t compromise on a decision on who to vote for any more than they would compromise on a decision of whether or not to commit adultery.
The NCAA is not a session, a consistory, a presbytery, a classis, a synod, or a general assembly. They are an imperfect political body and they act in the way a political body acts – a bit clumsily. I can live with their decision, though, because the NCAA member schools have delegated authority to them. They are protecting the NCAA, but I also think they are protecting kids because the next time kids are being abused by a coach and someone knows about it they will work harder to get the man or woman prosecuted.
LikeLike
Erik, the others hurt by the decision are — let’s see — players, coaches, fans. Maybe they deserve it. Then there are business people in Happy Valley who depend on those 8 or so games each year to turn a profit. Maybe they deserve it too because they are part of the culture that has made Penn State football such a big entity that people involved in it make bad or even wicked moral decisions.
But once you bring up the culture of Penn State football, then you have stepped in the NCAA. If it weren’t for the television contracts, the bowls, the divisions, the statistics, the championships, the hoopla that the NCAA has nurtured and perpetuates, then Penn State football doesn’t have the cultural resources to turn its program into a culture that could have created the “monster” that is JoePa.
So what Emmert did was punish one institution to preserve the NCAA’s culture. This way the NCAA could look moral even though it’s own status in higher education raises a host of issues that only those with stomachs strong enough are willing to examine. (BTW, I am not pure in this. I have for too long bought the NCAA’s product. I fed the beast.)
BTW, it’s still not clear what laws anyone at Penn State, other than Sandusky, broke. In the U.S. we believe in innocence until guilt is proved. The NCAA is not the U.S. But what investigation did they conduct? Did PSU have a chance to defend itself?
LikeLike
D.G. – I read these numbers in the Wall Street Journal yesterday – “In the university’s 2011-12 operating budget, football generated $50.6 million of the $97.4 million in total revenue for intercollegiate athletics. Total expenses amounted to $84.7 million, $10.4 million of which was on football.” Wow. How many companies are there where you can spend $10.4 million (including paying the head coach at least a million) and make $50.6 million? It’s enough to make a Chinese industrialist blush.
The NCAA based its action on the Freeh Report. The NCAA sanctions could probably be viewed as an opening offer, which could be whittled down should Penn State appeal. Penn State will evaluate an appeal politically more than they will economically.
I would conclude by saying there is room in the toolbox for blunt instruments & fine tooth combs. The NCAA is more akin to the Executive Branch or Congress – blunt instruments. The courts, where this may ultimately be decided – are the fine tooth comb.
LikeLike
A take at the Powerline Blog that I’m inclined to agree with concerning Freeh’s report as it relates to Paterno:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/07/the-case-against-joe-paterno-part-two.php
LikeLike
I went to the site that Jack Miller gave just above and I found another one as well. It think this one is devasting. For those who want only lawyers to speak on this, the guy who wrote this is a lawyer.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/07/the-case-against-joe-paterno-weak-to-non-existent-on-the-current-record.php
LikeLike
In any case, NCAA>RCC.
LikeLike
The NCAA’s treasury of victories is 112 victories lighter.
LikeLike