The Four-Fold State of Musical Appreciation

Published on by D. G. Hart

Ken Myers’ recent visit to Hillsdale College to deliver lectures on Music and the Great Tradition, has me thinking about the relationship between Christ and culture, or at least the way some Christians conceive of it. Ken persuaded me of the importance of music in the created order, why harmonic structures parallel mathematical forms, why singing is such an important part of creation (soulful and soulless) giving praise to God, and why music can have such a profound effect on listeners. He also was convincing that some forms of music are superior to others, that a predilection for some kinds of music reflects a disordered soul, and that appreciation of good music requires education and discipline. (I hear but do not know when these lectures will be available on-line.)

Where I have questions is in trying to correlate musical aesthetic with Christian truth or conviction. I wonder for instance, if we could do for the musical soul what Thomas Boston’s Four-fold State of Man did for the human soul. We might imagine humanity divided up into the following categories

1) Good Music Lovers
a) regenerate
b) unregenerate

2) Bad Music Lovers
a) regenerate
b) unregenerate

In category 1a, we have people who know and love God and also know and appreciate good music. But we can’t regard musical appreciation as a fruit of the Spirit because of category 1b — that is, people who are not saved but appreciate music even more than some of the saints. What accounts for this love of good music is not something spiritual but a natural capacity by which a person with the right training (and some natural abilities) can learn to understand the way music works and revel in its beauty and forms.

The natural aspects of musical appreciation are all the more apparent when we turn to the category of 2a — that is, the Christian who has no ear for the great musical traditions and actually regards people who celebrate good music as elitist. Here, the work of sanctification has no apparent bearing on musical appreciation. If it did, we might expect a believer to listen to more and more good music as he or she dies to self and lives to Christ. But in point of fact, no church in human history has ever countenanced musical taste as evidence of God’s grace. (And I am not saying the Ken thinks it is.) If a church were to do that, we face the uncomfortable reality of regarding Beethoven or Wagner as Christians.

As I say, Ken was not arguing for musical appreciation as a form of sanctification. He was, though, talking about what music and its place in the universe says about the human soul and its relation to the creator. Without sufficient care and theological rigor, such considerations can lead to blurring the lines between what happens in sanctification and what occurs with a well-ordered natural soul. At the end of the day, it seems to me that confessional Protestant culture vultures need to be content with Christians who don’t appreciate good music and humble around non-Christians who understand much of creation and its creator better than most believers. In 2k parlance, culture is part of the ordinances of creation and fallen humans, who bear the image of God still, participate in and enjoy culture as part of their creatureliness. Cult, however, requires more than nature; it requires a supernatural reordering of the soul which may or may not lead to good culture.

210 thoughts on “The Four-Fold State of Musical Appreciation”

  1. Would love to know how “a predilection for some kinds of music reflects a disordered soul.” You can take Good Kid, M.A.D.D. City from my cold, dead hands.

    –Protestant Jeremy

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  3. This is fascinating. Please do come back and update with linkage if/when audio is posted online, I will definitely listen.

    Could not the same kind of arguments/categorization be made about literature (shakespeare/tolkien vs disposable grocery-store bodice-rippers and crime-novels)? Or I suppose about any area of high culture vs pop culture? Does “the Ken” admit of any “superior” music among 20th century American pop/rock? Like how about narrow it down to the Beatles; sure “I wanna hold your hand” is saccharine, but is Sgt. Pepper “superior”?

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  4. I’m skeptical, but listening. I’ve known cultured academic types who have never had a Wendy’s hamburger and thought, “Well, that’s for the birds.”

    Some of the best art, in my opinion, is art that skewers high culture and those who enjoy it.

    And there is absolutely no way I am watching opera.

    Let’s apply this to movies. Do I really have to say that Kieślowski’s “Three Colors” triology is superior to the Coen’s three best films? Why?

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  7. Erik,

    You did not just go there… I am half-tempted to start a flame war with you. I loves me some NPR. Between This American Life, good classical music, and being one of the few stations out there that covers news (as opposed to the “talk radio” format), I’ll take it, liberal slant and all. Although I could do without the non-stop begging for more listener donations – isn’t that already covered by my tax dollars?

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  9. To Meyers point, I can understand where he is coming from, placing his arguments for the superiority of certain kinds of music within the ideological framework of the Great Tradition. I think that from an analytical standpoint there is an argument to be made that musical forms that master musical theory might be, according to some measures superior. However, I think the whole aesthetic realm does have an irreducible subjectivity to it that defies objective measure. For example, comparing Mahler to Dylan is like comparing apples and oranges – both are musical forms, but the intent behind both and their aesthetic reception couldn’t be different.

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  10. Jed – A few years ago when I moved I had to spend a lot of time moving boxes of books from one garage to another (they’re still sitting there). I was on an NPR kick but my enthusiasm waned once I realized how many stories involve someone whining about something in life that is not fair, how one group is supposedly taking advantage of another, how the government lacks resources, and on and on. By the time I was done I was about ready to throw a rope over a beam and swing from the rafters. Listen for a day and count the number of stories that include whining.

    Dave – I’ll mail you the burger, but it will be cold and stiff.

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  11. Darryl,

    Is the phrase, “well-ordered natural soul” something Ken came up with or is it yours or did you get it from somewhere else? I’m curious where I can read more on it. Sounds fascinating.

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  12. Rube, Ken did talk about how melodies in popular music have declined over the twentieth century. One example of a superior melody, at least one with musical interest, is Somewhere Over the Rainbow. The first two notes span an octave, with lots of jumps to follow.

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  13. Erik, you don’t have to say Kieslowski is superior. It’s a free country. But is it not possible that he could be, or that you might learn something if you tried to understand why? I think that’s partly Ken’s point.

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  14. Erik, high culture has always had to be subsidized. No problem with that. And the folks who produce the stuff for free radio are also subject to market considerations. An artist has to eat.

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  16. Erik, it may not help to know that Meyers was happily employed by NPR for a spell. But while you’re (ahem) chewing on what he has to say about music, savor this bit about hearing and reading (from an interview with ByFaith that is longer available, in which he also says that “what the church needs today is not more specialists, whether in theology or philosophy or church growth, but more well-informed generalists who are interested in understanding all of culture in order to live more faithfully in God’s world”):

    Question: It seems ironic that you often commend older perspectives and practices, but you use a very new technological format.

    Meyers: The real irony is that the spoken word is more primitive than the printed word. So this is a technology that enables the recovery of a more primitive experience. I just did an interview about this with Craig Gay, who argues that hearing is the sense that the Scriptures focus on most. It’s the word heard. So there’s a sense in which the spoken word is more fundamental to our humanity.

    In addition, the conversational format is a subtle way of challenging people to think about issues they probably wouldn’t read an article about. If they were browsing through a magazine, they might flip right by, whereas conversation can be more friendly, less off-putting.

    I remember a conversation I had with one of my subscribers, who had a kind of high-energy, inside-the-Beltway job. And she said, “I really was interested in that interview with so-and-so, but I needed the bullet points; I needed to know what were the action items.” And I said the best action item would be to emulate Mary and ponder these things in your heart. I said I have no idea what you ought to do about it, but I think if you meditate on it long enough, if you try to acquire an understanding of it over time, it will be useful.

    We tend to think we learn things so that we can take control, so we can step out and do something, rather than learning it and just living with it. But the people I know who behave really wisely are not that calculating. I think they’re kind of intuitive; they make decisions more from a kind of grounding in thoughtfulness.

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  17. Anyone who thinks “public” broadcasting is “free” evidently hasn’t endured weeks on end of fundraising events – pleading, begging, threatening listeners with the end of the world if they don’t pledge significant amounts to keep their favorite music on the airwaves. Sure, it’s subsidized to a great event, but it ain’t free.

    On the flip side, I’ve always found it ironic that some of the most conservative people – those who refuse to listen anything less than classic music – endure all of the socialist drivel that is often carried on the same station’s news and special interest programs. Even more strange is the fact that many of these public broadcasters are the only ones in the country who play jazz, blues, folk, and other off-beat styles of music such as celtic and cajun, usually at odds with the conservative crowd.

    But then switch the dial over a to run-of-the-mill commercial station and you’ll hear yell/scream, bay-at-the-moon noise frequently sung off-key, reminiscent of an expressway pile-up in slow motion. “… melodies in popular music have declined over the twentieth century …” Indeed! Winton Marsalis once said that the emergence of rap and hip/hop occurred as a direct result of the demise of band and music programs in public education, leaving students in already depressed neighborhoods with nothing left except to descend into more primitive forms.

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  18. I’m skeptical when I hear a Christian talking about “superior” music . . . usually because the argument turns on a “high culture/low culture” divide. Even when the Christian says otherwise, I have a cynical suspicion that he thinks God likes or at least approves of whatever music he argues is superior.

    Whenever a brother wants to go all high brow on me, I gently point out God chose Koine Greek (my Greek prof used to call it “Wal-Mart Greek”) as a suitable vehicle for his holy Word.

    Of course, Christianized musical snobbery can happen at any point of the spectrum . . . low brow and high brow alike. We can be just as snooty and critical when it comes to the music we don’t like as the folks who like that music are with the music we like. That can be expected, I guess. But when someone boldly proclaims “God likes my music better” or subtly implies the same (“a predeliction for some kinds of music reflects a disordered soul”?), I can’t help but cue the eye roll.

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  19. Just as a side note, since Winton Marsalis’ name has been mentioned . . . I remember hearing Marsalis tell a group of budding musicians, “there is no such thing as a wrong note” and then following that up with something like, “It’s what you do after the note that makes it good or bad.”

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  20. I get the point. I think I resist the high brow or even intellectual or pseudo-intellectual nature of the discussion. I can make similar arguments and equally religiously applied ones for physical postures in religious practices( kneeling, hands clasped, straight back versus slouch, a rested body vs fatigued, a well fed body vs malnourished, a purposeful fasting vs feasting, fit vs negligent and on and on). Not to mention mind body correlation in a ‘well ordered natural soul’.

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  21. “Amadeus” seems relative to the discussion. Why does God give great musical gifts to an ass and lesser gifts to a pious man?

    I have less problem with saying certain works are better than others within a genre than I do with saying certain genres or endeavors are inherently superior to others. Is Beethoven inherently superior to Miles Davis, or to LeBron James? Each are/were at the pinnacle of their respective art forms. You can tell me that there is no way LeBron could compose the way Beethoven could, but have you see how bad Beethoven looked trying to dunk?

    Going back to Amadeus. Mozart by all accounts was a buffoon, yet he was a musical genius. Does this not show that musical ability is a technical skill like so many others? Why is it better than computer programming, three point shooting, or being a child math prodigy?

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  23. Thanks, Darryl, for the heads-up on Ken’s lectures. I’ll be watching for them. Ken is always thoughtful, even if one differs from him. I appreciate him deeply.

    I find it rather humorous that Christians who would never think of being relativists in any of the other branches of philosophy or theology (ethics, for instance) avidly embrace aesthetic relativism and grow alarmed at perceived elitism. This seems especially to be the case with music. Even folk who would agree that one can make qualitative judgments about poetry, painting, and other arts seem to disdain doing so when it comes to music.

    One can make qualitative judgments, however, with respect to music. Indeed, there is chocolate and vanilla: de gustibus non disputandum est. But every dispute about aesthetics, about music, is not simply a matter of a difference of taste. Well, I shan’t say more about aesthetics.

    Just this: it’s the two hundreth anniversary of the births of Verdi and Wagner (not to mention Britten). Come here to Chicago, Erik, and I’ll take you to the Lyric Opera: it just might change your mind. We’ve got Die Meistersinger von Nuremberg coming up and Rigoletto (as well as a few others–Boheme with Netrebko and Calleja). I can’t wait. There’s nothing like the opera house and I wouldn’t knock it if you don’t really know what it’s about. Perhaps you do and intelligently reject it. It can be a source of immense pleasure and an incomparable musical experience. I am happy to see Jed mention Mahler, speaking of Wagner, Where would we be without him and Bruckner? Yes, there is a richness here not found elsewhere musically and no, my sentiment with respect to this is not elitist, at least insofar as that is taken to mean something bad.

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  24. Alan,

    If I come to Chicago I’m hanging out at the Gene Siskel Film Center and If I go to New York I’m headed for Film Forum. I’ll hit good used bookstores in both towns. Maybe some theatre. No opera or classical music, though. I’ve had my share.

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  26. I knew a classical pianist who was a Christian and thought that some classical composers wrote music that was of the devil. I also had a music prof one time that said that we do not judge classical music, but what we say about it judges us. I apply that line to Jonathan Edwards as well. What a person says about Edwards does not judge Edwards, but instead judges that person.

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  27. Alan, good point. And one of Ken’s observations about this phenomenon is that we are surrounded by music — buds, car radios, ipods, you name it. It is as common as air and even more accessible. And that may account for why we give it so little reflection.

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  29. “… Come here to Chicago, Erik, and I’ll take you to the Lyric Opera: it just might change your mind. We’ve got Die Meistersinger von Nuremberg coming up and Rigoletto (as well as a few others–Boheme with Netrebko and Calleja). I can’t wait …”

    Well, you may have to wait – for Die Meistersinger, anyway. One of the performers burned himself half to death on stage the other night.

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  30. I find it rather humorous that Christians who would never think of being relativists in any of the other branches of philosophy or theology (ethics, for instance) avidly embrace aesthetic relativism and grow alarmed at perceived elitism.

    Fantastic point. You officially win this comment thread.

    While online audio of Ken Myers is pending, you can listen to T. David Gordon sing much the same song.

    Do I really have to say that Kieślowski’s “Three Colors” triology is superior to the Coen’s three best films?

    I don’t think you necessarily need to in this case, but how about the Coen brothers’ three worst films vs than the Twilight trilogy? or Tyler Perry’s three best films?

    Speaking of Coen and Myers, I can offer this anecdote. Myers is a big-time film buff, and does enjoy the efforts of the bros. Coen. When asked of The Big Lebowski, “What’s that movie about?” His reponse was “Eh, I’d say about two and a half hours”

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  31. Meyers: The real irony is that the spoken word is more primitive than the printed word. So this is a technology that enables the recovery of a more primitive experience. I just did an interview about this with Craig Gay, who argues that hearing is the sense that the Scriptures focus on most.

    Paging Jacques Ellul…. See also the online Google Books preview of Humiliation of the Word, where you can read almost all of the mind-blowing Prolegomena.

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  32. “One of the performers burned himself half to death on stage the other night.”

    Add to that the native who was killed when Fitzcarraldo was pulling the boat over the mountain and we are going to have to push for a Measure B for the Opera world.

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  33. I can’t comment on Coen vs. Twilight. After suffering through the first season of “True Blood” I don’t do vampires. I also don’t do superheroes. I have a limited ability to suspend disbelief. It’s also why I can’t be a Catholic.

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  34. I also haven’t seen anything by Tyler Perry. If you want to do African-American cinema I recommend “The Wire”, “Roll Bounce” and anything with Pam Grier in it — except for “The L Word”. Still having nightmares.

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  35. I am currently reading “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”. As we all know, Nazi Germany sought to remake the entire German Culture between 1933 and its fall in 1945. After replacing modern film, art, schools, etc… there was one part of public culture allowed to remain…classical music performance…specifically classical music from German classical composers.

    I am a big fan of classical music, but it would seem the Nazi love for “good music” may be added evidence for DGH’s points above. Richard Wagner’s work, including Ride of the Valkyries, was among Hitler’s favorites (I do realize Wagner falls closer to modern period than classical but its included on the “100 must have classical music pieces” CD so I am including it in classical as well).

    Thoughts?

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  36. Erik: I have a limited ability to suspend disbelief. It’s also why I can’t be a Catholic.
    Bruce: We have a new comment thread winner.

    As a musician, all I am trying to do is to be faithful to the text all the while interpreting it. And Alan, when you next come out to EOPC, you’ll have yourself a conversation – and listening – partner on the opera topic.

    However, one of my great failings as a father is that my son (RubeRad) to this day does not like Bluegrass. Go figure.

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  39. Alan,

    I have been a fan of Mahler since I lived in Chicago, and a friend turned me on to him, beyond his music, the man himself was very interesting. I am more inclined to the music of the Late Romantics than I am of the older classical composers – Mussorgsky and Holst are probably my two favorites. I am not sure how one could not be moved by this theme in Jupiter from Holst’s Planets (the movement starts at about 3:06):

    Holst – Jupiter

    I realize that relativity can be evoked at perceived elitism, and that isn’t to say there isn’t such a thing as good versus bad aesthetics, but I also find myself enjoying “lower” music forms. Say the lyrical mastery of an Emmylou Harris, or the folk sensibility of a Bob Dylan – these are wonderful forms of music, on the gritty level of folk art that possess their own beauty. Where, Mahler and co. might be likened to fine French cuisine, some of these folk artists are like a home-cooked meal – both have merits; but to be fair a lot of pop music has about the same nutrition value for the soul as Cheetos does for the body.

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  40. Erik – that Dueling Banjos ditty is to bluegrass what this is to every would-be rock musician …

    … both of which drive people crazy in relatively short order.

    Bruce sez: “However, one of my great failings as a father is that my son (RubeRad) to this day does not like Bluegrass. Go figure …”

    I, on the other hand, would say that’s much to his credit. But here go round and round on this musical elitism business …

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  42. I find it rather humorous that Christians who would never think of being relativists in any of the other branches of philosophy or theology (ethics, for instance) avidly embrace aesthetic relativism and grow alarmed at perceived elitism.

    What may help the offended is that while there is a distinction between substantive and trivial cultural product, nobody is saying that only the former should be consumed (I don’t think). Whatever else the Creator-creature distinction does, it shows that human beings are a complicated lot. As such, and if Solomon is right about a time for everything, there are times for higher order expressions and times for lower order. Sometimes we endure, maybe even grow to enjoy SpongeBob with the kids, sometimes they must drag their feet and maybe even learn to enjoy a Shakespearean play. What’s wrong with admitting somethings are just higher order than others and that different venues demand appropriate expressions while maintaining that human beings are complex and can indulge it all?

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  43. Man, I am all about the linkage in this thread! (one linky post is apparently stuck in moderation purgatory right now, DGH can you absolve?)

    I am a big fan of classical music, but it would seem the Nazi love for “good music” may be added evidence for DGH’s points above. Richard Wagner’s work, including Ride of the Valkyries, was among Hitler’s favorites…Thoughts?

    Don’t commit the Reductio ad Nazium fallacy, a.k.a. guilt by association. Even if you are not an opera fan, this is a great overview of Wagner’s ring cycle and its influence on music ever since (for instance leitmotif as used in the score of the LotR trilogy). That podcast almost made me want to go out and listen to the whole cycle!

    Erik – that Dueling Banjos ditty is to bluegrass what this is to every would-be rock musician

    I know! If you’re going to try to tempt me with bluegrass, you’re going to have to do a lot better than that! And dad, as for me not liking bluegrass, don’t beat yourself up. Ever since I discovered the world of podcasting through WHI probably 5 years ago, I’ve pretty much stopped listening to all music whatsoever.

    I can’t comment on Coen vs. Twilight….I also haven’t seen anything by Tyler Perry

    I don’t think the Twilight or Tyler Perry movies need to be actually seen fully to know that they are fundamentally inconsequential (I haven’t seen them either, but as you can see, I disparage them freely!) But I think you get my point; Coen bros. films are in the “superior” category along with Kieslowski’s Red, White and Blue, so they are not a counterexample to Myers’ (still alleged) remarks.

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  44. Zrim,

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong or even inaccurate about admitting that some things are of a higher order than others. The problem, to the degree it rises to the level of problematic, is when the attendant elitism isn’t merely a matter of perception. Pretension is as unbecoming as uncouthness.

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  45. The problem…is elitism

    Yes elitism is bad, but so is anti-elitism (anti-intellectualism?). Perhaps “a predilection for some kinds of music reflects a disordered soul” would be better said “an inability to appreciate, or proudly ignorant hatred of some kinds of music, reflects a disordered soul”?

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  46. Still mulling over this. Perhaps

    Level 1: A rejection of the notion that some music is intrinsically good, and some music is intrinsically not (that some music is objectively superior to some other music) reflects a disordered soul.

    Level 2: An acceptance of the notion of objective superiority in music, coupled with an incorrect identification (objectively superior music is thought to be inferior and vice versa), reflects a disordered soul.

    Level 3: An acceptance of the notion of objective superiority in music, and a correct identification of superior/inferior music, coupled with a predilection for inferior music, reflects a disordered soul.

    Level 4: No incorrect notions or disorder in any part of life, i.e. myself.

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  47. Jed,

    I, too, enjoy a range of music, both in performing and listening.

    Chicago is a wonderful place to come to love Mahler, as the CSO has given, and I’ve been privileged to hear, many bravura performances of his works. I remember a performance of the Second (“Resurrection”) a few years back (Bernard Haitink conducting) in which the choral entrance in the last movement (the quietest choral entrance in the standard repertoire) was so ethereal as to rivet the attention of the rapt audience to the stage. No one seemed to breathe for a bit and you could have heard a pin drop (in the often too-noisy hall!). Haitink is a great Mahler interpreter. I will also never forget the performance of the Sixth (“Tragic”) the late Klaus Tennstedt gave some years ago.

    I love Mussorgsky, as well as the other four (!), and Russian music more broadly. Also Holst: I like Levine with Chicago and the Berlin with HVK for “The Planets,” but quite enjoyed your link as well (I had not heard the Osaka playing this). I was at a wonderful performance of this many years ago at the Philadelphia Orchestra (in the Academy of Music) with a bunch of people, one of whom refused to believe that it was an off-stage women’s chorus in that haunting ending of the Neptune movement.

    And, George, that was a supernumerary burned the other day at the Meistersinger dress rehearsal. He is now healing, expected to make a full recovery. Friday remains opening night for Wagner’s masterpiece. Erik is not off the hook.

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  48. the quietest choral entrance in the standard repertoire

    Speaking of which, check out the Solti/Chicago recording of The Messiah, for the astoundingly quiet choral entrance of “Since by man came death…” Less is more!

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  49. I find it rather humorous that Christians who would never think of being relativists in any of the other branches of philosophy or theology (ethics, for instance) avidly embrace aesthetic relativism and grow alarmed at perceived elitism.

    Personally, I find it humorous that Christians can take the way we approach philosophy, theology, or ethics, superimpose it on musical aesthetics, and connect all this to “the way God wants it” in some fashion or form. Our approach to these “ologies” does not correspond directly to our approach to aesthetic choices in music. It’s like comparing apples to spacesuits.

    Evaluating the superiority of one musical form over another has to take into consideration a lot of factors. Music has different purposes, is used in different venues, is enjoyed in different ways. I truly enjoy Handel’s Messiah. “His Yoke is Easy” is sublime, but it’s not good for congregational singing (at least not in my congregation!). I am swept up by Verdi’s Requiem, but Dies Irae is not the best traveling music in my minivan while driving down the interstate with my three children in tow. I’m a big fan of Samuel Barber’s Adagio for Strings, but that wouldn’t be my first choice of music for the dance floor.

    Furthermore, these discussions often show a bias toward classic Western tonality (Mahler is superior to “the name your version of inferior composer/musician goes here”). Eastern tonality or tribal musical forms complicate our evaluation scheme.

    Of course, that doesn’t mean one can’t evaluate music within certain parameters (comparing a Mozart Symphony with Hayden’s or the Beatles with the Rolling Stones) but even there we are met with complexities.

    Whether we like it or not, there is always a measure of subjectivity in all things aesthetic, which leaves some room for a little bit of relativism . . . gasp!!! the horror!!!

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  50. I am swept up by Verdi’s Requiem, but Dies Irae is not the best traveling music in my minivan while driving down the interstate with my three children in tow

    Are you kidding? I can think of no better music to have blasting in the background while screaming “I WILL TURN THIS CAR AROUND!”

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  51. stuart, you belie your agreement with Myers by only citing examples of superior music. Why didn’t you dip into the ouvre of Milli Vanilli for any of your examples?

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  52. Alan – the only problem I have with going to any performance at the Lyric Opera House is that I suffer from a bad case of vertigo. The last time we were there we had seats in the very first row of the upper most balcony, because they were the cheapest we could get, and I almost can’t remember what was playing because of that irresistible “force” pulling me over the edge.

    Seats on the first level are out of the question (IF you could even get them) due to the high cost, 2-3 times for some pretty darn good seats at a White Sox game.

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  53. RubeRad,

    stuart, you belie your agreement with Myers by only citing examples of superior music. Why didn’t you dip into the ouvre of Milli Vanilli for any of your examples?

    Perhaps. My intent was to show by my examples that I am not an anti-art-music-kinda-guy. I have a wide array of tastes in music. But if you think my musical prejudices are showing, you can blame it on the rain. I guess it’s all or nothing with me when it comes to music. Girl, you know it’s true.

    Some of my rambling discomfort on this topic of “superior” music could be assuaged if we took the time to answer one question . . . “Superior in what way?”

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  54. Stuart:

    As I indicated in my last reply, I, too, like a wide range of musical genres and styles.

    But this does not mean that one can make no qualitative judgments with respect to music. I agree that much of Handel is too complex for singing in worship, for example, and I concur with the other judgments that you made, all of which are aesthetic judgments of fitness: this music is more fit for this occasion than that. We can also make judgments about music, given the discipline of music, exhibiting superior composition to other pieces, given the consideration of any number of musical criteria.

    Put it this way: if I ever and only listen to music that is inferior according to accepted musical canons, then I will be impoverished. There are myriads of people who only and every listen to inferior music and this stunts them musically and leaves them musically malnourished. If you wish to pretend that such is not so, I shall not argue further, because your own posts have demonstrated that you yourself are not musically impoverished.

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  55. As I say, Ken was not arguing for musical appreciation as a form of sanctification. He was, though, talking about what music and its place in the universe says about the human soul and its relation to the creator. Without sufficient care and theological rigor, such considerations can lead to blurring the lines between what happens in sanctification and what occurs with a well-ordered natural soul.

    That is important; Ken is not saying “predilection for inferior music is SIN”; what he is saying is that judging inferior music as superior, is more akin to thinking 2+2=5, than opining that chocolate is better than vanilla. Those with predilection for inferior music have disordered souls in much the same way as those who hate math (cannot recognize the inherent beauty and orderliness), or hate literature (cannot understand why Moby Dick has to be so long, or Shakespeare peoples haz 2 talk so funny)

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  56. Alan Strange,

    Perhaps you are right. Maybe I am simply overreacting to what I perceive to be musical snobbery when what is actually happening is something more akin to descriptive analysis of various musical compositions.

    I would, however, note that describing someone as “musically malnourished” rubs me the wrong way. I know plenty of people who do not share my enthusiasm for “art music” of various kinds, but I do not think of them as malnourished. Malnutrition, in it’s usual sense, can be a serious problem which leads to all sorts of maladies. Can the same be true if someone never listens to Vivaldi, Schubert, or Britten? Or let’s say someone likes Bach but will not listen to music of the Romantic era? Is such a person malnourished?

    Again, I may be the one with the faulty reasoning here, but the verbiage of “malnutrition” and “impoverished” does seem to set up a divide that has the air of snobbery about it (“Those poor, pitiful creatures who don’t their Strauss from Stravinsky. Tsk, tsk.”). Maybe this kind of thing can’t be avoided when it comes to music, but it would go a long way in my mind if we at least toned down that kind of language.

    And for what it’s worth, I wouldn’t necessarily count me out for being musically impoverished. I have songs by the Aquabats and Papa Roach on my iPhone.

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  57. RubeRad,

    Those with predilection for inferior music have disordered souls in much the same way as those who hate math (cannot recognize the inherent beauty and orderliness), or hate literature (cannot understand why Moby Dick has to be so long, or Shakespeare peoples haz 2 talk so funny)

    I don’t hate literature, but after reading Moby Dick it did occur to me, “Here is a man who really could have used an editor.”

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  58. Part of my beef against high art is what I have seen happen to Paul Thomas Anderson as a filmmaker. I’m going to have to take a cyanide capsule into his next film in case it gets any worse.

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  59. Allow me to speculatively channel Myers (or T. David Gordon) here; don’t jump the gun and automatically equate “the great musical traditions” with “Beethoven or Wagner”, i.e. Western European art music. Every culture has its own musical traditions, and Myers’ categories and arguments would hold in all of them.

    In every culture, in God’s common grace, there is probably some good music, and almost certainly some bad music (I would speculate that our modern culture generates very little good music). This is distinct from various purposes having music which is appropriate (even the “best” rock song would not be suitable for a funeral or a wedding or a worship service).

    An African tribesman who has never heard of Bach, knows that his culture has produced some good music, and some not so good; or at least he should know it. An African tribesman who has a predilection for the inferior music of his tribe and culture, has a disordered soul.

    A first-century Christian, who has never heard a single hymn by Isaac Watts or praise song by Graham Kendrick, nonetheless knows that among the psalms and songs sung in worship, among the folk songs sung around the campfire by the community, among the courtly music sung in palaces, some are better, some are worse. And if he has a predilection for the inferior music, he has a disordered soul.

    But what about today? Too many people reject the notion that music has any objective qualities, asserting rather that it only comes down to taste. Or, they go even further and uphold modern pap, and deride our own great musical tradition as worthless. Cue Myers, arguing “that some forms of music are superior to others, that a predilection for some kinds of music reflects a disordered soul, and that appreciation of good music requires education and discipline”

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  60. (I would speculate that our modern culture generates very little good music)

    Let me correct myself. This may be a statistical bias of the present; Surely bad music was created in the past, and we have no awareness of it, because it was bad, and disappeared from our tradition.

    Whether more bad music is produced today in comparison to earlier epochs is perhaps debatable; what I think is not debatable is that more bad music is consumed today; in absolute terms simply because technology allows so much more music to be consumed in the first place, and in proportion, because technology allows the masses to consume music without the “education and discipline” required for proper appreciation, so they have a predilection for inferior music.

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  61. Thanks Alan S. for channeling Ken Myer’s so well. Ken once told the story of a twenty-something who learned that a late family member greatly appreciated jazz, a musical style of which he was ignorant. Out of esteem for his relative the chap set out to understand and appreciate jazz. It was hard work. For him nothing in jazz was immediately accessible. It would have to be learned. It was a long walk uphill.

    When he told friends he was on this journey, one gal was horrified. She believed he was doing himself great harm. She believed all musical tastes were thoroughly preferential and mystically acquired through one’s own personality – maybe in utero . He was doing violence to his soul, so she thought. This is where we’re at today in the west. Relativism is the orthodoxy of aesthetics too.

    Myers approach to these things, best I can tell, is to look for creational norms (natural law). He seeks to distinguish between what is more true to our humanness from what is less true to it. It is not elitism for elitism’s sake. He is often saying, “This is what being human looks like here and here.” Surely we would never say that just because humans are doing it, listening to it, or producing it, it is a faithful representation of what it means to be human. Just as we would not say just because it was done in a worship service it is Christian worship.

    I do appreciate all the caution, however, about turning all this into some sort of new confessional standard. That would make our confession far less portable. The wisdom of the divines strikes again.

    PS. Myers does find folk music and styles other than classical quite humane as well.

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  64. The problem with the “disordered soul” bit is it tries to make the leap from what we experience to who we are. A guy can listen to nothing but the Bill Gaither Trio and still be sneaking onto the internet after the wife and kids go to bed to look at porn. Another guy can have tattoos and listen to metal music that I would never get into and be a real stand-up guy with integrity. Differing tastes is not a fruit of the spirit unless the taste is for something that is clearly forbidden. I would like to say the guy who prefers Natural Light to Fat Tire is somehow spiritually deficient, but Scripture doesn’t allow me to.

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  65. It reminds me of the kick I was on at Christian College about Rock Music being evil. I has this video where the guy gave a demonstration. He put some kids in a room with a bowl full of powder and the kids didn’t touch it. Then he put some kids in a room with M&M type candies and the kids ate them up. His point was that people won’t eat poison, but if it’s disguised as candy they’ll eat it. i.e., Rock music is poison disguised as candy. Real deep stuff. I championed the video, wrote a column in the newspaper, organized a viewing, etc. What a tool I was. How about just listening to rock music and thinking about it critically in order to identify the good and the bad? And teaching our kids to do likewise? It’s better to engage the world than to fear it. We certainly do more good for our neighbor that way.

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  66. Erik,

    “Disordered Soul” would actually be a good name for a rock band.”

    I would give that band a listen . . . but only if they played rock versions of Mahler symphonies and Wagner’s operas.

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  67. Music is something that grows from cultural roots that expresses something of the spirit of its subculture. Accordinly I do think it’s cultural snobbery to coronate one kind of music as the highest form. Musical intelligence, rather than being provincial, is able to recognize well-executed music that developed in another culture.

    For example, I recently heard someone on NPR as I was trying to figure out how the radio feature on my iPod works. I scurred to youtube to find more, like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsGi7xQnqxw He’s rooted in Oklahoma – not my roots. But there’s musical and lyrical talent there – if someone can’t see that I’ll tend to attribute to him provincialism rather than a well-ordered soul.

    Erik, there’s a venue down in Indianola that used to do a season of operas. I saw The Crucible because I got discount or free tickets and I enjoyed it. But it’s a rich man’s hobby. And OPC ministers’ hobby, if we take into account Alan and the Pella Muether who more than once has fallen asleep on the way back from Presbytery with opera blasting through his iPod.

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  68. I would like to say the guy who prefers Natural Light to Fat Tire is somehow spiritually deficient

    Not spiritually deficient, just naturally deficient.

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  71. Erik:

    George had me concerned mentioning the Lyric Opera and the Sox together. At least you’ve got the right ball club. I love going to Wrigley to see the Cubs! This is our year! Come on out!

    Stuart, you should hear my recording of John Fogerty singing “Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen.” It’s unforgettable.

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  72. This may be off the mark for what DGH had in mind with offering this post but I can say that Opera is the pinnacle of western music – it deserves to be capitalized. It has the best of human voice solo, human voice choir, and instrumental (not to mention the costumes, sets, plot etc.). The very best singers sing opera. Cream rises. This is not debatable in my opinion.

    However, my opinion was somehow shaken when I gave Renee Fleming a listen on her foray into pop with her Dark Hope album. Singing pop, her spectacular operatic voice falls way short of even your run-of-the-mill American Idol finalist.

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  73. Rube, but without a clear distinction between sin and aesthetics, talk of a well-ordered soul in regard to music can lead to ideas not about redeeming music but music redeeming. This is an issue where neo-Calvinist excesses may also need more qualification. Relating grace and nature can be slippery without a firm doctrine of original sin.

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  76. Erik, but what if it is the case that someone can actually study musical forms and styles and improve the order of one’s soul? It happens with literature and philosophy. Why not with music?

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  77. M&M, but how about making a case for musical equality on musical grounds, not from music as a function of cultural location? If it is possible to study law — in fact, if you need to study it to have some grasp of what’s going on — then why not with music?

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  79. Bruce Settergren,

    Bless you for the expression of your sentiments with respect to Opera.

    I’ve been listening to, and watching, that grand art form since a child and will now venture an opinion that might shake or even offend you: Renee Fleming is overrated. I don’t disagree that the technique of the opera singer is different than that required for other musical styles. Some opera singers don’t do well in jazz, Broadway, pop, etc. Some do splendidly. I simply think that Renee in her opera singing consistently employs too much cover in her voice and she’s often far too precious in her phrasing. She has a beautiful voice but I do not care for her technique. I’ll forego her acting altogether (it can be mawkish). Sometimes she’s just right. But often not in my view. So I am not surprised that some are not fond of her forays into popular music.

    But these kinds of arguments are those that go on among opera afficinados all the time, especially with respect to tenors (good ones are very hard to find; they’re frequently baritones masquerading as tenors). Bottom line: Bruce and I may disagree here, but at least we’re arguing about something important (I hope that’s not elitist!).

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  80. Darryl, I only object to them when they’re cooking for me. Darryl, i’d assume we’d call them an alcoholic. When rubbing alcohol suffices, things have become disordered. But now we’re making distinctions at the extremes. 2k, if nothing else, made way for liberty and diversity on those things non-cultic and not contrary to NL.

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  81. Alan,

    I know for a fact that I would not appreciate art and music the way I do today if I had not lived in an urban center like Chicago. I could access world class art, music, and dance on any day I wished to, something I could never do growing up in suburban So Cal. This makes me somewhat sympathetic to the reasons why suburbanites are less inclined to appreciate high culture – simply a lack of exposure. It is one thing to hear Holst on Youtube, entirely another to watch it in a Symphony Hall.

    I remember how I used to mock ballet until, one of my good friends at Moody Church, who was one of the male leads at the Joffery Ballet in Chicago invited me to The Nutcracker. I was hooked, the beauty of art in motion was something to behold. I watched several more Joffrey performances, and have appreciated dance every since – I guess it is no surprise I married a dancer who spent a good deal of time and effort on ballet as a dance discipline.

    If I wasn’t exposed to these artistic forms, I doubt I would’ve acquired much of a taste for them. I don’t think you are intending to sound elitist in the slightest. I just think that demographically speaking, there is such a low appreciation for the high arts that when one speaks of the superior qualities of these forms the charge of elitism is almost unavoidable. But, I doubt anyone who takes the time to learn about the higher arts ends up deriding them, because once understanding of the artists emerges, an appreciation of their skill and communicative intent follows.

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  82. “how about making a case for musical equality on musical grounds, not from music as a function of cultural location? If it is possible to study law — in fact, if you need to study it to have some grasp of what’s going on — then why not with music?”

    In law there’s pretty much a consensus on what it means to understand a case, a constitutional principle, or a statute. If you’re too far off the consensus you don’t graduate law school, don’t pass the bar exam or lose a lot. So that’s one discontinuity.

    As far as the musical education, doesn’t like breed like? If you’re studying music in a certain way in a classroom setting, you’re probably going to end up in an orchestra. If you study by following around Son House and Willie Brown you’re going to be Robert Johnson.

    Then there’s the important and legitimate matter of intuition. Two men play the same notes; each has technical skill. But one senses how long to hold on to a note, when to play strong and when to ease up – he has intuition that can’t be reduced to an object of study. Of the same two men, one writes serviceable lyrics with appropriate meter but the other writes in powerful metaphors and connects with his audience. You can feel it but you can’t reduce it to scientific study. Many of the great things in life can’t be captured in a theoretical study.

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  83. D.G. – Erik, but what if it is the case that someone can actually study musical forms and styles and improve the order of one’s soul? It happens with literature and philosophy. Why not with music?

    Erik – What does it mean exactly to improve the order of one’s soul? That sounds rather Edwardsian and esoteric. If someone digs something that is not outright sinful, then to each his own. I dig things that people here have no interest in and that’s fine. I certainly wouldn’t accuse them of having a shortcoming for not digging them. Not that anyone is necessarily doing that. I have a bit of a struggle with the notion of a Canon in any field since I read Dwight MacDonald’s takedown of the Great Books of the Western World set and William Deresiewicz’s takedown of Harold Bloom. I think an ordered soul, if there is such a thing, happens more organically than it does through any specific course of study. It’s kind of like a Harvard undergraduate thinking he’s arrived the day he gets his degree. I’m not impressed. Larry McMurtry after a lifetime of browsing through old books and picking up bits and pieces of knowledge here and there — I’m impressed.

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  84. Sean, and doesn’t that liberty extend to discerning whether Random House is a better publisher than Xulon? The world of culture is filled with distinctions between good and bad, higher and lower. 2k is not a justification for egalitarianism.

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  85. M&M, but we do believe that education about certain arts is important for understanding and appreciating them. If anyone studied music they might actually come up with a vocabulary for saying that Willie Brown (whoever) is better than Neil Young.

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  86. Erik, you need to listen to the lectures, but it has to do with the way that music and its cadences, harmonies, rhythms is built into the fabric of the created order. If you can believe in ontology, then music is, in Ken’s reckoning, an extension of metaphysics. This isn’t revivalist. It’s Greek and Hebrew. And if we all studied music more — something that doesn’t happen much anymore in the U.S. educational system — we might not be so shocked by such assertions. If you’ve ever read Leon Kass’ book The Hungry Soul, Ken in my estimate is trying to do for music what Kass did for food.

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  87. FWIW, a snippet from a 1995 interview of piano jazz legend George Shearing by NY critic Steve Capra:

    “…. I maintain that if some of the composers – like Bach, and, to some degree, Mozart – were they alive today, would be fine jazz musicians. I say that about Bach, in particular, because, if we look at his background, and his biography… he had two wives, twenty kids… he was kicked out of churches for being too harmonically radical… he was not only a devout Lutheran, but he was also a beer-drinking German. If they’re not the characteristics of a jazz musician, you tell me …”

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  88. DGH: sure. I was suggeting limitations rather then shooting down the whole idea. I took a music course back at the University. If I could have been a professional student I would have taken more.

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  89. Alan, anyone who goes by “Alan Strange from MARS” is all right in my book. And I doubt there is any way you could offend me, especially on the topic of Renee Fleming. My general take is that anyone who can make it in the Opera world must be out of this world, even though not being everyone’s favorite. So, my comments re Ms. Fleming were made strictly based on her personal achievement not from any actual listening. However, don’t mess with Anna Netrebko. Those are some serious vocal chords. Her singing is to this music lover what rain was to the agrarian economy of the Ancient Near East.

    As for DGH’s take on Opera being an overwrought musical, right there we have a classic curmudgeonly DGHism.

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  90. D.G. – Erik, you need to listen to the lectures, but it has to do with the way that music and its cadences, harmonies, rhythms is built into the fabric of the created order

    Erik – I do need to listen to them. Let us know when/where they are available.

    It sounds like something from Bill Gothard’s Institute in Basic Life Principles, but I’ll suspend judgment for now. I’ll admit to cringing a bit when I hear things like this. It reminds me of Todd Akin saying a woman does not normally conceive a child from rape. Some Christians have a tendency to ascribe things to providence and the created order that are strangely convenient to their politics and personal tastes. Maybe the facts bear out what Myers (and Akin) are saying, though.

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  91. Darryl, I don’t think we disagree with making distinction between higher order-lower order cultural ‘products’. My push back is against the evaluation of an ‘ordered’ soul. I prefer the idea of context and suitability in music choices. Aaron Copeland and Soundgarden are both out of place in worship. But each can have a place in a well-ordered life or not. I resist weaker brother stratification on musical grounds, or even just snobbery, which tends to be where this discussion ends up. I always wanna take these guys for a run or put them through their physical paces and then remind them that Paul recommends the discipline and mind set of the athlete for progress in their holy living to say nothing of his assessment of physical exertion itself as being of some profit. I can make just as compelling arguments for physical posture in ordering one’s soul in a dichotomous being, as I can for music appreciation. I’m good with both.

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  92. Pretension is as unbecoming as uncouthness.

    Sean, I agree, but probably only because I think you’re right. Just a little epistemological humor there.

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  93. Bruce:

    Just to be perfectly clear: I think that Miss Fleming has a lovely voice. It’s just that, particularly in more recent times, she has become too self-indulgent in her singing and it has impacted intonation, phrasing, and even, I think, timbre. Her beautiful voice is not the be-all and end-all that some proclaim it to be.

    I agree with you on Miss Netrebeko: that’s singing! I am looking forward to hearing her as Mimi and Calleja as Rodolfo at Lyric next month as she makes her debut here in Chicago.

    And as for Darryl’s comment, operas are not musicals, the origin of each being rather different. I am happy, though, that he was defending the notion of aesthetical standards. One may listen to a rather wide range of music, in defense of such, but to act as if there are no musical standards is simply not true to the way any of us approach music.

    I find it interesting that certain commenters here cite fundamentalist concerns (whether Gothard or others), when what Ken is arguing has nothing to do with that sort of thing at all. The argument is not “this genre is evil,” but “this music is better.” Those are different arguments altogether: one is ethical; the other is aesthetical. We may disagree with each other’s aesthetical judgments, but we should have grounds for such, not just “you can say something is better musically.” I think you can and I think that we all think that we can.

    Some are just nervous, I think, that they’re going to be told that they have to listen to Bach or Mozart or Mahler or somebody. I don’t intend to do that. But just like I might have enjoyed a delicious Lobster Thermidor at Cafe Francoise and highly recommend it to all (over Mickey D’s), what’s wrong if I enoy Mahler’s 3rd Symphony at the CSO (with Jay Friedman’s fantastic trombone solo in the first movement) and argue that all should go and enjoy and be enriched by such a musical feast? I know that it can be scary if one is unaccustomed to such, but try it out sometime! You might like it!

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  94. I agree with the general thrust here about higher and lower order, etc., but when some of the higher brows go on at length it feels the way it does when pietists wear their faith on their sleeves. Or Mac users talk at length about how much better Macs are.

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  95. But isn’t it tricky to say one genre is inherently better than another? Is the OPC better than the URCNA (or vice versa)? Is “The Wire” better than “Breaking Bad”? I can reasonably say that the Miami Heat are better than the Washington Wizards because they are both attempting to do the same thing and one team is clearly doing that one thing better than the other. Can I say Mahler is superior to Eminem without presupposing that classical music is better than rap music? I for one can not say that Steely Dan is superior to Talking Heads, but I can say they are both really good.

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  97. Zrim, Sean, and Erik, you guys are sounding anti-intellectual and anti-elitist. That’s okay. They are not sins. But without hearing Ken’s case (and that problem is mine since I can’t make theme available), I don’t know how you can say that high brows are running on about this. I am especially willing to push back here because music education is so paltry in our society. There was a time when Ken’s arguments and claims would have made sense and not come across as elitist. People would have even thought he was thoughtful. So I ask for patience to see what he has up his sleeve. And I wonder why you have the reaction you do when you seem willing to tolerate thoughtful discussions in other realms. I mean, political theory can sound egg heady to your average citizen. Does it mean we can’t learn from theorists when they talk about the polis and the well-ordered soul?

    But the language of well-ordered soul is precisely what I wanted to raise and push back there along theological lines seems entirely appropriate. How can a fallen soul be well-ordered? Part of the resolution has to come on 2k grounds — a created soul vs. a regenerate soul.

    Still, as people who defend Xian liberty, can’t we have learned folks who remind us how low brow our tastes are?

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  98. Erik, if you were in the construction trade, you could well tell the difference between a well made house and a poorly constructed one. What Ken is arguing for is some education that gives you the tools to evaluate music. And he is pointing to a problem where Americans refuse to conceive of any elevation of tastes when it comes to music (as opposed to a host of other human activities). He thinks that is odd. I do too.

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  99. The notion of gaining an “ordered soul” apart from the means of grace is also an interesting one. Might we not be playing into the Neocalvinists’ hands? I can just see Dr. K’s wheels turning once we concede that things like food, music, opera, theatre, etc. contribute to an ordered soul. Sounds a bit like all-of-life culturally obedient Calvinism contributing to the church as organism.

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  100. I’m probably biased because I was a lousy art and music student. I think I got a “C” in seventh grade music. My music teacher was married to the local dirty bookstore owner but that’s not relevant to the story.

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  101. Darryl, I said I agree with the general thrust about higher and lower order cultural products. I’ll add that elitism is the only way to finally resist women’s ordination (complementarianism is all about sex, a mere subset of the debate that apes larger cultural fixations). Three cheers for elitism, boos for pretension. My only point was that when high browers wax on about their knowledge it feels a heckuva lot like pietists waxing on about their experiences. How about adding some modesty and restraint to the team?

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  102. Erik says Might we not be playing into the Neocalvinists’ hands? I can just see Dr. K’s wheels turning once we concede that things like food, music, opera, theatre, etc. contribute to an ordered soul. Sounds a bit like all-of-life culturally obedient Calvinism contributing to the church as organism.

    Bingo! Took the thought right from my head! The irony is rich! It seems as if Hart thinks supperior music should order societies collective soul; but not God’s Word, ouch!

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  103. A well-ordered soul would be disgusted by the Mikelmann household. If he stays with us for a few weeks he’ll understand the therapeutic value of the Blues and laugh at his former preoccupation with being well-ordered.

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  104. I put the burden on those affirming the role of classical music in the development of an ordered soul to explain Mozart. He was a man who, by all accounts, had a disordered soul. Yet from childhood he had the technical ability and giftedness to play and compose music that I am being told is vital for the ordered soul.

    Another thing to think about is the relationship between an ordered soul and greatness. Mozart is one example. Bill Clinton is another — a gifted politician with an apparently disordered soul. Mortimer Adler was a gifted thinker but could not graduate from Columbia because he couldn’t pass swimming. Larry McMurtry, a gifted writer, had to transfer from Rice to North Texas because he could not pass the required math class. What I am getting at is, to what degree are order and greatness linked? Might not a certain degree of bentness and sense of irony be involved in those who do great creative work. If you think entirely inside the box might it not be difficult to do the kind of groundbreaking work that by definition occurs outside the box?

    It is not without significance that Fagen and Becker were referred to as Starkweather and Manson by their early bandmates.

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  105. I’m not opposed to elitism per se. My wife accuses me of being an elitist all the time. She also accuses me of spending way too much time talking with and debating white, middle-aged, conservative men online. She is correct on both counts.

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  106. Erik and Doug, no. The distinction is between higher order and lower order on the temporal spectrum, all of which is contrasted with the eternal.

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  107. The push back is against “airs”, it grates on me. Mea Culpa. Elitism above all things should be well-mannered and not condescending. I’m more than happy to learn from my betters.

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  110. Zrim, Sean, Erik,

    Just own it guys, you are a bunch of low-brow knuckle-draggers. Now if you’ll excuse me I have to go consult Shostakovich about ordering my soul.

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  111. Zrim says but I think in this context “soul” is being used in a created, provisional sense.

    You *think* huh? I”m shaking my head and rolling my eyes lol! Zrim you are one piece of work! Even when your busted dead to rights you try to squirm out of the trap you have snared yourself in.

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  113. Along these same lines, what of the link between the prevalence of homosexuality and bisexuality and the creative fields of classical music, opera, and dance? Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein, Virgil Thomson just to name three. Think of the use of Opera in “Philadelphia”.

    I am not being critical, just pointing out a potenial glitch in the link between certain art forms and the well-ordered soul.

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  114. Don’t all engineers have well-ordered souls? Accountants should as well – I don’t know what happened to Erik.

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  116. Jed, I’m a Dapper-Dan man. But when you order your soul, I hope you’re not in that geographical oddity of two weeks from everywhere.

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  117. Doug, so you can roll your eyes, shake your head, AND thump your chest at once? Neandrathal (but a talented one) alert.

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  118. Hart has a new prescription for societies collective soul; good music, sadly, not God’s Word. Can good music penetrate the “common realm” where God’s Word fails? I guess Hart would say yes. Can good music accomplish more for societies collective soul than the gospel? DGH would say YES! DGH seems to be FOR teaching good music in our Public schools, just not God’s law.

    Does something smell rotten in Denmark?

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  120. Actually Todd reminds me of evidence in support of objective standards. As a teen I listened to Styx and Heart. Bad music. But Pink Floyd and, later, Radiohead? Very good within a genre.

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  122. Erik, is that the same reasoning that says Roman theology is linked to pedophilia? I drink Blue Moon. I must be gay.

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  124. Zrim,

    I’m not the one who has to defend the assertion. Your comparison would only hold up if you had asserted that “Roman theology can be a tool in cultivating a well-ordered soul” or “Blue Moon can be a tool in cultivating a well-ordered soul.”

    I would actually be happy defending that second assertion.

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  125. Todd, I’ll give you high-brow credit for Styx if I can get the same for Elton John’s MadMan across the Water. It’s the Vinyl even.

    Jed, maybe. But, I have more than one brow.

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  126. Thinking about the ordering of souls (even unsaved souls) in a temporal sense reminds of of the PCUSA’s revision of the Westminster in 1903 that I was reading about in “Seeking a Better Country” last night. This quote is from Hart & Muether in “New Horizons” but is similar to what was in the book:

    “Despite some support for a major overhaul, a compromise prevailed that effected minor revisions to the Confession. In 1903 the church added two chapters on “The Holy Spirit” and “The Love of God and Missions.” Both were crafted with language that was vaguely biblical and not distinctively Reformed. In addition, the church revised chapter 16, article 7, which described the works of the unregenerate. Where these works were formerly described as “sinful and cannot please God,” the revised language described them as “praiseworthy.” Perhaps of greatest significance was the inclusion of a “Declaratory Statement” that sought to explain the Confession’s doctrine of election. In words that many accused of being deliberately ambiguous, the statement offered an “avowal … of certain inferences” about predestination, softening the doctrine for those who found it offensive and contradictory to the doctrine of human freedom.

    Presbyterians for the most part reacted enthusiastically to these changes. It was a preservation of “generic Calvinism” in the judgment of many. Henry Van Dyke carefully framed the results within the mainstream of Calvinist orthodoxy: “These two truths,” he wrote, “God’s sovereignty in the bestowal of his grace, and his infinite love for all men, are the hinges and turning points of all Christian theology. The anti-Calvinist decries the first. The hyper-Calvinist or Supralapsarian decries the second, holding that God creates some men on purpose to damn them, for his glory. The true Calvinist believes both and insists that they are consistent.” The Philadelphia Public Ledger echoed Van Dyke’s sentiments. The revisions to the Confession left its basic Calvinism intact while managing “to render it instantly so much more congenial to the modern mind.””

    This dispute within Presbyterianism mirrors the debate between the CRC and the Protestant Reformed over common grace, I believe.

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  127. In case you missed it, changing language describing the works of the unregenerate from “sinful and cannot please God,” to “praiseworthy” is a 180 degree change and where we come down on the issue has vast implications on the degree to which we believe man’s cultural output (high or low) can contribute to the ordering of souls.

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  128. Sean,

    Deal – though I might incite derision if I suggest Old Crow Medicine Show does more for my soul than Bach

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  129. Erik, it appeared to me that you were suggesting a link between a thing (Roman theology then, opera now) and sexual deviancy. But does drinking Blue Moon indicate an any less ordered than owning cats?

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  130. But the language of well-ordered soul is precisely what I wanted to raise and push back there along theological lines seems entirely appropriate. How can a fallen soul be well-ordered? Part of the resolution has to come on 2k grounds — a created soul vs. a regenerate soul.

    That is indeed the point; but as you said in your post, Myers is not talking about sanctification, so I assume he’s talking about a well-ordered (but fallen) soul in common-grace the way that only 2K can (1K can’t admit that anything is well-ordered if it’s not sanctified).

    I rest in Myers’ strong 2K cred while I eagerly await the audio. Get on it DGH! Call somebody up and tell them that, like, 3 people in a comment thread on a blog are clamoring for this recording to be posted! I’m sure they’ll drop everything and throw it into the intertubes posthaste!

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  131. Doug, you don’t think we can speak of the soul in provisional terms? What about faith? Is that only and ever an eternal term? Haven’t you ever told someone you have faith in his ability to fix your pipes, quite apart from his ability to save you?

    Like

  132. Todd – guilty
    Doug – discover the world of intermediate categories some day. Good mother. Good citizen. Well- ordered soul.
    Theonomists and pantheists struggle to recognize the intermediate.

    Like

  134. Thinking about the ordering of souls (even unsaved souls) in a temporal sense reminds of of the PCUSA’s revision of the Westminster in 1903 that I was reading about in “Seeking a Better Country” last night. This quote is from Hart & Muether in “New Horizons” but is similar to what was in the book:

    “Despite some support for a major overhaul, a compromise prevailed that effected minor revisions to the Confession. In 1903 the church added two chapters on “The Holy Spirit” and “The Love of God and Missions.” Both were crafted with language that was vaguely biblical and not distinctively Reformed. In addition, the church revised chapter 16, article 7, which described the works of the unregenerate. Where these works were formerly described as “sinful and cannot please God,” the revised language described them as “praiseworthy.” Perhaps of greatest significance was the inclusion of a “Declaratory Statement” that sought to explain the Confession’s doctrine of election. In words that many accused of being deliberately ambiguous, the statement offered an “avowal … of certain inferences” about predestination, softening the doctrine for those who found it offensive and contradictory to the doctrine of human freedom.

    Presbyterians for the most part reacted enthusiastically to these changes. It was a preservation of “generic Calvinism” in the judgment of many. Henry Van Dyke carefully framed the results within the mainstream of Calvinist orthodoxy: “These two truths,” he wrote, “God’s sovereignty in the bestowal of his grace, and his infinite love for all men, are the hinges and turning points of all Christian theology. The anti-Calvinist decries the first. The hyper-Calvinist or Supralapsarian decries the second, holding that God creates some men on purpose to damn them, for his glory. The true Calvinist believes both and insists that they are consistent.” The Philadelphia Public Ledger echoed Van Dyke’s sentiments. The revisions to the Confession left its basic Calvinism intact while managing “to render it instantly so much more congenial to the modern mind.””

    This dispute within Presbyterianism mirrors the debate between the CRC and the Protestant Reformed over common grace, I believe.

    Like

  135. In case you missed it, changing language describing the works of the unregenerate from “sinful and cannot please God,” to “praiseworthy” is a 180 degree change and where we come down on the issue has vast implications on the degree to which we believe man’s cultural output (high or low) can contribute to the ordering of souls.

    Like

  138. M&M, you miss the point, I celebrate good mothers and good citizens, BUT Harts concern for society to learn how to have a well ordered soul, is minus God’s special revelation. I find that ironic.

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  139. Erik, no one said anything on this side about classical. Why assume that this is the case? I believe Myer’s point is that objective criteria, having to do with music itself, which reflects certain aspects of the created order, not our preferences, establish good music.

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  141. Darryl, I’ve been trying to be subtle. I’m not referring to the lectures of Myers but some of the effusing going on in this thread.

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  142. Zrim, I’m the guy who tried to get you to see *soul* in more than just individual sense. Remember our back and forth at Greenbagins a few years ago? I’m thrilled your finally coming around! Nations (do in fact) have collective souls as do cities and states, as do families and local churches. All have been commanded by God to repent and bend the knee to Christ the Lord. (In every realm) Erik sees something you don’t. Once you admit to having a concern for the well being of souls, NeoCalvinism becomes logically inevitable.

    You see? The word *soul* does has different meanings. I have been saying this forever!!

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  143. Doug, you’re using “soul” in eternal terms though, as in bend the knee and kiss the Son. We have no disagreement on that usage, except that I limit eternal souls to human beings alone (no neighborhoods, cities, states, or nations or any other created thing). But there is a provisional use of the term “soul” and it’s applied to imago Dei and non-imago Dei creation.

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  144. Doug, We are all working here with creational and redemptive categories. You seem to be the only one in this discussion who can’t but help to conflate the two. Redemptive categories pertain to the cult and cult members. Creational categories apply to ALL inside and outside the cult. Cultic status is privileged status, not common status this side of the fall.

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  145. Sean! Conflate you say? That’s you alls problem! Neither one of you have come to grips with the one and the many. Both of you need to stop listening to Scott Clark tapes and start reading the Bible.

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  148. Zrim says I limit eternal souls to human beings alone (no neighborhoods, cities, states, or nations or any other created thing).

    Me: Zrim, God judges the *soul* of nations, and he always has. Whatever your doing in your reasoning process, quit it! because it’s wrong. You are missing the one and the many having equal primacy. Both are true! Have you read Rushdoony’s master work? No? I did not think so. You really need to, because you continue to make silly rookie mistakes when you break down common sacred distinctions. It’s hard to converse with you, because you don’t understand the concept.

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  150. Doug, well, until you can tell me how to make America a church member I’m not so sure I’m the one in left field. But has anybody ever suggested breaking the blue pills in half?

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  154. Doug, I’m just asking to make sure we’re clear.

    When you say that nations have souls, are you speaking collectively — “the soul of the nation” means “the souls of the human beings within the nation”? Or are you speaking metaphysically, as in America the nation is some kind of intelligent being with a separate soul?

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  159. “As a teen I listened to Styx and Heart. Bad music.”

    M, actually, when Styx started off they had great potential as a rock/bluegrass type band, as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Qs8-BkiLw

    Dennis DeYoung ruined the band by taking it in a different direction. By the time the band kicked Dennis out it was too late (Mr. Roboto). Tommy Shaw eventually returned to his bluegrass roots, even performing at the Grand Ole Opry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpDP0Y2UV-E

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  160. I don’t know, Darryl, that may be as natural as an older Dutchman setting the Genevan psalter to AC/DC (don’t laugh, I’ve seen it awkwardly suggested).

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  162. Doug, you thought it about it real hard, went to the mirror, splashed water on your face, looked in the mirror again, and then came back with your answer, didn’t you? Just messin’ with you…

    Leave it to neo-Cals and theonomists to argue that the trinity – a divinely revealed impenetrable mystery we receive by faith – is the ulimate CLARIFICATION of a perrenial tension in philosophy.

    Now that I’ve vetted the notion by mocking it, I’m open to the whole “well-ordered soul” bit. I don’t think I’m a candidate for the part based on my involuntarily whooping at a couple notes Junior Kimbrough hit via my car CD player on the way home from work. But who would a prototype be? The folks I’ve encountered who have seemed perfectly balanced seem like they might be better off with a life-changing crisis or something to knock them off their equipoise. But that’s just me, probably. Are we talking William F. Buckley? The Most Interesting Man? (Dos Equis commercials) Is the well-ordered soul akin to the actualized man?

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  163. MM, I was gonna vote for me but then I had to look up equipoise. I’m also a big fan of athletes who take PEDs and refuse to own up to it and I prefer dogs to cats(but I think that should actually count in my favor).

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  164. After reading all the comments I missed since yesterday, I think I’m going to go disorder my soul a bit with some MC Lars.

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  165. Sean, here’s the difference between cats and dogs: if a cat was big enough and hungry enough he’d eat everyone in the household. You never see sentimental pictures of cats by the coffins of their deceased caretakers – they’ve moved on their next meal ticket.

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  167. MM, Oorah.

    Doug, my favorite is still Armstrong. I’m willing to forgive the Oprah bit, as a ploy to stick it to Tygart. My problem is I’m a fan of Armstrong for having won the way he won. Contrariness is a virtue in sport, if nowhere else. That and anytime you can turn the tables the tables on the germans and french using an Ciao doctor as your foil……….well chapeau a vous.

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  168. Maybe it’s the recovering fundamentalist in me (fundy free since ’05!), but much of what I have read makes me uncomfortable.

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  170. Why not ask, Erik, if he’s related to tenor Matthew Cimino? Or baritone John Cimino? I see an ongoing animus against the musical arts, especially Opera. That you would jump to the cinematic arts–a clearly lower form–and ignore the higher musical arts is deeply troubling.

    I am sure Mr. Cimino himself, upon reflection, would be deeply troubled too. We will have to bind you and drag you to the Opera, you know, if only for your own good.

    And that goes for all the rest of you, as well. I’ve only been being concessively nice here. Embrace all the higher arts or you will be forcibly re-educated by those of us with more refined taste. Your lack of taste cannot continue to go unaddressed. You will be forced to go to the Opera, the Orchestra, and the Ballet…and you will like it!

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  172. DJ, we’ve talked to Sean about scaring people but it doesn’t seem to work. Think of an uncle who attends all your family events. He’s great for a few laughs and says some fascinating stuff, but at other times his thoughts are connected by a logic known only to himself and he has no inclination to muffle his belches regardless of the occasion.. When you bring your fiancee to meet the family his behavior is just the same as it is any other night, only it seems like there might actually be an extra belch in there.

    What? Oh, sorry. Yeah, Alan and that opera stuff is pretty scarey, too.

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  173. Just for that Alan I’ve hired a couple of thugs to pick you up deliver you to today’s matinee showing of “Django Unchained”. I’ll be in row 12 with the big bucket of buttered popcorn and the large Fresca.

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  174. Well, Erik, I am from Mississippi and Louisiana and we were “land owners” down there in the Civil War. I’ll just leave it at that. My Dad’s family was from New Orleans, were Episcopalians (with some Presbyterians–Church of Scotland–thrown in from his mother’s side), and quite involved in matters central to that War. What time does the picture start?

    And then tomorrow we can go to opening night, not of the opera but of the “music drama” by Herr Wagner: Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg! Johan Botha, the great heldentenor, will be singing Walther von Stolzing. It begins early and will take the better part of the evening.

    And then what? You all fear that we are coming for you. And we are (I just had a call to Jed and he’s bringing his thugs, albeit classy ones).

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  175. Brad,

    Yes, it was just potential, had they developed it in the right direction, who knows…? For quality there was always Queen and Kansas.

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  176. MM,

    I’m pretty sure I’m offended somewhere deep down within my disordered soul. It’s hard to tell with all this disorder though, I can’t distinguish one wound from another.

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  178. Zrim, not as far as anyone here knows or more importantly CARES. All I know anymore is I’m wounded deep for sure.

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  179. Erik – you might want to consider changing your blog photo from Angel Martin to “Bob” on the sitcom “Becker”.

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  180. Sean & Erik,

    Might I suggest your soul’s disorder can be addressed by listening to your local public radio station from about 10PM to Midnight. It would be more advisable than having Alan and I intervene forcefully.

    I look forward to hearing Meyers lectures. I am wondering how he locates music appreciation within the Great Tradition. I think one of the difficulties we as moderns, lacking a more classical education, is we haven’t been taught how to listen to music, and to understand what it means. As I understand it, the philosophers of the Great Tradition saw the musical discipline as a dialectical exercise where there was a performer/composer, then the listener, and just as the performer had the responsibility to make music, the listener was charged with the responsibility of understanding, or mentally engaging the music.

    It seems that music, as it is performed and listened to today is a far more passive activity, where a lot (not all) of listeners are only moved by the music in a similar way as a battery moves a robot – they are not actively engaging it music or seeking to grasp it’s affective powers.

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  181. “It seems that music, as it is performed and listened to today is a far more passive activity, where a lot (not all) of listeners are only moved by the music in a similar way as a battery moves a robot – they are not actively engaging it music or seeking to grasp it’s affective powers.”

    You could say something similar as to how Christians listen to sermons

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  182. Jed, does forceful intervention involve your cauliflowered ear self in a singlet? If so, I’m all over that NPR therapy.

    I’m not closed minded about such things at all, I like certain classical pieces. I look forward to hearing Myer’s lectures. Just don’t think less of me if I have ‘Overfloater’ going on in the background, maybe some ‘Comfortably numb’.

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  183. Sean,

    Cauliflower ear is one of my most distinguishing features. And you can count on me picking you up in my tuxedo print singlet. For some reason my wife would not let me wear it at our wedding.

    I’ve been known to sneak a flask into the symphony from time to time. But to keep it classy it’s usually filled with either speyside Scotch or cognac. We would want to make the experience as agreeable as possible. Who knows you might even come down with Stockholm syndrome.

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  184. Alan,

    If you are willing to pay my way, I’d come to any opera, music drama, or ballet you have in mind.

    And if you want to experience the dark side, we could try the Metal Alliance Tour with Anthrax.

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  185. “Wounded” Sean? I’d have that guy over any time.

    Probably on the back deck rather than the living room.

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  186. I’ve really been pondering the whole “music and the disordered soul” thing. Does this demonstrate an ordered or disordered soul?

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  187. I was hoping somebody out there had already thought of Erik’s great idea for the name of a rock band, but alas, according to my Google search no one has been so inspired (if I wasn’t in my forties and losing my hair, I would be tempted to pull some guys together for Disordered Soul’s fabulous debut).

    I did, however, discover Soul Disorder and after listening for a bit begin to think maybe Myers is onto something.

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  188. I got my feet elevated and I’m trying to stay away from long tunnels and bright lights. But I’m cut, I’m cut deep.

    Jed, I’m gonna side with your wife on that one. But, you’re onto something with that scotch idea.

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  190. It’s true Zrim. It’s true. But somehow I gotta try to love again. I think it was some wise classical lyricist who said; If I just carry on, they’ll be peace when I am done. Then I can lay my weary head to rest and I won’t have to cry no more.

    MM, make sure there’s some tissue out on the deck.

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  193. Terry, not really. Perkins was talking about restraint. I am talking about acquiring human and soulful capacities like all that stuff we do in the humanities. I know this is beyond a scientists.

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  194. Well, I’m feeling a little guilty. Not about Sean, mind you – that was a bright spot in my week, and he did scare the bejeebers out of DJ, after all.

    It’s about Darryl – it’s like he had such high hopes for us at the beginning of these comments and we gave his ideas the Animal House treatment. His disappointment is almost palpable.

    But of course, you always knew it was a longshot, DGH.

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  195. I don’t think Ken is distinguishing between the redeemed and unredeemed soul in speaking of the well ordered versus disordered soul. Order is foundational to the created order (pun intended) and some species of music (or any genus of culture) contribute to greater order while others to less ordeer or disoder.

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  196. Don, I think you’re right. But what if you factor in the fall to the idea of well ordered vs. disordered soul? Do those terms make sense in the light of original sin?

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  197. Darryl, are you kidding? I’ve probably been to as many operas as Alan. Two opera singers have sprung from my loins. I would never confuse a musical with an opera.

    I think you’re reading Perkins a bit too narrowly. See particularly the line at the end about justice.

    But I’m quite okay with seeing music as creational. Are you familiar with Resounding Truth by Jeremy Begbie?

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  198. Darryl, I think they do. Original sin does not eliminate the soul’s normative desire for order, but the teleological desire. The soul of a non-believer may be well ordered towards increasing human utility and power and making us “masters and possessors of nature” as Descartes put it. A disordered soul leads to just the opposite.

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  200. Don, so to be clear, are you saying that a well ordered soul — even musically speaking — comes only through the vanquishing of a sinful nature? Or is it possible to be musical and not regenerate? In which case, you have a 2k view of the soul. Musically it is well ordered but spiritually ordered is a different matter.

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  202. Darryl, yes I am saying the latter. But don’t you think the classical 2k view of temporal/eternal suffices to explain this?

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  203. Terry, yes Ken interviewed him twice. I found it to be extremely thought provoking. The second interview is on volume 94, part 2.

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  205. Don, so you agree with this: “Musically it is well ordered but spiritually ordered is a different matter.”

    Since I described this as a 2k view of the soul, why do you ask if 2k explains this?

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  206. Darryl, I am in agreement that it is possible to be musical and not regenerate. But I wouldn’t ‘t pit musical well ordering of the soul against spiritual well ordering of the soul. Rather, music, like other forms of culture, can be viewed from either a spiritual or eternal perspective on one hand or a material or temporal perspective on the other. The only difference in the playing or enjoying of music is purely internal and invisible to an outside observer.

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  207. Don, I had a hunch that you wouldn’t pit the one ordering of the soul against the other. That has been your general mo here. And so what do you say to someone who says I think I can be good (i.e., acceptable to God) and achieve a well-ordered soul by learning to appreciate music? Do you warn someone that that is a dangerous view? Or do you encourage them to press on?

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  208. Darryl, I would encourage him to continue to learn to appreciate music and give him a copy of the book “Resounding Truth” by Jeremy Begbie. I’d be interested in your thoughts about Begbie. You could download Ken’s interview with him on volume 94 at marshillaudio.org.

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  209. I don’t think that Begbie or Myers would agree with the notion that God’s command to subdue the earth is to be viewed as a task that Christ has fulfilled, but rather as a means of participating in the triune love and fellowship of Father, Son and Spirit. Begbie demonstrates how music reflects the triunity of God.

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