Church Reformed

The archbishop of San Francisco, Salvatore Cordileone (gotta love that name), is kicking up a lot of dust in Roman Catholic and California circles for the policies he has initiated within his parochial schools. Here‘s an example of what Cordileone has in mind:

We, the Archdiocesan High Schools, Acknowledge that some of our administrators, faculty or staff may not be Catholics and some may be Catholics who are struggling to achieve fidelity to some of the teachings of the Church, but we are all nevertheless called and required to stand as effective and visible professional participants and proponents of truly Catholic Education. As effective professionals in a Catholic School setting, we all – administrators, faculty and staff – are required and expected to avoid fostering confusion among the faithful and any dilution of the schools’ primary Catholic mission. Therefore, administrators, faculty and staff of any faith or of no faith, are expected to arrange and conduct their lives so as not to visibly contradict, undermine or deny these truths. To that end, further, we all must refrain from public support of any cause or issue that is explicitly or implicitly contrary to that which the Catholic Church holds to be true, both those truths known from revelation and those from the natural law. Those of us who consider themselves to be Catholics but who are not in a state of full assent to the teachings of the Church, moreover, must refrain from participation in organizations that call themselves “Catholic” but support or advocate issues or causes contrary to the teachings of the Church.

Some Roman Catholics wonder if Cordileone is in line with Pope France:

Cordileone suggests that he is in line with Pope Francis. In one way, he may be correct: It doesn’t appear that Francis is going to be changing any doctrine in the near future. But the whole world knows we have a pope who is focusing on Jesus’ message of love and inclusiveness and who has told Cordileone and his fellow culture warrior bishops to quit being obsessed with the sexuality issues. Our archbishop doesn’t even appear to be listening to his boss.

And if Pope Francis wants the church to come along side people who struggle with Roman Catholic teaching on marriage and sex, how is Cordileone helping the cause:

Cordileone stated that Catholics who endorse contrary views “create toxic confusion about our fundamental values.” But if Catholic couples, in the spirit of the pope’s recent comments, limit the number of children they have, is that toxic? If you are a little girl who is only here because science helped her mom and dad conceive her, is that toxic? If you are a 10 year old abused child and the only adoptive parents who want you are a loving, qualified gay couple, is that toxic? If you think that the civil rights of gays and lesbians should be protected, is that toxic?

Meanwhile, eight California legislators, mainly Democrat, are challenging the archbishop’s policies even as they raise questions about separation of church and state. In response, Cordileone wonders if the politicians would hire as campaign managers people who side with their political adversary in an election.

What may be the most provocative aspect of this controversy is what the archbishop’s reforms mean for the capacity of the Roman Catholic Church to achieve discipline. Isn’t this a case of an archbishop actually laying out policy in line with church teaching? If he can do it, why can’t others? And if others don’t follow Cordileone’s lead, why don’t Jason and the Callers reflect more on what this says about their communion where truth with a capital-T prevails (at least in theory)?

Advertisements

91 thoughts on “Church Reformed

  1. Jason allegedly wants to explore whether Humans can come up with a better story for why we are all here, than God can. I feel like I’m the only one who had a Jewish friend in second grade hand me Hitchhiker:

    “The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why, and Where phases. For instance, the first phase is characterized by the question ‘How can we eat?’ the second by the question ‘Why do we eat?’ and the third by the question ‘Where shall we have lunch?”

    Round and round we go.

    Like

  2. Though this is big news because it is unexpected and unheard of in recent decades, I do think there’s good reason for the Archbishop’s actions. The (non-parochial) schools that the Dutch Reformed immigrants have established are faced with the challenge of non-conforming staff members on a regular basis. The path of inclusion leads to a substantial demilitarized zone in which no one is permitted to address topics that were traditionally upheld by all Reformed people everywhere (chiefly infant baptism).

    The only way this is a separation of church and state issue is if the parochial schools are somehow government funded.

    Like

  3. Erik, of course Bryan affirms Jason. In finding Roman Catholicism, Jason has won the lottery of life. He can go and be as bad as he always wanted to be, and all he needs to do is go back and rely on that Roman “2nd Plank of Salvation” (or 3rd, or 4th, or Xth, or X+1th, etc.)”.

    The minister of Reconciliation [i.e., the “priest”, and only the “priest”] should always keep in mind that the sacrament has been instituted for men and women who are sinners. Therefore, barring manifest proof to the contrary, he [i.e., the “priest”] will receive the penitents who approach the confessional taking for granted their good will to be reconciled with the merciful God, a good will that is born, although in different degrees, of a contrite and humbled heart (Psalm 50:19) …

    Never might that Jason might find himself “suddenly cut off, and that without remedy” (Proverbs 29:1). Even if he doesn’t get to confession, so long as some priest gets to him with Last Rites while his dead body is still somewhat above room temperature, he’s fine! (I heard a priest say this — and that makes it infallibly true as “special revelation” — (principled means and all).

    So don’t fret for Jason – he has found what he’s been looking for, for a long, long time – a “free pass” to hedonism.

    Like

  4. Mark:

    See http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a5.htm#1499 and ff.

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a5.htm#1499

    Couple of snippets:

    …the sacrament may be repeated. …

    Only priests (bishops and presbyters) are ministers of the Anointing of the Sick.

    This assistance from the Lord by the power of his Spirit is meant to lead the sick person to healing of the soul, but also of the body if such is God’s will. Furthermore, “if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”…

    Like

  5. CWU:

    Between your stellar post on Super Bowl Sunday, and Chris’s today on the NeoCalvinist thread

    The regulars here are a riot and the interaction is all over the map from very helpful and insightful to down right insane – but you already know that. I love it.

    I can safely say things are looking on the up and up.

    Haven’t felt this good since I scored a par on that nasty hole 14 a year or two ago here my home course. Things are allllright, my brother.

    Peace.

    Like

  6. Meanwhile, eight California legislators, mainly Democrat, are challenging the archbishop’s policies even as they raise questions about separation of church and state.

    Typical Democrat anti-religous aggression. Hosanna-Tabor, Obama lost unanimously.

    http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/archbishop-attacked-over-catholic-schools

    However, more chilling is this

    Earlier this week, after decades of dissent on many Catholic college campuses, the federal government—through the NLRB—has stepped in to assess whether the employees of Catholic colleges and universities are actually contributing to the religious mission of these institutions by “performing religious functions.” This is a new standard for evaluating religious objections to federal board oversight that was implemented in a unionization decision in December at Pacific Lutheran University. The NLRB knows that if the faculty actually uphold and advance Catholic teachings, these colleges may be viewed by the Courts as performing a religious function. But, it is likely that the labor board knew otherwise—and on January 6, 2015, the NLRB issued a “Certification of Representation” allowing adjunct professors and lecturers at St. Mary’s College of Moraga, California, to join the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). This ruling by the NLRB that employees of Catholic colleges are not expected to uphold Catholic values and doctrine and advance the college’s Catholic mission is an important development in Catholic higher education.

    Perhaps you’ll get your Machen up and get off the sidelines for a change. You may not be interested in politics, but the Obamaoids are quite interested in you.

    Like

  7. Tom’s quote – “This ruling by the NLRB that employees of Catholic colleges are not expected to uphold Catholic values and doctrine and advance the college’s Catholic mission is an important development in Catholic higher education.”

    Erik – But if even the faculty is not upholding Catholic values and doctrine the NLRB may be correct.

    Like

  8. Teachers in San Francisco may need to teach Roman Catholic doctrine, but apparently doctors of the Church do not need to teach orthodox Christology?

    On February 21, Pope Francis announced his decision to make St. Gregory of Narek (950-1003) a Doctor of the Church. Once again, Pope Francis has caught us off guard and now many people are scrambling to figure out who St. Gregory was and what the implications of the new honor bestowed upon him are. One key question that is arising is: was St. Gregory a Catholic?

    The short answer to this question seems to be no. He was a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is a non-Chalcedonian Church (sometimes referred to somewhat pejoratively as a Monophysite Church), because of its rejection of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon.

    Like

  9. If the Pope can do this for an Armenian, the Free Church moderator can do the same for a liberal Protestant:

    2) Christianity makes a phenomenal difference. This is clearly seen in Selma. Luther King was a clergyman and the fight against racism was often led by Christians. And with good reason. The Bible clearly teaches that all human beings are made in the image of God. In Sunday school I remain being ‘indoctrinated’ with the belief that ‘red, and yellow, black and white, all are precious in his sight”, long before being anti-racist became the fashion of the day. Although human sin has distorted that image and resulted in the gross sin of racism, Christ came to restore that image. He died that we might be one. As Paul says, in Christ there is no Barbarian, Scythian, slave or free. “For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility….” (Ephesians 2:14 – NIV).

    Pick cherries.

    Like

  10. Andrew Buckingham
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 7:57 am | Permalink
    Tom, who is on the sideline here?

    Against such tyranny, I do cherish some hope that Jews and Christians, Roman Catholics and Protestants, if they are lovers of liberty, may present a united front. https://oldlife.org/2009/12/machen-on-roman-catholic-indoctrination/

    Are you in, or out?

    Way in.

    In fact my point is that Machen was too. Our blog host is MIA. In the least, religious freedom is where the rubber of the one kingdom meets the road of the other.

    Like

  11. The Francis effect:

    Under pressure from his Catholic schools community, the archbishop of the San Francisco archdiocese is re-wording strict guidelines he proposed for teachers that would require them to reject homosexuality, use of contraception, and other “evil” behavior.

    Most significantly, Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone said he is dropping an effort to designate high school teachers as “ministers,” which, under a 2012 US Supreme Court ruling, would have eliminated them from government-mandated employee protections by placing them solely under Church control.

    In an hour-long meeting with The San Francisco Chronicle’s editorial board, Cordileone said he is forming a committee of theology teachers from the San Francisco Archdiocese’s four high schools to go over his proposed teacher guidelines. The committee, he said, will “recommend to me an expanded draft” and “adjust the language to make the statements more readily understandable to a wider leadership.”

    Like

  12. Cordileone said he is forming a committee of theology teachers from the San Francisco Archdiocese’s four high schools to go over his proposed teacher guidelines

    They stole that (committee forming as the solution) from us!!

    (Insert shruggie here).

    Like

  13. Erik,

    JGM makes salient points about philosophers (himselfntrsined that way in undergrad) in Hoe Did God Create Man?.

    I noted (all about) my objection on 9marks as well, that part 3 with TKNY.

    Auf wiedersehen.

    Like

  14. Sorry for the typos, meant “himself trained” and “How” and “(all about) me”

    This is what the mouse says:

    In fact, Machen earned a Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy from Johns Hopkins University. In 1902, he simultaneously studied for a Master’s in Philosophy there and for a degree in Theology at Princeton. In 1905, his Theology studies took him to Germany, where the Modernism taught drove him towards a more orthodox Protestant position.

    I’m out.

    Like

  15. D. G. Hart
    Posted February 28, 2015 at 6:40 pm | Permalink
    vd, t is in.

    Just dropped in to see what condition your condition is in, Darryl. Outside your marriage, I’m your soulmate, not your Ding Ding people. What were the odds that it turned out we’re the same age from the same hometown and you write about all things I find as important as you do? Dude.

    What a great tune. Kenny Rogers as lead singer of the phony but convincingly psychedelic “Just Dropped In (To See What Condition My Condition Was In)”. If you know your music history, just like the equally phony [and better] “Incense and Peppermints.” Written as a joke by professional musicians.

    As for your condition, your blog is getting more anti-Catholic by the day, post after post more obsessed with the Catholic Church. The rising percentage is graphable. A good sign. You’re Billy Bob in “The Apostle,” just trying to find a Robert Duvall willing to take the time and effort to kick your ass. Bryan, Jason, the Pope, they’re all too busy.

    Because I’ve learned so much about what Catholicism actually believes and teaches–double-checking your frequent distortions of it–as with Calvinism I’ve become quite a student and apologist for it. So much so that when a Reformed friend asked me questions about Catholicism I was able to give her the accurate poop.

    Her Reformed doubts assuaged, she undertook the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults for those who wish to convert to the Catholic faith, and tells me she’ll “swim the Tiber” on Easter Sunday. Her husband–an evangelical missionary–is accompanying her to Mass.

    Like you he’s invested up to his ears–his career–in Protestantism. To change would be to lose everything, and for you, your academic career as well. You’re professional Protestants.

    But Jim’s cool. He does not mock her, doesn’t even try to dissuade her. In fact, surprisingly enough, he’s been accompanying her in her journey, in the parts that he can.

    There’s something about “orthodox” and “Presbyterian” that’s oxymoronic. Once you establish an “orthodoxy,” you’re not “Presbyterian”–Protestant–anymore. All you did was counterfeit Catholicism, and even if you make a hit record out of it, it’s bogus.

    Cheers, Billy Bob.

    Like

  16. D. G. Hart
    Posted March 2, 2015 at 6:08 am | Permalink
    vd, t, do you understand how many Roman Catholics would be appalled that you’re counseling prospectives?

    Andrew Buckingham
    Posted March 2, 2015 at 11:45 am | Permalink
    TVD,

    You are a hoot.

    TWO Billy Bobs. You can’t stay away.

    My friend stopped by and read how you congratulate each other and disrespect the sincere.

    I read the comments in a link you provided. Those are horrid people.

    Called to Crabbiness. I’m starting to think that The “Elect” is another name for one of the circles of Hell. They think they’re in heaven, and God in His mercy lets them think so.

    Like

  17. Coincidence?

    The auxiliary’s move south intriguingly coincides with a tense period in San Francisco, as Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone’s planned addition of doctrinal and morality clauses to the teachers’ contract and policy handbook at the archdiocese’s high schools has garnered loud protests in the famously liberal enclave (at left, the archbishop – himself a San Diego native – and his auxiliary are shown praying the Rosary at a 2013 pro-life rally). Yet even as McElroy’s new assignment lacks the pallium that comes with the helm of California’s first metropolitan church, San Diego’s fold is more than twice his hometown’s size.

    The third appointment Francis has made to date to a US diocese of a million or more – after Bernie Hebda to Newark in 2013 and, of course, Blase Cupich to Chicago last September – McElroy’s progressive leanings in the border post could augur a clash with a local political sensibility where Republicans run strong, above all thanks to the presence of several military installations and retirees of the services who remain in the area. (In a 2011 America piece, the incoming bishop lamented what he termed the US’ policy of “war without end.”) On a more pointed angle, as the nominee has arguably been the strongest voice among the Stateside bishops in echoing Pope Francis’ calls for a “poor church” and warnings against income inequality, sending him to the diocese that’s home to Mitt Romney’s recently-completed “dream house” featuring a car elevator is a storyline all in itself.

    Like

  18. AB
    Posted March 4, 2015 at 8:43 pm | Permalink
    And besides, you cheat.

    moi?

    Infra @ link above

    Calvinists, however, put a strict limitation on the occurrences of such words as “all,” “every” and “world.” They argue that these words refer merely to a general inclusion of Gentiles as well as Jews. Frequently, they will interpret the texts as meaning “all KINDS of men,” or “all men without distinction, but not all without exception.”

    Seldom are they compelled here by the context or grammar. Their interpretations are driven by forgone theological conclusions, particularly their a priori belief that only some will ultimately be redeemed.

    “Indeed, God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” (John 3:17)

    “Therefore, just as one man’s [Adam’s] trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s [Christ’s] act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.” Rom. 5:18

    “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.” (Rom. 11:32)

    “For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

    “He [God] has made known to us the mystery of his will … as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.” (Eph. 1:9, 10)

    “Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:9-10)

    “… through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.” (Col. 19-20)

    &c.

    AB
    Posted March 4, 2015 at 8:52 pm | Permalink
    I would never use the footwedge (emoticon).

    Fore!

    Heh heh. I had to look that one up.

    http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Foot-Wedge

    Like

  19. your church showed up in my new favorite tv show last night:

    Frank later visits a church where he has donated a stained glass window imported from Germany. He requests that the priest, Father Lewandowski, set up a meeting with Senator Barbara Mikulski for him to discuss the difficulties at the docks. Major Valchek delivers his own window to the church on behalf of Polish police officers and is angry that the dock union was given the location in the church that was originally reserved for the Police Department. source

    streaming free for amazon prime members, giddy up!

    Like

  20. AB
    Posted March 4, 2015 at 11:39 pm | Permalink
    your church showed up in my new favorite tv show last night

    I don’t even have a church according to Darryl and the Crabbyniks. Do you even read this blog? Hell, do you even read what you write 5 minutes after you hit “Post Comment”?

    Not that I blame you. I only do it out of love.

    Like

  21. Tom,

    Maybe your next TV gig can be on EWTN’S “Coming Home”.

    Is the Mrs. on board?

    Was playing “Caddyshack” trivia on Quiz Up last night, but she didn’t come up.

    If anyone wants to play me in any category, get the app and challenge me. I play under my real name.

    Like

  22. Tom, yes, I read it all, and I even your little pearls of wisdom:

    Because I’ve learned so much about what Catholicism actually believes and teaches–double-checking your frequent distortions of it–as with Calvinism I’ve become quite a student and apologist for it. So much so that when a Reformed friend asked me questions about Catholicism I was able to give her the accurate poop.

    If you think you are accomplishing something with comments like that one, by all means, continue. You yourself told KW to stay away from DGH’s little spider web interweb game you percieve this blog to be.

    Yes indeed I read these, again, I could post a lot more. And link too. But the antagonists do all the work out here, it only helps boost DGH’s ratings.

    Keep posting! Be well.

    Peace.

    Like

  23. I read the comments in a link you provided. Those are horrid people.

    Good grief, Tom — living in Cali has made you soft and sensitive. And who are you whining to — the Dowager Countess from Downton Abbey?

    Like

  24. “Those are horrid people”, Tom’s friend said as he took a break from painting his nails to pet his miniature Schnauzer and smile lovingly at his husband.

    “Do you need another martini, Tom?”

    “No thanks, Lance. I’m good,” Tom replied.

    Like

  25. plus, doesn’t tom’s “church” condemn Origenism still?

    The Fifth Ecumenical Council addressed what was called “The Three Chapters”[63] and opposed a form of Origenism which truly had nothing to do with Origen and Origenist views. In fact, Popes Vigilius (537–555), Pelagius I (556–61), Pelagius II (579–90), and Gregory the Great (590–604) were only aware that the Fifth Council specifically dealt with the Three Chapters and make no mention of Origenism or Universalism, nor spoke as if they knew of its condemnation – even though Gregory the Great opposed the belief of universalism.[13]source

    The church of Tom – he does and says what he wants.

    Catch me if you can, yo.

    Like

  26. Tom,

    I hadn’t thought much about Roman Catholics since the week that one said “fuck”, a 2nd celebrated the first saying “fuck”, a 3rd made up lies about me, and a 4th recycled his child & gay porn in front of me.

    Thanks for reminding me that the superior paradigm does not necessarily preclude RC’s from being amoral or immoral d-bags.

    Your fixation on being Darryl’s best friend hasn’t crossed over to the dark side, has it? We’re overdue for a middle-of-the-night drunken rant from you.

    Like

  27. If not condemn, RCC’s don’t endorse Universalism as Tom does here.

    Like Erik says, how do you fight a guy with “no there, there.”

    If your Romish Tom,come out, and go to mass. Right?

    Like

  28. It’s narcissism, pure and simple.

    What else explains the ability to be a complete ass to people for years on end, while at the same time being thin-skinned and easily wounded?

    Like

  29. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20025568

    Diseases and Conditions
    Narcissistic personality disorder

    By Mayo Clinic Staff

    Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that’s vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

    A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. You may be generally unhappy and disappointed when you’re not given the special favors or admiration you believe you deserve. Others may not enjoy being around you, and you may find your relationships unfulfilling.

    Narcissistic personality disorder treatment is centered around talk therapy (psychotherapy).

    Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders. Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways, limiting their ability to function in relationships and other areas of their life, such as work or school.

    If you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may feel a sense of entitlement — and when you don’t receive special treatment, you may become impatient or angry. You may insist on having “the best” of everything — for instance, the best car, athletic club or medical care.

    At the same time, you have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation. To feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make yourself appear superior. Or you may feel depressed and moody because you fall short of perfection.

    Many experts use the criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association, to diagnose mental conditions. This manual is also used by insurance companies to reimburse for treatment.

    DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:
    •Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance

    •Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it

    •Exaggerating your achievements and talents

    •Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate

    •Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people

    •Requiring constant admiration

    •Having a sense of entitlement

    •Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations

    •Taking advantage of others to get what you want

    •Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others

    •Being envious of others and believing others envy you

    •Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner

    Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence, it’s not the same. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal and value yourself more than you value others.

    When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may not want to think that anything could be wrong — doing so wouldn’t fit with your self-image of power and perfection. People with narcissistic personality disorder are most likely to seek treatment when they develop symptoms of depression — often because of perceived criticisms or rejections.

    If you recognize aspects of your personality that are common to narcissistic personality disorder or you’re feeling overwhelmed by sadness, consider reaching out to a trusted doctor or mental health provider. Getting the right treatment can help make your life more rewarding and enjoyable.

    It’s not known what causes narcissistic personality disorder. As with other mental disorders, the cause is likely complex. Narcissistic personality disorder may be linked to:

    •Mismatches in parent-child relationships with either excessive pampering or excessive criticism

    •Genetics or psychobiology — the connection between the brain and behavior and thinking

    Narcissistic personality disorder is rare. During childhood and teen years, children may show traits of narcissism, but this may simply be typical of their age and doesn’t mean they’ll go on to develop narcissistic personality disorder.

    Narcissistic personality disorder affects more males than females, and it often begins in the teens or early adulthood.

    Although the cause of narcissistic personality disorder isn’t known, some researchers think that in biologically vulnerable children, parenting styles that overemphasize the child’s specialness and criticize fears and failures may be partially responsible. The child may hide low self-esteem by developing a superficial sense of perfection and behavior that shows a need for constant admiration.

    Complications of narcissistic personality disorder, if left untreated, can include:

    •Relationship difficulties

    •Problems at work or school

    •Depression

    •Drug or alcohol abuse

    •Suicidal thoughts or behavior

    Like

  30. Back to the substance of what Tom was saying above (as opposed to the ever-grating style), it’s possible to interpret the “broader” passages of Scripture when it comes to salvation in light of the “narrower” passages, but is it really possible to do the opposite?

    Tom notes that Calvinists interpret passages like John 3:16 as saying that “world” does not mean “everyone in the world” (which he is correct about – we do say that), but where is the flip side of Arminian (or Universalist) attempts to explain away passages that clearly point to election?

    The Canons of Dordt deal with all Tom’s objections. Where is the Arminian or Universalist equivalent to the Canons?

    Like

  31. Pretty much any attempt I’ve seen entail Arminians emoting, talking about how that would not be fair, saying they couldn’t worship a God who would do that, etc. etc. It’s always way more about the Arminian’s feelings than a serious attempt to exegete Scripture.

    Like

  32. Erik, the Canons are responses to the original Arminian points of doctrine–there was no rebuttal. It probably won’t satisfy an anti-Calvinist like Tom, but Calvinism has always been perfectly content to say it’s all without distinction (Jew and Gentile), not all without exception (head for head).

    Like

  33. Zrim – the Canons are responses to the original Arminian points of doctrine–there was no rebuttal.

    Erik – The Arminians presumably went off to pout, grouse, and pick daisies…

    Like

  34. AB
    Posted March 5, 2015 at 10:10 am | Permalink
    If not condemn, RCC’s don’t endorse Universalism as Tom does here.

    Like Erik says, how do you fight a guy with “no there, there.”

    That’s all Called to Crabbiness people do, fight. Look at this whole page of attack. You still don’t get it.

    As for Catholicism,

    1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost : ‘Lord, let me never be parted from you.’ If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God ‘desires all men to be saved’ (1 Tim 2:4) and that for him ‘all things are possible’ (Mt 19:26).

    I learn so much about Catholicism double-checking Darryl and the Crabbymen. Whatever they say about it, it’s usually the opposite.

    Like

  35. Tom,

    Desiring that all men be saved is not the same thing as saying all men are saved or will be saved.

    Although, If the Pope has the keys to the kingdom, why doesn’t he just declare all men saved?

    If he can hand out indulgences, why not hand out lots & lots of them. Why be stingy?

    Like

  36. If Tom is seriously going to become a Catholic apologist, the learning curve is going to be brutal.

    Jason tried before deciding to settle for a life of “meh” instead.

    Like

  37. Jason’s latest is transforming the book about finding the superior paradigm against his will into a book about how it’s o.k. to be a sucky Catholic. Kind of a Stewart Smalley memoir for the religious slacker set.

    Like

  38. Tom,

    Have you ever considered commenting here without leading with a put down or a statement that builds yourself up?

    Or does your emotional state of being perpetually 12 preclude that?

    Like

  39. Bishops at odds. The pope as revolutionary and Cordileone as reactionary:

    To be fair, none of the archbishop’s modifications represents novel Catholic teaching. But in the context of an employer’s guidance to employees, it was a chilling directive — for Catholic teachers particularly — to “conform their hearts, minds and consciences, as well as their public and private behavior” to tenets of church teaching that include “chastity” and “abstinence from all sexual intimacy outside of marriage.” Directives included refraining from “gravely evil” acts like “masturbation, fornication, the viewing of pornography and homosexual relations.” . . .

    San Francisco’s recent controversy threw into stark relief the challenges that make Pope Francis’ leadership so vitally important at this moment in our church’s history. Progress is desperately needed to renew our church’s mission to serve the world rather than scold it and to emphasize teaching that young Catholic consciences will recognize as legitimately Christlike.

    One can see hopeful signs — and perhaps even the Holy Spirit at work. It was there, I think, in the principled reaction of San Francisco’s Catholic high school students last month. It was there, too, in some initial steps by the Synod of Bishops on the family, which Pope Francis first announced in 2013 to re-examine many of the very issues in contention last month.

    Jason and the Callers continue to live in denial.

    Like

  40. Called to this communion?

    Here’s what I was able to dig up on a few of the wealthy San Franciscans who signed the letter. It’s a little fishy that these “concerned Catholics” have consistently contributed to politicians who radically oppose Church teaching. See what else you can find … and post in the comments! We can’t let them get away with this.

    Charles Geschke (chairman of Adobe Systems and previously head of the Board of Trustees at the University of San Francisco)

    – Donated over $200,000 to the Democratic Congressional campaign committee

    – $40,000 in support of the Democratic National Committee

    – $2,300 in support of Nancy Pelosi, who claims to be Catholic but openly supports abortion

    – $4,000 in support of John Kerry, another Catholic who supports abortion

    Clint Reilly (political consultant and businessman)

    – Contributed $25,000 to the Democratic Congressional Campaign in 2006

    – $28,500 to the Democratic Congressional Campaign in 2008.

    – $5,000 in support of Barack Obama, who has consistently opposed religious liberty

    – $4,600 to Nancy Pelosi

    – $5,000 to the Democratic National Committee in 2014

    Lou Giraudo (former city commissioner and business executive)

    -Contributed to over $24,000 to Nancy Pelosi

    – $6,000 to Dianne Feinstein

    – $4,300 to Barbara Boxer

    But they are one and we aren’t.

    Like

  41. The plot thickens:

    Here in the United States we are blessed with many bishops who join you in bearing witness to these profound and indispensable truths. Even in the face of social and economic pressure on them to yield or go silent, they boldly and joyously proclaim the Church’s teachings on marriage and chastity. None has been more fearless or ardent in upholding these beautiful and liberating teachings than Salvatore Cordileone, the Archbishop of San Francisco.

    Faithful Catholics in his archdiocese and throughout our country have been edified by his labors—particularly those addressed to ensuring that the Catholic schools under his care teach and model fidelity to Catholic doctrine in all matters of faith and morals. Unsurprisingly, however, these labors have drawn the antagonism of many who despise the Church’s moral teachings, especially those concerning marriage and sexual morality.

    This morning, a group of people published an open letter to you in a San Francisco newspaper urging you to remove Archbishop Cordileone from his office. They identify themselves as Catholics and plead with you to send them a new archbishop that will be true to what they describe as “our values.” But their values, unlike the values proclaimed and upheld by Archbishop Cordileone, are not the values of the Catholic faith. Their complaint against the Archbishop finally comes down to his refusal to bow down before the values of contemporary secularist sexual morality and gender ideology. For this, however, he should be applauded and encouraged, not condemned, much less ousted.

    Like

  42. Would Cordileone be able to get a church job in Germany?

    With potentially far-reaching consequences, the bishops of Germany have voted by more than a two-thirds majority to relax Church labor laws to allow civilly remarried employees or those living in same-sex unions to retain their jobs with Church institutions.

    In an announcement Tuesday, the German bishops’ conference in Bonn said the majority of bishops had ruled that immediate dismissal will only be a “last resort” for employees who are divorced and subsequently “remarry” or those living in a registered partnership.

    Until now, such employees were required to be dismissed from such employment, although the rules were often ignored. The Church is the second-largest employer in Germany.
    “An automatic dismissal may now in future be ruled as out of the question,” said Alois Glück, president of the Central Committee of German Catholics, the country’s top lay Catholic organization. From now on, he said, any public violation of loyalty to Church teachings must be examined on a case-by-case basis.

    The amendment, when enacted by a bishop, explicitly overturns a 2002 ecclesiastical law, which stipulated that all Church employees need to be loyal to the magisterium. Glück said the change “represents a substantial paradigm shift in the application of ecclesiastical law,” adding that the new regulation will “open the way” for decisions to be made in accordance with “human justice.”

    Like

  43. Why is San Francisco sounding like disputes among Baptists at First Baptist, Montgomery?

    The archbishop said the schools were doing a good job on transmitting the social teaching of the Church and encouraging activism and outreach to the poor, but they needed to present moral doctrine in a more complete and compelling way.

    Eva Muntean, a lead organizer of the Walk for Life West Coast, an annual event that draws 50,000 pro-lifers, echoes that judgment.

    She joined with local activists to launch an event that gave Catholic families a chance to show their support. On May 16, the Archbishop Family Support Picnic drew about 500 Catholics of all ages to San Francisco’s Sue Bierman Park.

    “After the negative and cruel attacks against our archbishop over what he was trying to do to make our schools Catholic, I thought, ‘What better way to address it than to hold a family picnic?’” Muntean told the Register.

    “We didn’t want to do a rally or a talk; we just wanted to show support,” she said of the picnic, which featured balloons with the motto “Thank You, ABC!” and drew lay Catholics as well as women religious and priests.

    ‘One Mad Mom’ Supports Archbishop

    In April, a full-page ad in the San Francisco Chronicle asking Pope Francis to remove Archbishop Cordileone, and attacking a local pastor for his boys-only altar server program, turned the dispute into a national story.

    Muntean said she was deeply disturbed by the publication of the Chronicle ad, which featured the names of 100 “prominent” Catholics.

    “What angered me most was that they presumed to speak for all Catholics in San Francisco,” she said.

    “Many of us support the archbishop and what he wants to do. We wanted to get our voices heard.”

    She said that grassroots “word of mouth” helped to publicize the picnic, and she had not turned to pastors as a group for help because some had publicly spoken out against the archbishop from the pulpit.

    While Muntean helped to organize the family picnic, she also launched a website for supporters of the archbishop and pointed the Register to a new blog, “One Mad Mom,” which is also designed to counter negative publicity about the archbishop generated by his opponents.

    Back in February, SF Weekly reported that Sam Singer, a public-relations operative with a reputation for aggressive tactics, had been hired to launch a media campaign against the archbishop.

    “Soon, Singer will steer the archbishop’s already unpopular anti-LGBT slam into a Singer-defined narrative. Right or wrong, [Archbishop] Cordileone probably doesn’t have a prayer,” opined the column, after describing the first installment of Singer’s dramatic campaign: an Ash Wednesday protest that drew media coverage across California.

    “As to how a ragtag bunch of teachers could afford Singer’s services, [Singer] answered, ‘Concerned parents are footing the bill.’”

    Armed with that news, Muntean and other supporters of the archbishop have been upset, but not surprised, by the string of protests and media statements that have marked the controversy and shaped local coverage of the conflict.

    “Sam Singer was hired to unseat a bishop,” Muntean noted, while adding that she has no intention of adopting similar tactics.
    “When we organized the family picnic, we wanted to take a mellower approach to let people know we are here.”

    Like

  44. More reasons to read Boniface:

    Recently we posted an article here in which, among other things, we noted that doves being released by the pope from St. Peter’s were frequently killed by crows or other birds almost as soon as they were released.

    In 2012, Pope Benedict XVI attempted to release a dove as a prayer for world peace. The dove refused to fly away and instead returned to Benedict’s window. The same thing occurred in 2011, as well as 2010.

    On January 29, 2013, Pope Benedict XVI released two doves from St. Peter’s as part of the “Caravan of Peace” celebration on Holocaust Remembrance Day. The doves were supposed to represent peace. Both were viciously attacked by seagulls and barely managed to escape.

    Enter Pope Francis. Following the turmoil in the Ukraine, Pope Francis and two Ukrainian children released two doves symbolizing peace in January of 2014. The doves were immediately attacked by a seagull, but managed to escape. However, after escaping from the gull they were set upon by a crow! Again, both managed to escape, though severely disoriented and somewhat mauled.

    Anyone who has been to Europe knows that in places like St. Peter’s where there are lots of tourists there are an insane amount of pigeons and seagulls. There is a perfectly natural explanation for these events; there’s just a lot of mean birds around.

    However, one cannot but be struck by the irony of it all. A Church, increasingly caught up in the affairs of the world, sets loose doves as prayers for world peace – and those doves are brutally attacked by predatory birds – birds which in the parables of Jesus represent the devil and his demons. A Church that increasingly compromises with the world and in many places refuses to make a clear stand on her moral teaching, especially in the wake of homosexual militancy.

    But meanwhile, we have an embattled archbishop in San Francisco who, whatever his previous faults, is courageously standing up for the Church’s moral teaching and taking tremendous flak for it. He has been offered zero public support from the Vatican.

    Why don’t vd, t, vd, c, Susan, Mermaid, and MichaelTX see what Boniface sees?

    Like

  45. If you can get past the confusing relationship that the LCMS is trying to have with Rome, they compare the situation on the Cardinal Burke and the non-Francine guys (I assume Cordileone would be in this same camp) to Luther in 1517!

    http://issuesetc.org/2015/06/05/3-the-christian-liturgy-and-the-results-of-vatican-ii-pr-david-petersen-6515/

    The good stuff starts at 25:09 and the kicker is at 27:18

    I guess it’s nice to hear the LCMS (which is much more friendly with Rome than OL) say the same thing about Rome as OL.

    Like

  46. It’s tough to police a denomination when all you need is a baptismal certificate to claim membership, and claiming to be part of it with no further questions asked.

    It’s probably more of a way of live up here.

    Like

  47. Do parochial schools even matter? Or are Calvinist day schools the gateway drug to assimilated Roman Catholic schools?

    The story about your friends pulling their kids out of Catholic school hit particularly close to home as my wife and I have reached a breaking point with our parish school. Our seven year old daughter has had nearly the identical experience as your friends’ 10 year old. We are very orthodox, but it seems like most of the school families are cultural comformists, or as a previous commenter indicated more MTD than Catholic. I know most of these kids are being exposed to the full range of bile which our popular culture spews. Our 7 year old daughter has not yet made her first communion, but already she has had a male classmate give a note telling her, “I like your ass,” and has overheard a male classmate telling the girls in the class that he played naked with a girl in his neighborhood. This is concerning enough although I would guess this 7 year old boy doesn’t understand what he’s saying.

    More disturbing is the garbage that has come home from the school library where ostensibly there should be some adult oversight as to what the kids can take out or what should be in a Catholic school library to begin with. We’ve not seen anything like the book you mentioned in your earlier post, but we’ve seen books that glorify all manner of disrespectful behavior, bathroom humor, bullying, mocking people including teachers for weight, hairstyle, dress, etc. Our children are no longer allowed to check books out of the school library because we simply cannot trust the staff to provide appropriate guidance.

    There is another factor at work with many Catholic Schools that has not been mentioned and that is the simple fact that so many of them, ours included, are struggling just to survive. They’re struggling to survive because so many Catholic parents, the vast majority at our middle class suburban parish, send their kids to public schools. Our school is so desperate to increase enrollment that they water down the faith to attract anyone who might be looking for an alternative to public schools of uneven quality. We just had our annual Catholic Schools week open house this weekend, and my wife overheard perhaps the very best and most devout teachers on the faculty, someone who is extremely active in the parish and whom we know to be very committed to her faith tell a prospective, non-Catholic parent that while the school is Catholic it’s not, “overly Catholic.” I cannot tell you how dispiriting this is especially since I’m far from certain that the principal and other teachers are as devout as this teacher.

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s